Plow under is very useful for the very reason that MUC will not counter it. If they want to keep up, they will have to waste a TFK to dig past those two lands(in that scenario, you just basically destroyed two of their lands... that's a GOOD thing). The way T&N beats MUC is by continuously playing threats so that the MUC player runs out of counters, and has only condescends and mana leaks for your potent spells - they will most often let you resolve your mana accel, so their leaks and condescends are completely useless in the late-game. This is what makes Rude awakening so potent against MUC.
About the SB: Troll Ascetic is amazing against MUC. If you resolve this on turn 3-4, they will have to tap out soon for a bribery or meloku to keep up with the troll beats; when they do this, you are free to play whatever you want...
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I think I'm with Cyan about the Urzatron. Keeping it at 12 should mean that you have maximized chance of drawing each one. Lowering the count of one will not improve the chances of drawing other ones, it merely reduces your chances of drawing that one in favor of something else. Think about it. Assume for a second that you replaced that piece with a forest and marked it. Every time you drew that forest, you could instead have that piece, and regardless of how you shuffle, this will never improve the chances of drawing another piece of the urzatron, even IF you've searched some out. It only DECREASES the chances of drawing that single piece. It makes no sense to me, unless the logic is simply to vast for my comprehension, which I don't think is the case.
Besides, I haven't had problems with my urzatron ever. I run 24 lands, half urzatron half green sources, so drawing green isn't a problem for me (well, actually 11 green, i run one MD boseiju). I don't think that one extra forest is going to help any.
So, you're saying you run 13 colorless mana sources and 11 green sources? I don't like those odds, especially since you run cards with heavy green requirements like plow under and witness. If you ran solemns etc, I could understand, but it just seems you wouldn't consistently get at least 1 forest. That is one of the major reasons I run the 4th reap and sow and the 3 divining tops thusfar, because I have a greater ability to find that 3rd piece, despite that fact that I only run 11 tron pieces.
Think about it: Your deck plays 3 PP, 4 Mine, and 4 Tower. You have a 73% chance of having a Mine or Tower in your opening hand. Soooo, if you search for the power plant with a tutor of some sort, you still have the same chance of getting a Mine or Tower as if you'd been running 4 power plants. Getting a 2nd power plant is useless either way, so I still don't see your point being valid. The only difference is that you always search for the 3-of piece... and as for that other 27% of the time, you will likely have either 2 pieces of urzatron in your hand, or a way of finding 2 other pieces...
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I think that this deck needs 24 land total , the costs in this deck are atrociously top heavy. Yes, this is alleviated somewhat by the Urzatron..but not entirely. The deck only needs 2 Forests, and it has alot more ways to find them than it does the Urzatron, which it not only needs 3 of, but, 3 of different cards.
Also, like I said already, IMO the best 'other' source for green mana, after Tribe Elder, is Bauble. Bauble is cheap, and no matter how much mana you have(as long as it's at least 2) it will find you a Forest. You don't have to have a Forest already to keep it. Bauble lets you keep double urza-hands that, normally, you shouldn't keep. I think that Bauble is definetely superior to Simulacrum, and also to Rampant Growth. Trellis might be better, since it's a blocker, but playing Bauble means that you don't have to run less than the full set of Urzalands. Honestly, people have been playing T&N in Standard for a full year now. Don't you think that, if running 11 Urza lands was the right decision, it would have come up before? It hasn't, because it should be obvious that 12 is the correct number. I"m not saying that people don't come up with new ideas..obviously they do..but with something like this, it's obviously something that would have come up at SOME point in the past.
11 green, 13 colorless. I also don't necessarily think that every good idea has to come out in a deck immediately. Look how long Goblin Welder, Sundering Titan, and reanimator were in extended before anyone put them all together and ended up with Teen Titans. I've tried running 12 tron, I've tried running 24 lands, and this is the best the deck's ever worked for me.
Oh, and my first tournament's playtest results are in for the Plow Under vs. Top change. The Plow was never really as much of a house as I thought it would be based on my initial playtesting. It worked well in the mirror, but there's not much mirror left around here since the rotation (everyone's off trying new things), and after getting Extracted the second time in game 2 I found myself very much wishing I had the top to dig up some win conditions. In pretty much all the other matchups I found myself wanting top much more than Plow Under. I'm going to stick with it for another week or two then switch back for a few weeks and compare results.
Well, lets see... how many losses did I have out of the 14 games I played last friday? Oh, none? No wonder.... hmmm.... i might actually know what I am doing....
Please do not tell me in future posts to run 12 Urza lands, ok? I will stick with what wins me games, and getting forests is what wins me games, especially since I don't have the inherent horrible luck that everyone else does with getting only 1 urza land in their first 5 turns... :tongue2:
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Heh, nothing like quoting the fact that you can win FNM, of all tournaments, as reference for something...and you managed to win with T&N, the current easiest deck to play and win with. Congratulations to you. That doesn't mean anything. I've won plenty of FNMs, including the last two before I had to come to Indiana on a family emergency. FNM is good for one purpose..getting to know the feel of your deck. Winning FNM doesn't mean anything at all. 12 lands is better. Period. Like I said, if 11 lands was better, then at some point in the last year, one of two things would have happened. A)there would have been an article on SCG.com or BB about it and B)people would be running 11 lands, not 12. I don't know how many ways I have to explain the fact that T&N is a Combo deck. It's not Control, it's not aggro. It's Combo. The ideal turn for T&N to win the game(essentially) is turn 4. Your deck should be devoted to accomplishing this, while having a backup plan in CASE it doesn't accomplish this. You shouldn't be sabotaging your ability to draw the Urza lands. Like I said, if you're that concerned, run Bauble, or 24 lands. It's not like this is a tight decklist.
And anyway..no sorry, getting Forests is NOT what wins games for T&N. If that's the case, why aren't you running a Vernal Bloom version? No need for the Urzatron then. The reason is because it's the Tron that wins you games.
Really, trying to use the fact that you won a random FNM is despicable, and only makes you look like you can't actually back up your arguments with logic. But then, you haven't tried to back them up with logic, nor have you tried to refute any other logical statements that have been made. We shouldn't even be having this conversation.
What this thread SHOULD be talking about is: In a format where everyone is gearing against T&N and blue-based decks at prominent, is a version of T&N that runs Cloudposts along with Forests and Islands better than the traditional version? That's the most relevant question for a T&N player now.
Well, on the note that FNM is apparently the way to get a "feel" for your deck, I guess I am one with T&N. Just because I said I won, doesn't mean that I used the easiest deck to run over a bunch of 8 year-old kids with honden decks. I played very good versions of every single metagame deck that I can think of(except BG). And guess what, I play against good players!! Wow!! I hope you get the chance to do that someday...
Also, if you feel like playing with damned wayfarer's baubles, then go ahead and run the 12-tron version. I don't really care, I am just stating why I build my deck the way I do, and the fact that IT ACTUALLY WORKS! I pulled off turn-4 T&Ns in 6 games, which is 43% of the time. Show me a 12-tron version that does that, and I will give you credit. But, as for now, the 11-tron version is proving to be more consistent for ME, and that's all that matters.
The only reason I used my stats from the FNM is because they are REAL, instead of stupid testing, which is mostly always BS. Seriously, what are you going to believe, an actual tournament, or testing data?? Ok, then...
Also, what the hell does this have to do with Vernal Bloom?? I want to be able to play T&N on the 4th or 5th turn, and not spend 6.5 years looking for Vernal Bloom AND Tooth and Nail. All of this is minimal in comparison to the fact that every other player will be playing green... oh yeah, and lets let our opponent DC for 28 the turn after I play bloom... right...
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Guys, the difference between the 11 and 12 tron decklist deals with what people are more afraid of, drawing no forests or no tron. Its bad news bears if you have seven forests and no tron just as it is full tron no forests. I personally run 12tron, but I'm also running 4 Elders and 4 Trellis. If I get just 1 forest, eight cards say that's fine with them.
Choke and boseiju are currently the best and most effective options against blue. I run 1 boseiju main, 1 board and 3 choke, though in my area BG is the most prevalent and I NEED 4 Spreading Algae or I will be killed. Also, I have found that Shell of the Last Kappa a fine source of Extraction counter. I say this only because there are players, like me, who can't deal with either buying Extractions or supporting a second color. I'm also testing Sideswipe as a quicker alternative, ill post results when I play my next tourney (tommorow).
I wanted to ask 2 questions from all of you...
First, I'm testing in my deck the possibility that the AA team could be replaced by two separate angels. If you draw a platinum, hoorah, you can play it. Draw an anyubas and unless your playing CoB you got a dead draw. I realize AA has a soft lock, but now that artifact hate is down for a bit, why not take out the white?
The next question refers to all the results from the French Regionals: is TaN ready for a second color? I noticed both a GU and a GB version. Maybe yes, maybe no?
Ill post back most definetly after the tourney.
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I'm trying not to insult anyone, but I feel it's silly not to run 12 urzatron. That one forest will probably not make a huge difference, wheras that one piece might. Like others have stated, there are many ways to deal with having one forest in hand... I run 4 Elders and 4 Trellis, which means green is rarely a problem for me and as a result I can AFFORD to run a single MD boseiju. If green was a problem, I'd ditch boseiju for another forest, but in a metagame with a lot of blue, I'd much rather have that tech ready.
Again, this comes down to personal preference, much like the divining top. But would any of you take out an urza's tower instead of a mine or power plant? I don't think so... I know there isn't much point to that question, but just an odd thought.
I'm still not sure (new topic) whether Cloudposts are the way to go yet. So far I haven't experienced the red surge I was expecting in my area, so I'm hopeful that I don't have to worry about that. MD boseiju definitely helps against almost all blue decks, since game one they will be very careful with their counters. I've won many game ones since I had the MD boseiju and they weren't expecting it. This helps immensely in blue matches, as having a game ahead can really dictate your fate if you go overtime.
Besides, playing countermagic vs countermagic in a combo deck has never really worked thus far (to my knowledge), so I don't think it's a good idea to run posts. If blue is a serious problem, run more Boseijus in the board. If you draw into them more often, they'll be in trouble.
It also depends on your meta, after all, in my area red hasn't really shown up (which makes me want to play it ) so I don't have to worry about my tron being compromised too much. But in others, red might be a big force, and thus the deck may be forced to adapt. It's all relative.
Say, guys, if I may, I think I may have stumbled across some secret tech.
Tooth and Nail is having some trouble due to land destruction, right? Normal LD like Stone Rain and Molten Rain can be overcome via Crucible of Worlds, but it is these LD spells plus Sowing Salt that is sealing the deal, correct?
Unless I am mistaken, if you sacrifice a land in response to the Sowing Salt targetting it, the SS is countered upon resolution, and nothing happens, right?
I was looking through my binders, attempting to find a solution to the problem, when I came across the humble little Arcane Spyglass.
Not only do you stop the SS from RFGing all your Urzatron, but you get to draw a card from it. Not exactly the most efficient SB card, but, as far as super secret tech goes, this would dumbfound your opponent quicker than a gray bordered set.
As much as I hate to say this, don't go by his list. Look throughout the thread for more than just one list. You will get an idea as to what people are playing and what you can do to adapt them to your playing style. I'm not bashing the deck, but telling you not to copy just onr deck for it might not ben the best for you.
The problem with Choke against MUC is Spectral Shift. Lots of decks are running them now specifically to deal with things like Boil, Choke, and Genjus. I picked up a couple Chokes and put them in my spare parts box just in case Choke somehow gets good, but right now that's exactly where they're staying: In the spare parts box. My MUC tech at the moment is Boseiju and Troll. I'm probably going to try MDing the Boseiju and upping the Troll count to 4 once I get done testing Plow vs. Top.
I don't know about the effectiveness of Dosan, as I have only played with him once. But, I have played with troll in my SB for quite some time, and he is amazing against MUC. If resolved, he almost always wins you the game. Your opponent will have to tap out for a bribery or a meloku to catch up, which gives you an opportunity to tooth. Dosan seems like he would be more effective than choke right now, but I'm going to stick with the trolls...
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The only thing against either really is the GG in their CC... this isn't hard to get, but it can mess up your urzatron setup... But I suppose if you can get either into play you have gg almost.
Good point about the GG in their casting cost
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Sorry about that... i get a little carried away. Anyway, I have never had problems getting GG on turn 3 for my trolls, mostly because of my 11-post build. I'm not saying it's superior, but try it before you start flaming again...
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I never promoted the GG for the 11 urzatron. My POINT was that it would interfere in the SETUP of the urzatron. If you have to play your spells to focus on getting green, you won't be getting the tron going. By having 11 tron, you're ALWAYS interfering with setting up the tron.
Besides, often this isn't a problem as you can play Sakura or Trellis, but often enough you'll have to skip a turn to play that forest instead of a piece.
I've never had playing turn 3 of either, but lets face it, it slows down your tooth capabilities for the most part.
Tooth capabilities are worth s*** against MUC, by the way. By the time you are able to resolve a T&N, you should have at least twice as much mana available as the MUC player does, so it doesn't matter how you develop the urzatron against them...
The outcome in a T&N vs. MUC game is most often determined by either the tooth player drawing 3 T&Ns(in which the MUC player cannot counter all of them) or the MUC player getting meloku online in a timely manner...
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Actually, the T&N vs. MUC matchup is more like 'did the MUC player cast Adept on turn 3 and start using it on turn 4'. MUC generally steamrolls T&N when this happens, which is why they board in 3 Adepts..it's enormously difficult for T&N to get around adept. Troll helps accomplish this much moreso than Dosan does...granted, they cost the same..but Troll can't be bounced, etc...it just beats on them. Either one will get countered whenever it's possible for them to do so, Troll just does alot more against them.
Granted, that's all game 2. But Game 1 isn't a walk in the park for T&N either..not now that MUC is running so much counter and cards like Bribery MD.
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About the SB: Troll Ascetic is amazing against MUC. If you resolve this on turn 3-4, they will have to tap out soon for a bribery or meloku to keep up with the troll beats; when they do this, you are free to play whatever you want...
Besides, I haven't had problems with my urzatron ever. I run 24 lands, half urzatron half green sources, so drawing green isn't a problem for me (well, actually 11 green, i run one MD boseiju). I don't think that one extra forest is going to help any.
Think about it: Your deck plays 3 PP, 4 Mine, and 4 Tower. You have a 73% chance of having a Mine or Tower in your opening hand. Soooo, if you search for the power plant with a tutor of some sort, you still have the same chance of getting a Mine or Tower as if you'd been running 4 power plants. Getting a 2nd power plant is useless either way, so I still don't see your point being valid. The only difference is that you always search for the 3-of piece... and as for that other 27% of the time, you will likely have either 2 pieces of urzatron in your hand, or a way of finding 2 other pieces...
Also, like I said already, IMO the best 'other' source for green mana, after Tribe Elder, is Bauble. Bauble is cheap, and no matter how much mana you have(as long as it's at least 2) it will find you a Forest. You don't have to have a Forest already to keep it. Bauble lets you keep double urza-hands that, normally, you shouldn't keep. I think that Bauble is definetely superior to Simulacrum, and also to Rampant Growth. Trellis might be better, since it's a blocker, but playing Bauble means that you don't have to run less than the full set of Urzalands. Honestly, people have been playing T&N in Standard for a full year now. Don't you think that, if running 11 Urza lands was the right decision, it would have come up before? It hasn't, because it should be obvious that 12 is the correct number. I"m not saying that people don't come up with new ideas..obviously they do..but with something like this, it's obviously something that would have come up at SOME point in the past.
Oh, and my first tournament's playtest results are in for the Plow Under vs. Top change. The Plow was never really as much of a house as I thought it would be based on my initial playtesting. It worked well in the mirror, but there's not much mirror left around here since the rotation (everyone's off trying new things), and after getting Extracted the second time in game 2 I found myself very much wishing I had the top to dig up some win conditions. In pretty much all the other matchups I found myself wanting top much more than Plow Under. I'm going to stick with it for another week or two then switch back for a few weeks and compare results.
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Please do not tell me in future posts to run 12 Urza lands, ok? I will stick with what wins me games, and getting forests is what wins me games, especially since I don't have the inherent horrible luck that everyone else does with getting only 1 urza land in their first 5 turns... :tongue2:
And anyway..no sorry, getting Forests is NOT what wins games for T&N. If that's the case, why aren't you running a Vernal Bloom version? No need for the Urzatron then. The reason is because it's the Tron that wins you games.
Really, trying to use the fact that you won a random FNM is despicable, and only makes you look like you can't actually back up your arguments with logic. But then, you haven't tried to back them up with logic, nor have you tried to refute any other logical statements that have been made. We shouldn't even be having this conversation.
What this thread SHOULD be talking about is: In a format where everyone is gearing against T&N and blue-based decks at prominent, is a version of T&N that runs Cloudposts along with Forests and Islands better than the traditional version? That's the most relevant question for a T&N player now.
Also, if you feel like playing with damned wayfarer's baubles, then go ahead and run the 12-tron version. I don't really care, I am just stating why I build my deck the way I do, and the fact that IT ACTUALLY WORKS! I pulled off turn-4 T&Ns in 6 games, which is 43% of the time. Show me a 12-tron version that does that, and I will give you credit. But, as for now, the 11-tron version is proving to be more consistent for ME, and that's all that matters.
The only reason I used my stats from the FNM is because they are REAL, instead of stupid testing, which is mostly always BS. Seriously, what are you going to believe, an actual tournament, or testing data?? Ok, then...
Also, what the hell does this have to do with Vernal Bloom?? I want to be able to play T&N on the 4th or 5th turn, and not spend 6.5 years looking for Vernal Bloom AND Tooth and Nail. All of this is minimal in comparison to the fact that every other player will be playing green... oh yeah, and lets let our opponent DC for 28 the turn after I play bloom... right...
Guys, the difference between the 11 and 12 tron decklist deals with what people are more afraid of, drawing no forests or no tron. Its bad news bears if you have seven forests and no tron just as it is full tron no forests. I personally run 12tron, but I'm also running 4 Elders and 4 Trellis. If I get just 1 forest, eight cards say that's fine with them.
Choke and boseiju are currently the best and most effective options against blue. I run 1 boseiju main, 1 board and 3 choke, though in my area BG is the most prevalent and I NEED 4 Spreading Algae or I will be killed. Also, I have found that Shell of the Last Kappa a fine source of Extraction counter. I say this only because there are players, like me, who can't deal with either buying Extractions or supporting a second color. I'm also testing Sideswipe as a quicker alternative, ill post results when I play my next tourney (tommorow).
I wanted to ask 2 questions from all of you...
First, I'm testing in my deck the possibility that the AA team could be replaced by two separate angels. If you draw a platinum, hoorah, you can play it. Draw an anyubas and unless your playing CoB you got a dead draw. I realize AA has a soft lock, but now that artifact hate is down for a bit, why not take out the white?
The next question refers to all the results from the French Regionals: is TaN ready for a second color? I noticed both a GU and a GB version. Maybe yes, maybe no?
Ill post back most definetly after the tourney.
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In some areas, FNM isn't the most competitive place, but in others it might be.
Really, just because you disagree with one person's opinions is certainly no reason to start trashing their play skill/opponents.
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Again, this comes down to personal preference, much like the divining top. But would any of you take out an urza's tower instead of a mine or power plant? I don't think so... I know there isn't much point to that question, but just an odd thought.
I'm still not sure (new topic) whether Cloudposts are the way to go yet. So far I haven't experienced the red surge I was expecting in my area, so I'm hopeful that I don't have to worry about that. MD boseiju definitely helps against almost all blue decks, since game one they will be very careful with their counters. I've won many game ones since I had the MD boseiju and they weren't expecting it. This helps immensely in blue matches, as having a game ahead can really dictate your fate if you go overtime.
Besides, playing countermagic vs countermagic in a combo deck has never really worked thus far (to my knowledge), so I don't think it's a good idea to run posts. If blue is a serious problem, run more Boseijus in the board. If you draw into them more often, they'll be in trouble.
It also depends on your meta, after all, in my area red hasn't really shown up (which makes me want to play it ) so I don't have to worry about my tron being compromised too much. But in others, red might be a big force, and thus the deck may be forced to adapt. It's all relative.
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Tooth and Nail is having some trouble due to land destruction, right? Normal LD like Stone Rain and Molten Rain can be overcome via Crucible of Worlds, but it is these LD spells plus Sowing Salt that is sealing the deal, correct?
Unless I am mistaken, if you sacrifice a land in response to the Sowing Salt targetting it, the SS is countered upon resolution, and nothing happens, right?
I was looking through my binders, attempting to find a solution to the problem, when I came across the humble little Arcane Spyglass.
Not only do you stop the SS from RFGing all your Urzatron, but you get to draw a card from it. Not exactly the most efficient SB card, but, as far as super secret tech goes, this would dumbfound your opponent quicker than a gray bordered set.
I need some help can one of you post a decklist for T&N my friend neji needs a deck for regonals. any help would be greatly appriciated.
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Sorry about that... i get a little carried away. Anyway, I have never had problems getting GG on turn 3 for my trolls, mostly because of my 11-post build. I'm not saying it's superior, but try it before you start flaming again...
Besides, often this isn't a problem as you can play Sakura or Trellis, but often enough you'll have to skip a turn to play that forest instead of a piece.
I've never had playing turn 3 of either, but lets face it, it slows down your tooth capabilities for the most part.
The outcome in a T&N vs. MUC game is most often determined by either the tooth player drawing 3 T&Ns(in which the MUC player cannot counter all of them) or the MUC player getting meloku online in a timely manner...
Granted, that's all game 2. But Game 1 isn't a walk in the park for T&N either..not now that MUC is running so much counter and cards like Bribery MD.