the deck looks like it could be good but i think Nekrataal has a to big casting cost for what it does, you should run throatslitters instead becuase they can cost less, and they can also bring creatures back to your hand so you can get some good use out of eternal wittness with it
Here is my sugestion: Less swamps, more forrests and 3 beacon of creation. Due to your land acceleration abilitys, you shoudl be able to get large beacons, and this with a Rock on the board can spell game over for your opponents.
Yeah I proxied up a deck a while ago with the Rock, Beacon of Creations, and Gravepacts. It worked good when it worked, but something was missing. It probably could have really been good if I worked with it but ohh well. That would have cost more money.
I don't like how this deck has been created, I feel that there are far too many creatures, and not enough land in this deck, also, I think that there should be a considerable amount of discard. Here is what I'm thinking:
Green Critters:
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Eternal Witness
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
Black Critters:
4x Ravenous Rats
3x Nekrataal
Spells:
4x Dark Banishing
4x Night's Whisper
4x Distress
Lands:
13x Forest
12x Swamp
I'm wavering between Naturalize and Nekrataal, but the decision would be easy depending on the metagame that you are expecting, naturalize in a control heavy (read: Mono U metagame), vs Nekrataal in an aggro filled metagame.
vs. Control changes:
-1 Swamp
-4 Distress
-3 Nekrataal
+4 Wrench Mind
+4 Naturalize
Naturalize gives you more flexibility, and therefor lessens the need for Distress, which you can replace with the more card-advantageous Wrench Mind.
EDIT:
I'm actually thinking of the advantages of running Persecute over Nekrataal, mainly because of it's general bomby-ness against both aggro and control. In fact, I think that it definately should go in over Nekrataal.
I think you may be right here about the fatties. Sakura-Tribe Elder is nice and all, but when you already have birds for acceleration, there really doesn't seem to be a point. What do you guys think about adding Iwamori of Open Fist to the deck? With Distress in the deck, it really minimizes the chance that they can take advantage of his drawback. I actually think that persecute, in the new format is absolutely savage, especially with the ability to cast it on the third turn. Here is what I'm thinking right now:
Here is my current build for rock. It runs alot more accel, more creatures, and 1 really big bomb. It has 32 cards that produce 2-1 card advantage or better.
The deck you just listed rolls over and dies to probably ANY control deck in the current format. Enshrined Memories is also quite poor, even though most of your deck is made up of creatures, mainly because in order to draw 3 cards, you have to spend 4 mana, and it's at sorcery speed too AND you aren't guaranteed to draw any cards at all.
Ok, I am going to try out a more controllish version of B/G control(you might as well call it Anti-MUC -- 40% of the new metagame where I play) and see how it fares at FNM this week... here's my list:
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And you have just showed that you have zero experience with the deck. Its a good idea to be informed when you post. It helps to keep you from looking like a fool. I have played the deck and it does not roll over to any form of control as you say. I have played with Enshrined memories in several decks and it does generate large amounts of card advantage and wins games. Untill you have tried the deck please do not waste my time with your uninformed oppinion.
Don't you think it would be better to run Distress over Cohersion? Sorry, Coercion ?
Also, maybe utilizing more aggro type elements would be more effective against blue. I recall that aggro beats control in the greater scheme of things. Besides, isn't it better to end those matches early instead of always drawing?
Coersion is better it let you pick off lands even when you don't have anything else to pick which results good after a cloud cuz many people tend to keep their lands.
Other point is the mana requirement for distress even though you wanna play it on your second turn you may actually end up playing it on turn 3 or four anyway which by then you want to be playing something else.
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Enshrined Memories is underrated I think is one of the best draw spells for green at the moment since you don't lose the cards they go back to your library at worst.
I do find a lot of cards unnecesary but each one of you are entitle to youre opinion.
I've found that nekrataal is almost always a 2 for 1 and for a bonus can hold a Troll for quite a time. If see people that have play consume spirit to remove big creature and waste 6 or 7 mana and a Barter for a Meloku or an Arc-Slogger isn't Nekrataal a better choice?
MonoU and Ponza is heavy on my area and I've seen the power of a resolved persecute so it might be a nice addition.
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Enshrined Memories ? Sorry, but you forgot some tags and I can't remember what the hell that does. I do now.
I have a deck that I am very pleased with. It originally started as a MonoBlack build in the days of Onslaught/Mirrodin Block Standard scene. Here is that build:
That was the final version of it before the CoK rotation. It was wicked when it had Clamps. Anyway, that deck inspired the latest creation for the new Standard. Here is the new deck:
This deck is a lot of fun to play with and is capable of generating an absurd amount of card, board, and tempo advantage. A good friend who has helped me playtest this deck told me that it warps the game state in a very degenerate manner. I have previously posted this deck list and have been criticized for it being too janky. Oh well. Anyway, the deck is not easy to play correctly (especially since Death Cloud is an inexact science at best), although I am thoroughly confident in it's abilities and strength.
If you notice, there are 22 one and two drops. This usually enables a fairly quick start. The Nezumi Graverobber is the true "hero" here. His un-flipped ability can ruin a person who abuses Witness (and who doesn't, these days?) or other graveyard recursion. Additionally, when flipped, he supplies as much graveyard recursion as you could want (especially when he can rob your opponents).
Coupling that with a Witness or Solemn and a sac outlet (Pit, Plunge, & Harvester to an extent) spells big trouble for your opponent unless he or she already has the game won. Tack on a Grave Pact and you have creature removal stamped onto every one of your creatures.
Of course, never forget the Cloud. It is equally disruptive and therefore is effective only when properly timed. What I have learned about Cloud is that you want it to yield the most advantage for you along with the least advantage to your opp. If you both have 5 lands and 2 creatures, but your opp. has 3 cards and you only have 1, I would cloud for 3 if possible. If I have more lands, I try to take out all of my opp. lands. If I have Pact on board, I get 2 for 1's out of all my creatures.
What I have found the most surprising is that this deck is not dependent upon getting all of it's elements working in conjunction. There are many games where I do not draw a Pact or a Pit or the Robber for that matter. Amazingly enough, the deck still functions reasonably well.
I like all your deck with the exception of DC. I can't just get over that card. Is useless!!! Take out the Beacon of Unrest and the DCs and Put on 4 Kokus!!! BUT DO IT QUICK LIKE RIGHT NOW!!!!
AAAAaaaHHHHHHHH!!!! The point is that I used to play a deck like that and won most of the game by recurring my Kokus from the graveyard and it ruled \m/. Until MonoU eats the world.
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Thanks for the advice, but I think I'd rather have the Clouds than Kokusho in here. Afterall, the Harvester made the cut above Kokusho. Not that he's bad or anything. I just didn't like the way it ran with Kokusho. Besides, people get all squirmy when you drop a harvester and start swingin'. Now that's fun.
It usually doesn't matter how many lands they hold back when you cloud because they discard X also. Besides, this deck isn't weak against Boseiju or anything so the land part should not make a difference.
It does matter!!! A land in hand is one more card to be discarded and one less land destroyed. It seems to be the same but is a bit different that it seems and it all depends on who started and who's ramping more lands. Still I go with coersion.
Besides the most important point was my second one. Have you done the probabilities of playing that card on your second turn?
Harvester and Kokusho now there you got yourself a nice pack. You've said so yourself, DC is a "inexact science at best.", the same goes for Harvester but he is much more easier to handle and even better when solemn and kokus by your side and besides random ppl when they see ypy playing b/g will go for DC (cranial) and oops there's no cheezo here.
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I would say that the chances of me playing distress on turn 2 are better than coercion. I will go into detail if you'd like, but the end result is distress costs 2 and coercion costs 3. Honestly, I do not run either card in my deck. If you like the card, you should run it.
If you notice, I stated above that I am running Harvester instead of Kokusho. I auditioned Kokusho and found that I did not like him in the deck. He was way too clunky as a 4 of and to really abuse him, that is what it takes. Now don't get me wrong- Kokusho is a game-winner hands down. But through testing I determined that I preferred Harvester. Plus, with Big K's popularity, everyone sits there and waits on me to drop him and they let a whole bunch of other stuff sneak through in the meantime.
The rock does not exist in standard. With the exception of maybe two lists, none of these decks even comes close to resembling the rock. The rock was powerful for its ridiculous hand and board control (pernicious deed, treetop village, therapy, etc). Now you're posting a list that sports triskelion as its finisher? This thread should be moved to BG control.
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I like all your deck with the exception of DC. I can't just get over that card. Is useless!!!
DC is one of the few cards that even comes close to representing the rock. Don't tell me you'd try playing a version without deed because you really shouldn't be playing BG without the cloud. It is much more unwieldy than deed to be sure, but the massive control is offers is too great.
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For all intents and purposes, Coercion is more powerful. Distress, however, is better. Against a based control deck, the very ability to cast your disruption turn 2 far outwieghs their ability to save a land in hand. Otherwise, you're begging for a mana leak.
Ascetic: If you're looking to beat blue, try using Umezawa's Jitte with your troll. It's pretty much unstoppable. Also, genju would probably helpful, since it's nigh uncounterable and a turn 3 beater, which you can ride for quite some time. Only 3 witnesses? Four means more times they have to counter your spells. Definite up-count right there.
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"These aren't the droids you're looking for... and you owe me twenty bucks."
Jedi Mind Trix
A point was made about Boseiju and I have to agree with that point, at least with Coercion you can use Boseiju to make it uncounterable, wheras Distress you cannot (since there is no colorless in it's CC). Like it has been mentioned, Coercion also has less intense black mana costs, and distress often is (at least for me) played on turn three if I haven't drawn two black mana (which happens somewhat infrequently).
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4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
3 Viridian Shaman
Spells:
4 Kodama's Reach
3 Plow Under
3 Death Cloud
3 Rend Flesh
12 Forest
10 Swamp
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Hideous Laughter
3 Naturalize
4 Persecute
4 Echoing Decay
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Alters Blog.
Which character are you test by Naruto - Kun.com
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=3154
im...im.. in the springtime of youth- rock lee
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I like your idea.
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Rock
4 Birs of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Kodoma the North tree
3 Kokusho the Evening Star
1 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Death Cloud
3 Echoing Decay
4 Kodoma's Reach
3 Plow Under
3 Rend Flesh
2 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Swamp
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
11 Forest
4 Naturalize
2 Thunderstaff
2 Persecute
3 Dosan the Falling Leaf
3 Cranial Extraction
1 Boseiju who Shelters All
Rock
8 Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Okina, Temple of Grandfathers
11 Forest
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Molder Slug
1 Rude Awakening
1 Kodoma the North Tree
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kodoma's Reach
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Genju of the Cedars
3 Plow Under
2 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Death Cloud
3 Echoing Decay
4 Terror
4 Naturalize
3 Hideous Laughter
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Dosan the Falling Leaf
2 Rude Awakening
Here are some more top 8 builds from the recent regionals.
as you can see they are not simular to ours, but they are closer then some of the others.
But these are 2 succseful builds that have simular card choices.
here is my new list based off of the regionals to this point
3 Kokusho, the evening star
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of paradise
3 Death Cloud
4 Kodama's Reach
3 Plow Under
4 Terror
3 Echoing Decay
2 Genju of Cedars
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Rude Awakening
11 Forest
1 Okina, temple of grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's storehouse
4 Craninal Extraction
3 Dosan the Falling Leaf
3 Hideous Laughter
4 Naturalize
1 Rude Awakening
Here is what im going to try based off the lists above.
Green Critters:
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Eternal Witness
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
Black Critters:
4x Ravenous Rats
3x Nekrataal
Spells:
4x Dark Banishing
4x Night's Whisper
4x Distress
Lands:
13x Forest
12x Swamp
I'm wavering between Naturalize and Nekrataal, but the decision would be easy depending on the metagame that you are expecting, naturalize in a control heavy (read: Mono U metagame), vs Nekrataal in an aggro filled metagame.
vs. Control changes:
-1 Swamp
-4 Distress
-3 Nekrataal
+4 Wrench Mind
+4 Naturalize
Naturalize gives you more flexibility, and therefor lessens the need for Distress, which you can replace with the more card-advantageous Wrench Mind.
EDIT:
I'm actually thinking of the advantages of running Persecute over Nekrataal, mainly because of it's general bomby-ness against both aggro and control. In fact, I think that it definately should go in over Nekrataal.
-4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
-1 Forest
+3 Iwamori
+2 Phyrexian Plaguelord
For this decklist:
Green Critters:
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Eternal Witness
3x Iwamori of Open Fist
Black Critters:
4x Ravenous Rats
2x Phyrexian Plaguelord
Spells:
4x Dark Banishing/Terror (Does anyone know what is actually better to run right now?)
4x Night's Whisper
3x Persecute
4x Distress
Lands:
11x Forest
11x Swamp
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
Personally, I think that this list is pretty goddamn dope.
4 birds of paradise
4 sakura-tribe elder
4 vine trellis
4 ravenous rats
4 eternal witness
4 chittering rats
3 viridian shaman
2 nekrataal
3 solemn simulacrum
1 duplicant
3 triskelion
4 enshrined memories
2 city of brass
4 tendo ice bridge
9 forest
5 swamp
The enshrined memories wins so many games. It is not uncommon to draw 7 cards with it. Triskelion beat out plaguelord despite its higher CC.
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-tribe Elder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Troll Ascetic
Spells(20):
3 Death Cloud
3 Sylvan Scrying
3 Persecute
3 Terror(Or Rend Flesh)
4 Cohersion
4 Plow Under
10 Forest
9 Swamp
1 Okina, temple to the grandfathers
1 Shizo, death's storehouse
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters all
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Grim Reminder
3 Hideous Laughter
3 Naturalize
1 Persecute
1 Sylvan Scrying
Also, maybe utilizing more aggro type elements would be more effective against blue. I recall that aggro beats control in the greater scheme of things. Besides, isn't it better to end those matches early instead of always drawing?
Other point is the mana requirement for distress even though you wanna play it on your second turn you may actually end up playing it on turn 3 or four anyway which by then you want to be playing something else.
- Lack of common sense is like the common flu.
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I do find a lot of cards unnecesary but each one of you are entitle to youre opinion.
I've found that nekrataal is almost always a 2 for 1 and for a bonus can hold a Troll for quite a time. If see people that have play consume spirit to remove big creature and waste 6 or 7 mana and a Barter for a Meloku or an Arc-Slogger isn't Nekrataal a better choice?
MonoU and Ponza is heavy on my area and I've seen the power of a resolved persecute so it might be a nice addition.
- Lack of common sense is like the common flu.
Helping unknown people and getting flame by them.
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I have a deck that I am very pleased with. It originally started as a MonoBlack build in the days of Onslaught/Mirrodin Block Standard scene. Here is that build:
4 Rotlung Reanimator
2 Withered Wretch
3 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
2 Greater Harvester
3 Grave Pact
3 Spawning Pit
3 Oversold Cemetery
3 Plunge Into Darkness
3 Nights Whisper
2 Unholy Grotto
That was the final version of it before the CoK rotation. It was wicked when it had Clamps. Anyway, that deck inspired the latest creation for the new Standard. Here is the new deck:
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Nezumi Graverobber
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Greater Harvester
3 Grave Pact
3 Spawning Pit
3 Nights Whisper
2 Plunge Into Darkness
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Beacon of Creation
1 Beacon of Unrest
11 Forest
This deck is a lot of fun to play with and is capable of generating an absurd amount of card, board, and tempo advantage. A good friend who has helped me playtest this deck told me that it warps the game state in a very degenerate manner. I have previously posted this deck list and have been criticized for it being too janky. Oh well. Anyway, the deck is not easy to play correctly (especially since Death Cloud is an inexact science at best), although I am thoroughly confident in it's abilities and strength.
If you notice, there are 22 one and two drops. This usually enables a fairly quick start. The Nezumi Graverobber is the true "hero" here. His un-flipped ability can ruin a person who abuses Witness (and who doesn't, these days?) or other graveyard recursion. Additionally, when flipped, he supplies as much graveyard recursion as you could want (especially when he can rob your opponents).
Coupling that with a Witness or Solemn and a sac outlet (Pit, Plunge, & Harvester to an extent) spells big trouble for your opponent unless he or she already has the game won. Tack on a Grave Pact and you have creature removal stamped onto every one of your creatures.
Of course, never forget the Cloud. It is equally disruptive and therefore is effective only when properly timed. What I have learned about Cloud is that you want it to yield the most advantage for you along with the least advantage to your opp. If you both have 5 lands and 2 creatures, but your opp. has 3 cards and you only have 1, I would cloud for 3 if possible. If I have more lands, I try to take out all of my opp. lands. If I have Pact on board, I get 2 for 1's out of all my creatures.
What I have found the most surprising is that this deck is not dependent upon getting all of it's elements working in conjunction. There are many games where I do not draw a Pact or a Pit or the Robber for that matter. Amazingly enough, the deck still functions reasonably well.
AAAAaaaHHHHHHHH!!!! The point is that I used to play a deck like that and won most of the game by recurring my Kokus from the graveyard and it ruled \m/. Until MonoU eats the world.
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Helping unknown people and getting flame by them.
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Besides the most important point was my second one. Have you done the probabilities of playing that card on your second turn?
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Helping unknown people and getting flame by them.
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DC is one of the few cards that even comes close to representing the rock. Don't tell me you'd try playing a version without deed because you really shouldn't be playing BG without the cloud. It is much more unwieldy than deed to be sure, but the massive control is offers is too great.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for... and you owe me twenty bucks."
Jedi Mind Trix
Ascetic: If you're looking to beat blue, try using Umezawa's Jitte with your troll. It's pretty much unstoppable. Also, genju would probably helpful, since it's nigh uncounterable and a turn 3 beater, which you can ride for quite some time. Only 3 witnesses? Four means more times they have to counter your spells. Definite up-count right there.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for... and you owe me twenty bucks."
Jedi Mind Trix