Everything else should be tweaked but these minimum numbers will help you apply pressure to the opponent while keeping your lifetotal high enough to use spells like Read the Bones and Anguished Unmaking.
Edit:
I think Moving towards a more midrange style deck with Liliana, Heretical Healer would be great as it adds another lifegain tool and if you can get it to flip consistently it adds to the gameplan.
Has anyone considered maybe putting 1-2 Alhammarret's Archive somewhere in the 60? It seems like such a good control card and has great synergy with lifelink and Read the Bones or Painful Truths. Just not sure if it's worth giving up a removal spell or not.
That's a good question. For a while there were B/W control lists in standard but I think the multi-color decks were too strong for it.
For example there's a list on MTGTOP8
It seems like this thread is slowly evolving to those type of decks. They're lists with a ton of removal, plus Gideon, Ob Nixilis and Sorin. The main difference is Westvale Abbey, which has some synergy with tokens.
Yeah, that's not all what happened. In terms of four color midrange decks, the BW list piloted by Hoogland ran circles around them. Ob Nixilis and Secure the Wastes were just generally too strong. I stopped running it after top 8ing an SCG Classic with it when Rally became more popular. The matchup was winnable, but the deck lacked wincons that could close the game out quickly enough. I didn't like having a matchup where I barely finished one game, which made the sideboard less effective insofar as you couldn't have access to it for two games without being unwilling to just scoop game 1.
Based on what I ran before, this is what I plan on testing:
Sideboard would include access to Duress, Stasis Snare, Flaying Tendrils, an additional Languish, and maybe Infinite Obliteration. You basically beat the ramp deck by making them discard all of their payoff spells. Anguished Unmaking helps against Ugin and everything else you can just kill with your normal spells.
The deck loses a lot of its life gain, which makes Anguished Unmaking hard to run but still probably worth it. That being said between Seeker and Solemn Visitor the last deck had a ton of life gain to mitigate Read, Ob, and Cave life loss over the course of a long game. Oath seems fine, but could probably be Hangarback Walker instead. I am also considering Dead Weight as a way of killing Jace and triggering Delirium. And the fourth Gideon might be one too many.
That's a good question. For a while there were B/W control lists in standard but I think the multi-color decks were too strong for it.
For example there's a list on MTGTOP8
It seems like this thread is slowly evolving to those type of decks. They're lists with a ton of removal, plus Gideon, Ob Nixilis and Sorin. The main difference is Westvale Abbey, which has some synergy with tokens.
Yeah, that's not all what happened. In terms of four color midrange decks, the BW list piloted by Hoogland ran circles around them. Ob Nixilis and Secure the Wastes were just generally too strong. I stopped running it after top 8ing an SCG Classic with it when Rally became more popular. The matchup was winnable, but the deck lacked wincons that could close the game out quickly enough. I didn't like having a matchup where I barely finished one game, which made the sideboard less effective insofar as you couldn't have access to it for two games without being unwilling to just scoop game 1.
Based on what I ran before, this is what I plan on testing:
Sideboard would include access to Duress, Stasis Snare, Flaying Tendrils, an additional Languish, and maybe Infinite Obliteration. You basically beat the ramp deck by making them discard all of their payoff spells. Anguished Unmaking helps against Ugin and everything else you can just kill with your normal spells.
The deck loses a lot of its life gain, which makes Anguished Unmaking hard to run but still probably worth it. That being said between Seeker and Solemn Visitor the last deck had a ton of life gain to mitigate Read, Ob, and Cave life loss over the course of a long game. Oath seems fine, but could probably be Hangarback Walker instead. I am also considering Dead Weight as a way of killing Jace and triggering Delirium. And the fourth Gideon might be one too many.
That's a good question. For a while there were B/W control lists in standard but I think the multi-color decks were too strong for it.
For example there's a list on MTGTOP8
It seems like this thread is slowly evolving to those type of decks. They're lists with a ton of removal, plus Gideon, Ob Nixilis and Sorin. The main difference is Westvale Abbey, which has some synergy with tokens.
Yeah, that's not all what happened. In terms of four color midrange decks, the BW list piloted by Hoogland ran circles around them. Ob Nixilis and Secure the Wastes were just generally too strong. I stopped running it after top 8ing an SCG Classic with it when Rally became more popular. The matchup was winnable, but the deck lacked wincons that could close the game out quickly enough. I didn't like having a matchup where I barely finished one game, which made the sideboard less effective insofar as you couldn't have access to it for two games without being unwilling to just scoop game 1.
Based on what I ran before, this is what I plan on testing:
Sideboard would include access to Duress, Stasis Snare, Flaying Tendrils, an additional Languish, and maybe Infinite Obliteration. You basically beat the ramp deck by making them discard all of their payoff spells. Anguished Unmaking helps against Ugin and everything else you can just kill with your normal spells.
The deck loses a lot of its life gain, which makes Anguished Unmaking hard to run but still probably worth it. That being said between Seeker and Solemn Visitor the last deck had a ton of life gain to mitigate Read, Ob, and Cave life loss over the course of a long game. Oath seems fine, but could probably be Hangarback Walker instead. I am also considering Dead Weight as a way of killing Jace and triggering Delirium. And the fourth Gideon might be one too many.
That's a good question. For a while there were B/W control lists in standard but I think the multi-color decks were too strong for it.
For example there's a list on MTGTOP8
It seems like this thread is slowly evolving to those type of decks. They're lists with a ton of removal, plus Gideon, Ob Nixilis and Sorin. The main difference is Westvale Abbey, which has some synergy with tokens.
Yeah, that's not all what happened. In terms of four color midrange decks, the BW list piloted by Hoogland ran circles around them. Ob Nixilis and Secure the Wastes were just generally too strong. I stopped running it after top 8ing an SCG Classic with it when Rally became more popular. The matchup was winnable, but the deck lacked wincons that could close the game out quickly enough. I didn't like having a matchup where I barely finished one game, which made the sideboard less effective insofar as you couldn't have access to it for two games without being unwilling to just scoop game 1.
Based on what I ran before, this is what I plan on testing:
Sideboard would include access to Duress, Stasis Snare, Flaying Tendrils, an additional Languish, and maybe Infinite Obliteration. You basically beat the ramp deck by making them discard all of their payoff spells. Anguished Unmaking helps against Ugin and everything else you can just kill with your normal spells.
The deck loses a lot of its life gain, which makes Anguished Unmaking hard to run but still probably worth it. That being said between Seeker and Solemn Visitor the last deck had a ton of life gain to mitigate Read, Ob, and Cave life loss over the course of a long game. Oath seems fine, but could probably be Hangarback Walker instead. I am also considering Dead Weight as a way of killing Jace and triggering Delirium. And the fourth Gideon might be one too many.
The new spoiled cards are not constructed playable but Linvala might be a great option.
O.o not constructed playable.... 5 life for 1 mana is a great sideboard card. Alms is easily playable...thats like saying the entire list of madness cards aren't playable...It is Bump in the Night with life gain and that has been constructed playable for a Long time. Plus, it has sweet synergy with Sorin, 6pt swing plus 3 return
Alms is great in an aggro deck - it's a lava spike-helix for the vampires deck. but as a control deck you aren't closing the game out fast. if it did 3 to a creature and gained 3 life it would be an autoinclude, but most of your removal spells will prevent a lot more than 3 damage. imagine you are facing down a pia and kiran nalaar and you draw a chaplain's blessing...much more effective to have that be a languish or flaying tendrils or grasp of darkness
Alms is great in an aggro deck - it's a lava spike-helix for the vampires deck. but as a control deck you aren't closing the game out fast. if it did 3 to a creature and gained 3 life it would be an autoinclude, but most of your removal spells will prevent a lot more than 3 damage. imagine you are facing down a pia and kiran nalaar and you draw a chaplain's blessing...much more effective to have that be a languish or flaying tendrils or grasp of darkness
Alms is great in an aggro deck - it's a lava spike-helix for the vampires deck. but as a control deck you aren't closing the game out fast. if it did 3 to a creature and gained 3 life it would be an autoinclude, but most of your removal spells will prevent a lot more than 3 damage. imagine you are facing down a pia and kiran nalaar and you draw a chaplain's blessing...much more effective to have that be a languish or flaying tendrils or grasp of darkness
I totally see what you are saying. Obviously, if I were fighting somethjng that plays pia and kiran I wouldn't board it in, and I may not even add it to sb.... It's just that currently the problem with BW control is the lack of life gain we used to get from Seeker of the Way, and Sorin, Solemn Visitor..especially considering we are now adding Anguished Unmaking. I just wanna find away around it because early pressure can get us too low to recover from and makes stuff like Read the Bones a dead card.
After some testing, I'm pretty confident in predicting some form of BW will be tier 1. This is not a particularly bold prediction, because the card quality available in BW is so high that there will be build options for any meta. As it stands, the two main sub-archetypes I see are:
A) midrange builds that plan to win with creatures and Gideon
There'll still be lots of overlap between the two shells, but I think the control build probably runs Languish main and uses creatures mainly to buy time for 'walkers and Ormendahl, Profane Prince, while the midrange build doesn't run sweepers main, and instead plays some creatures to generate pressure and/or board advantage (say Drana, Liberator of Malakir or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet).
I prefer to play midrange in general so I've been testing that general shell. Here's my current build:
To some extent it's hard to have right/wrong choices right now, because average card quality in BW is high compared to other decks, and perfect numbers/choices don't exist until the meta shakes out. In any case, this deck has been doing really well and felt good-to-great in every matchup (<>RG/Jund ramp, BR madness/vamps, BG Mindwrack/Gitrog engine, UB zombies, UR dragons, and UW/Esper control are the non-mirror decks I've played). Archangel of Tithes has been really good; the key is the 5th point of toughness that lets it dodge Grasp of Darkness and Languish as a 4-drop. A similar build to this running Kalitas, a maindeck Tragic Arrogance or two, and Ultimate Price and/or Grasp instead of some of the exile removal is definitely good too (and might be better). Archangel Avacyn is stupid good right now. She'll probably be worse when people play around you passing with 5 lands up, but she feels straight-up unfair in any creature matchup. It's possible this deck wants another Westvale Abbey and 2-3 Secure the Wastes to have a late-game instant-speed trump. I'm going to try that in my next round of testing.
Now you might be thinking "knto why on earth would you run a bad card like Oath of Gideon?" well the answer is quite simple. Oath leaves behind an enchantment for sacing in a pinch, and also since it's legendary it's a great way to get a card type into the graveyard for Descent upon the Sinful. You will also notice I don't run any copies of Flaying Tendrils. I have opted for dead weight since the midgame of my version is rather strong and their is really no need for generating CA off ow board wipes. I also already run quite a few exile effects already so the exile half isn't necessary. Plus Archangel Avacyn got the board wipe thing on lockdown. Although creatures aren't very plentiful in my list it is relatively easy to sacrifice a creature to flip her once you have one. Pious Evangel is in the side to come in for Bound by Moonsilver against control. I am running under the assumption that creature removal will get sided out, however I might be better off just dropping Demonic Pact against control. I haven't gotten to play test it enough. Obviously Angelic Purge and Bound by Moonsilver are for sacing Demonic Pact. A cute thing you can do with Angelic Purge is choose pact as your target and then sac it since targets are chosen before costs are payed allowing you to get rid of pact even when there are no targets for purge(disclaimer: I could be wrong I'm not actually a judge).
Hey guys; I've been torn between this and U/W for a while. Here's a question: For the midrange build, what are your guy's thoughts on using Thraben Inspector as an early blocker/ cheap EoT draw later game? Seems like it might be a decent fit?
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Here's my build for the first couple weeks. I'm expecting, as usual, that there will be a ton of aggro, so I want 1-2 cmc removal spells in high quantity. The deck can go in several directions for the late-game, either winning just with planeswalkers and big creatures, or with a tokens sub-theme that synergizes well with Gideon and Westvale Abbey. The sideboard is pretty heavily geared towards improving the aggro matchup even more, or switching completely to discard effects to crush control decks. I'm unsure of it for now, but I put Kalitas 3-4 in the sideboard in case there is some kind of creature-graveyard recursion effect, like Deathmist Raptor.
I jammed games all weekend except for when not crushing a PPTQ with ol' standard version of BW. This is what I think of matchups thus far, based on what I've played against thus far (barring subpar decklists and what not)
BR Vampires: beaten it three times. You use your early removal for their aggression, Secure the Wastes on turn 3 can eat several Gorgers, and a sweeper or Ob Nixilis seals them out of the game. It plays out like a much weaker version of Abzan aggro. You one for one them till you can push ahead with your four mana spells. The planeswalkers are great here. Boarding in Surge and the second Languish has been solid. Better than the BR vampires against me was a list similar to BR dragons just kinda midrange-y with Thopters.
UWx Control: the biggest difficulty here has been knowing what counterspells to play around. I've beaten UW, Esper, and even a UR control list which was the worse of the three. The UW list had access to Quarantine Field, which sucked when it ate two planeswalkers but made Anguished Unmaking a blowout. Esper was harder to hang with due to their hard removal for our walkers, but I think we do what they are trying to do but better. Yeah, we don't have Jace but our planeswalkers grind so much value when not pressured by creatures. Duress out of the board and Secure the Wastes EOT is still unbeatable for them.
Red Eldrazi: I played against this once and it was rough. The Eldrazi are fine as long as there isn't a Ruins of Oran Rief. Thought Knot Seer plus the counter from Ruins, Vile Aggregate, and Reality Smasher are all really difficult to hang with given our Grasp of Darkness and Languish. I did a lot of chump blocking with Secure tokens to set up my -4/-4. The problem becomes once you deal with Eldrazi you're staring down Thopter tokens. I want to improve my sideboard for tokens with Declaration of Stone, which I don't like in the mainboard.
GR(bw) Walkers: This would include a more focused GR aggro list with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar into Arlinn Kord into Chandra, Flamecaller, but I also want to include the four color planeswalkers lists with Sorin and Gideon powered out by Oath of Nissa and Explosive Vegetation. The GR aggro list goes wider than us with access to anthem effects and sweepers, plus-ing Arlin for an anthem and sweeping away my tokens with Chandra while leaving their tokens alive happened to me. I think this matchup is 50/50 but the games I won I felt unstoppable and the games I lost I felt like they were drawing all heat while my removal wasn't lining up right. The latter is a sign of bad deck-building but when they curve out on walkers and then rip the second Chandra after you deal with the first it might not be me. Silkwrap was important against Hangarback Walker. The four color list was cool, but had a lot of air to it and Secure the Wastes was clutch and really pushed me ahead in the matchup.
GW Humans: This deck seems real. It is able to go wider than the BR deck with tokens, has access to anthem effects in Thalia's Lieutenant giving all the dudes counters, and tons of ability to grind with Den Protector, CoCo, and the werewolf that lets you peek for a creature and then flips to make creatures cheaper. Games in which I could keep them on their back foot with removal till I can lock it down with a planeswalker I won. The games where my removal didn't line up or they went too wide for me to handle I lost. Deck is much more resilient than BR. Avacyn is also pretty good, but our sweepers don't actually care about her giving the team indestructible. Thalia's Lieutenant can also get out of hand by doing a Champion of the Parish impression, which is something to watch out for.
UB Zombies: Deck did not seem good. Silkwrap is clutch in taking care of Relentless Dead. Kalitas seemed weak against our deck without actual creatures. A slower version of BR vampires with worse creatures and silly graveyard shenanigans that don't do enough it seemed.
In terms of card choices, I have three big decisions to make: Linvala OR Avacyn/second Sorin, Silkwrap OR Dead Weight (puts things in the graveyard which is less good, but work towards Delirium and can target cmc>3), Oath of Gideon OR Hangarback Walker. Linvala has been fine, but might cost too much for what it does. I was hesitant to invest in Avacyn and so stuck with a Linvala. New Sorin is really good though, flipping an Ob or an additional Sorin off him might make the second worth it. Silkwrap has been solid, especially against Olivia and Drana, which wouldn't be affected by Dead Weight enough. Oath has been great so far. Tokens have been useful albeit outsized, but keeping Gideon around after making an emblem or giving a bigger Sorin to shoot things with has been great. Hangarback and Dead Weight would be great for Delirium but not sure how much that is necessary.
In terms of the sideboard, Flaying Tendrils has felt bad and I may just want additional Languish in the board. There are a lot of 2/3s and 3/3s in the format but I don't think the aggressive mono red list is quick enough to punish us for the swap. Declaration in Stone is bad mainboard; our games go long enough to give our opponent the chance to sac their clues, but post-board against token heavy decks it might be insane. I probably need more Hallowed Moonlight for Collected Company, but I haven't played against Bant Company enough yet with the new list.
Oh, and if you didn't know. New Sorin is insane.
Edit: Bant Company: Played this matchup some this evening. Grinded them down. Navigated their Company into Languish, held up Hallowed Moonlight mana.
I jammed games all weekend except for when not crushing a PPTQ with ol' standard version of BW. This is what I think of matchups thus far, based on what I've played against thus far (barring subpar decklists and what not)
BR Vampires: beaten it three times. You use your early removal for their aggression, Secure the Wastes on turn 3 can eat several Gorgers, and a sweeper or Ob Nixilis seals them out of the game. It plays out like a much weaker version of Abzan aggro. You one for one them till you can push ahead with your four mana spells. The planeswalkers are great here. Boarding in Surge and the second Languish has been solid. Better than the BR vampires against me was a list similar to BR dragons just kinda midrange-y with Thopters.
UWx Control: the biggest difficulty here has been knowing what counterspells to play around. I've beaten UW, Esper, and even a UR control list which was the worse of the three. The UW list had access to Quarantine Field, which sucked when it ate two planeswalkers but made Anguished Unmaking a blowout. Esper was harder to hang with due to their hard removal for our walkers, but I think we do what they are trying to do but better. Yeah, we don't have Jace but our planeswalkers grind so much value when not pressured by creatures. Duress out of the board and Secure the Wastes EOT is still unbeatable for them.
Red Eldrazi: I played against this once and it was rough. The Eldrazi are fine as long as there isn't a Ruins of Oran Rief. Thought Knot Seer plus the counter from Ruins, Vile Aggregate, and Reality Smasher are all really difficult to hang with given our Grasp of Darkness and Languish. I did a lot of chump blocking with Secure tokens to set up my -4/-4. The problem becomes once you deal with Eldrazi you're staring down Thopter tokens. I want to improve my sideboard for tokens with Declaration of Stone, which I don't like in the mainboard.
GR(bw) Walkers: This would include a more focused GR aggro list with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar into Arlinn Kord into Chandra, Flamecaller, but I also want to include the four color planeswalkers lists with Sorin and Gideon powered out by Oath of Nissa and Explosive Vegetation. The GR aggro list goes wider than us with access to anthem effects and sweepers, plus-ing Arlin for an anthem and sweeping away my tokens with Chandra while leaving their tokens alive happened to me. I think this matchup is 50/50 but the games I won I felt unstoppable and the games I lost I felt like they were drawing all heat while my removal wasn't lining up right. The latter is a sign of bad deck-building but when they curve out on walkers and then rip the second Chandra after you deal with the first it might not be me. Silkwrap was important against Hangarback Walker. The four color list was cool, but had a lot of air to it and Secure the Wastes was clutch and really pushed me ahead in the matchup.
GW Humans: This deck seems real. It is able to go wider than the BR deck with tokens, has access to anthem effects in Thalia's Lieutenant giving all the dudes counters, and tons of ability to grind with Den Protector, CoCo, and the werewolf that lets you peek for a creature and then flips to make creatures cheaper. Games in which I could keep them on their back foot with removal till I can lock it down with a planeswalker I won. The games where my removal didn't line up or they went too wide for me to handle I lost. Deck is much more resilient than BR. Avacyn is also pretty good, but our sweepers don't actually care about her giving the team indestructible. Thalia's Lieutenant can also get out of hand by doing a Champion of the Parish impression, which is something to watch out for.
UB Zombies: Deck did not seem good. Silkwrap is clutch in taking care of Relentless Dead. Kalitas seemed weak against our deck without actual creatures. A slower version of BR vampires with worse creatures and silly graveyard shenanigans that don't do enough it seemed.
In terms of card choices, I have three big decisions to make: Linvala OR Avacyn/second Sorin, Silkwrap OR Dead Weight (puts things in the graveyard which is less good, but work towards Delirium and can target cmc>3), Oath of Gideon OR Hangarback Walker. Linvala has been fine, but might cost too much for what it does. I was hesitant to invest in Avacyn and so stuck with a Linvala. New Sorin is really good though, flipping an Ob or an additional Sorin off him might make the second worth it. Silkwrap has been solid, especially against Olivia and Drana, which wouldn't be affected by Dead Weight enough. Oath has been great so far. Tokens have been useful albeit outsized, but keeping Gideon around after making an emblem or giving a bigger Sorin to shoot things with has been great. Hangarback and Dead Weight would be great for Delirium but not sure how much that is necessary.
In terms of the sideboard, Flaying Tendrils has felt bad and I may just want additional Languish in the board. There are a lot of 2/3s and 3/3s in the format but I don't think the aggressive mono red list is quick enough to punish us for the swap. Declaration in Stone is bad mainboard; our games go long enough to give our opponent the chance to sac their clues, but post-board against token heavy decks it might be insane. I probably need more Hallowed Moonlight for Collected Company, but I haven't played against Bant Company enough yet with the new list.
Oh, and if you didn't know. New Sorin is insane.
Edit: Bant Company: Played this matchup some this evening. Grinded them down. Navigated their Company into Languish, held up Hallowed Moonlight mana.
aweSOME! Thanks for the great report. when DId you opt to board in Declaration in Stone? What did you remove for them... Transgress?
I was bringing in Declaration for Deathmist Raptor out of Bant, thopters in Red Eldrazi, and random tokens against RG Tokens. Cutting Transgress against Bant, cutting Oaths against Eldrazi, and Read against RG Tokens.
Report is kinda awkward in terms of just being some decks are good and some are bad, gameplan is to grind 'em down, but just trying to get information together. Just outgrinded a UB control deck casting multiple Epiphany at the Drownyard by leveraging Secure against his planeswalkers and keeping mine in play. Game 3, I was able to just curve Gideon into Ob into Sorin and stomp him protected by early Duress. Deck is a blast.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I was bringing in Declaration for Deathmist Raptor out of Bant, thopters in Red Eldrazi, and random tokens against RG Tokens. Cutting Transgress against Bant, cutting Oaths against Eldrazi, and Read against RG Tokens.
Report is kinda awkward in terms of just being some decks are good and some are bad, gameplan is to grind 'em down, but just trying to get information together. Just outgrinded a UB control deck casting multiple Epiphany at the Drownyard by leveraging Secure against his planeswalkers and keeping mine in play. Game 3, I was able to just curve Gideon into Ob into Sorin and stomp him protected by early Duress. Deck is a blast.
Nice!Yea, I definitely feel like B/W is going to be teir 1.
Just for future reference, use deck tags as opposed to linking off site. Makes it easier on everyone, and it's real easy to do.
Now, you need Sorin in this deck; it's a great planeswalker to have, at least 1. Also, if you're running control, the Secure the Wastes and Westvale Abbey is a potent combo to have at your disposal, and is a game ender for us. Just a couple things I've noticed right off the bat.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Everything else should be tweaked but these minimum numbers will help you apply pressure to the opponent while keeping your lifetotal high enough to use spells like Read the Bones and Anguished Unmaking.
Edit:
I think Moving towards a more midrange style deck with Liliana, Heretical Healer would be great as it adds another lifegain tool and if you can get it to flip consistently it adds to the gameplan.
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Forsaken Sanctuary
4x Plains
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Shambling Vent
4x Swamp
4x Westvale Abbey
4x Angelic Purge
1x Dark Petition
2x Planar Outburst
3x Read the Bones
4x Ruinous Path
Creature (3)
2x Archangel Avacyn
1x Linvala, the Preserver
3x Anguished Unmaking
4x Grasp of Darkness
3x Secure the Wastes
Planeswalker (4)
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Enchantment (3)
3x Demonic Pact
Based on what I ran before, this is what I plan on testing:
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Silkwrap
4 Transgress the Mind
3 Oath of Gideon
4 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Languish
1 Descend Upon the Sinful
3 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Plains
6 Swamp
2 Forsaken Sanctuary
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Shambling Vent
2 Blighted Fen
1 Westvale Abbey
Sideboard would include access to Duress, Stasis Snare, Flaying Tendrils, an additional Languish, and maybe Infinite Obliteration. You basically beat the ramp deck by making them discard all of their payoff spells. Anguished Unmaking helps against Ugin and everything else you can just kill with your normal spells.
The deck loses a lot of its life gain, which makes Anguished Unmaking hard to run but still probably worth it. That being said between Seeker and Solemn Visitor the last deck had a ton of life gain to mitigate Read, Ob, and Cave life loss over the course of a long game. Oath seems fine, but could probably be Hangarback Walker instead. I am also considering Dead Weight as a way of killing Jace and triggering Delirium. And the fourth Gideon might be one too many.
WHat about Linvala, the Preserver, or the new spoiled cards Alms of the Vein or Chaplain's Blessing. better life gain options?
O.o not constructed playable.... 5 life for 1 mana is a great sideboard card. Alms is easily playable...thats like saying the entire list of madness cards aren't playable...It is Bump in the Night with life gain and that has been constructed playable for a Long time. Plus, it has sweet synergy with Sorin, 6pt swing plus 3 return
Why do you think they aren't playable?
I totally see what you are saying. Obviously, if I were fighting somethjng that plays pia and kiran I wouldn't board it in, and I may not even add it to sb.... It's just that currently the problem with BW control is the lack of life gain we used to get from Seeker of the Way, and Sorin, Solemn Visitor..especially considering we are now adding Anguished Unmaking. I just wanna find away around it because early pressure can get us too low to recover from and makes stuff like Read the Bones a dead card.
Of course, maybe I'm just overreacting
A) midrange builds that plan to win with creatures and Gideon
B) control builds that plan to win with Westvale Abbey and Secure the Wastes
There'll still be lots of overlap between the two shells, but I think the control build probably runs Languish main and uses creatures mainly to buy time for 'walkers and Ormendahl, Profane Prince, while the midrange build doesn't run sweepers main, and instead plays some creatures to generate pressure and/or board advantage (say Drana, Liberator of Malakir or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet).
I prefer to play midrange in general so I've been testing that general shell. Here's my current build:
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Archangel of Tithes
3 Archangel Avacyn
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Spells (12)
2 Silkwrap
2 Stasis Snare
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Ruinous Path
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Read the Bones
7 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Duress
3 Flaying Tendrils
2 Dead Weight
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Read the Bones
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Grasp of Darkness
To some extent it's hard to have right/wrong choices right now, because average card quality in BW is high compared to other decks, and perfect numbers/choices don't exist until the meta shakes out. In any case, this deck has been doing really well and felt good-to-great in every matchup (<>RG/Jund ramp, BR madness/vamps, BG Mindwrack/Gitrog engine, UB zombies, UR dragons, and UW/Esper control are the non-mirror decks I've played). Archangel of Tithes has been really good; the key is the 5th point of toughness that lets it dodge Grasp of Darkness and Languish as a 4-drop. A similar build to this running Kalitas, a maindeck Tragic Arrogance or two, and Ultimate Price and/or Grasp instead of some of the exile removal is definitely good too (and might be better). Archangel Avacyn is stupid good right now. She'll probably be worse when people play around you passing with 5 lands up, but she feels straight-up unfair in any creature matchup. It's possible this deck wants another Westvale Abbey and 2-3 Secure the Wastes to have a late-game instant-speed trump. I'm going to try that in my next round of testing.
TL;DR - BW is legit.
@Sempuken: Got to test a Linvala over the fourth Gideon today. Loved it. The other cards just don't impact the board; control decks control the board.
Real Magic Players play 4x Demonic Pact.
4 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Evolving Wilds
6 Plains
9 Swamp
Creatures
2 Archangel Avacyn
Spells
4 Demonic Pact
3 Bound by Moonsilver
2 Angelic Purge
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Secure the Wastes
3 Oath of Gideon
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Read the Bones
3 Transgress the Mind
4 Dead Weight
3 Pious Evangel
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Descend upon the Sinful
3 Duress
1 Read the Bones
Now you might be thinking "knto why on earth would you run a bad card like Oath of Gideon?" well the answer is quite simple. Oath leaves behind an enchantment for sacing in a pinch, and also since it's legendary it's a great way to get a card type into the graveyard for Descent upon the Sinful. You will also notice I don't run any copies of Flaying Tendrils. I have opted for dead weight since the midgame of my version is rather strong and their is really no need for generating CA off ow board wipes. I also already run quite a few exile effects already so the exile half isn't necessary. Plus Archangel Avacyn got the board wipe thing on lockdown. Although creatures aren't very plentiful in my list it is relatively easy to sacrifice a creature to flip her once you have one. Pious Evangel is in the side to come in for Bound by Moonsilver against control. I am running under the assumption that creature removal will get sided out, however I might be better off just dropping Demonic Pact against control. I haven't gotten to play test it enough. Obviously Angelic Purge and Bound by Moonsilver are for sacing Demonic Pact. A cute thing you can do with Angelic Purge is choose pact as your target and then sac it since targets are chosen before costs are payed allowing you to get rid of pact even when there are no targets for purge(disclaimer: I could be wrong I'm not actually a judge).
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Shambling Vent
3 Caves of Koilos
6 Swamp
6 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey
Creatures (5)
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Planeswalker (7)
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Anguished Unmaking
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Grasp of Darkness
Sorcery (9)
3 Angelic Purge
1 Planar Outburst
3 Read the Bones
2 Transgress the Mind
Enchantment (6)
3 Demonic Pact
2 Silkwrap
1 Bound by Moonsilver
3 Duress
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Languish
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Ruinous Path
2 To the Slaughter
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
2x Forsaken Sanctuary
7x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
7x Swamp
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Archangel Avacyn
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Linvala, the Preserver
2x Duress
4x Read the Bones
2x Transgress the Mind
2x Anguished Unmaking
4x Secure the Wastes
2x Ultimate Price
2x Dead Weight
2x Oath of Gideon
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Duress
4x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Ruinous Path
2x Transgress the Mind
2x Ultimate Price
BR Vampires: beaten it three times. You use your early removal for their aggression, Secure the Wastes on turn 3 can eat several Gorgers, and a sweeper or Ob Nixilis seals them out of the game. It plays out like a much weaker version of Abzan aggro. You one for one them till you can push ahead with your four mana spells. The planeswalkers are great here. Boarding in Surge and the second Languish has been solid. Better than the BR vampires against me was a list similar to BR dragons just kinda midrange-y with Thopters.
UWx Control: the biggest difficulty here has been knowing what counterspells to play around. I've beaten UW, Esper, and even a UR control list which was the worse of the three. The UW list had access to Quarantine Field, which sucked when it ate two planeswalkers but made Anguished Unmaking a blowout. Esper was harder to hang with due to their hard removal for our walkers, but I think we do what they are trying to do but better. Yeah, we don't have Jace but our planeswalkers grind so much value when not pressured by creatures. Duress out of the board and Secure the Wastes EOT is still unbeatable for them.
Red Eldrazi: I played against this once and it was rough. The Eldrazi are fine as long as there isn't a Ruins of Oran Rief. Thought Knot Seer plus the counter from Ruins, Vile Aggregate, and Reality Smasher are all really difficult to hang with given our Grasp of Darkness and Languish. I did a lot of chump blocking with Secure tokens to set up my -4/-4. The problem becomes once you deal with Eldrazi you're staring down Thopter tokens. I want to improve my sideboard for tokens with Declaration of Stone, which I don't like in the mainboard.
GR(bw) Walkers: This would include a more focused GR aggro list with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar into Arlinn Kord into Chandra, Flamecaller, but I also want to include the four color planeswalkers lists with Sorin and Gideon powered out by Oath of Nissa and Explosive Vegetation. The GR aggro list goes wider than us with access to anthem effects and sweepers, plus-ing Arlin for an anthem and sweeping away my tokens with Chandra while leaving their tokens alive happened to me. I think this matchup is 50/50 but the games I won I felt unstoppable and the games I lost I felt like they were drawing all heat while my removal wasn't lining up right. The latter is a sign of bad deck-building but when they curve out on walkers and then rip the second Chandra after you deal with the first it might not be me. Silkwrap was important against Hangarback Walker. The four color list was cool, but had a lot of air to it and Secure the Wastes was clutch and really pushed me ahead in the matchup.
GW Humans: This deck seems real. It is able to go wider than the BR deck with tokens, has access to anthem effects in Thalia's Lieutenant giving all the dudes counters, and tons of ability to grind with Den Protector, CoCo, and the werewolf that lets you peek for a creature and then flips to make creatures cheaper. Games in which I could keep them on their back foot with removal till I can lock it down with a planeswalker I won. The games where my removal didn't line up or they went too wide for me to handle I lost. Deck is much more resilient than BR. Avacyn is also pretty good, but our sweepers don't actually care about her giving the team indestructible. Thalia's Lieutenant can also get out of hand by doing a Champion of the Parish impression, which is something to watch out for.
UB Zombies: Deck did not seem good. Silkwrap is clutch in taking care of Relentless Dead. Kalitas seemed weak against our deck without actual creatures. A slower version of BR vampires with worse creatures and silly graveyard shenanigans that don't do enough it seemed.
4 Secure the Wastes
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Silkwrap
4 Transgress the Mind
3 Oath of Gideon
4 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Languish
1 Descend Upon the Sinful
3 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Plains
5 Swamp
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Shambling Vent
2 Blighted Fen
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Duress
1 Dark Petition
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Languish
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Declaration in Stone
1 Hallowed Moonlight
In terms of card choices, I have three big decisions to make: Linvala OR Avacyn/second Sorin, Silkwrap OR Dead Weight (puts things in the graveyard which is less good, but work towards Delirium and can target cmc>3), Oath of Gideon OR Hangarback Walker. Linvala has been fine, but might cost too much for what it does. I was hesitant to invest in Avacyn and so stuck with a Linvala. New Sorin is really good though, flipping an Ob or an additional Sorin off him might make the second worth it. Silkwrap has been solid, especially against Olivia and Drana, which wouldn't be affected by Dead Weight enough. Oath has been great so far. Tokens have been useful albeit outsized, but keeping Gideon around after making an emblem or giving a bigger Sorin to shoot things with has been great. Hangarback and Dead Weight would be great for Delirium but not sure how much that is necessary.
In terms of the sideboard, Flaying Tendrils has felt bad and I may just want additional Languish in the board. There are a lot of 2/3s and 3/3s in the format but I don't think the aggressive mono red list is quick enough to punish us for the swap. Declaration in Stone is bad mainboard; our games go long enough to give our opponent the chance to sac their clues, but post-board against token heavy decks it might be insane. I probably need more Hallowed Moonlight for Collected Company, but I haven't played against Bant Company enough yet with the new list.
Oh, and if you didn't know. New Sorin is insane.
Edit: Bant Company: Played this matchup some this evening. Grinded them down. Navigated their Company into Languish, held up Hallowed Moonlight mana.
aweSOME! Thanks for the great report. when DId you opt to board in Declaration in Stone? What did you remove for them... Transgress?
Report is kinda awkward in terms of just being some decks are good and some are bad, gameplan is to grind 'em down, but just trying to get information together. Just outgrinded a UB control deck casting multiple Epiphany at the Drownyard by leveraging Secure against his planeswalkers and keeping mine in play. Game 3, I was able to just curve Gideon into Ob into Sorin and stomp him protected by early Duress. Deck is a blast.
Nice!Yea, I definitely feel like B/W is going to be teir 1.
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Descend upon the Sinful
2x Languish
4x Reave Soul
2x Remorseless Punishment
Enchantment:
4x Dead Weight
4x Myth Realized
3x Stasis Snare
4x Grasp of Darkness
4x Immolating Glare
Planeswalker:
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Lands:
4x Caves of Koilos
7x Plains
2x Rogue's Passage
4x Shambling Vent
5x Swamp
3x Searing Light
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
3x Tainted Remedy
3x Ultimate Price
3x Virulent Plague
Just for future reference, use deck tags as opposed to linking off site. Makes it easier on everyone, and it's real easy to do.
Now, you need Sorin in this deck; it's a great planeswalker to have, at least 1. Also, if you're running control, the Secure the Wastes and Westvale Abbey is a potent combo to have at your disposal, and is a game ender for us. Just a couple things I've noticed right off the bat.
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Descend upon the Sinful
2x Languish
4x Reave Soul
2x Remorseless Punishment
Enchantment:
4x Dead Weight
4x Myth Realized
3x Stasis Snare
Instant:
4x Grasp of Darkness
2x Immolating Glare
2x Secure the Wastes
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands:
4x Caves of Koilos
5x Plains
2x Rogue's Passage
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Shambling Vent
5x Swamp
3x Searing Light
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
3x Tainted Remedy
3x Ultimate Price
3x Virulent Plague
How's this look?