abunas is in no way better than Kira...but anyway.
The second option seems better..it runs the relevant creatures, and you just SB the other ones. Trisk/Vampire don't seem that relevant at all right now.
Are you kidding me? Kira means Angel is so much easier to be killed than Abunas. Abunas is easier to cast, too.
Are you kidding me? Kira means Angel is so much easier to be killed than Abunas. Abunas is easier to cast, too.
You seriously need to think before you type.
How is the angel so much to harder to kill with the abunas? Take a moment to think about the ways to kill abunas + angel / kira + angel
1) Spot removal : (rend flesh, horobi, dark banishing)
For AA, One needs to kill off abunas first, then kill angel. For kira, you target angel twice. For both situation, after the angel dies, you're left with one creature.
Except, for kira, you have a 2/2 flier with built in protection for other creatures you'll T&N
2) Board wiper (d.cloud / wrath of god) : SAME result
3) Barter in blood : SAME result.
4) Burn spells : What spells in type two does 4+ damage other than shrapnel blast? You have to target the angel once before you can shrapnel blast it out of the sky. Even if you DO have two shrapnels in hand, then the result is STILL the same as you shrapnel blast the leonin, then angel with AA, or Shrapnel the angel twice with KA. The difference is, you have a 2/2 flier with built in protection vs spot removals / burn spells.
Like I pointed out a few times now, Pyroclasm and Hideous Laughter are your concerns with Kira. They'll still need a 2nd spell to finish the Angel, leaving you with the SAME 2-for-2 if they'd nailed the Abunas THEN Angel anyway.
FYI, Electrostatic Bolt kills Angel flat-out with the 4 damage. I'd run it if weenie were big in my environment.
Realizing that 2-for-2 anyway... I'm hard pressed to think up situations where Abunas is better than Kira, other than as a 5 toughness blocker.
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Normal builds of T&N can't ever hard-cast Abunas anyway, so, it's not really easier to cast. Both cards are impossible to cast.
The point is that Kira is better against MUC, which is considered the top deck right now, than Abunas is. Other cards are less relevant, being strong against MUC is what matters.
As other people have illustrated, Angel is not any easier/more difficult to kill either way..it's going to take you two cards no matter what...so that point is totally moot. But Kira has flying, and protects your other guys. As has been said, the only real drawback is that you can't make copies of stuff w/ KikiJiki..but you should be boarding him out against MUC anyway, making Kira a very logical inclusion to find.
I can't belive you people are arguing over Kira/Angel abunus/angel
Ok so what with Kira they can't bounce your creatures with their boomrang which is good against MUC ill give you that.
Abunus is a 2/5 blocker that can't be klled by ssimilar board sweepers that are now very commen in the evenviortment such as hideous laughter or pyroclasm.
THE POINT IS THAT THERE IS TO MUCH BOARD SWEPERS IN THE ENVIORMENT THAT ABNUS IS MUCH BETTER THEN KIRA END OF STORY.
Well unless MUC gives you trouble I played Tooth to a 1st place at JSS and i had no problem whatsoever with MUC but then again its a JSS:grin2:
Yeah, you must play in a different environment than everyone else. I look at competitive decks and decklists, and I see extremely minimal amounts of board sweepers. Also, if it's a REAL board sweeper, it'll kill Abunas anyway. The only 'board sweepers' that would kill Kira but not Abunas are Pyroclasm and Flamebreak. Pyroclasm isn't really relevant, as T&N doesn't have alot of trouble vs. Aggro-Red. Flamebreak is only featured in Ponza, which generally demolishes T&N anyway...so that's not exactly relevant. Hideous Laughter shouldn't factor into the equation at all..only MBC runs it, and that deck is so awful that it shouldn't even be played. Certainly, T&N demolishes it. The point is that Kira is better against MUC, which is an infinitely more difficult matchup than anything else.
I agree with Cyan on this, Kira is so much better in this format. Anubis just isn't that great anymore Kira seems so much better. It takes them 2 removal spells to get rid of it still and you still have a creature in play.
Kira won't die much at all, all the decks right now run little to no mass removal, sometimes you will see Pyroclasm and even less played Flamebreak. But lets face it Ponza won't matter anyways, and if you were able to Tooth, you prolly have game anyways.
Now, I'm not one to be rude or make condescending connections between misguided opinions and grammar as a sign of a user's intelligence, but...
1337:
""TO MUCH"" - too
""TO MUCH BOARD SWEPERS"" - too many
""BETTER THEN"" - better THAN
Now, to get to the actual case this guy presents...
Abunus is a 2/5 blocker that can't be klled by ssimilar board sweepers that are now very commen in the evenviortment such as hideous laughter or pyroclasm.
--... You have a lot of spelling errors too, do you even try? Gah, whatever...
I already listed those 2 whole cards, neither of which Colossus cares about. Generally speaking, you should be going for Kira + Colossus if you're going the safety route. Otherwise, Kiki + Colossus, Kiki + Titan, Kiki + Duplicant, or Vamp + Trike. Abunas + Angel should only be pursued in instances where stalling is your concern.
(BTW, in the mirror a Kiki + Duplicant would PWN Abunas + Colossus/Angel on the same turn they drop. Trike + Vamp also PWNs Abunas + Angel.)
Cyan: Flamebreak is only featured in Ponza, which generally demolishes T&N anyway...so that's not exactly relevant. Hideous Laughter shouldn't factor into the equation at all..only MBC runs it, and that deck is so awful that it shouldn't even be played. Certainly, T&N demolishes it. The point is that Kira is better against MUC, which is an infinitely more difficult matchup than anything else.
--I actually wanted to work on a pure Burn deck for T2, that included Flamebreaks over Pyroclasms. In any event, I never really understood what "Ponza" was supposed to mean. I mean, I know its Red LD and all, but the label just never made much sense. Personally, I think G/R has it beat on speed, consistency, and flexibility. But yeh, LD says T&N is boned unless T&N's turn 2 drop is Sacred Ground.
Initially, my suggestion of Kira was basically just as an altnerative to Abunas for decks packing targetting removal. It never actually occured to me that Kira might prove better by many environmental standards. Besides, if you suspect they're packing weenie-kill like that, just drop 2 Colossi on them if you run 2. Good luck to Red or Black trying to kill BOTH. Obviously, T&N is a toolbox, so you don't DO stupid things like throw Kira in front of cards that are certain to kill her, duh.
To contribute a bit more to the toolbox, what about Kodama of the North Tree? 6/4 Trample isn't exactly 11/11 Trample... but trading Indestructibility for non-targetability can be pretty decent vs MUC since I don't think MUC runs any 4+ power creatures. Plus, it's Green, so it can be manually dropped with ease. If MUC is the most problematic matchup, it might prove very useful to have something like KotNT. Plated Slagwurm is less appealing without the Trample.
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Kodama isn't worth it IMO... Colossus hardly gets shackled (never has for me anyway...) so the only thing that is irritating is bounce and such. Kodama is a lot weaker, can't be kikied... but it can't be duplicated either.
My big problem with it is hardcasting it... I'll have an easier time getting 11 mana as opposed to that 2GGG for a large portion of the time, since i like searching out urzatrons a lot.
Personally right now we should be worried about ponza. Ponza has a extremely good match up against us (if your playing an experice player) Not even sacred ground can save TnN. If your playing a good ponza build they will board in culling scales. From my playtesting these are the cards that are MVP's in this match up
1st game
kodama's reach
tribe elder
vine trellis
witness(for chumping and getting land back)
A/A team
2nd game
troll
witness
kodama's reach
tribe elder
vine trellis
A/A team
(optional)
extration( for sowing salts or threats like sloggers)
T/V is horrible in this match-up. Sure you get rid of all there creatures but now they'll pulse you for the win. It takes alot for ponza to kill A/A team.
It takes MORE for Ponza to kill 2x Colossus, or 2x Titan... but it's irrelevant if they rip off your mana base clothing, bend you over, and... well, never mind. I'll leave the imagery to those with vivid imaginations.
I don't think T&N has a prayer vs U/G Ponza. Accel into turn 2 LD can just about end any game, and the ability of Naturalize and Creeping Mold to dispose of stupid things like Sacred Ground can make sure the T&N player doesn't Ben the game.
A smart Ponza player hits the Forests if a Trellis doesn't come down. No GG means no Tooth, no Witness, and no Troll. No Forests locks the deck down aside from a BS Colossus drop.
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Then What deck is better against ponza: tron or 12post?
tron has the speed and can easily reach tron. But dies if your opponent goes after your forests(most of the time). If you have tron and someone salts your tower you lose all your bonas mana from tron.
while 12post has plenty of green mana sources. If I have 3 cloudposts out and 1 gets salted, I still have bonas mana I can use from the other cloudposts. But it is slow.
When affinity was around tron was the best choice, but now 12post might come back. Here is a build that I thought up of and considering to playtest it to see how it does. Tell me wut you think.
4 tribe elder
3 eternal witness
1 angel
1 abunas
1 DSC
1 titan
1 kiki
1 duplicant
4 sylvan scrying
2 reap and sow
3 sensei's diving top
4 tooth and nail
2 oblivion stone
3 kodama's reach
4 plow under
2 rude awakening
4 cloudpost
1 stalking stone
1 city of brass
1 okina
1 boseiju
15 forest
RG LD doesn't have that much of a game against T&N anyway...it just doesn't have enough early game steam(no possible turn 1 Slith, turn 2 LD, etc) to really keep T&N from stabilizing.
Oddly enough I haven't noticed much of a problem against ponza. Sure, they salt me, but at least half the time I seem to pull through it and Tooth anyway, get Vamp/Trike, game over. I haven't noticed a real serious problem matchup, my deck has just undergone a bit of reconstruction for the past couple weeks and isn't doing as well at the moment. The majority of Tooth players around here are abandoning the deck (within the last two weeks I've traded two people substantially in my favor for pretty much their entire Tooth decks and turned around and sold the pieces) and I think it'll allow me to act almost as a rogue deck now, with people not really worrying too much about sideboarding because there's only one serious tooth player left in our store (me, of course).
The results of my testing over the past couple weeks: I'm sticking with the mono-g tron build, it just works for me. My Tooth team is Kiki, Titan, DSC, Dup, T/V. The Simulacrums have become Trellises, the MD Plows have become Tops, I moved Boseiju to the main and dropped the Scryings to 3, dropped the Abunas out of the board and put in two Rudes. Tonight's the first time I'll actually be putting all of those things together, I'll try to write up a mini-tourney report with my decklist tomorrow.
I know this is highly debated, but I'd say take out those bloody Divining Tops. But if you love them, don't get into an argument about it... it has been done to death.
Otherwise, I would definitely try and fit the trellises in, and also take out a forest for an okina, since it is a titan-proof land. I also might MD boseiju if blue is heavy in your area.
Me personally, I keep trolls in the sideboard, but I don't use them maindeck. I'd suggest taking out rude awakening and replace vamp/trike with platinum/abunas as the A team is harder to take down, and also WILL win you the game if they can't bring an answer to it. Those would be something I would look into. Just try them out, I think you'd like it.
Just try changing up those tops and a rude for x4 vine trellis, I think you'd like it.
Hydra: Then What deck is better against ponza: tron or 12post?
--This has been discussed. Post EASILY, since it relies much less heavily on nonbasic lands and land search, allowing even things like Kodama's Reach to get land advantage.
Of course, I'll bet an obscene amount of money you're going to say Tron under the misguided logic that Cloudposts are somehow slower. (Don't worry, just about everyone does. Then again, people like Divining Top and Chrome Mox... so what does that say?)
tron has the speed and can easily reach tron. But dies if your opponent goes after your forests(most of the time). If you have tron and someone salts your tower you lose all your bonas mana from tron.
while 12post has plenty of green mana sources. If I have 3 cloudposts out and 1 gets salted, I still have bonas mana I can use from the other cloudposts. But it is slow.
--Newtype'd. The simple fact is that your 3rd Post, even tapped, allows the other 2 to hit for 3 mana each on THAT turn. But, let's assume you're barely hitting 2 posts... that's STILL 2 each once the 2nd untaps, and it allows for a much more STABLE deck and the opportunity to MUCH more easily splash for an effective and useful 2nd color.
In all fairness, you weren't very harsh on the Posts. I applaud your relative open-mindedness.
~~~
Cyan: RG LD doesn't have that much of a game against T&N anyway...it just doesn't have enough early game steam(no possible turn 1 Slith, turn 2 LD, etc) to really keep T&N from stabilizing.
--With someone like a certain unnamed mod building it, you're probably right. Then again, I easily dismantled all his claims and clearly demonstrated increased consistency and speed with a solid G/R build than MonoR could EVER hope to achieve (without resorting to sacrificing 2-3 cards' worth of advantage).
No one seems to be intelligent enough to comprehend the simple fact that Birds of Paradise turn 1 AND Evlish Pioneer gives R/G 8 turn 1 players to accelerate into turn 2 LD WITHOUT losing any additional cards.
By comparison, MonoR needs its 4/60 Chrome Moxes (1/15 chance) to show up in starting hand. 7.5 average starting hand size, that's ONLY 50% likelyhood of even getting a Mox to open up with. If you need to Mull, that's a free card for the opponent. If you pitch a card to the Mox, that's a free card for the opponent. If you Mull AND Pitch, that's 2 free cards for the opponent.
With 8/60 ways, that's 2/15, or 1/7.5, with 7.5 being average starting hand. In other words, on average, you'll get your turn 2 LD each game. (On average.) THIS turn 2 LD gives 0 free cards, meaning you're going to typically have 1-2 more cards than monoR can hope for, leaving MORE room for MORE lands, MORE spells, and MORE control.
Turn 1 Slith is nifty and all, but it's a 1/4 chance WITHOUT Mulligan. For a deck that's all about its opening game, those kinda odds are junk. If you're looking at a 50-75% Mull rate to get desired results, you built the deck wrong. LD can only be successful with firm and relentless pressure, which you needs CARDS to do. If you're giving away 1-2+ cards in advantage to the opponent, then pressure becomes near-impossible to maintain since you will very soon exhaust all your resources.
So... what exactly is lacking in the early game of R/G?
Of course, this applies to any deck. It's part of that whole game theory of Tempo. Aggressive LD tempo is terrific and evil, but it accomplishes very little when you burn out of your hand very quickly and the opponent has a chance to recover. Worse yet, when you run a bunch of Sloggers and Plow Unders to screw up your mana curve, Rude Awakenings too.
Nope, it's not the R/G early game that's lacking... it is the intelligence of anyone trying to USE it that's lacking.
~~~
CM: I know this is highly debated, but I'd say take out those bloody Divining Tops. But if you love them, don't get into an argument about it... it has been done to death.
--You mean the 1-less, destructible, cannot put cards below the library... version of Darksteel Pendant?
On the plus side for the Top, the sperior Scry cards and Pendant will be rotating out this summer. Still, if I'm gonna pay 1 mana each turn for a library peek, I'd rather have an Indestructible artifact that can get RID of cards I don't want or need.
Anyone who uses the "draw" ability of the Top for any reason other than to set off their combo on that same turn... is crazy.
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:: Cloudpost
The entire build involving Cloudpost demands an entirely different use of tempo, as it renders turn 2 plays like Vine Trellis and Sakura-Tribe Elder useless, and those Top-Lovers can't break out the "OMG THIS SO WINS THE GAME FOR ME!!" card first turn. In other words, it trades early tempo for stability, fewer deckslots, and more resilience.
:: RG LD
Aren't you like, one of the few people using that deck? Just so you know, that thread's unlocked. Has been for a while now.
:: Sensei's Divining Top
I've seen tricks involving stacking the Index, drawing a card, putting the Top on top, and moving it to the bottom of the three cards, but in all honesty, Tel-Jilad Justice would probably be more useful.
:: Chrome Mox
Chrome Mox is the only way for certain aggressive builds to do things on the first turn they shouldn't be able to, though it certainly isn't universal, and definitely does not belong in T&N.
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Then run forests instead of Top. Statistically, you'd draw a Forest when you need it instead of a Top to look for Forets.
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Then you have become too reliant on the top three cards of your library. The only thing that would truly make a difference is an Indexed Tooth and Nail. Searching for anything else with the Top can be done better by other cards.
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Oh, I don't know, maybe another four cards that actually WIN YOU THE GAME? Sylvan Scrying/Elder should fix your mana period. Meanwhile, you can fit something in that actually does something with those four slots taken up by a card that is made to search for a card out of a choice of three cards.
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Are you kidding me? Kira means Angel is so much easier to be killed than Abunas. Abunas is easier to cast, too.
You seriously need to think before you type.
How is the angel so much to harder to kill with the abunas? Take a moment to think about the ways to kill abunas + angel / kira + angel
1) Spot removal : (rend flesh, horobi, dark banishing)
For AA, One needs to kill off abunas first, then kill angel. For kira, you target angel twice. For both situation, after the angel dies, you're left with one creature.
Except, for kira, you have a 2/2 flier with built in protection for other creatures you'll T&N
2) Board wiper (d.cloud / wrath of god) : SAME result
3) Barter in blood : SAME result.
4) Burn spells : What spells in type two does 4+ damage other than shrapnel blast? You have to target the angel once before you can shrapnel blast it out of the sky. Even if you DO have two shrapnels in hand, then the result is STILL the same as you shrapnel blast the leonin, then angel with AA, or Shrapnel the angel twice with KA. The difference is, you have a 2/2 flier with built in protection vs spot removals / burn spells.
FYI, Electrostatic Bolt kills Angel flat-out with the 4 damage. I'd run it if weenie were big in my environment.
Realizing that 2-for-2 anyway... I'm hard pressed to think up situations where Abunas is better than Kira, other than as a 5 toughness blocker.
-Blue Cosmos
The point is that Kira is better against MUC, which is considered the top deck right now, than Abunas is. Other cards are less relevant, being strong against MUC is what matters.
As other people have illustrated, Angel is not any easier/more difficult to kill either way..it's going to take you two cards no matter what...so that point is totally moot. But Kira has flying, and protects your other guys. As has been said, the only real drawback is that you can't make copies of stuff w/ KikiJiki..but you should be boarding him out against MUC anyway, making Kira a very logical inclusion to find.
Ok so what with Kira they can't bounce your creatures with their boomrang which is good against MUC ill give you that.
Abunus is a 2/5 blocker that can't be klled by ssimilar board sweepers that are now very commen in the evenviortment such as hideous laughter or pyroclasm.
THE POINT IS THAT THERE IS TO MUCH BOARD SWEPERS IN THE ENVIORMENT THAT ABNUS IS MUCH BETTER THEN KIRA END OF STORY.
Well unless MUC gives you trouble I played Tooth to a 1st place at JSS and i had no problem whatsoever with MUC but then again its a JSS:grin2:
Kira won't die much at all, all the decks right now run little to no mass removal, sometimes you will see Pyroclasm and even less played Flamebreak. But lets face it Ponza won't matter anyways, and if you were able to Tooth, you prolly have game anyways.
1337:
""TO MUCH"" - too
""TO MUCH BOARD SWEPERS"" - too many
""BETTER THEN"" - better THAN
Now, to get to the actual case this guy presents...
Abunus is a 2/5 blocker that can't be klled by ssimilar board sweepers that are now very commen in the evenviortment such as hideous laughter or pyroclasm.
--... You have a lot of spelling errors too, do you even try? Gah, whatever...
I already listed those 2 whole cards, neither of which Colossus cares about. Generally speaking, you should be going for Kira + Colossus if you're going the safety route. Otherwise, Kiki + Colossus, Kiki + Titan, Kiki + Duplicant, or Vamp + Trike. Abunas + Angel should only be pursued in instances where stalling is your concern.
(BTW, in the mirror a Kiki + Duplicant would PWN Abunas + Colossus/Angel on the same turn they drop. Trike + Vamp also PWNs Abunas + Angel.)
Cyan:
Flamebreak is only featured in Ponza, which generally demolishes T&N anyway...so that's not exactly relevant. Hideous Laughter shouldn't factor into the equation at all..only MBC runs it, and that deck is so awful that it shouldn't even be played. Certainly, T&N demolishes it. The point is that Kira is better against MUC, which is an infinitely more difficult matchup than anything else.
--I actually wanted to work on a pure Burn deck for T2, that included Flamebreaks over Pyroclasms. In any event, I never really understood what "Ponza" was supposed to mean. I mean, I know its Red LD and all, but the label just never made much sense. Personally, I think G/R has it beat on speed, consistency, and flexibility. But yeh, LD says T&N is boned unless T&N's turn 2 drop is Sacred Ground.
Initially, my suggestion of Kira was basically just as an altnerative to Abunas for decks packing targetting removal. It never actually occured to me that Kira might prove better by many environmental standards. Besides, if you suspect they're packing weenie-kill like that, just drop 2 Colossi on them if you run 2. Good luck to Red or Black trying to kill BOTH. Obviously, T&N is a toolbox, so you don't DO stupid things like throw Kira in front of cards that are certain to kill her, duh.
To contribute a bit more to the toolbox, what about Kodama of the North Tree? 6/4 Trample isn't exactly 11/11 Trample... but trading Indestructibility for non-targetability can be pretty decent vs MUC since I don't think MUC runs any 4+ power creatures. Plus, it's Green, so it can be manually dropped with ease. If MUC is the most problematic matchup, it might prove very useful to have something like KotNT. Plated Slagwurm is less appealing without the Trample.
-Blue Cosmos
My big problem with it is hardcasting it... I'll have an easier time getting 11 mana as opposed to that 2GGG for a large portion of the time, since i like searching out urzatrons a lot.
1st game
kodama's reach
tribe elder
vine trellis
witness(for chumping and getting land back)
A/A team
2nd game
troll
witness
kodama's reach
tribe elder
vine trellis
A/A team
(optional)
extration( for sowing salts or threats like sloggers)
T/V is horrible in this match-up. Sure you get rid of all there creatures but now they'll pulse you for the win. It takes alot for ponza to kill A/A team.
I don't think T&N has a prayer vs U/G Ponza. Accel into turn 2 LD can just about end any game, and the ability of Naturalize and Creeping Mold to dispose of stupid things like Sacred Ground can make sure the T&N player doesn't Ben the game.
A smart Ponza player hits the Forests if a Trellis doesn't come down. No GG means no Tooth, no Witness, and no Troll. No Forests locks the deck down aside from a BS Colossus drop.
-Blue Cosmos
tron has the speed and can easily reach tron. But dies if your opponent goes after your forests(most of the time). If you have tron and someone salts your tower you lose all your bonas mana from tron.
while 12post has plenty of green mana sources. If I have 3 cloudposts out and 1 gets salted, I still have bonas mana I can use from the other cloudposts. But it is slow.
When affinity was around tron was the best choice, but now 12post might come back. Here is a build that I thought up of and considering to playtest it to see how it does. Tell me wut you think.
4 tribe elder
3 eternal witness
1 angel
1 abunas
1 DSC
1 titan
1 kiki
1 duplicant
4 sylvan scrying
2 reap and sow
3 sensei's diving top
4 tooth and nail
2 oblivion stone
3 kodama's reach
4 plow under
2 rude awakening
4 cloudpost
1 stalking stone
1 city of brass
1 okina
1 boseiju
15 forest
SB
4 troll ascetic
3 cranial extraction
1 titan
2 reap and sow
3 naturlize
1 witness
1 swamp
NVM i've been testing this for a while and it doesn't real well. Plz disreguard the last message.
Use the , please.
The results of my testing over the past couple weeks: I'm sticking with the mono-g tron build, it just works for me. My Tooth team is Kiki, Titan, DSC, Dup, T/V. The Simulacrums have become Trellises, the MD Plows have become Tops, I moved Boseiju to the main and dropped the Scryings to 3, dropped the Abunas out of the board and put in two Rudes. Tonight's the first time I'll actually be putting all of those things together, I'll try to write up a mini-tourney report with my decklist tomorrow.
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Otherwise, I would definitely try and fit the trellises in, and also take out a forest for an okina, since it is a titan-proof land. I also might MD boseiju if blue is heavy in your area.
Me personally, I keep trolls in the sideboard, but I don't use them maindeck. I'd suggest taking out rude awakening and replace vamp/trike with platinum/abunas as the A team is harder to take down, and also WILL win you the game if they can't bring an answer to it. Those would be something I would look into. Just try them out, I think you'd like it.
Just try changing up those tops and a rude for x4 vine trellis, I think you'd like it.
Then What deck is better against ponza: tron or 12post?
--This has been discussed. Post EASILY, since it relies much less heavily on nonbasic lands and land search, allowing even things like Kodama's Reach to get land advantage.
Of course, I'll bet an obscene amount of money you're going to say Tron under the misguided logic that Cloudposts are somehow slower. (Don't worry, just about everyone does. Then again, people like Divining Top and Chrome Mox... so what does that say?)
tron has the speed and can easily reach tron. But dies if your opponent goes after your forests(most of the time). If you have tron and someone salts your tower you lose all your bonas mana from tron.
while 12post has plenty of green mana sources. If I have 3 cloudposts out and 1 gets salted, I still have bonas mana I can use from the other cloudposts. But it is slow.
--Newtype'd. The simple fact is that your 3rd Post, even tapped, allows the other 2 to hit for 3 mana each on THAT turn. But, let's assume you're barely hitting 2 posts... that's STILL 2 each once the 2nd untaps, and it allows for a much more STABLE deck and the opportunity to MUCH more easily splash for an effective and useful 2nd color.
In all fairness, you weren't very harsh on the Posts. I applaud your relative open-mindedness.
~~~
Cyan:
RG LD doesn't have that much of a game against T&N anyway...it just doesn't have enough early game steam(no possible turn 1 Slith, turn 2 LD, etc) to really keep T&N from stabilizing.
--With someone like a certain unnamed mod building it, you're probably right. Then again, I easily dismantled all his claims and clearly demonstrated increased consistency and speed with a solid G/R build than MonoR could EVER hope to achieve (without resorting to sacrificing 2-3 cards' worth of advantage).
No one seems to be intelligent enough to comprehend the simple fact that Birds of Paradise turn 1 AND Evlish Pioneer gives R/G 8 turn 1 players to accelerate into turn 2 LD WITHOUT losing any additional cards.
By comparison, MonoR needs its 4/60 Chrome Moxes (1/15 chance) to show up in starting hand. 7.5 average starting hand size, that's ONLY 50% likelyhood of even getting a Mox to open up with. If you need to Mull, that's a free card for the opponent. If you pitch a card to the Mox, that's a free card for the opponent. If you Mull AND Pitch, that's 2 free cards for the opponent.
With 8/60 ways, that's 2/15, or 1/7.5, with 7.5 being average starting hand. In other words, on average, you'll get your turn 2 LD each game. (On average.) THIS turn 2 LD gives 0 free cards, meaning you're going to typically have 1-2 more cards than monoR can hope for, leaving MORE room for MORE lands, MORE spells, and MORE control.
Turn 1 Slith is nifty and all, but it's a 1/4 chance WITHOUT Mulligan. For a deck that's all about its opening game, those kinda odds are junk. If you're looking at a 50-75% Mull rate to get desired results, you built the deck wrong. LD can only be successful with firm and relentless pressure, which you needs CARDS to do. If you're giving away 1-2+ cards in advantage to the opponent, then pressure becomes near-impossible to maintain since you will very soon exhaust all your resources.
So... what exactly is lacking in the early game of R/G?
Of course, this applies to any deck. It's part of that whole game theory of Tempo. Aggressive LD tempo is terrific and evil, but it accomplishes very little when you burn out of your hand very quickly and the opponent has a chance to recover. Worse yet, when you run a bunch of Sloggers and Plow Unders to screw up your mana curve, Rude Awakenings too.
Nope, it's not the R/G early game that's lacking... it is the intelligence of anyone trying to USE it that's lacking.
~~~
CM:
I know this is highly debated, but I'd say take out those bloody Divining Tops. But if you love them, don't get into an argument about it... it has been done to death.
--You mean the 1-less, destructible, cannot put cards below the library... version of Darksteel Pendant?
On the plus side for the Top, the sperior Scry cards and Pendant will be rotating out this summer. Still, if I'm gonna pay 1 mana each turn for a library peek, I'd rather have an Indestructible artifact that can get RID of cards I don't want or need.
Anyone who uses the "draw" ability of the Top for any reason other than to set off their combo on that same turn... is crazy.
-Blue Cosmos
The entire build involving Cloudpost demands an entirely different use of tempo, as it renders turn 2 plays like Vine Trellis and Sakura-Tribe Elder useless, and those Top-Lovers can't break out the "OMG THIS SO WINS THE GAME FOR ME!!" card first turn. In other words, it trades early tempo for stability, fewer deckslots, and more resilience.
:: RG LD
Aren't you like, one of the few people using that deck? Just so you know, that thread's unlocked. Has been for a while now.
:: Sensei's Divining Top
I've seen tricks involving stacking the Index, drawing a card, putting the Top on top, and moving it to the bottom of the three cards, but in all honesty, Tel-Jilad Justice would probably be more useful.
:: Chrome Mox
Chrome Mox is the only way for certain aggressive builds to do things on the first turn they shouldn't be able to, though it certainly isn't universal, and definitely does not belong in T&N.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
As for the top argument, I run tops, and twelve urza lands. I als run 1 bosieju maindeck.
No way. That's the best one I've ever seen. You rock Killer!!!