Quash is like a limited Cranial Extraction, and we all know just how much Cranial Extraction hurt T&N (especially when the person extracts T&N itself:rofl: )
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quash is more limited but if it counters TN (obv), some kind of land search spell, it ruins the TN guys' day. Yeah they can hardcast stuff maybe(like titan), but the time bought is valuable.
The point is that, against T&N, all Blood Moon does is slow them down a little. They're still going to, inevitably, cast T&N against you. UG is simply not the type of deck that is going to win before T&N gets to it's 9 mana.
Obviously Quash isn't going to do alot against Titan himself. That's what Mana Leak and Hinder are for. Honestly, for UG, if you can Quash their T&Ns and just counter Titan/Mindslaver..you win. And it's not that hard..you draw infinitely more cards than they do, and have card selection, which they don't, as well.
:banhim: uh... actually, that's :iagree: Get your signs right, stupid smiley!
so, anyway, quash seems much better IMO. i'd rather take away their T&N's and counter their hard-cast threats than stall a few turns while they draw more lands off all the landsearch they have.
The point is that, against T&N, all Blood Moon does is slow them down a little. They're still going to, inevitably, cast T&N against you. UG is simply not the type of deck that is going to win before T&N gets to it's 9 mana.
Obviously Quash isn't going to do alot against Titan himself. That's what Mana Leak and Hinder are for. Honestly, for UG, if you can Quash their T&Ns and just counter Titan/Mindslaver..you win. And it's not that hard..you draw infinitely more cards than they do, and have card selection, which they don't, as well.
One aspect of Blood Moon that I like (besides slowing them several turns) is that it stops Boseiju.
The difference is, Blood Moon doesn't slow them down for a 'few turns'. To get their fourth turn kill, they have to successfully cast at least 3 land-search spells (assuming they're uncountered of course) and play 5 lands, 3 of which Blood Moon will disrupt. So if we take into account the average mana cost of a card in Tooth and Nail (Which is pretty damn high!), the number of lands they've got left in their library (17) and the fact that they've only got hardly any land-search left (8), they won't be reaching nine mana again before you let them. Not to mention, without the bonus of the Tron, their land-search is now terrrible quality... Reap and Sow for a Forest? Or maybe it's a Sylvan Scrying? Blood Moon does so much to throw of Tooth and Nail it's not even funny...
Quash is a counter that just says to me, "Let's hope they don't have anything else they can do for a few turns..." while Blood Moon says, "You whither and squirm over there, and I'll relax for a few turns..."
how does quash say that, though? think about it, if you remove all their T&N's, they're not gonna have anything else. maybe they'll have a T&N threat in hand. even if they do, you still run other counters in the deck.
Saying the deck can't kill you without a Tooth and Nail is plain foolish. If countering the Tooths solved the problem, wouldn't Hinder and Leak solved the problem long ago? Tooth and Nail can still hardcast all of the baddies and kill you, that is, unless you drop a Blood Moon and stint their growth for several turns.
I didn't say that T&N can't win without Tooth and Nail. however, this doesn't mean that it's a bad card in their deck. the deck is called "Tooth and Nail" for a reason. getting rid of all of their tooth and nails is good. it also means you don't have to splash an extra color, which can be annoying when you've got a hand with an island, a mountain, and a sakura tribe elder. At times like that you wish you weren't splashing. Chances are, a tooth and Nail player doesn't have another threat in hand when they play it. if they do, ok, but blood moon wouldn't have helped any more than quash in that situation anyway. Several turns off the blood moonwill get you a counter, maybe, to counter the Tooth and Nail. but then, they might have another one, or another threat.
Several turns completely throws Tooth and Nail off of its game! The deck is focused on the early game because it MUST win by then. There were times when I played Tooth and Nail I got so desperate for a land, I was getting angry... And that's by turn 5 or 6.
Blood Moon buys you several turns and puts a giant wrench in Tooth and Nail's plan.
Try the Tooth and Nail matchup with Blood Moons sided and see how it goes though if you must.
Saying that if you simply deal with their TaN then you will win win the match is just not true. TaN still has ways of beating you, however to say that say if this was the case then Hinder and Mana Leak would have done the trick a long time ago is simply absurd. Just for a second we will say that our opponent is actually semi-good, they will never allow for a TaN to be mana leaked, never. You will want to be using mana leak of reap and sow or sylvan scrying. Game 2 they scrying on turn 2 because we tapped out to play a sakura (which no matter what is still the right play) and grab boseiju essentially neautralizing our hinders, and lets not forget that they play just as many witness as we do. For this same reason I wouldnt run quash, game 2 when it comes in Boseiju does too and then it becomes another dead card.
Bribery is strictly better in every case to Keiga. You dont have to wait around for it to get killed, you can cast it a turn earlier and it cant be duplicated or dealt with in any number of ways. Bribery is just more effective.
BloodMoon v. Cranial Extraction
A very interesting argument, to say the least. I would just like to point out first that my opinion has nothing to do with the people making claims that Blood Moon is the way to go, in the past we have butted heads but again to reitterate that has nothing to do with it.
Blood Moon does in fact solve the mana superiority issue, however blood moon still allows them to cast Titan and now they can hard cast Kikki-Jikki which they couldnt do before. Extraction takes out Titan, and anything after the first cranial gets rid of rude, collosus or tooth. I agree that tooth needs to be put off tempo very early in the game, and turn 1 SDT can be VERY problematic, however I would rather mana leak early land searchers and cast cranial turn4 on titan instead of playing the moon. BloodMoon slows them down but cranial can rip there deck to shreds. Also shy away from the tooth match up for a second, games 2 and 3 how many decks would you want to have blood moon over extraction. Blood moon, 0.
Now with people saying how important it is to throw a wrench in the early game then possibly we need to go back to the right countermagic numbers, I think most of us are running mana leak and hinder, but condescend seems to be gaining stock.
Now with people saying how important it is to throw a wrench in the early game then possibly we need to go back to the right countermagic numbers, I think most of us are running mana leak and hinder, but condescend seems to be gaining stock.
I agree, i've gone to 4 hinder and 3 condescend for now, and it's been pretty good for me. also, what does everyone think about 1 keiga in the main, perhaps as a fifth win condition, or instead of 1 meloku. in the JSS yesterday, i went 3-3, losing 3 rounds to affinity. my friend told me to add one keiga in the main, right before the tournament. it worked great, i won most of my games with keiga, including the one where it was control vs. control and there were 5 min left in the round. i barely cast meloku at all, it didn't help all that much.
hmmm... I think maybe you misunderstood the point I was getting at regarding the countermagic. Against TaN I dont feasibly see a way to shut down there early land tutors without running mana leak, condesecend and hinder. They run reap and sow as well as scrying and Im pretty sure Im going to be saving my hinders for tooth or titan. I dont know what your list looks like so obv I cant make any concrete suggestions as to what needs to be added and what needs to get taken out. Recently I have seen more U/G running shackles in the place that condescend had in the deck a month or so ago. I suppose it is metagame dependant, if you see alot of affinity which sounds like you do then I would run shackles but if Tooth was running rampant than condescend seems like it would be a better choice.
I would tend to disagree with your friend regarding Keiga. The point of the deck is to smash with rude, period and Im sure nearly everyone will agree with me. Are there games that I win with meloku and his pals, sure but not nearly as many as I have won by animating my lands. You said that maybe you should take out a meloku for a keiga. Again I dont know your numbers but it would probably bring your totals to 1x keiga, 1x meloku (as most lists run 2 meloku). Essentially I dont think you need a 5/5 beater, meloku is much better in the fact that it can let you stabilize and cast rude whereas Keiga can olny block 1 guy, and he needs to die before you get his full effect. Meloku is sooo much better against every deck whereas Keiga is theoretically solid against tooth but last I checked they ran duplicant and because of that I run bribery as like I previously stated is simply better. Stick with 2x meloku and no keiga md or even sb for that matter.
Im slightly worried by your record, especially against affinity. If out of 6 matches you faced at least 3 affinity decks and you lost all 3 you need to go back and do some testing. I admit some games against affinity are simply unwinnable, not a whole lot you can do when your losing 3 for every artifact they sac. U/G probably has one of the best matchups with affinity in t2. To say that you went 0-X against the deck all day should be telling you something. I dont mean to sound like a jerk or to say that you are a bad player but that shouldnt happen. Either you arent testing enough or you arent making optimal decisions.
not that i went 0-3, just that every loss was to affinity. i beat affinity, too. there was a surprising amount of affinity. admittedly, i wasn't prepared enough. not enough artifact hate. but that's not the point.
What i was saying about Meloku is that a lot of times he seems like not a win condition but a stall option until you can draw Rude. sometimes, however, if they have echoing decay, you can't expect to win with just rude. sure, you've got counters, but they may also have hideous laughter. i see your point though. perhaps i was getting to overexcited about keiga due to it's excellent performance with me. i haven't done any testing with keiga; most testing has been with 2-3 rude, 2 meloku. I should also point out that I run bribery too, against T&N.
As to countermagic, i'm not sure, really, what to do. there are seven slots for counters, in my build at least, but i could fit in eight. right now i'm thinking of 4 hinder, 2 condescend, 2 leak. hinders are really good, especially against control as whatever you counter can't be witnessed back. 3 hinder and 3 leak might be beter though.
wow the entire field must have been affinity if you played it more than 3 times in 6 rounds. Just out of curiosity what decks did you play against because right now accroding to your results you played affinity at least 4 times and managed to come away 1-3. what were the other 2 decks you beat?
I dont think you go with 3 hinder 3 leak. 4 hinders are a must.
I agree with you, I dont look at meloku as a win condition. Like I said sometimes I do win with him but most of the time I win with rude. For the reason you state that you dont like meloku I like meloku. He is a stall option, but never have I found in all my time playing magic that being ability to pump out a continous stream of chump blockers is a bad thing. He stalls so you can find rude. Echoing decay and hideous laughter can be problematic, if you dont have answers and late game I would hardly call mana leak or condescend answers. I guess this is just another justification as to why extraction should be run over blood moon. I dont see the MBC match very often but it should become much easier games 2 and 3 if you board in extraction and bribery.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
SB:
4 Plow Under
4 March of the Machines
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Condescend
2 Ju-Shi Apprentice
The changes I made were:
-3 TfK
+3 Echoing Truth
SB:
+4 Plow Under
-3 Temporal Adept
-1 Condescend
The reason for this was that, as I played the deck against more decks(specifically, against decks running Firewalker and Zozu), not having any sort of bounce was simply killing me...I just had no way to deal with those guys, and those guys get nasty in a hurry. Because Truth works to recur Witness as well, I haven't really missed TfK at all.
I changed to Plow for various reasons. Adept was really good against T&N..but simply awful against anything else. I barely boarded Adept in against anything, whereas Plow comes in against every G/x match, along with T&N and other random control decks as well. I still like JuShi Apprentice tons, because he makes the mirror, BG, and T&N infinitely easier for you.
Also, once Betrayers is released, I will most likely cut Condescend and JuShi Apprentice completely, replacing them with Quash.
looks good to me. I have run both versions with echoing truth and without it. Turn 1 firewalker is tough to deal with even with echoing truth, not running it seems like a mistake.
I suppose the deck has been through quite a bit of evolution recently. The slots that people have been experimenting seem to be consistently regarding v-shackles, v-shaman, and echoing truth. I understand your logic because shackles are a house against affinity and although I thought I would never say it but shaman may be a bit excessive md, it does fit in perfectly sb. Plow under is a card that has be theorized an awful lot about and Im still not completely sold with the idea. I would assume that it comes in against tooth and BG (more than likely any other deck running rude except the mirror). However, against tooth no one has yet to convince me that plow is better than extraction. No bribery in the sb is also a little sketchy to me. I am no self proclaimed mind reader but it would seem viable that against tooth you would bring in plow, condescend and jushi. Wouldnt extraction, bribery, condescend be just as if not more effective?
I know you said Jushi was probably coming out and thats a move I would definately make as I tend to hypothesize the same thought you have regarding a rise in the popularity in red post BoK.
Ive never really found that TfK has be so ridiculously useful that I couldnt live without it.
Btw Cyan that banner is sick.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
I've been contemplating the popularity of red after BoK as well. I do like your list, except for the lack of Bribery in the SB, but Plow Under is indeed useful, as well as Jushi Apprentice
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in all the games ive played with my G/U, i have never once cast meloku....all the games have been won with rude awakening, or beating with keiga. which led me to decided to drop azusa, since i was never using meloku, azusa wasnt doing much. im currently trying crystal shard instead. as for gifts ungiven/TFK, i wasnt running eother of them:yikes: , only because i couldnt decide between the two. i still havnt decided after reading the debate in this thread....
I find that meloku is amazing in this deck...almost always he stabilizes the board as soon as you untap, and is a beating flyer in the air. It might just be my play style, but I like Meloku better. Rude pulls games out of nowhere, while Meloku wins games slowly, and keeps you in good board position AFTER something goes wrong.
FBI Boy;
To say that you have never cast Meloku when playing U/G just means that you clearly hvaent played the deck enough. And Keiga beatings? Im pretty sure most of use are share the same opinion about Keiga, just read back a few pages. Also to say that you arent running cards because you simply cant choose between them isnt a very promising notion.
Pol2;
I agree with everything you said.
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In IBTG we trust
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
I think the popularity of red after BoK is arguable at best... Honestly, a few cards that don't help to improve its match against Affinity aren't great... And getting Sowing Salts isn't the end-all of Tooth and Nail as Ponza's naturally been great against Tooth and Nail all along...
I dont mean to split hairs but I really dislike being misquoted;I never said that red would be good, I merley stated that it would be popular. I witnessed some chronies at my store nearly cream themselves after reading the red genju, frostling and sowing salt. The olny aspect that it has gained is as you mentioned, Sowing Salt. It seemed liked red/x control decks packed either 8 Land D spells md or sb to deal with tooth, now all they need is 4 slots. I mean we only have a partial spoiler to work with so all of this is pure specualtion.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
well yah i guess i have only played it 12 times, but you have to admit, thats stioll pretty unlucky to have never had the chance to cast her. also, i didnt say i dropped meloku, i said i dropped azusa. and sorry, what is the opinion on keiga? i read back to the start and couldnt really find anything. I see that YOU dont think its worthwhile....i saw it in a few decklists and sideboards, and then one opinion that bribery is better, but thats it. as for TFK and gifts, i said i wasnt using either at the moment because I couldnt decide on the 2. i didnt say i wasnt going to run either EVER. i was reading the posts here to try and decide which has worked better, but it seems to be about 50/50.
Quash is like a limited Cranial Extraction, and we all know just how much Cranial Extraction hurt T&N (especially when the person extracts T&N itself:rofl: )
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Obviously Quash isn't going to do alot against Titan himself. That's what Mana Leak and Hinder are for. Honestly, for UG, if you can Quash their T&Ns and just counter Titan/Mindslaver..you win. And it's not that hard..you draw infinitely more cards than they do, and have card selection, which they don't, as well.
so, anyway, quash seems much better IMO. i'd rather take away their T&N's and counter their hard-cast threats than stall a few turns while they draw more lands off all the landsearch they have.
One aspect of Blood Moon that I like (besides slowing them several turns) is that it stops Boseiju.
Quash is a counter that just says to me, "Let's hope they don't have anything else they can do for a few turns..." while Blood Moon says, "You whither and squirm over there, and I'll relax for a few turns..."
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Saying the deck can't kill you without a Tooth and Nail is plain foolish. If countering the Tooths solved the problem, wouldn't Hinder and Leak solved the problem long ago? Tooth and Nail can still hardcast all of the baddies and kill you, that is, unless you drop a Blood Moon and stint their growth for several turns.
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Blood Moon buys you several turns and puts a giant wrench in Tooth and Nail's plan.
Try the Tooth and Nail matchup with Blood Moons sided and see how it goes though if you must.
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1 Minamo
1 Okina
11 Forest
10 Island
4 Eternal Witness
4 Viridian Shaman
3 Veldaken Shackles
4 Echoing truth
4 Mana Leak
3 hinder
4 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Meloku
2 Rude Awakening
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kodama's Reach
SIDEBOARD
4 Plow Under
3 Bribery
3 Oxidize
2 naturalize
3 March of the machines
It's important to counter tnn's Land searchers and sensei's divining top. My five cents! :-P
Bribery is strictly better in every case to Keiga. You dont have to wait around for it to get killed, you can cast it a turn earlier and it cant be duplicated or dealt with in any number of ways. Bribery is just more effective.
BloodMoon v. Cranial Extraction
A very interesting argument, to say the least. I would just like to point out first that my opinion has nothing to do with the people making claims that Blood Moon is the way to go, in the past we have butted heads but again to reitterate that has nothing to do with it.
Blood Moon does in fact solve the mana superiority issue, however blood moon still allows them to cast Titan and now they can hard cast Kikki-Jikki which they couldnt do before. Extraction takes out Titan, and anything after the first cranial gets rid of rude, collosus or tooth. I agree that tooth needs to be put off tempo very early in the game, and turn 1 SDT can be VERY problematic, however I would rather mana leak early land searchers and cast cranial turn4 on titan instead of playing the moon. BloodMoon slows them down but cranial can rip there deck to shreds. Also shy away from the tooth match up for a second, games 2 and 3 how many decks would you want to have blood moon over extraction. Blood moon, 0.
Now with people saying how important it is to throw a wrench in the early game then possibly we need to go back to the right countermagic numbers, I think most of us are running mana leak and hinder, but condescend seems to be gaining stock.
Anon - control RGW
I agree, i've gone to 4 hinder and 3 condescend for now, and it's been pretty good for me. also, what does everyone think about 1 keiga in the main, perhaps as a fifth win condition, or instead of 1 meloku. in the JSS yesterday, i went 3-3, losing 3 rounds to affinity. my friend told me to add one keiga in the main, right before the tournament. it worked great, i won most of my games with keiga, including the one where it was control vs. control and there were 5 min left in the round. i barely cast meloku at all, it didn't help all that much.
I would tend to disagree with your friend regarding Keiga. The point of the deck is to smash with rude, period and Im sure nearly everyone will agree with me. Are there games that I win with meloku and his pals, sure but not nearly as many as I have won by animating my lands. You said that maybe you should take out a meloku for a keiga. Again I dont know your numbers but it would probably bring your totals to 1x keiga, 1x meloku (as most lists run 2 meloku). Essentially I dont think you need a 5/5 beater, meloku is much better in the fact that it can let you stabilize and cast rude whereas Keiga can olny block 1 guy, and he needs to die before you get his full effect. Meloku is sooo much better against every deck whereas Keiga is theoretically solid against tooth but last I checked they ran duplicant and because of that I run bribery as like I previously stated is simply better. Stick with 2x meloku and no keiga md or even sb for that matter.
Im slightly worried by your record, especially against affinity. If out of 6 matches you faced at least 3 affinity decks and you lost all 3 you need to go back and do some testing. I admit some games against affinity are simply unwinnable, not a whole lot you can do when your losing 3 for every artifact they sac. U/G probably has one of the best matchups with affinity in t2. To say that you went 0-X against the deck all day should be telling you something. I dont mean to sound like a jerk or to say that you are a bad player but that shouldnt happen. Either you arent testing enough or you arent making optimal decisions.
Anon - control RGW
What i was saying about Meloku is that a lot of times he seems like not a win condition but a stall option until you can draw Rude. sometimes, however, if they have echoing decay, you can't expect to win with just rude. sure, you've got counters, but they may also have hideous laughter. i see your point though. perhaps i was getting to overexcited about keiga due to it's excellent performance with me. i haven't done any testing with keiga; most testing has been with 2-3 rude, 2 meloku. I should also point out that I run bribery too, against T&N.
As to countermagic, i'm not sure, really, what to do. there are seven slots for counters, in my build at least, but i could fit in eight. right now i'm thinking of 4 hinder, 2 condescend, 2 leak. hinders are really good, especially against control as whatever you counter can't be witnessed back. 3 hinder and 3 leak might be beter though.
I dont think you go with 3 hinder 3 leak. 4 hinders are a must.
I agree with you, I dont look at meloku as a win condition. Like I said sometimes I do win with him but most of the time I win with rude. For the reason you state that you dont like meloku I like meloku. He is a stall option, but never have I found in all my time playing magic that being ability to pump out a continous stream of chump blockers is a bad thing. He stalls so you can find rude. Echoing decay and hideous laughter can be problematic, if you dont have answers and late game I would hardly call mana leak or condescend answers. I guess this is just another justification as to why extraction should be run over blood moon. I dont see the MBC match very often but it should become much easier games 2 and 3 if you board in extraction and bribery.
Anon - control RGW
I've made a couple of slight changes to my deck, to reflect the fact that I think people will start to play significantly more after Betrayers.
Here's my decklist now:
4 Hinder
4 Mana Leak
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Serum Visions
4 Eternal Witness
4 Oxidize
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Echoing Truth
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Rude Awakening
2 Meloku
11 Forest
10 Island
1 Minamo
1 Okina
SB:
4 Plow Under
4 March of the Machines
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Condescend
2 Ju-Shi Apprentice
The changes I made were:
-3 TfK
+3 Echoing Truth
SB:
+4 Plow Under
-3 Temporal Adept
-1 Condescend
The reason for this was that, as I played the deck against more decks(specifically, against decks running Firewalker and Zozu), not having any sort of bounce was simply killing me...I just had no way to deal with those guys, and those guys get nasty in a hurry. Because Truth works to recur Witness as well, I haven't really missed TfK at all.
I changed to Plow for various reasons. Adept was really good against T&N..but simply awful against anything else. I barely boarded Adept in against anything, whereas Plow comes in against every G/x match, along with T&N and other random control decks as well. I still like JuShi Apprentice tons, because he makes the mirror, BG, and T&N infinitely easier for you.
Also, once Betrayers is released, I will most likely cut Condescend and JuShi Apprentice completely, replacing them with Quash.
I suppose the deck has been through quite a bit of evolution recently. The slots that people have been experimenting seem to be consistently regarding v-shackles, v-shaman, and echoing truth. I understand your logic because shackles are a house against affinity and although I thought I would never say it but shaman may be a bit excessive md, it does fit in perfectly sb. Plow under is a card that has be theorized an awful lot about and Im still not completely sold with the idea. I would assume that it comes in against tooth and BG (more than likely any other deck running rude except the mirror). However, against tooth no one has yet to convince me that plow is better than extraction. No bribery in the sb is also a little sketchy to me. I am no self proclaimed mind reader but it would seem viable that against tooth you would bring in plow, condescend and jushi. Wouldnt extraction, bribery, condescend be just as if not more effective?
I know you said Jushi was probably coming out and thats a move I would definately make as I tend to hypothesize the same thought you have regarding a rise in the popularity in red post BoK.
Ive never really found that TfK has be so ridiculously useful that I couldnt live without it.
Btw Cyan that banner is sick.
Anon - control RGW
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:symw::symu: Hannah
Sad Day's Tommorow
Almost Nine-Tails
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Banner by Alex.
MEGAMATT
EDIT: made it make sense. that was terrible.
-=T2=-
:symu::symg: Control
To say that you have never cast Meloku when playing U/G just means that you clearly hvaent played the deck enough. And Keiga beatings? Im pretty sure most of use are share the same opinion about Keiga, just read back a few pages. Also to say that you arent running cards because you simply cant choose between them isnt a very promising notion.
Pol2;
I agree with everything you said.
Anon - control RGW
I guess we can only wait and see.
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Anon - control RGW
well yah i guess i have only played it 12 times, but you have to admit, thats stioll pretty unlucky to have never had the chance to cast her. also, i didnt say i dropped meloku, i said i dropped azusa. and sorry, what is the opinion on keiga? i read back to the start and couldnt really find anything. I see that YOU dont think its worthwhile....i saw it in a few decklists and sideboards, and then one opinion that bribery is better, but thats it. as for TFK and gifts, i said i wasnt using either at the moment because I couldnt decide on the 2. i didnt say i wasnt going to run either EVER. i was reading the posts here to try and decide which has worked better, but it seems to be about 50/50.
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