I can't see using them right now, they are very slow, and with all the artifact hate running around you can't just play 1 then next turn pop it off. You need 8 mana to pop it of in 1 turn, to slow for me. Also MBC runs a good amount of artifacts itself, in Chrome Mox and Guardian Idol , so having O-Stones would hurt MBC just as much as other decks.
That being said I could only see Oblivion Stone being used if MBC need a way to get rid of enchantments, like Honden's and Genju, and possible. If for some reason either became really big and a problem I could see O-Stone popping up in some SB's
I think theyd help vs. vedalken shackels but im happy now... I can beat U/G after SBing as NoSB kicks its ass HARD
Meloku= worthless
Witness dies
RA= Half as dangerous
If you extract they will counter...if you persecute they will counter...then NoSB and continue to a win
Creatures:
3 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
2 Kokusho
1 Nightmare (Replaced with Kokusho when I can barrow one)
2 Emissary of Dispair
16 total
Spells:
4 Distress
3 Mind Rot
4 Rend Flesh
4 Nights Whisper
4 Consume Spirit
2 Echoing Decay
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Extraplanar Lens
23 total
Land:
21 Swanp
Side Board:
3 Horobi, Death’s Wail
2 Emisary of Dispair
3 Relic Barrier
3 Barter in Blood
3 Hideous Laughter
1 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
15 Total
These are the cards I currently own. I could possibly barrow 2 Kokusho and 3 Cranials. With this build some of my best games have been against Affinity. Right now, I'm about 40% game one vs. Affinity, but that jumps to about 60-65% post board.
Against most of the field I like to get an early Shortfang filp, then close with a Consume or Kokusho. Against Affinity I'll side out the discard spells and bring in Horobi and the barriers along with Laughter and NoSB.
I am really thinking about the inclusion of maybe two to three Diabolic Tutor .
With those ran, you cut down on SB space by quite a bit, seeing as you do not have to run more than 1 NoSB. I just do not know if we would be able to get off the one Extraction in the board fast enough vs. Tooth to be a hinderance to it. Still, running those means that we can seriously free up some space from both the Main and the Side. LMK what you guys think.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Are you thinking of running them over Phyrexian Arena ? In this enviroment I would rather have multiple copies of Cranial Extraction , and Night of Soul's Betrayal. T2 right know is so fast even decks like T&N and KCI go off by turn 5 at the latest, how would Diabolic Tutor be able to get you the card that you need and still be able to play it so quickly, even with the acceleration MBC runs. Wouldn't you rather have a NoSB in your opening hand against Affinity, instead of a card that lets you go get the NoSB and costs the same as NoSB?
It can get anything that you would need for the following turn, but back when it was played in MBC during Torment the enviroment was a bit slower and you had Mutilate , Mind Sludge and Haunting Echoes to go fetch and clear the board or wreak there whole deck. I don't see any spell like that in MBC now that can turn the tables quickly, not even Death Cloud . The Tutor was run because those spells were so strong and didn't effect you 1 bit. MBC doesn't have any of those spells that when played say GG, so using the Tutor to get 1 copy of a card that isn't going to win the game doesn't seem very effective.
If T2 was slower and MBC had better powercards I would definitely run the Tutor, but the way that T2 is right now I think it is just a little bit to slow.
Like I said, I was afraid of it being too slow. The only reason it attracted me because it would free up a lot of space, and it would enable you to run more threats. I thing I should try running 2, just because I think it could help in fetching that game ending Consume Spirit. I never said it would ever take the place of Arena, because it would not. It is worth trying, however.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Yah, it can't hurt to try it and see how it does. I wasn't infering that you were playing them over the Arena's I was only asking if you were thinking of running them over the Arena's. What would you take out to put the Tutors in?
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Mr Blonde:symb: Resident SwampMage:symb:
"Are you going to bark all day little doggie, or are you going to bite?"
Oh, I would prolly run one less DC, and one less Echoing Decay, bringing the spot removal to:
3x Rend Flesh
3x Echoing Decay
4x Barter in Blood
Either take out the cloudor one consume spirit. I think taking out a Cloud would be wiser, because Consume spirit has gotten me out of pretty nasty situations.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
That seems pretty good. I am not that big of a fan of DC lately. I was accually thinking of taking them out for NoSB and adding the DC to the SB. Then I was thinking of taking the Nexus out of the deck and adding Stalking Stones in its place. I have found that the NoSB is a better choose in my area, and that the DC while being a very strong spell doesn't hurt as many decks as I was hoping. Meluko the Clouded Mirror is rather big around here at the moment and stopping them from making tokens is key. DC doesn't do that and NoSB does. Affinity hates to see NoSB hit the board where as I sideout the DC against Affinity. I don't know if it is a smart idea or not. What do you think?
Honestly, I think you should keep the DC's in. Even if they seem to be bad, they can always be used as counter bait, or you can use them to keep you opponent under a certain mana range, or you can use them as Mox food. Seriously, I cannot imagine taking them out all together. Black just needs a "Whoa, lets slow this down here," card, and DC is it.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I really think that running the Lens is not the smartest. With all the hate, it is a must blow up, because they will know the Consume Spirit is coming next. That just wasted a card. Unless you ramp up enough mana to use it the same turn, it will hurt you bad when they blow it up.
I also think that running both Promise of Power and Arena is counter-productive. Honestly, you have enough draw and enough win to merit the loss of life. 90 percent of the time you will be using the PoP for the 5, and losing 5 cards, especially in this fast-paced meta-game, is usually suicide.
However, I like the plunge, even though you will not usually use th egain life part. It *may* be a possibility, but it just seems to steep to grab one card.
Finally, I think the lash is kind of a win-more card. You should do just fine with bashing them with Kokusho, and lash just seems to be overkill, and the only time it is helpful is late-game, where you are ~Sometimes~ hurting for life, so equipping it would be bad. I like the fact that it can enable you to win in one turn, but more often than not they will set up around it once they see it, unless you want to play the kill 1st, and it usually gets blown up, after you pay the 3.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Honestly, I think you should keep the DC's in. Even if they seem to be bad, they can always be used as counter bait, or you can use them to keep you opponent under a certain mana range, or you can use them as Mox food. Seriously, I cannot imagine taking them out all together. Black just needs a "Whoa, lets slow this down here," card, and DC is it.
You know it was just a thought. I just don't use the DC as much as I used to. I try and get Kokusho out 1st and beat down with that. Also around here NoSB MD would do more harm then DC would. I see alot of Sakura Tribe Elder , Eternal Witness, Meluko the Clouded Mirror, and Beacon of Creation. I probably will not do the switch anytime soon, but it is something that I'm truly thinking of doing if I keep facing all of the above creatures/ cards.
@MikeIs1337357 thanks for the deck list. I would have to agree about the Extraplanar Lens, you only run about 4 artifacts so the Lens would probably get killed the minute it hits the board.
Reiver Demon seems a little strange, and with only 21 lands getting some of your high casting cost spells might be tough to cast.
Originally Posted by mr blonde
That seems pretty good. I am not that big of a fan of DC lately. I was accually thinking of taking them out for NoSB and adding the DC to the SB. Then I was thinking of taking the Nexus out of the deck and adding Stalking Stones in its place. I have found that the NoSB is a better choose in my area, and that the DC while being a very strong spell doesn't hurt as many decks as I was hoping
i also am trying a build without DC as it just wasn't effecting other decks enough. here's what im hoping to try out at FNM tomorrow:
3- chrome mox
3- Talisman of Indulgence
4- distress
2- persecute
2- cranial extraction/eradicate
4- echoing decay
4- rend flesh
4- Sickening Shoal
4- Night of Soul's Betrayal
Interesting to say the least. You know that you can't play with betrayers tomorrow night. Betrayers will not be legal till the end of the month.
I would think about adding Kokusho into the deck, if you have them. Running 4 Shoals and 3 Moxes without any card draw may be a problem. If you could add a few Phyrexian Arena's it might help with the loss of cards from both the Shoal and Mox. Why no Consume Spirits or Barter in Bloods?
The red in the SB is a neat idea if your facing alot of white and blue.
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Mr Blonde:symb: Resident SwampMage:symb:
"Are you going to bark all day little doggie, or are you going to bite?"
Kokusho is nice, but in this deck, i really don't want to pay 6 mana for a 5/5 or 4/4 flier with an ability that isn't that useful to me. besides, with 4 NoSB the harvester hits end games alot faster than Kokusho. the arena would be nice but id rather draw another threat and the life lose is a bit much in this deck. the shoal is in the deck becase i always have extra NoSB's or fharvester in my hand, or i pay x at instant speed. consume spirit is to mana intensive and i don't wan't my own guys dying to barter in blood. i face more G/x decks than anything with a bit of affinity and WW. no one plays TnN here anymore because i usually play ponza and they might as well be a by to me. the red really helps the G/U and G/W, and MUC matchup.
Ponza is not a bye really, most Mono-Color anything decks have trouble with ponza. Anyway, I really do not see why you are not using Kokusho. Notice you can suck them (heehee) for ten in one turn. That is usually deadly, and always an awesome stall. Seriously, Kokusho is ~the~ best black creature that black has at the moment, and running him is just errr, well, foolish. I think Harvester is O.K for the soft lock, and to get it early enough usually spells death, but still, for overral power and game-turning ability, it goes to Kokusho.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Kokusho is nice, but in this deck, i really don't want to pay 6 mana for a 5/5 or 4/4 flier with an ability that isn't that useful to me. besides, with 4 NoSB the harvester hits end games alot faster than Kokusho
I'm not trying to say your wrong or anything but, how is Kokusho's ability not usefull to you? Kokusho's ability is the best ability of all the dragons in CoK. You obviously could get him out early with the acceleration that you run so its 6cc can't be to steap. Also his ability puts a scare in must opponents, because if they get rid of him before he attacks they loss 5 life and there still at 15 life, not to bad. If they can't get rid of him and he only attacks once then you play another your opponent is at 5 life. That is a massive swing in life totals that can't be overlooked. If your lucky to attack twice with him its GG if you play another, nuff said.
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the arena would be nice but id rather draw another threat and the life lose is a bit much in this deck. the shoal is in the deck becase i always have extra NoSB's or fharvester in my hand, or i pay x at instant speed. consume spirit is to mana intensive and i don't wan't my own guys dying to barter in blood..
If you have a Arena in play, you will be drawing those threats you are talking about more often. You could drop a Arena turn 2 with the help of a Mox and I don't think that your deck would miss a beat. Drawing cards equals card advantage which wins games.
I like the Shoal more and more, but I just think that you are lossing card advantage with both the Mox and Shoal that can't be overlooked, without card draw having those 2 cards in your deck is going to hurt you. I realize that you can hardcast the Shoal, but its power lies in its alterninte casting cost, but if you have pitched some cards to your Mox, and you have no way of drawing cards then you won't have the card to pitch to the Shoal.
I myself will play the Consume for what ever I can get out of it at times. I don't think that I have to Consume my opponent for 15 or something like that, but I also play with Kokusho so my Consumes don't have to be very big to kill my opponent.
Barter would be bad for your Stalking Stones if they were activated. If you had a Harvester out and you needed to get rid of your opponents creatures, I agree that Barter would defintely be a bad thing.
ok, your making me rethink the arena. I had it in the deck to begin withbut took it out for different stuff. looking at the list what would you remove for them? As far as Kokusho goes the harvester is a bigger threat. since i don't play with DC i need a way to gain long term control of the game, a hit by the harvester does that. And with a NoSB out and some removal you'd be suprised how easy it is to get him through. the red is more for a suprise factor, no one expects LD from a MBC deck, gives me another way to gain control in otherwise hard matchups.
I think the Greater Harvester is a great creature, but if you run both Yukora the Prisoner and the Harvester and someone is able to hit you Yukora you will lose the Harvester. What do you think about playing both the Harvester and Kokusho? You have plenty of acceleration so you should be able to support both of there casting costs.
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Mr Blonde:symb: Resident SwampMage:symb:
"Are you going to bark all day little doggie, or are you going to bite?"
Harvester can be a great finisher too if you have Kokusho out and your opponent is within reach. Sac Kokusho to harvester at upkeep, and waste away their remaining life points. and yes, Arena is one of the best card draw engines availiable to black.
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Find me on MTGO: mushup0rk
Quote from Someone on Volcanic Hammer »
3 damage for 2 mana; it’s like playing 8 Lightning Helixes, except 4 of them have AIDS.
Dude, your deck is gass. Why run talismans in a mono colored deck? Its as if you assembed your deck form a stack of discarded draft decks or something. Distress? Night of Soul's betrayal? Try to post a good decklist next time.
Dude, your deck is gass. Why run talismans in a mono colored deck? Its as if you assembed your deck form a stack of discarded draft decks or something. Distress? Night of Soul's betrayal? Try to post a good decklist next time.
Where's your deck list? If your going to be critical and say someones deck is "gass" maybe you should back up you thoughts with some facts. Just saying card names with ? after doesn't add anything relivant to the disscusion. Next time don't post if your going to be a "gass".
The Night of Souls' Betrayal is a great card, able to stop about 75% of the creatures played of the board. It will stop Meloku the Clouded Mirror from making any tokens, and the Sakura Triba Elder will die the minute it comes into play, and your opponetn won't be able to sac it to get a land. It is also really good against Affinity if you can get it out by 3rd turn.
The only card I don't see being good is the Talisman of Dominance . You don't splash so why play it. You could run Guardian Idol instead and it would still give you mana. You could get the Idol out turn 1 if you have a Chrome Mox also.
Aether Sigs
That being said I could only see Oblivion Stone being used if MBC need a way to get rid of enchantments, like Honden's and Genju, and possible. If for some reason either became really big and a problem I could see O-Stone popping up in some SB's
Meloku= worthless
Witness dies
RA= Half as dangerous
If you extract they will counter...if you persecute they will counter...then NoSB and continue to a win
This makes me want to laugh, cry, and crawl under my bed and never come out again... Actually it REALLY makes me want to sing along!
'Cause I'd rather stay here
For I'm quite content their all as sane as me
Main Deck
Creatures:
3 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
2 Kokusho
1 Nightmare (Replaced with Kokusho when I can barrow one)
2 Emissary of Dispair
16 total
Spells:
4 Distress
3 Mind Rot
4 Rend Flesh
4 Nights Whisper
4 Consume Spirit
2 Echoing Decay
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Extraplanar Lens
23 total
Land:
21 Swanp
Side Board:
3 Horobi, Death’s Wail
2 Emisary of Dispair
3 Relic Barrier
3 Barter in Blood
3 Hideous Laughter
1 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
15 Total
These are the cards I currently own. I could possibly barrow 2 Kokusho and 3 Cranials. With this build some of my best games have been against Affinity. Right now, I'm about 40% game one vs. Affinity, but that jumps to about 60-65% post board.
Against most of the field I like to get an early Shortfang filp, then close with a Consume or Kokusho. Against Affinity I'll side out the discard spells and bring in Horobi and the barriers along with Laughter and NoSB.
Any thoughts would be helpful.
With those ran, you cut down on SB space by quite a bit, seeing as you do not have to run more than 1 NoSB. I just do not know if we would be able to get off the one Extraction in the board fast enough vs. Tooth to be a hinderance to it. Still, running those means that we can seriously free up some space from both the Main and the Side. LMK what you guys think.
It can get anything that you would need for the following turn, but back when it was played in MBC during Torment the enviroment was a bit slower and you had Mutilate , Mind Sludge and Haunting Echoes to go fetch and clear the board or wreak there whole deck. I don't see any spell like that in MBC now that can turn the tables quickly, not even Death Cloud . The Tutor was run because those spells were so strong and didn't effect you 1 bit. MBC doesn't have any of those spells that when played say GG, so using the Tutor to get 1 copy of a card that isn't going to win the game doesn't seem very effective.
If T2 was slower and MBC had better powercards I would definitely run the Tutor, but the way that T2 is right now I think it is just a little bit to slow.
3x Rend Flesh
3x Echoing Decay
4x Barter in Blood
Either take out the cloudor one consume spirit. I think taking out a Cloud would be wiser, because Consume spirit has gotten me out of pretty nasty situations.
// Creatures (8) //
3 Nezumi Graverobber
2 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Silent Arbiter
1 Reiver Demon
// Spells (32) //
4 Consume Spirit
4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Befoul
3 Rend Flesh
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Distress
3 Promise of Power
2 Echoing Decay
2 Barter in Blood
2 Plunge into Darkness
2 Extraplanar Lens
1 Nightmare Lash
// Mana Base (21) //
20 Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Eradicate
SB: 3 Oblivion Stone
SB: 3 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 2 Yukora, the Prisoner
SB: 2 Plague Wind
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
I know this has 61 cards, but the Lash works wonders with Kokusho and Shizo. ^.^
I also think that running both Promise of Power and Arena is counter-productive. Honestly, you have enough draw and enough win to merit the loss of life. 90 percent of the time you will be using the PoP for the 5, and losing 5 cards, especially in this fast-paced meta-game, is usually suicide.
However, I like the plunge, even though you will not usually use th egain life part. It *may* be a possibility, but it just seems to steep to grab one card.
Finally, I think the lash is kind of a win-more card. You should do just fine with bashing them with Kokusho, and lash just seems to be overkill, and the only time it is helpful is late-game, where you are ~Sometimes~ hurting for life, so equipping it would be bad. I like the fact that it can enable you to win in one turn, but more often than not they will set up around it once they see it, unless you want to play the kill 1st, and it usually gets blown up, after you pay the 3.
You know it was just a thought. I just don't use the DC as much as I used to. I try and get Kokusho out 1st and beat down with that. Also around here NoSB MD would do more harm then DC would. I see alot of Sakura Tribe Elder , Eternal Witness, Meluko the Clouded Mirror, and Beacon of Creation. I probably will not do the switch anytime soon, but it is something that I'm truly thinking of doing if I keep facing all of the above creatures/ cards.
@MikeIs1337357 thanks for the deck list. I would have to agree about the Extraplanar Lens, you only run about 4 artifacts so the Lens would probably get killed the minute it hits the board.
Reiver Demon seems a little strange, and with only 21 lands getting some of your high casting cost spells might be tough to cast.
vbmenu_register("postmenu_85268", true);
i also am trying a build without DC as it just wasn't effecting other decks enough. here's what im hoping to try out at FNM tomorrow:
3- chrome mox
3- Talisman of Indulgence
4- distress
2- persecute
2- cranial extraction/eradicate
4- echoing decay
4- rend flesh
4- Sickening Shoal
4- Night of Soul's Betrayal
3- Yukora, the Prisoner
4- greater harvester
16 swamps
2 stalking stones
2 city of brass
2 urborg volcano
1 shizo
sideboard
_________________
3- boil (U/G, MUC)
3- flashfires (W/G, WW)
4- relic barrier (Affin)
1- persecute (control)
3- pyroclasm (WW, Affin)
i kind of went of in another direction from most of the other decks here, let me know what you think.
I would think about adding Kokusho into the deck, if you have them. Running 4 Shoals and 3 Moxes without any card draw may be a problem. If you could add a few Phyrexian Arena's it might help with the loss of cards from both the Shoal and Mox. Why no Consume Spirits or Barter in Bloods?
The red in the SB is a neat idea if your facing alot of white and blue.
I'm not trying to say your wrong or anything but, how is Kokusho's ability not usefull to you? Kokusho's ability is the best ability of all the dragons in CoK. You obviously could get him out early with the acceleration that you run so its 6cc can't be to steap. Also his ability puts a scare in must opponents, because if they get rid of him before he attacks they loss 5 life and there still at 15 life, not to bad. If they can't get rid of him and he only attacks once then you play another your opponent is at 5 life. That is a massive swing in life totals that can't be overlooked. If your lucky to attack twice with him its GG if you play another, nuff said.
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If you have a Arena in play, you will be drawing those threats you are talking about more often. You could drop a Arena turn 2 with the help of a Mox and I don't think that your deck would miss a beat. Drawing cards equals card advantage which wins games.
I like the Shoal more and more, but I just think that you are lossing card advantage with both the Mox and Shoal that can't be overlooked, without card draw having those 2 cards in your deck is going to hurt you. I realize that you can hardcast the Shoal, but its power lies in its alterninte casting cost, but if you have pitched some cards to your Mox, and you have no way of drawing cards then you won't have the card to pitch to the Shoal.
I myself will play the Consume for what ever I can get out of it at times. I don't think that I have to Consume my opponent for 15 or something like that, but I also play with Kokusho so my Consumes don't have to be very big to kill my opponent.
Barter would be bad for your Stalking Stones if they were activated. If you had a Harvester out and you needed to get rid of your opponents creatures, I agree that Barter would defintely be a bad thing.
I think the Greater Harvester is a great creature, but if you run both Yukora the Prisoner and the Harvester and someone is able to hit you Yukora you will lose the Harvester. What do you think about playing both the Harvester and Kokusho? You have plenty of acceleration so you should be able to support both of there casting costs.
3 Yukora, the Prisoner
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Grater Harvester
4 Hideous Laughter
4 Echoing Decay
3 Rend Flesh
3 Sickening Shoal
3 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Persecute
3 Distress
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Chrome Mox
18 Swamp
1 Shizo's Death Storehouse
2 Stalking Stones
SB:
4 Relic Barrier
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Barter in Blood
Dude, your post is like all flamey and trolly...
And this is a warning.
-ButteBlues18
Where's your deck list? If your going to be critical and say someones deck is "gass" maybe you should back up you thoughts with some facts. Just saying card names with ? after doesn't add anything relivant to the disscusion. Next time don't post if your going to be a "gass".
@pirulin I don't think that I would run Yukora, the Prisoner, Kokusho, the Evening Star , and Greater Harvester . I would pick 2 out of the 3, probably Kokusho and Yukora.
The Night of Souls' Betrayal is a great card, able to stop about 75% of the creatures played of the board. It will stop Meloku the Clouded Mirror from making any tokens, and the Sakura Triba Elder will die the minute it comes into play, and your opponetn won't be able to sac it to get a land. It is also really good against Affinity if you can get it out by 3rd turn.
The only card I don't see being good is the Talisman of Dominance . You don't splash so why play it. You could run Guardian Idol instead and it would still give you mana. You could get the Idol out turn 1 if you have a Chrome Mox also.