Yeah, thats the same way i fell about BG. it needs to go more aggro to be competive again. Also running 4 Perscutes seems a little overbored, i know you want to draw i early but it isnt worth running 4 of them. I also think you need to run some Shamans. I would say, take out Rend Flesh for Terrors, and take out 2 Perscutes for 2 Shamans. also look into maybe only running 2/3 Solems for more creature removal and more shamans.
I'd add another Cloud and kokusho and drop x2 persecute. other than that, the deck looks great!
I don't think you need more death clouds or Kokusho, this deck actually can hurt its self by using a death cloud, and by that i wouldnt run 4. Also Kokusho is very high CC so i would only play 3, even if i had the mana i would only run 3 kokushos.
I think Dr.Toms list needs more removal and Shamans and then it will be great.
God I despise seeing Kokusho in the current Metagame. Mono Blue just nukes you if you're playing Kokusho! Slow, Clunky and only good in matches that you ought to win anyways is what I think of when the subject of Kokusho comes up. If you want to play Death Cloud, fine. Play it. But Kokusho is not an auto-include.
I could agree with that, but you should'nt be playing this deck against heavy MUC anyways. But if your worried about MUC run something along the lines of Sylvan Syrcing and Boseiju or Molder Slug.
Also i do really like the idea of main-decked Perscutes in this deck like Dr.Tom uses.
I've been having some trouble with the aggro build. I may not have done enough testing, but I find it very difficult to cast DC - which is my favorite aspect of the deck. I think the creature count may need to be kept to only the most effective creatures, along the lines of Troll, Witness, Elder, Shaman (maybe zealot), and possibly Kokusho and Slug. Spot removal can lay low, but the deck should resume its focus around DC. Boarded boseiju's and scryings, and naturalize if not MD (which I don't think it needs to be) should give us the edge we need - along with some nice discard effects.
Overall, I think we need to lay out a general strategy as far as playing agains MUC. A turn by turn analysis or something might be helpful to spark some insight as to just how to play out the matchup. For example, slow rolling the game with dropping one threat and trying to make it stick, or pumping out as many spells as possible to overwhelm your opponent.
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I have found my build to be fairly effective against MUC. I am able to disrupt their early game (hopefully) with Ravenous Rats and Graverobbers. Also, Spawning Pit and Plunge give this deck maindeck answers (in a sense) against Shackles. I have found that the best way to beat MUC is an early threat followed by ramping up your mana and playing conservatively until they can deal with your threat or you are able to win the counter war by having more questions than they have answers for. Anyway, if I am able to flip a robber and get a spawning pit on the table, I have an advantage machine that they cannot deal with effectively. Their biggest threat to me is Meloku as she shuts down Cloud (for the most part) and my Pit/Pact death combo. To deal with things like that, 2 mainboard Extractions are enough for game 1. Really, on mainboard extractions, I think that if you test enough, you find that you are able to at least identify what your opponent may possibly have in their deck by the time you could cast it.
After boarding, I gain access to Persecute, Naturalize, Echoing Decay, Troll Ascetic and maybe Shaman (haven't decided if he is better there than 2 more extractions). The Troll is absolutely King **** against MUC and is good against most control decks right now. Persecute is just vicious, moreso even than extraction as it has the psychological impact but also carries the potential for immediate physical impact. I am considering running it main as my local meta is primarily mono-colored right now. Naturalize takes out shackles and the decay takes out tokens. These effects are more narrow and focused so I usually put the Trolls and 'Cutes in and if I can, I will wedge in either, or, or both (depending on what threat is fresh in my mind from game 1).
Anyway, it is funny that people are cooling off on Kokusho being the "go to guy" in this deck. I can recall being criticized for not running him. Anyway, drawback and all, I like Greater Harvester's ability better. It
After many emails with the fellows on my team, that list has changed a lot. It's now pretty much all aggro, so I don't really think it belongs in this thread anymore. Kokusho is out, as is anything that's overly expensive. I'm presently trying to assemble the deck on MTGO and get some more playing in with it there.
After many emails with the fellows on my team, that list has changed a lot. It's now pretty much all aggro, so I don't really think it belongs in this thread anymore. Kokusho is out, as is anything that's overly expensive. I'm presently trying to assemble the deck on MTGO and get some more playing in with it there.
What kind of changes have you made? I am most interested to see what you have in mind. BTW, this is my list:
Sideboard is all theory and preliminary stuff at this point. We obv have Extractions in there, and I'm sure Viridian Shaman will get a spot in the board, since it was a very late cut from the maindeck. Ebon Drake might draw some snickers, but it's a 3/3 flier for 3, and if it's suited up with either piece of equipment, it'll end the game well before the life you lose to it matters.
You can always equip the Jitte to it and gain 4 life a turn to try to offset it....
BG cannot go all-out aggro, Black has some of the best control out there right now, long with Green. If we. the BG players, have resolved to go all-out aggro, then aren't we simply better off playing Mono-Green Aggro/Beats/Control/whatever the hell it wants to be called this week or Mono-Black Aggro....which does have some decent aggro meat right now, I've gotta admit.
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aren't we simply better off playing Mono-Green [...] or Mono-Black Aggro
Well, MGA can't start attacking with a Jitted Ebon drake on turn 3, and MBA can't drop a troll on turn 2 either... so, i'd say it's worth the double color just to get the best 2-drops and 3-drops out there.
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Sideboard is all theory and preliminary stuff at this point. We obv have Extractions in there, and I'm sure Viridian Shaman will get a spot in the board, since it was a very late cut from the maindeck. Ebon Drake might draw some snickers, but it's a 3/3 flier for 3, and if it's suited up with either piece of equipment, it'll end the game well before the life you lose to it matters.
Interesting, although I think it should be more aggro-control as opposed to dedicated aggro. I think the deck loses quite a bit in draw quality when you take out the land thinning capabilities. I can see why you chose Cutthroat, but I would use Graverobber. His ability is wicked. Also, why no witness or tribe elders? That is almost 1/2 the reason to run green in the 1st place.
I did some playing Saturday, and the results with the straight-ahead-aggro-grr-grr-grr version were less than encouraging. A guy playing W/G control paddled me like it was his job, 5-0 in unsideboarded games (all games I played were unsideboarded, mainly because I'm not settling on a sideboard for this until the maindeck gets ironed out). I then beat U/G aggro/control 2 out of 3. G/B Death Cloud gave me a 4-2 drubbing. Then I'd had enough and changed the deck to this:
Armed with this new version, I played 6 games against a standard Beacon Green deck and beat it 5-1. Persecute was the nut high for me; when I got it early, I never took fewer than four cards with it, and every card put into the bin was a beefy man I would've preferred not to have come into play. Nezumi Cutthroat was great here: we basically creature-stalled one game, with each of us having a Troll or two, plus some other ground pounders. I had 2x Cutthroat, and because of that, I had a fast clock. Chittering Rats were good, though I think they'd be better against a deck more vulnerable to disruption.
Sideboard options are Cranial Extraction (obv), the 1 Mountain + 3-4 Boil plan, Naturalize, the 4th Persecute and the 4th Plow, and some others.
I think the biggest problem is the lack of a) removal and b) win condition. There is a nice discard/disruption theme with the rats, persecute, and plow, but if anything hits play you might be in some serious trouble. Jitte or SoFI seem like a must (at least one or the other) to give you an edge as far as card advantage and removal. As for me, I need to do some serious testing, but I think I will stick to the more control version.
Again, I'll probably need to do some testing and get the sideboard just right, but I want to see how this version fares against the current field. The way it is set up, it can still deal with the some of the higher tier decks. I think running BG without Death Cloud, or at least some form of spot removal is a little silly and defeats the purpose of the color combination to some extent.
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what are you guys' opinions on playing MD molder slugs. They seem decent if ur build doesnt run sword or jitte. they are good beaters, as well as being good against MUC WW and GR. Im still workin on getting my build up but i think the idea of playing them is a good one.
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I love slugs and I played them originally. While they are definitely useful against most decks to keep their artifacts/equipment in check, I just don't think they can cut it against MUC. Their 5cc tag has "counter me" all over it. I think the new strategy has to incoprorate a dense number of inexpensive threats to slip under counterspells, but still be powerful enough to deal with aggro. It's a hard blend to find.
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I dont think thats good logic. If we say that then we shouldnt play kokusho because his 6cc means counter me too.... and thats not right of course we play the dragon.
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I love slugs and I played them originally. While they are definitely useful against most decks to keep their artifacts/equipment in check, I just don't think they can cut it against MUC. Their 5cc tag has "counter me" all over it. I think the new strategy has to incoprorate a dense number of inexpensive threats to slip under counterspells, but still be powerful enough to deal with aggro. It's a hard blend to find.
If you've ever played against MUC then you would realize that to beat them you have to run them out of counters and be able to deal with meloku when it hits. You run the MUC player out of counters by making them counter every spell you play(which means you have to have more must-counter threats). This is the only way you will beat MUC. Maindecking Trolls and Slugs will help you a lot in the MUC matchup b/c they are must-counter spells, and you will be able to force death clouds/rude awakenings through if they counter all your creature threats.
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@Dr.Tom: I agree with Jedi about the removal. I like to use Grave Pact myself, but I also have my deck more designed to that end. I also sideboard echoing decay mostly for beaconites and melokians, but also the occasional Rude Awakening. I also board Persecutes and have 2 extractions main. I use Harvester as an overall finisher. He is not as good as the Dragon, but he definitely has more board impact overall. I am thinking about Slugs, but I have Spawning Pits that I don't want taken out be friendly fire.
As soon as I can get a good list of Saviors, I will begin testing to fit my deck into the meta-adjustment. I will post comprehensive analysis at that time.
Kokusho should be the first card you board out in the MUC matchup. Despite his raw power, he is not a card that will be countered, simply because he will be shackled. If not shackled, he is a prime bribery target, and one that is essentially impossible for us to deal with effectively.
The problem with "running more threats than they can counter" is this - MUC has superior card draw, and upwards of 14 counters (a safe minimum number). It is inevitable that we will run out of steam before they do unless you play smart. By loading up on "must counters," you have to be careful on what you select. While Slug is a must counter, he costs 5, making it difficult to cast safely until you hit 8 mana (you should NEVER play into a mana leak!!!). I think he can be used, but people need to understand that if you try and go spell for spell against MUC, you will lose. It seems better to me to try and force out multiple, albeit less potent, threats (i.e. Zealot, Shaman) in a single turn than it is to go with one larger threat (i.e. Molder Slug).
I think a good approach to this would be to compile a list of cards that really hurt MUC, and examine their weaknesses and strengths. Then maybe we can come to a consensus on how to shape the MD and SB. Here are some of my thoughts
Persecute -- This card essentially boils their hand and gives you an opportunity to lay down a threat safely. Ideally, you want to be casting this and a threat on the same turn.
Molder Slug -- Even if they shackles it, it won't help. It also can end the game right quick, taking out Stalking Stones and Magpie with ease.
Viridian Shaman -- Helps threaten MUC's board position by 2 for 1 on shackles or stalking stones or mox, and provides early "beats" that can be crucial in disrupting MUC's flow. Grinds to a halt against magpie or stones, and can be shackled.
Troll Ascetic -- I think Troll Ascetic is now a MD card for any green deck that knows it will be encountering MUC, or at least has good chances to. Deals with magpie, stones, and can't be shackled. Helpless against Meloku, though what non-trample creature isn't?
Viridian Zealot -- Slips right under MUC's turn 2 counter shield. Should never be shackled and clears out the shackles when needed, as well as providing early beats. Easily dealt with by magpie.
Kodama of the North Tree -- Tramples through any of MUC's defenses and cannot be shackled or boomeranged. Can be dangerous if Briberied, and cannot wield Jitte or other equipment. Also relatively expensive.
Nezumi Shortfang -- Slips under counter shield. Helps put some serious pressure on the hand of MUC, which is invaluable. Very easily shackled.
Humble Budoka -- Slips under counter shield and cannot be shackled. Provides early pressure, but succumbs to stones or magpie defenses.
There is a preliminary list, though I have neglected to mention artifacts yet. Feel free to add some of your own choices or bash some of mine.
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the thing i would like to say is that we cannot build our deck to just beat MUC. Even if it has to do it, we cannot forget matchups like tooth or ponza. so we should look at cards that hurt multiple matchups like persecute for example. I have been testing 3 persecute md with great success. it hurts all matchups if it resolves. U/x Mono Red Mono Black mono green and tooth all get hurt by it. Stuff like that would help us more then saying what beats the hell out of MUC.
My fav list against that deck would contain
3 persecute
3-4 troll ascetic
4 birds
2 genju
1 KONT
and a couple of slugs or so to kill slugs
or some naturalize to kill shackles, mox or stones
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Obviously when designing a sideboard, it is inherently going to contain narrowly situational cards. The trick is to find the ones that are not so narrow but still hose things well. Persecute definitely fits this bill as it hoses anything mono-color. I also run decay for the Rudes, Beaconites and Melokians. Then, Naturalize to help against things like shackles, equipment, and enchantments to boot. Trolls help against any control matchup. My final 2 slots have been dedicated to Extraction for lack of a better choice until recently. I tried Shaman in the slot and didn't like it. I am currently trying Boil because I think MUC will be out in force at Regionals.
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I don't think you need more death clouds or Kokusho, this deck actually can hurt its self by using a death cloud, and by that i wouldnt run 4. Also Kokusho is very high CC so i would only play 3, even if i had the mana i would only run 3 kokushos.
I think Dr.Toms list needs more removal and Shamans and then it will be great.
Also i do really like the idea of main-decked Perscutes in this deck like Dr.Tom uses.
Overall, I think we need to lay out a general strategy as far as playing agains MUC. A turn by turn analysis or something might be helpful to spark some insight as to just how to play out the matchup. For example, slow rolling the game with dropping one threat and trying to make it stick, or pumping out as many spells as possible to overwhelm your opponent.
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After boarding, I gain access to Persecute, Naturalize, Echoing Decay, Troll Ascetic and maybe Shaman (haven't decided if he is better there than 2 more extractions). The Troll is absolutely King **** against MUC and is good against most control decks right now. Persecute is just vicious, moreso even than extraction as it has the psychological impact but also carries the potential for immediate physical impact. I am considering running it main as my local meta is primarily mono-colored right now. Naturalize takes out shackles and the decay takes out tokens. These effects are more narrow and focused so I usually put the Trolls and 'Cutes in and if I can, I will wedge in either, or, or both (depending on what threat is fresh in my mind from game 1).
Anyway, it is funny that people are cooling off on Kokusho being the "go to guy" in this deck. I can recall being criticized for not running him. Anyway, drawback and all, I like Greater Harvester's ability better. It
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What kind of changes have you made? I am most interested to see what you have in mind. BTW, this is my list:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Nezumi Graverobber
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Greater Harvester
3 Death Cloud
3 Grave Pact
3 Spawning Pit
3 Night's Whisper
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Plunge Into Darkness
1 Beacon of Creation
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
10 Forest
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
3 Echoing Decay
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Persecute
2 Viridian Shaman
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Nezumi Cutthroat
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Ebon Drake
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Night's Whisper
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3 City of Brass
10 Forest
7 Swamp
Sideboard is all theory and preliminary stuff at this point. We obv have Extractions in there, and I'm sure Viridian Shaman will get a spot in the board, since it was a very late cut from the maindeck. Ebon Drake might draw some snickers, but it's a 3/3 flier for 3, and if it's suited up with either piece of equipment, it'll end the game well before the life you lose to it matters.
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BG cannot go all-out aggro, Black has some of the best control out there right now, long with Green. If we. the BG players, have resolved to go all-out aggro, then aren't we simply better off playing Mono-Green Aggro/Beats/Control/whatever the hell it wants to be called this week or Mono-Black Aggro....which does have some decent aggro meat right now, I've gotta admit.
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Well, MGA can't start attacking with a Jitted Ebon drake on turn 3, and MBA can't drop a troll on turn 2 either... so, i'd say it's worth the double color just to get the best 2-drops and 3-drops out there.
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Interesting, although I think it should be more aggro-control as opposed to dedicated aggro. I think the deck loses quite a bit in draw quality when you take out the land thinning capabilities. I can see why you chose Cutthroat, but I would use Graverobber. His ability is wicked. Also, why no witness or tribe elders? That is almost 1/2 the reason to run green in the 1st place.
I did some playing Saturday, and the results with the straight-ahead-aggro-grr-grr-grr version were less than encouraging. A guy playing W/G control paddled me like it was his job, 5-0 in unsideboarded games (all games I played were unsideboarded, mainly because I'm not settling on a sideboard for this until the maindeck gets ironed out). I then beat U/G aggro/control 2 out of 3. G/B Death Cloud gave me a 4-2 drubbing. Then I'd had enough and changed the deck to this:
4 Nezumi Cutthroat
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Eternal Witness
3 Chittering Rats
4 Night's Whisper
3 Persecute
3 Plow Under
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3 City of Brass
10 Forest
8 Swamp
Armed with this new version, I played 6 games against a standard Beacon Green deck and beat it 5-1. Persecute was the nut high for me; when I got it early, I never took fewer than four cards with it, and every card put into the bin was a beefy man I would've preferred not to have come into play. Nezumi Cutthroat was great here: we basically creature-stalled one game, with each of us having a Troll or two, plus some other ground pounders. I had 2x Cutthroat, and because of that, I had a fast clock. Chittering Rats were good, though I think they'd be better against a deck more vulnerable to disruption.
Sideboard options are Cranial Extraction (obv), the 1 Mountain + 3-4 Boil plan, Naturalize, the 4th Persecute and the 4th Plow, and some others.
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4x Troll Ascetic
4x Eternal Witness
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Viridian Zealot
-=Spells=- (23)
4x Terror
3x Persecute
3x Plow Under
3x Death Cloud
3x Kodama's Reach
3x Echoing Decay
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x City of Brass
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
11x Forest
8x Swamp
4x Cranial Extraction
3x Naturalize
3x Nezumi Shortfang
2x Kodama of the North Tree
2x Eradicate
1x Death Cloud
Again, I'll probably need to do some testing and get the sideboard just right, but I want to see how this version fares against the current field. The way it is set up, it can still deal with the some of the higher tier decks. I think running BG without Death Cloud, or at least some form of spot removal is a little silly and defeats the purpose of the color combination to some extent.
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If you've ever played against MUC then you would realize that to beat them you have to run them out of counters and be able to deal with meloku when it hits. You run the MUC player out of counters by making them counter every spell you play(which means you have to have more must-counter threats). This is the only way you will beat MUC. Maindecking Trolls and Slugs will help you a lot in the MUC matchup b/c they are must-counter spells, and you will be able to force death clouds/rude awakenings through if they counter all your creature threats.
As soon as I can get a good list of Saviors, I will begin testing to fit my deck into the meta-adjustment. I will post comprehensive analysis at that time.
The problem with "running more threats than they can counter" is this - MUC has superior card draw, and upwards of 14 counters (a safe minimum number). It is inevitable that we will run out of steam before they do unless you play smart. By loading up on "must counters," you have to be careful on what you select. While Slug is a must counter, he costs 5, making it difficult to cast safely until you hit 8 mana (you should NEVER play into a mana leak!!!). I think he can be used, but people need to understand that if you try and go spell for spell against MUC, you will lose. It seems better to me to try and force out multiple, albeit less potent, threats (i.e. Zealot, Shaman) in a single turn than it is to go with one larger threat (i.e. Molder Slug).
I think a good approach to this would be to compile a list of cards that really hurt MUC, and examine their weaknesses and strengths. Then maybe we can come to a consensus on how to shape the MD and SB. Here are some of my thoughts
Persecute -- This card essentially boils their hand and gives you an opportunity to lay down a threat safely. Ideally, you want to be casting this and a threat on the same turn.
Molder Slug -- Even if they shackles it, it won't help. It also can end the game right quick, taking out Stalking Stones and Magpie with ease.
Viridian Shaman -- Helps threaten MUC's board position by 2 for 1 on shackles or stalking stones or mox, and provides early "beats" that can be crucial in disrupting MUC's flow. Grinds to a halt against magpie or stones, and can be shackled.
Troll Ascetic -- I think Troll Ascetic is now a MD card for any green deck that knows it will be encountering MUC, or at least has good chances to. Deals with magpie, stones, and can't be shackled. Helpless against Meloku, though what non-trample creature isn't?
Viridian Zealot -- Slips right under MUC's turn 2 counter shield. Should never be shackled and clears out the shackles when needed, as well as providing early beats. Easily dealt with by magpie.
Kodama of the North Tree -- Tramples through any of MUC's defenses and cannot be shackled or boomeranged. Can be dangerous if Briberied, and cannot wield Jitte or other equipment. Also relatively expensive.
Nezumi Shortfang -- Slips under counter shield. Helps put some serious pressure on the hand of MUC, which is invaluable. Very easily shackled.
Humble Budoka -- Slips under counter shield and cannot be shackled. Provides early pressure, but succumbs to stones or magpie defenses.
There is a preliminary list, though I have neglected to mention artifacts yet. Feel free to add some of your own choices or bash some of mine.
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My fav list against that deck would contain
3 persecute
3-4 troll ascetic
4 birds
2 genju
1 KONT
and a couple of slugs or so to kill slugs
or some naturalize to kill shackles, mox or stones
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