SDT aint good. It aint good in all decks, even though everyone tries to put them in. They just take up space, your taking up cards that are better than them. Ponza has a lot of cards that need to be put in.
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I just said it sucks it just about every deck it is tried in. Please read why I explained it was best utilized in this one. And no, Ponza is not really cramped for space. The basic Skeleton involves maybe 12-16 LD, 4x Arc-Slogger, 4x Sliths and 4x Moxen, along with stuff like Jet. The SDT fetches what wins for this deck" the 3rd and most of the time 4th LD to pretty much seal up the game. And yes, it does get in the way of dropping Slith or Jet, but it is used when you have to get that last LD.
Seriously, I have tried it fairly intensively, and the SDT enables you to seal off games you would have otherwise lost. (Usually by hitting them down out of Solemn Simulacrum/Reap and Sow range.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Ermmm...I think you are missing the point here. The deck is supposed to put them in a mana-light bind, then bash face with a beatie after maybe 6-7 turns, whereas they cannot really handle it all that well. That is why Black does so good- It does not need loads of mana to counter or whatnot, it just pays 3 and Rend Flesh's it.
I really think 3x Sowing Salts is a must have in the sideboard. It is another tool vs tooth that we can use to hose them. My freind run's 2 MB, just so he can kill Blinkmoth Nexi, which 90 percent of the time he does.
I know I may be bringing up a sore subject here, but, seriously, SDT is possibly the best abused in this deck. This deck wins by grabbing the 3rd and 4th ld, which Top can easily do. I agree- It sucks in about every other deck, but ponza needs the early LD to keep them bogged down, before the Solemns and other excel can hit. Suffice to say it usually does not stop Sakura, but 1st turn top 2nd turn ld 3rd turn ld and 4th turn dig for an LD is game.
I dont think ponza will work in the current metagame. Too slow against affinity, and scoops to everything else. Sorry, but the results according to ZVI and kibler show this.
LoL. Listening to people like that are a true way to show your gullability and narrow-mindedness. Seriously, aren't those one fo the guys that claimed "counter spells were bad,"
I think Ponza has a good matchup vs just about everything. I agree, it is not the best, or even 2nd best, but, it does have the tools to win.
I used to always kind of think down upon Ponza, until my freind Jim started to play it. Seriously, now i get anxious every time I play it. It does not have bad matchups vs everything, in fact, it has fairly decent matchups all around.
I will try to get Jim's list this Friday/Saturday, or at least asap.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I still find Ponza to be pretty solid in my metagame. Sure, it has its weak matchups, and if you can't draw that stream of ~4 LD spells in the first 6 turns, you have a lot of work ahead of you. However, I think the strength of Ponza mid/late game is underrated. It just takes a skilled player and a little luck to keep you alive until the Slogger can come over and say hi.
I also think we got a HUGE boost with the Genju of the Spires. I'm thinking of running 3, and also trying to squeeze in Crack the Earth. I run 12 LD as it is, so 16 may be a bit of an overload, but on the other side of the coin running 3x Chrome Mox and 4x Desperate Ritual MD means that you've got a hell of a good chance to hit that turn 2 LD, and a small possibility of hitting a turn 1 second play LD as well.
IMO in almost all decks running the Divining Top is a waste of space. I've seen it used in some decks (I run 2x in Death Cloud for the sole reason that the accel in the deck lets me shuffle so much) to absolutely amazing results, but more often than not it sucks. Ponza doesn't have much space left over if you're looking to play it to its best (maximun LD and removal, no Zo-Zus). If you were really dead set on using the top I think it would behoove you to put in artifact land and run Shrapnel Blast as well. If you're gonna play a sub-par card you might as well get the best bang for your buck.
Um...ponza never won any events and rarely top 8's at anything. The results speak for themselves, piledriver.
Errr....Like I just said, I never thought it was the best or anything, I just think that people underestimate the deck.
All I have to say about the SDT. Just try it. You will find out that it is best abused in this deck than no other. I was one fo the 1st people around to say the card sucked when it came out, and I still stick by that. Everyone else pretty much flamed me, but I still stick by it. The thing is, as I said over and over again, it enables you to easily fetch the 4th LD to seal up a game, w/out having to resort to magma jet to do that. I would run 2, just because getting multiples sucks really bad.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I think ponza is a good deck and doesnt really have that many bad matchups... good all around as somebody said in earlier threads. Also I took mine apart because i know its good all around but just didnt win for me. Also kind of boring to play w/ after numerous times.
@icic3: I do understand that. Its always the same game, ld, slith, song, slogger, die die die. Either that or you fall flat on your face.
@ piledriver: er, woops, I didn't mean that ponza was tight. I was thinking of raffinity... I'm gonna chalk it up to the booze, but stupidity most likely played a big role. Lets givem both a great hand!
@Theultimateninja: Genju would be a good card if it weren't for the large amounts of 1/1 creatures in the environment. Its just chump blocked most of the time, even with the burn in this deck.
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I think ponza is a good deck and doesnt really have that many bad matchups... good all around as somebody said in earlier threads. Also I took mine apart because i know its good all around but just didnt win for me. Also kind of boring to play w/ after numerous times.
Um...noob ponza isnt a good deck. All the playtest results point to that.
Um...noob ponza isnt a good deck. All the playtest results point to that.
i'm not a noob and yes it is a decent deck... just boring.
EDIT: and earl pants is probably a noob becuase he probably doesnt konw how to play with the deck at all and just feels better when he calls other ppl noobs
now the key to winning is the way you side board
against affinity you take out the stone rain and demolish and in goes the hearth kami, shatter, and piro.
any control Decks get the shunt
TnN gets the rains
mirror gets the rains and shunts
it works out prity well for me
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Stormy: How big are those Squirrels
me: 9378498/9378498
Stormy: Im never playing against you again.
me: and this was done with out an earthcraft
First Match against some Green/Black thing.
Both games go simular to this.
I blow up 5 lands and my opponent makes his 6th land drop ~turn 12.
Out come the Black Legendary dragons. Game.
Record 0-2
Vs Viral Affinity.
Game 1:
I keep him down and ~turn 4 he gets a raveger out.
Played Grab the Reigns vs against Raveger. (fun for me)
We trade a bit. I get board controll with a Slogger. He shrapnel blasts the slogger @ 6 life.
He top decks some beater, I die.
Game 2:
I have Kumano out, 4 mountains and a stalking stone. Life Me @ 2, Him ~13.
He top decks a 2nd Blinkmoth nexus
I play a Echoing Ruin (vs a Cranal Plating or something)
He flies over for 2... MIS-Play
Match 3 vs KCI:
Game 1:
He keeps a 0 land hand and plays a mox. I hearth kami the mox and he scoops.
Game 2:
Silith comes out turn 1.
I start beating on land, he makes land drops but can't get the combo together.
Dies to silith
Match 4: vs a R/B/U Sceptre//Horobi//Endless Whispers
Game 1:
I kill the Sceptre, he gets Horibi and Whispers out.
Slith beats him while I keep targeting and taking Horobi.
@ 3 life he topdecks another Horobi and makes it a draw.
Game 2 and 3:
New strategy Kill the black instead of Red/Blue.
He dies with nothing going on.
50/50
Also played some side games vs T&N and Affinity.
Went ~50% vs T&N, never got it going against affinity.
Lessons of the day just play shatter, and the deck is a little slow.
Hacked my deck. New Version.
4 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Shock
2 Fireball
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Stone Rain
4 Molten Rain
2 Demolish
1 Guardian Idol (mox Place Holder #1)
1 Chrome Mox
4 Slith
4 Hearth Kami
2 Shivan
1 Kumano
1 Arc Slogger
Land
1 Blinkmoth Nexus (mox Place Holder #2)
21 Mountains (1 is mox Place Holder #3)
Board
2x Grab the Reigns
2x Pulse of the Forge
2x Zo-Zu
2x Boil
1x Hammer of Bogarden
2x Detonate
4x Shatter
I was looking through the states decklists, for an artifact based Big Red deck that i liked the look of, and i found this, it looks really solid, and it must be at least reasonable if it can beat the other decks that made top 8 (Affinity, Affinity, U/R Obliterate, R/G Beats, Affinity, KCI, Tooth and Nail) check it out:
@Squirrel: Why the one-offs of Beacon of Destruction and Fireball? It seems like you'd be better off choosing one and sticking to it.
I seam to draw the one i need when i need it so it realy doesn't affect me that much. Having the one beacon in there saves me sometimes agains white and its damn enchantments when i cant kill them outright i have to resort to decking them out.
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Stormy: How big are those Squirrels
me: 9378498/9378498
Stormy: Im never playing against you again.
me: and this was done with out an earthcraft
Why only the 1 Mox? I personally would run Red, but I don't have 3-4 Mox (or 1 for that matter) so I'm not going to, since without Mox its WAY too slow. I might try Desperate Ritual so I can get a 1st/2nd turn LD card off... right now I don't have a definate build to post, might edit with one later.
This is the version i've been playing lately. I havent tested much against affinity but so far it has done well against it thus far. Everything else (i.e MUC, Tooth, UG, RG, GW.) I tested against more extensively and won at least 50% of the matches.
Creatures
I found Hammers to work better than pulses as my life is usually above theirs, and it has the ability to remove creatures. The flamebreaks will probably be moved to the side for Genjus when BOK becomes legal.
Big Red has recently become one of my favorite decks, and, since the return of Sowing Salt, now has the power to beat both Affinity and Tooth and Nail consistently, making it a deck to be feared. Here is the version I run:
23 Mountain
4 Hearth Kami
4 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Arc Slogger
4 Vulshok Sorceror
4 Seething Song
4 Hammer of Bogardan
4 Pulse of the Forge
3 Furnace Whelp
2 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
I've yet to fine tweak the deck, but, here are a few notes:
Furnace Whelp is underrated. If you can disrupt Tooth and Nail on turn 4 using Sowing Salt, Furnace Whelp finishes them off in a few swings.
Slith Firewalker....is only good when played turn 1. This requires you to play Chrome Mox. Playing Chrome Mox puts you at a disadvantage against any green based deck, so that isn't the wisest thing to do, especially since green based decks all run 4 Sakura Tribe Elders. After a turn or two of chump blocking, your Slith is a measley 2/2 or 3/3 at best. Slith belongs more in Ponza, or at a stretch RDW. But not Big Red.
Vulshok Sorceror is really good. It becomes sick if you manage to get 2 in play.
I still use Shrapnel Blast mainly as a cheap way of getting 5-10 points in late game. I run 3 MD, sometimes I'll run 4 if everyones running Control that week. Also, Wayfayer's Bauble is awesome, though Chrome Mox is a less painful way of getting the extra mana (since it usually removes something I can't use anyway, like E-bolt vs. Stompy or something).
@consumtivegoo- I like that deck, it looks good, however i really don't like the hammer, hammer=sorcery, sorcery=not good. If it were an instant, i'd say go for it, but Big Red is a reactive deck, it doesn't want to be playing removal in the main phases, i still think you'll find pulse a better choice. that's IMO anyway.
@Crono Temporal Tiem- I'd say the same thing to you as well. Also, while Furnace Whelp=tech against green decks (especially T&N), it usually ends up in you're graveyard pretty much immidiately against any other decks, i reckon it's a pretty awesome sideboard card though.
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YOURS MAY BE NEXT
Seriously, I have tried it fairly intensively, and the SDT enables you to seal off games you would have otherwise lost. (Usually by hitting them down out of Solemn Simulacrum/Reap and Sow range.
I dont think ponza will work in the current metagame. Too slow against affinity, and scoops to everything else. Sorry, but the results according to ZVI and kibler show this.
I think Ponza has a good matchup vs just about everything. I agree, it is not the best, or even 2nd best, but, it does have the tools to win.
I used to always kind of think down upon Ponza, until my freind Jim started to play it. Seriously, now i get anxious every time I play it. It does not have bad matchups vs everything, in fact, it has fairly decent matchups all around.
I will try to get Jim's list this Friday/Saturday, or at least asap.
I also think we got a HUGE boost with the Genju of the Spires. I'm thinking of running 3, and also trying to squeeze in Crack the Earth. I run 12 LD as it is, so 16 may be a bit of an overload, but on the other side of the coin running 3x Chrome Mox and 4x Desperate Ritual MD means that you've got a hell of a good chance to hit that turn 2 LD, and a small possibility of hitting a turn 1 second play LD as well.
IMO in almost all decks running the Divining Top is a waste of space. I've seen it used in some decks (I run 2x in Death Cloud for the sole reason that the accel in the deck lets me shuffle so much) to absolutely amazing results, but more often than not it sucks. Ponza doesn't have much space left over if you're looking to play it to its best (maximun LD and removal, no Zo-Zus). If you were really dead set on using the top I think it would behoove you to put in artifact land and run Shrapnel Blast as well. If you're gonna play a sub-par card you might as well get the best bang for your buck.
Errr....Like I just said, I never thought it was the best or anything, I just think that people underestimate the deck.
All I have to say about the SDT. Just try it. You will find out that it is best abused in this deck than no other. I was one fo the 1st people around to say the card sucked when it came out, and I still stick by that. Everyone else pretty much flamed me, but I still stick by it. The thing is, as I said over and over again, it enables you to easily fetch the 4th LD to seal up a game, w/out having to resort to magma jet to do that. I would run 2, just because getting multiples sucks really bad.
I think ponza is a good deck and doesnt really have that many bad matchups... good all around as somebody said in earlier threads. Also I took mine apart because i know its good all around but just didnt win for me. Also kind of boring to play w/ after numerous times.
@ piledriver: er, woops, I didn't mean that ponza was tight. I was thinking of raffinity... I'm gonna chalk it up to the booze, but stupidity most likely played a big role. Lets givem both a great hand!
@Theultimateninja: Genju would be a good card if it weren't for the large amounts of 1/1 creatures in the environment. Its just chump blocked most of the time, even with the burn in this deck.
:bunnycake:
YOURS MAY BE NEXT
Um...noob ponza isnt a good deck. All the playtest results point to that.
Flame Warning
-sneaky
i'm not a noob and yes it is a decent deck... just boring.
EDIT: and earl pants is probably a noob becuase he probably doesnt konw how to play with the deck at all and just feels better when he calls other ppl noobs
Please don't feed the troll.:)
-sneaky
Not much your oponent can do when your consitantly droping turn 2 or 3 sloggers and Shivans
here is mydeck list
4 Slith firewalkers
4 Arc Sloggers
2 Shivan Dragons
2 Zo-Zu
4 Stone Rain
4 Molten Rain
4 Demolish
4 E-Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Seathing Song
1 Beacon of Destruction
1 Fireball
4 Chrome Mox
20 Mountain
SB
3 Shatter
3 Hearth Kami
2 Piroclasum
4 Grab the Rains
3 Shunt
now the key to winning is the way you side board
against affinity you take out the stone rain and demolish and in goes the hearth kami, shatter, and piro.
any control Decks get the shunt
TnN gets the rains
mirror gets the rains and shunts
it works out prity well for me
me: 9378498/9378498
Stormy: Im never playing against you again.
me: and this was done with out an earthcraft
Anyhoo, does neryone run 4 slogger? I seem to draw them way too frequently with 4 in my deck.
:symw::symu: Merfolk
Definitely not an aggro player.
@Squirrel: Why the one-offs of Beacon of Destruction and Fireball? It seems like you'd be better off choosing one and sticking to it.
TNS: The New Standard (In Deckbuilding)
Running Ponza
First Match against some Green/Black thing.
Both games go simular to this.
I blow up 5 lands and my opponent makes his 6th land drop ~turn 12.
Out come the Black Legendary dragons. Game.
Record 0-2
Vs Viral Affinity.
Game 1:
I keep him down and ~turn 4 he gets a raveger out.
Played Grab the Reigns vs against Raveger. (fun for me)
We trade a bit. I get board controll with a Slogger. He shrapnel blasts the slogger @ 6 life.
He top decks some beater, I die.
Game 2:
I have Kumano out, 4 mountains and a stalking stone. Life Me @ 2, Him ~13.
He top decks a 2nd Blinkmoth nexus
I play a Echoing Ruin (vs a Cranal Plating or something)
He flies over for 2... MIS-Play
Match 3 vs KCI:
Game 1:
He keeps a 0 land hand and plays a mox. I hearth kami the mox and he scoops.
Game 2:
Silith comes out turn 1.
I start beating on land, he makes land drops but can't get the combo together.
Dies to silith
Match 4: vs a R/B/U Sceptre//Horobi//Endless Whispers
Game 1:
I kill the Sceptre, he gets Horibi and Whispers out.
Slith beats him while I keep targeting and taking Horobi.
@ 3 life he topdecks another Horobi and makes it a draw.
Game 2 and 3:
New strategy Kill the black instead of Red/Blue.
He dies with nothing going on.
50/50
Also played some side games vs T&N and Affinity.
Went ~50% vs T&N, never got it going against affinity.
Lessons of the day just play shatter, and the deck is a little slow.
Hacked my deck. New Version.
4 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Shock
2 Fireball
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Stone Rain
4 Molten Rain
2 Demolish
1 Guardian Idol (mox Place Holder #1)
1 Chrome Mox
4 Slith
4 Hearth Kami
2 Shivan
1 Kumano
1 Arc Slogger
Land
1 Blinkmoth Nexus (mox Place Holder #2)
21 Mountains (1 is mox Place Holder #3)
Board
2x Grab the Reigns
2x Pulse of the Forge
2x Zo-Zu
2x Boil
1x Hammer of Bogarden
2x Detonate
4x Shatter
Yuuki Matsuda
1st Place - Mie-ken
Lands
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel" target="blank">Darksteel Citadel
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
8 Mountain
(20 land)
Creatures
4 Furnace Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Solemn Simulacrum
(12 creatures)
Other
4 Chrome Mox" target="blank">Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song" target="blank">Seething Song
4 Pulse of the Forge" target="blank">Pulse of the Forge
4 Sensei's Divining Top" target="blank">Sensei's Divining Top
4 Magma Jet" target="blank">Magma Jet
4 Electrostatic Bolt" target="blank">Electrostatic Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast" target="blank">Shrapnel Blast
(28 other spells)
Sideboard
4 Zo-Zu the Punisher" target="blank">Zo-Zu the Punisher
4 Stone Rain" target="blank">Stone Rain
3 Molten Rain" target="blank">Molten Rain
4 Hearth Kami" target="blank">Hearth Kami
(15 sideboard cards)
What do you guys think? I like it a lot.
Thanks 'Tog for the Banner, it's rules.
Thirsty for Chicken?
:vader: Yankees Rock:vader:
:trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper: :trooper:
The Story of Raffinity
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=100284#post100284
Get em ' While they're Hot!!
T2:
G/W Control
1.X:
Goblin Revenge
I seam to draw the one i need when i need it so it realy doesn't affect me that much. Having the one beacon in there saves me sometimes agains white and its damn enchantments when i cant kill them outright i have to resort to decking them out.
me: 9378498/9378498
Stormy: Im never playing against you again.
me: and this was done with out an earthcraft
:symw::symu: Merfolk
Definitely not an aggro player.
:bunnycake:
YOURS MAY BE NEXT
Creatures
4 Hearth Kami
3 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Ryusei, the Falling Star
3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Seething Song
3 Hammer of Bogardan
3 Flamebreak
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Great Furnace
16 Mountain
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
I found Hammers to work better than pulses as my life is usually above theirs, and it has the ability to remove creatures. The flamebreaks will probably be moved to the side for Genjus when BOK becomes legal.
Constructive Comments plz.
___________________________________
23 Mountain
4 Hearth Kami
4 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Arc Slogger
4 Vulshok Sorceror
4 Seething Song
4 Hammer of Bogardan
4 Pulse of the Forge
3 Furnace Whelp
2 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
I've yet to fine tweak the deck, but, here are a few notes:
Furnace Whelp is underrated. If you can disrupt Tooth and Nail on turn 4 using Sowing Salt, Furnace Whelp finishes them off in a few swings.
Slith Firewalker....is only good when played turn 1. This requires you to play Chrome Mox. Playing Chrome Mox puts you at a disadvantage against any green based deck, so that isn't the wisest thing to do, especially since green based decks all run 4 Sakura Tribe Elders. After a turn or two of chump blocking, your Slith is a measley 2/2 or 3/3 at best. Slith belongs more in Ponza, or at a stretch RDW. But not Big Red.
Vulshok Sorceror is really good. It becomes sick if you manage to get 2 in play.
That's all for now.
:symw::symu: Merfolk
Definitely not an aggro player.
@Crono Temporal Tiem- I'd say the same thing to you as well. Also, while Furnace Whelp=tech against green decks (especially T&N), it usually ends up in you're graveyard pretty much immidiately against any other decks, i reckon it's a pretty awesome sideboard card though.
Thanks 'Tog for the Banner, it's rules.