while IBTG's "Smoking Weed" deck (lolz what a dumb name amirite?)
Please tell me he isn't claiming credit for that deck. Tom's first list was posted on 10/10. Quetzilla posted a thread begining on 10/9, in response to multiple wins before then. He can claim credit for the dumb name though.
I realize that you've become the de-facto T2 authority since HKKID and I stopped posting here
How sad, really (on both fronts, the fact of you not posting and who the crown has passed to). I actually miss the days of agreeing with you on NOTHING Cyan.
AanAllein created top 4'd in multiple places
This deck that you refer to is the one that I recommend to people in the format right now who lean away from the Controlish builds. I strongly recommend the build with the Orcish Artillery because of where the format has progressed. The one thing of note is that if you look at the sideboard (in this case, I am citing the Pennsylvania decklist), there are cards (Flames of the Blood Hand, Genju) which are better against Control. In these situations, the Orcish Artillery would be replaced, obviously. However, as the "default" decklist, I would say that Orcish Artillery deserves his spot in the maindeck.
Frankly, I would give the "authority" crown a million times over to Aan over IBTG.
The point is the card is subpar but if u want to take 3 a pop to kill one of my creatures even if i don't kill you OA swinging for even a few a turn can put you in burn range i mean 2-3 hits from your own artillery
According to this logic, Boseiju and Char are horrible cards too.
Your right your right cause you know anthem isnt better as it saves your other guys and my testing is right where it should be no where I don't have to prove the card is bad you have to prove its good.
....You really need to work on your sentences. And I have no idea what you're really referring to; Anthem saves your other guys from... Nausea? I guess they'll catch the Hideous Laughter, or something. Wait, what does "saving creatures from destruction" and "winning when you're stalled out" have to do with each other? No, no, nevermind, you must have an excellent reason for comparing those two cards. Just as excellent as your grammar and spelling.
Te reason I have no testing proof is because noone around here is thick-headed enough to run OA so i get no testing because you know no one runs-last gasp, glorious anthem(taking your opp creatures out of range),helix,char, any other kill spell except maybe pyroclasm......
If they've got Anthem, what's stopping me from pointing the Artillery at you? If I'm at 16 and you're at 3, I have no problem taking flak to see you dead in two turns. I guess you're also saying that Last Gasp, Helix, Char, and all those other kill spells obviously make a creature not worth playing. Yeah, with so much creature removal, it's obviously stupid to run creatures that can be removed. That's why we're running creatures.
The point is the card is subpar but if u want to take 3 a pop to kill one of my creatures even if i don't kill you OA swinging for even a few a turn can put you in burn range i mean 2-3 hits from your own artillery so a good Burning skies deck should be able to easily get 5-6 damage in and dont say you wont cause you cant even kill anything before turn 2-3 and with th bum rush W/R variants provide i would much rather run anthem......
Hey, I can string phrases together with no punctuation too its so easy but I really don't see how this is beneficial to anyone understanding see because you have no idea of the sentence structure without reading through the thing five times but who would read five times the same thing amirite?
I don't know how you've got me saying that I run Artillery over Anthem. What, there's not enough room for both?
O I hear a few decks running that made t8 also.
I hear that Glorious Anthem is a card that you should run in Burning Skies. Not sure why you're talking about that deck, though...
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Your right your right cause you know anthem isnt better
Did you even look at the deck in question? How th **** do you play anthem in a deck that is splashing white. Get it through your head this is not WW/r it's R/w aggro.
Quote from turning_of_the_tide »
my testing is right where it should be no where I don't have to prove the card is bad you have to prove its good. Te reason I have no testing proof is because noone around here is thick-headed enough to run OA
Love this argument. If you don't have anything to say then don't say anything. You just basically "I don't believe anything you say it's true even though I know **** of what I'm talking about". I you want to act childishly then expect to be treated like a child.
Quote from turning_of_the_tide »
so i get no testing because you know no one runs-last gasp, glorious anthem(taking your opp creatures out of range),helix,char, any other kill spell except maybe pyroclasm......
Yay sarcasm For some reason, my head tells me that all those cards were probably present at the evnts this deck top 4'd and yet it did well. Maybe there's a reason for that?
Quote from turning_of_the_tide »
The point is the card is subpar but if u want to take 3 a pop to kill one of my creatures even if i don't kill you OA swinging for even a few a turn can put you in burn range i mean 2-3 hits from your own artillery so a good Burning skies deck should be able to easily get 5-6 damage in and dont say you wont cause you cant even kill anything before turn 2-3 and with th bum rush W/R variants provide i would much rather run anthem.......O I hear a few decks running that made t8 also.
Not only in magic but in many other things in life, you mustent prove something to be false or bad, the opposing side must prove it to be true or good.
Until someone can give evidence of this card doing anything in a deck other than Kjins Rw aggro or any non boros guildmage/genju of the spires aggro then it stays on the table as bad.
The only reason the card see's play in Rw aggro is because Rw aggro is heavy red, so it can support double red on turn three. Also, it serves as 2 to the dome every turn or a path clear for a 6/1 mountain. The card only does it's job in THIS DECK and no other.
Unless of course someone wants to use results and matchup analysis to prove me wrong...
well, yeah, it's only good in a deck that can get 1rr and wants to burn out its opponent's creatures. just like arcbound ravager is only good in a deck with lots of artifacts. are you going to argue that ravager is bad just because i can't stick it into my mono-blue control deck?
How sad, really (on both fronts, the fact of you not posting and who the crown has passed to). I actually miss the days of agreeing with you on NOTHING Cyan.
Well, since I realized how really wrong I was about Top, I've tried to be alot more open-minded about stuff, particularly stuff that people from MT say. And anyway, it's just here that we don't post, we both still post on 'news.
Frankly, I would give the "authority" crown a million times over to Aan over IBTG.
Me too. I'd give it to him over myself, and anyone that I know really...there are obviously probably thousands of people that are more of an authority on T2 than any of us. The problem is that, he(AanAllein) doesn't really post here(not that you can really blame him, look what a warm reception he's gotten)..and of course people will listen to someone just because they see that person's name alot, even if that person is wrong frequently, vs. someone whom doesn't post this often. You would think that people on Magic Forums would normally be very amicable to any idea that might be good, since it'd help them improve..but generally it seems to not work this way, people just thumb their noses at alot. I think that the Billy Moreno thing yesterday is a good example of the wonder that is magic forum posters. On the mtg.com forums, everyone was bagging on him for the entirety of his match vs. Ruel, about what an awful player he is, and so on...of course, the fact that he was busy making 20K for playing Magic while they were sitting at home posting about how awful he was really escaped them. Admittedly, he made alot of mistakes and simply cheated(intentionally or not) a couple of times, but the way that people in general on magic forums treat people sometimes is just ridiculous. This thread is a prime example..a guy can't even present an idea without people completely making fun of him. Nevermind that it's a GOOD idea. Plus, arguing on these forums seems pointless, it's so rare that anyone is ever like 'yeah you might be right', they just dismiss ideas out of hand w/o stopping to think about it.
The problem is that a certain fall-out of logic happens. It's simply true that States isn't really a valid argument for determining how good a deck is, etcetera...in general. But when only 4 people play a deck, and they all T4 with it, even if it's just at States, that still says something. Similarly, States will still give you a rough idea of what the Tiers will be, just not a 'set in stone' idea, and States won't make/break any decks..IE: People played MUC at States and did well with it, ensuring that it will be a Tier-1 deck. But, people also played Battle of Wits at States and some did weill with it..however, it's probably not better than Tier-2. You have to be able to discern the fact that some decks can do well at a tournament like States because they're 'rogue', but, in a really competitive tournament, even just PTQs, your chances of succeeding with a 'rogue' deck are significantly lower. Of course, too many people don't realize that not everything that doesn't get played alot is rogue..when you take an existing archetype and just make a different variation of it, that's not a rogue deck...rogue is like..Eminent Domain.
Anyway..back to lurking here and not posting, just wanted to make these non-strategy related comments, mostly because I thought that it was funny that you said that you enjoy not agreeing with me on things Who wants to disagree with people, heh.
Remedy4Destruction: Saying that some cards are only good in certain decks, thus making them bad cards, isn't a realistic argument. That's like saying that Yawgmoth's Will is bad because you can't play it in decks that run alot of creatures. That's an inaccurate statement. Some cards just have to have synergy with the deck that they're in. The only cards that you can just randomly throw in any deck(IMO) are A)card draw and B)removal. And even then, you have to justify running whatever color they're in if you're not running it already.
The only reason the card see's play in Rw aggro is because Rw aggro is heavy red, so it can support double red on turn three. Also, it serves as 2 to the dome every turn or a path clear for a 6/1 mountain. The card only does it's job in THIS DECK and no other.
The only reason the card see's play in creature decks is because creature decks have targets, so it can support using it on turn three....The card only does it's job in THOSE DECKS and no other.
According to your logic, and using your sentence, Jitte is a "bad" card because it can only be used with decks with creatures.
Not to mention "clearing for a 6/1" mountain isn't exactly a "bad" thing.
Nice job.
Who wants to disagree with people, heh.
As you pointed out, we used to be on the other side of things (I think you actually mentioned it at one point), and we discussed them constructively. That's why you disagree with people =).
OA doesn't work in every deck, but it can be a very good card in the right deck. It's a viable card for today's metagame. Whether that will continue to be true remains to be seen.
Where I play, people play a ton of rats. OA just murders rats. lol...
Remedy4Destruction: Saying that some cards are only good in certain decks, thus making them bad cards, isn't a realistic argument. That's like saying that Yawgmoth's Will is bad because you can't play it in decks that run alot of creatures. That's an inaccurate statement. Some cards just have to have synergy with the deck that they're in. The only cards that you can just randomly throw in any deck(IMO) are A)card draw and B)removal. And even then, you have to justify running whatever color they're in if you're not running it already.
well, yeah, it's only good in a deck that can get 1rr and wants to burn out its opponent's creatures. just like arcbound ravager is only good in a deck with lots of artifacts. are you going to argue that ravager is bad just because i can't stick it into my mono-blue control deck?
The only reason the card see's play in creature decks is because creature decks have targets, so it can support using it on turn three....The card only does it's job in THOSE DECKS and no other.
According to your logic, and using your sentence, Jitte is a "bad" card because it can only be used with decks with creatures.
Not to mention "clearing for a 6/1" mountain isn't exactly a "bad" thing.
Nice job.
My post was directed at the topic creator in saying it is NOT good in a deck like WR control. I'm quite aware it is good in Rw aggro.
Good is just a matter of opinion, good can mean effictive to some people and broken to others, so flaming someone for saying its a good/bad card isn't really necessary.
Good is also relative to the deck it is being played in. Jitte is in fact crap in a creatureless deck. Yawgmoth's will is bad in deck with 0 black sources.
In this topic, the creator asked if OA was secret tech for CONTROL, not Rw aggro.
The short answer: No
The long answer: a WR control deck has better mor efficent answers to small creatures such as pyroclasm and the like. Running a 1/3 2 a turn at a cost of 3 to yourself type creature is a wasted slot, espically with the 8+ board sweepers you should be running.
I'm quite aware OA works wonders in Rw aggro deck, that was the entire point of my post kashmyr.
My post was directed at the topic creator in saying it is NOT good in a deck like WR control. I'm quite aware it is good in Rw aggro.
Good is just a matter of opinion, good can mean effictive to some people and broken to others, so flaming someone for saying its a good/bad card isn't really necessary.
Good is also relative to the deck it is being played in. Jitte is in fact crap in a creatureless deck. Yawgmoth's will is bad in deck with 0 black sources.
In this topic, the creator asked if OA was secret tech for CONTROL, not Rw aggro.
The short answer: No
The long answer: a WR control deck has better mor efficent answers to small creatures such as pyroclasm and the like. Running a 1/3 2 a turn at a cost of 3 to yourself type creature is a wasted slot, espically with the 8+ board sweepers you should be running.
I'm quite aware OA works wonders in Rw aggro deck, that was the entire point of my post kashmyr.
Well, if you skipped everything in between, I guess that could work. However, we've been long past the consideration of it in W/R Control and currently there's been insistence among quite a few that Orcish Artillery has no place in any competitive Type 2 deck, period.
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Wow I just can't win...... you guys play at worlds(if any of you are going) and play OA and when it t8 in a real competition and I see where it won someone the game then I will change my opinion but until then. I would if you really wnat to get into a personal arguement like to see some ratings..... I mean if you want to get personal.
As is we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I hope some of you will realize that this card is just meh.
By all your defenitions that you are supposedly bashing me with Mortipede is good, Higari is good.... I mean once again worlds will tell all.
AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE QUIT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH AND SHOW ME SOME RESULTS....... YOU CAN SIT HERE AND BASH ME ALL DAY BUT YOU KEEP SEEMING TO SKIP OVER THE IMPORTANT QUESTION.
Obviously none of you are lawyers because you would know the prosecuter must prove the idea correct its not the defendants job to prove it wrong.(and yes its the exact same for magic)
-TotT
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
Wow I just can't win...... you guys play at worlds(if any of you are going) and play OA and when it t8 in a real competition and I see where it won someone the game then I will change my opinion but until then. I would if you really wnat to get into a personal arguement like to see some ratings..... I mean if you want to get personal.
ooOoooOOoh, let's travel to the future in order to satisfy you.
As is we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I hope some of you will realize that this card is just meh.
Because you obviously tested it and are asking us for results just to be seconded.
By all your defenitions that you are supposedly bashing me with Mortipede is good, Higari is good.... I mean once again worlds will tell all.
Well, by your definition Forest is stupid, Swamp is stupid, Hypnotic Specter is stupid... I mean, States can run crap cards, but that doesn't stop them from running cards that work, too.
AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE QUIT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH AND SHOW ME SOME RESULTS....... YOU CAN SIT HERE AND BASH ME ALL DAY BUT YOU KEEP SEEMING TO SKIP OVER THE IMPORTANT QUESTION.
What results? You want us to post up a gamelog of every time Orcish Artillery happened to pop up, or something? Or the numerical records of how many times a deck with Orcish Artillery won? Stop beating around the bush and ask more clearly.
Obviously none of you are lawyers because you would know the prosecuter must prove the idea correct its not the defendants job to prove it wrong.(and yes its the exact same for magic)
Last I checked, we provided the most prominent evidence, States, and you dismissed it as irrelevant.
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Wow I just can't win...... you guys play at worlds(if any of you are going) and play OA and when it t8 in a real competition and I see where it won someone the game then I will change my opinion but until then. I would if you really wnat to get into a personal arguement like to see some ratings..... I mean if you want to get personal.
Quote from turning_of_the_tide »
As is we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I hope some of you will realize that this card is just meh.
By all your defenitions that you are supposedly bashing me with Mortipede is good, Higari is good.... I mean once again worlds will tell all.
Do you seriuosly think that what you're saying here means anything. It's already been said how OA is a good card in the deck and your argument for it being bad is because a crappy card also top8ed states. Seriously now.
Quote from turning_of_the_tide »
AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE QUIT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH AND SHOW ME SOME RESULTS....... YOU CAN SIT HERE AND BASH ME ALL DAY BUT YOU KEEP SEEMING TO SKIP OVER THE IMPORTANT QUESTION.
Oh you mean the aforementioned 4 top4's in all 4 states the deck was played in plus the article that should come up soon that Aanallein already mentioned.
Quote from turning_of_the_tide »
Obviously none of you are lawyers because you would know the prosecuter must prove the idea correct its not the defendants job to prove it wrong.(and yes its the exact same for magic)
-TotT
Obviously you know nothing about being a lawyer since you would know that an argument is not the same as an opinion.
Yeah isn't that cute.....by the way if you misquote me you are libel and no I did not say that quote anywhere anytime on this thread or any other..... Please just sit down and shut up..... you are really just making yourself look like a fool. I will once agains say I want results and will not change until I get them and no one seems to be able to provide them. I mean do we even no that those lists with OA in them found them helpful? For all we know hypithetically they may have not even been played..... If I see those top 8 people tell me "o yea OA was great for <reason> and made this <great play>." But I have yet to see anyone playing a t8 decktell me such and I do not want to be bombarded by quotes of how I am a bad person when no one can even awnser my simple questions......
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
Yeah isn't that cute.....by the way if you misquote me you are libel and no I did not say that quote anywhere anytime on this thread or any other.....
Yes, summaries are exact quotes.
Please just sit down and shut up..... you are really just making yourself look like a fool.
Don't you have to sit down in order to type unless you're at one of those gimpy public library computers?
I will once agains say I want results and will not change until I get them and no one seems to be able to provide them. I mean do we even no that those lists with OA in them found them helpful? For all we know hypithetically they may have not even been played..... If I see those top 8 people tell me "o yea OA was great for <reason> and made this <great play>."
The Artillery removes chump blockers in a deck that does not run too many fliers. This is GOOD. The Artillery can deal those final points of damage and keep up pressure against control decks who have stalled out the ground. This is GOOD. You for some odd reason refuse to look at these points and instead wish to hear "results," which in your definition is people accounting how Orcish Artillery pwned in some conditional event, and that a four-of never saw play throughout a tournament that spanned a good number of MATCHES...
But I have yet to see anyone playing a t8 decktell me such and I do not want to be bombarded by quotes of how I am a bad person when no one can even awnser my simple questions......
Yeah, I'm not the person who ran the deck in the States Top4. Thus, I can't "awnser" (since you'll accuse me of libel if I misquote you, eh?) your simple question which actually isn't able to be "awnser"ed by anyone BUT the player who ran the deck in that tournament.
Oh but WAIT. Orcish Artillery was in STATES! That means it's just like MORTIPEDE. Yes, a 3B creature from Ravnica is comparable to a 1RR creature in 9th edition because... um... they're CREATURES! Who cares if they're different in rarity, power/toughness, abilities, mana cost, and all that other important stuff. Since they were both run in States, obviously cards run in States like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Leonin Skyhunter, and Orcish Artillery were utter crap. Oh, and Higure was crap too, even though nobody in the top 8's ran him.
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It stands to reason that, since only 4 people played it, and they all made T4, it's a successful deck. Yes, it was States, so it's not the BEST example, but, it's still better than any random testing you can do online. Also, if people had gotten back to him and said 'yeah Artillery didn't really do anything', do you really think this conversation would be occuring?
On a side note, your idea of libel is hugely inaccurate, unless you're of the mind that him 'misquoting' you(actually taking something you said out of context, which is not illegal anyway) is going to 'defame' your real life persona and cause you some kind of physical/monetary loss. Somehow, that seems unlikely.
TotT, honestly, you know so little about Competitive T2. I'm not trying to be rude, but, I'm tired of your arrogant attitude. Your idea of the 'Tiers' was soooo far off base that I could have listed what I thought the Tiers would be for Tier 1 in Vintage and been closer than you were. Stop treating everyone like crap and acting like you know so much, when in reality, you don't. People come here to have civil, rational conversations, not to listen to arrogant prattle from people that haven't shown that they know anything at all about the format under discussion. You have zero credibility, yet you're acting like everyone has to prove everything to you. You can't even come up with your own examples/logic, you have to use flawed examples that IBTG used earlier...it's ridiculous, I dunno why anyone even responds to you.
I have no problem with IBTG; frankly I have no idea who is and I don't care. He seems to have a capable head on his shoulders, but in this case is also horribly, horribly wrong. But hey, when he's designed 3 States-winning decklists, we can talk about Standard. Until then I will just thumb my nose at his mediocrity.
Your suggestion of running guys like Veteran Armorer and (eww) Goblin Cohort indicates you're not familiar with the archetype. The deck I built that placed in the top 4 at all 3 events it was played in certainly can play as an aggro deck, but it is at its core an aggro-control deck. It's RDW, it just happens to be playing some White cards. Goblin Cohort doesn't work because you don't want to be overcommitting to the board, so having to play a creature every turn is bad times. If I considered another one drop it would be Savannah Lions, but I hate one toughness creatures in this format. Veteran Armorer was briefly considered for the mirror, but I quickly realised that you couldn't rely on it giving you an advantage in combat, because a well-placed burn spell would wreck your efforts.
Anyway, Orcish Artillery is insane in the format as it stands, although I could see a more heavily controlling format where it isn't worth it - for example, it's pretty underwhelming against the Ub control decks. It single-handedly beats BU or BUG aggro if it stays on the table, allows you to establish board superiority in the "mirror", combines with cheap burn spells to burn out big guys like Iwamori, and when you get it going in concert with Boros Guildmage you can pretty much attack into anything. My article discussing the deck on Brainburst should be up within a week or so, the deck will be explained further there.
Pretty good points, but I still think there are better choices than Orcish Artillery .
Goblin Cohort is an extremely underrated card, especially in a deck that is making a consistant creature drops almost every turn. It should be almost attacking almost every turn, and if its not, its still a 2/2 blocker for a single mana.
I think that Orchish Artillery should be SB, since it wins some matches by itself, and is almost worthless in others. Vetran Armorer just seems like a better choice to me.
I'll admit I haven't tested a RDW splashing white, but I have tested a lot of WR weenie, in fact played it before any Ravnica cards even came out. Vetran Armorer is an awesome card IMO, and Cohort is a lot better than people think. Congrats on making this deck, but I still think it would be made better without artillery. I suppose you won't be convinced, but those are my opinions.
In fairness, WR weenie and R/w Aggro are tremendously different..R/w is essentially 'Boros Deck Wins', it's Sligh-esque and runs some white creatures..WR weenie is really white weenie + some burn spells. The double in Artillery makes it a lacking choice for WWr, but, it's fine for Rw, which is mostly red anyway, and doesn't want to run double cards.
As some of you know, I've been away due to computer issues... and I come back to a complete mess.
This thread is going to be closed for a variety of reasons. This has simply turned into one big spam-fest and isn't going anywhere. The people who have tried and attempted to keep things on the ball have been noted, as have the individuals who have caused the closing of this thread.
As there are too many posts to count that deserve warnings, I'm going to lay off for this thread for now. But like I said, those individuals who participated in the degradation of this thread will be watched closely from now on.
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Please tell me he isn't claiming credit for that deck. Tom's first list was posted on 10/10. Quetzilla posted a thread begining on 10/9, in response to multiple wins before then. He can claim credit for the dumb name though.
How sad, really (on both fronts, the fact of you not posting and who the crown has passed to). I actually miss the days of agreeing with you on NOTHING Cyan.
This deck that you refer to is the one that I recommend to people in the format right now who lean away from the Controlish builds. I strongly recommend the build with the Orcish Artillery because of where the format has progressed. The one thing of note is that if you look at the sideboard (in this case, I am citing the Pennsylvania decklist), there are cards (Flames of the Blood Hand, Genju) which are better against Control. In these situations, the Orcish Artillery would be replaced, obviously. However, as the "default" decklist, I would say that Orcish Artillery deserves his spot in the maindeck.
Frankly, I would give the "authority" crown a million times over to Aan over IBTG.
According to this logic, Boseiju and Char are horrible cards too.
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....You really need to work on your sentences. And I have no idea what you're really referring to; Anthem saves your other guys from... Nausea? I guess they'll catch the Hideous Laughter, or something. Wait, what does "saving creatures from destruction" and "winning when you're stalled out" have to do with each other? No, no, nevermind, you must have an excellent reason for comparing those two cards. Just as excellent as your grammar and spelling.
If they've got Anthem, what's stopping me from pointing the Artillery at you? If I'm at 16 and you're at 3, I have no problem taking flak to see you dead in two turns. I guess you're also saying that Last Gasp, Helix, Char, and all those other kill spells obviously make a creature not worth playing. Yeah, with so much creature removal, it's obviously stupid to run creatures that can be removed. That's why we're running creatures.
Hey, I can string phrases together with no punctuation too its so easy but I really don't see how this is beneficial to anyone understanding see because you have no idea of the sentence structure without reading through the thing five times but who would read five times the same thing amirite?
I don't know how you've got me saying that I run Artillery over Anthem. What, there's not enough room for both?
I hear that Glorious Anthem is a card that you should run in Burning Skies. Not sure why you're talking about that deck, though...
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Did you even look at the deck in question? How th **** do you play anthem in a deck that is splashing white. Get it through your head this is not WW/r it's R/w aggro.
Love this argument. If you don't have anything to say then don't say anything. You just basically "I don't believe anything you say it's true even though I know **** of what I'm talking about". I you want to act childishly then expect to be treated like a child.
Yay sarcasm For some reason, my head tells me that all those cards were probably present at the evnts this deck top 4'd and yet it did well. Maybe there's a reason for that?
Until someone can give evidence of this card doing anything in a deck other than Kjins Rw aggro or any non boros guildmage/genju of the spires aggro then it stays on the table as bad.
The only reason the card see's play in Rw aggro is because Rw aggro is heavy red, so it can support double red on turn three. Also, it serves as 2 to the dome every turn or a path clear for a 6/1 mountain. The card only does it's job in THIS DECK and no other.
Unless of course someone wants to use results and matchup analysis to prove me wrong...
Well, since I realized how really wrong I was about Top, I've tried to be alot more open-minded about stuff, particularly stuff that people from MT say. And anyway, it's just here that we don't post, we both still post on 'news.
Me too. I'd give it to him over myself, and anyone that I know really...there are obviously probably thousands of people that are more of an authority on T2 than any of us. The problem is that, he(AanAllein) doesn't really post here(not that you can really blame him, look what a warm reception he's gotten)..and of course people will listen to someone just because they see that person's name alot, even if that person is wrong frequently, vs. someone whom doesn't post this often. You would think that people on Magic Forums would normally be very amicable to any idea that might be good, since it'd help them improve..but generally it seems to not work this way, people just thumb their noses at alot. I think that the Billy Moreno thing yesterday is a good example of the wonder that is magic forum posters. On the mtg.com forums, everyone was bagging on him for the entirety of his match vs. Ruel, about what an awful player he is, and so on...of course, the fact that he was busy making 20K for playing Magic while they were sitting at home posting about how awful he was really escaped them. Admittedly, he made alot of mistakes and simply cheated(intentionally or not) a couple of times, but the way that people in general on magic forums treat people sometimes is just ridiculous. This thread is a prime example..a guy can't even present an idea without people completely making fun of him. Nevermind that it's a GOOD idea. Plus, arguing on these forums seems pointless, it's so rare that anyone is ever like 'yeah you might be right', they just dismiss ideas out of hand w/o stopping to think about it.
The problem is that a certain fall-out of logic happens. It's simply true that States isn't really a valid argument for determining how good a deck is, etcetera...in general. But when only 4 people play a deck, and they all T4 with it, even if it's just at States, that still says something. Similarly, States will still give you a rough idea of what the Tiers will be, just not a 'set in stone' idea, and States won't make/break any decks..IE: People played MUC at States and did well with it, ensuring that it will be a Tier-1 deck. But, people also played Battle of Wits at States and some did weill with it..however, it's probably not better than Tier-2. You have to be able to discern the fact that some decks can do well at a tournament like States because they're 'rogue', but, in a really competitive tournament, even just PTQs, your chances of succeeding with a 'rogue' deck are significantly lower. Of course, too many people don't realize that not everything that doesn't get played alot is rogue..when you take an existing archetype and just make a different variation of it, that's not a rogue deck...rogue is like..Eminent Domain.
Anyway..back to lurking here and not posting, just wanted to make these non-strategy related comments, mostly because I thought that it was funny that you said that you enjoy not agreeing with me on things Who wants to disagree with people, heh.
Remedy4Destruction: Saying that some cards are only good in certain decks, thus making them bad cards, isn't a realistic argument. That's like saying that Yawgmoth's Will is bad because you can't play it in decks that run alot of creatures. That's an inaccurate statement. Some cards just have to have synergy with the deck that they're in. The only cards that you can just randomly throw in any deck(IMO) are A)card draw and B)removal. And even then, you have to justify running whatever color they're in if you're not running it already.
The only reason the card see's play in creature decks is because creature decks have targets, so it can support using it on turn three....The card only does it's job in THOSE DECKS and no other.
According to your logic, and using your sentence, Jitte is a "bad" card because it can only be used with decks with creatures.
Not to mention "clearing for a 6/1" mountain isn't exactly a "bad" thing.
Nice job.
As you pointed out, we used to be on the other side of things (I think you actually mentioned it at one point), and we discussed them constructively. That's why you disagree with people =).
Northern Ohio Gamers Forums
OA doesn't work in every deck, but it can be a very good card in the right deck. It's a viable card for today's metagame. Whether that will continue to be true remains to be seen.
Where I play, people play a ton of rats. OA just murders rats. lol...
Currently 62/265 cards.
My post was directed at the topic creator in saying it is NOT good in a deck like WR control. I'm quite aware it is good in Rw aggro.
Good is just a matter of opinion, good can mean effictive to some people and broken to others, so flaming someone for saying its a good/bad card isn't really necessary.
Good is also relative to the deck it is being played in. Jitte is in fact crap in a creatureless deck. Yawgmoth's will is bad in deck with 0 black sources.
In this topic, the creator asked if OA was secret tech for CONTROL, not Rw aggro.
The short answer: No
The long answer: a WR control deck has better mor efficent answers to small creatures such as pyroclasm and the like. Running a 1/3 2 a turn at a cost of 3 to yourself type creature is a wasted slot, espically with the 8+ board sweepers you should be running.
I'm quite aware OA works wonders in Rw aggro deck, that was the entire point of my post kashmyr.
Well, if you skipped everything in between, I guess that could work. However, we've been long past the consideration of it in W/R Control and currently there's been insistence among quite a few that Orcish Artillery has no place in any competitive Type 2 deck, period.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
As is we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I hope some of you will realize that this card is just meh.
By all your defenitions that you are supposedly bashing me with Mortipede is good, Higari is good.... I mean once again worlds will tell all.
AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE QUIT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH AND SHOW ME SOME RESULTS....... YOU CAN SIT HERE AND BASH ME ALL DAY BUT YOU KEEP SEEMING TO SKIP OVER THE IMPORTANT QUESTION.
Obviously none of you are lawyers because you would know the prosecuter must prove the idea correct its not the defendants job to prove it wrong.(and yes its the exact same for magic)
-TotT
ooOoooOOoh, let's travel to the future in order to satisfy you.
Because you obviously tested it and are asking us for results just to be seconded.
Well, by your definition Forest is stupid, Swamp is stupid, Hypnotic Specter is stupid... I mean, States can run crap cards, but that doesn't stop them from running cards that work, too.
What results? You want us to post up a gamelog of every time Orcish Artillery happened to pop up, or something? Or the numerical records of how many times a deck with Orcish Artillery won? Stop beating around the bush and ask more clearly.
Last I checked, we provided the most prominent evidence, States, and you dismissed it as irrelevant.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
Do you seriuosly think that what you're saying here means anything. It's already been said how OA is a good card in the deck and your argument for it being bad is because a crappy card also top8ed states. Seriously now.
Oh you mean the aforementioned 4 top4's in all 4 states the deck was played in plus the article that should come up soon that Aanallein already mentioned.
Obviously you know nothing about being a lawyer since you would know that an argument is not the same as an opinion.
So to summarize your post:
Please stop whining now.
Don't you have to sit down in order to type unless you're at one of those gimpy public library computers?
The Artillery removes chump blockers in a deck that does not run too many fliers. This is GOOD. The Artillery can deal those final points of damage and keep up pressure against control decks who have stalled out the ground. This is GOOD. You for some odd reason refuse to look at these points and instead wish to hear "results," which in your definition is people accounting how Orcish Artillery pwned in some conditional event, and that a four-of never saw play throughout a tournament that spanned a good number of MATCHES...
Yeah, I'm not the person who ran the deck in the States Top4. Thus, I can't "awnser" (since you'll accuse me of libel if I misquote you, eh?) your simple question which actually isn't able to be "awnser"ed by anyone BUT the player who ran the deck in that tournament.
Oh but WAIT. Orcish Artillery was in STATES! That means it's just like MORTIPEDE. Yes, a 3B creature from Ravnica is comparable to a 1RR creature in 9th edition because... um... they're CREATURES! Who cares if they're different in rarity, power/toughness, abilities, mana cost, and all that other important stuff. Since they were both run in States, obviously cards run in States like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Leonin Skyhunter, and Orcish Artillery were utter crap. Oh, and Higure was crap too, even though nobody in the top 8's ran him.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
On a side note, your idea of libel is hugely inaccurate, unless you're of the mind that him 'misquoting' you(actually taking something you said out of context, which is not illegal anyway) is going to 'defame' your real life persona and cause you some kind of physical/monetary loss. Somehow, that seems unlikely.
TotT, honestly, you know so little about Competitive T2. I'm not trying to be rude, but, I'm tired of your arrogant attitude. Your idea of the 'Tiers' was soooo far off base that I could have listed what I thought the Tiers would be for Tier 1 in Vintage and been closer than you were. Stop treating everyone like crap and acting like you know so much, when in reality, you don't. People come here to have civil, rational conversations, not to listen to arrogant prattle from people that haven't shown that they know anything at all about the format under discussion. You have zero credibility, yet you're acting like everyone has to prove everything to you. You can't even come up with your own examples/logic, you have to use flawed examples that IBTG used earlier...it's ridiculous, I dunno why anyone even responds to you.
Pretty good points, but I still think there are better choices than Orcish Artillery .
Goblin Cohort is an extremely underrated card, especially in a deck that is making a consistant creature drops almost every turn. It should be almost attacking almost every turn, and if its not, its still a 2/2 blocker for a single mana.
I think that Orchish Artillery should be SB, since it wins some matches by itself, and is almost worthless in others. Vetran Armorer just seems like a better choice to me.
I'll admit I haven't tested a RDW splashing white, but I have tested a lot of WR weenie, in fact played it before any Ravnica cards even came out. Vetran Armorer is an awesome card IMO, and Cohort is a lot better than people think. Congrats on making this deck, but I still think it would be made better without artillery. I suppose you won't be convinced, but those are my opinions.
This thread is going to be closed for a variety of reasons. This has simply turned into one big spam-fest and isn't going anywhere. The people who have tried and attempted to keep things on the ball have been noted, as have the individuals who have caused the closing of this thread.
As there are too many posts to count that deserve warnings, I'm going to lay off for this thread for now. But like I said, those individuals who participated in the degradation of this thread will be watched closely from now on.