Yes! This is the deck I have been trying to play/build since BFZ came out. Why are more people not discussing this build? I feel like standard is missing a solid mid-range deck and this has all the tools. There's just something about a turn 4 Siege Rhino into a turn 5 Goblin Dar-Dwellers, cast Crackling Doom that really gets me excited and reminiscent of Bloodbraid Elf into Terminate from the old days of Jund.
Here is my current decklist:
I do have some concerns with the deck. With it being 4-colors, I wonder if its being a little greedy. I know mana fixing is so good in standard right now, but has anyone had a problem with mana screw that much?
This is the Jund deck of this format for certain. I've actually only caught glimpses of this deck in action, but it won the PPTQ I attended last weekend. I can imagine trying to outgrind this deck will be super difficult.
I'm not really high on Ob Nixilis in this. It's not like you lack 1) spot removal or 2) card advantage. I'd rather just play a 4th Dark Dweller since it's a much more efficient card that will yield similar amounts of value, but without the lifeloss added. Casting a an Abzan Charm or a C. Doom should get whatever you want to kill killed.
@Tiemuuu - I am beginning to agree with your comment about Ob. Lately whenever I have drawn him, he's just sat in my hand. I was thinking about trying to add 2-3 Sylvan Advocate. Any thoughts on if that might be the right move? And if so, what to take out for him?
I do have some concerns with the deck. With it being 4-colors, I wonder if its being a little greedy. I know mana fixing is so good in standard right now, but has anyone had a problem with mana screw that much?
The only issue that I've had up to this point is that I often won't have a second white or a second green to cast a second spell on a turn sequence in the mid-to-late-game, i.e. a Crackling Doom and an Abzan Charm or a Siege Rhino and an Abzan Charm. I've also found several games that go long, I'll end up with fetches and nothing to search. I think 25 or 26 lands is right, but I certainly don't think the mana is necessarily 'right' yet.
This is the Jund deck of this format for certain. I've actually only caught glimpses of this deck in action, but it won the PPTQ I attended last weekend. I can imagine trying to outgrind this deck will be super difficult.
I'm not really high on Ob Nixilis in this. It's not like you lack 1) spot removal or 2) card advantage. I'd rather just play a 4th Dark Dweller since it's a much more efficient card that will yield similar amounts of value, but without the lifeloss added. Casting a an Abzan Charm or a C. Doom should get whatever you want to kill killed.
For me, this has been a deck which can swing a game very quickly. I've been down to no board, 3 life and end up winning 3 turns later with 2 Siege Rhino, a Soulfire Grand Master, and a Goblin Dark-Dwellers in play at 12-15 life. In a lot of situations, you have 2-4 cards which can dig you out. From that point of view, I can see where Ob Nixilis Reignited might seem misplaced since you really do already have answers. I intend to test him, though, simply because he is so efficient at what he does. I should say he's on the list of what I want to tinker with... I just picked up Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet to try and am going to add a 1-of Chandra, Flamecaller to see if games will end a little quicker.
@Tiemuuu - I am beginning to agree with your comment about Ob. Lately whenever I have drawn him, he's just sat in my hand. I was thinking about trying to add 2-3 Sylvan Advocate. Any thoughts on if that might be the right move? And if so, what to take out for him?
I'm not sold on Sylvan Advocate. What match-ups do you think he'd help with? Would Den Protector work for you? I've actually won a couple games flipping him in a Goblin Dark-Dwellers into an Abzan Charm for 2 counters creating an unblockable 5/4 Den Protector. He definitely makes for some interesting interactions, but I think Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet might be better to give some better Game 1s.
It's a carry-over from before OGW to slow/stop 4C Rally. I have a feeling it will start to dry up as Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet seems to be viewed as a much better card vs Rally and others.
It's a carry-over from before OGW to slow/stop 4C Rally. I have a feeling it will start to dry up as Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet seems to be viewed as a much better card vs Rally and others.
That's what I'm thinking. A 3/4 lifelinker that makes 2/2s when our deck is just full of removal seems way better than a 4/4. It might be worthwhile to run both against Rally because of Reflector Mage, though.
That's what I'm thinking. A 3/4 lifelinker that makes 2/2s when our deck is just full of removal seems way better than a 4/4. It might be worthwhile to run both against Rally because of Reflector Mage, though.
Reflector Mage is tough and I think that's what Infinite Obliteration goes after first now. I haven't played enough to know if that's right all the time, though.
That's what I'm thinking. A 3/4 lifelinker that makes 2/2s when our deck is just full of removal seems way better than a 4/4. It might be worthwhile to run both against Rally because of Reflector Mage, though.
Reflector Mage is tough and I think that's what Infinite Obliteration goes after first now. I haven't played enough to know if that's right all the time, though.
I really don't like Infinite Obliteration against rally. That deck is hardly crippled by losing any one spell, and on the contrary it can punish your durdliness with aggressive draws and it can also punish you for 0-for-1'ing yourself. You don't beat Reflector Mage by casting Infite Obliteration, you beat RM through being tempo-efficient. I know that RM can look real nasty in conjunction with CC and Rally, but really the problem here is CC and Rally themselves. There's been a ton of articles on how to beat 4c rally and it's been an a priori argument that infinite obliteration is not part of your hate package any longer.
If you're afraid of your Kalitas getting bounced, you can always take a more controlling approach to the game and wait until you have enough mana to cast Kalitas AND fire off a removal spell or two and keep mana up for a Hallowed Moonlight
EDIT: this format could use a Hushwing Gryff. Perhaps SOI will deliver?
I really don't like Infinite Obliteration against rally. That deck is hardly crippled by losing any one spell, and on the contrary it can punish your durdliness with aggressive draws and it can also punish you for 0-for-1'ing yourself. You don't beat Reflector Mage by casting Infite Obliteration, you beat RM through being tempo-efficient. I know that RM can look real nasty in conjunction with CC and Rally, but really the problem here is CC and Rally themselves. There's been a ton of articles on how to beat 4c rally and it's been an a priori argument that infinite obliteration is not part of your hate package any longer.
If you're afraid of your Kalitas getting bounced, you can always take a more controlling approach to the game and wait until you have enough mana to cast Kalitas AND fire off a removal spell or two and keep mana up for a Hallowed Moonlight
EDIT: this format could use a Hushwing Gryff. Perhaps SOI will deliver?
I'll be honest, I've heard this argument before and read a lot of articles (maybe some of the same)which make that claim, too. It's usually written by Rally players so I take it with a little grain of salt. Infinite Obliteration can be quite good against them. It can also be too late even early in the game. I think Infinite Obliteration got a boost with OGW additions making it a decent sideboard card in this deck vs a number of decks. Post-board (of course), it enables Turn 3 - Infinite Obliteration X, Turn 4 - Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet or Siege Rhino, Turn 5 - Goblin Dark-Dwellers + Infinite Obliteration Y. That's a very strong sequence against several decks - not just Rally. It's, of course, not going to happen every time, but we have enough support removal/hate that I think it's still worth the slots.
I'm still not happy with the mana. A lot of games, you go first but turn over a turn waiting for a land to untap or you are forced to go for the 'wrong' basic land to maintain tempo or answer a threat. I do wonder if the next set will help or hurt these wild mana bases...
Chandra, Flamecaller is the real deal. I almost forgot about her additional abilities since it's so easy just to swing for 6 (though the greedy part of me wishes they were hasty, trampling elementals). She also cleans up the fetch problem I described previously. Now I just hold 1 or 2 after I get to a 'working' mana base and she cycles them for me and gives me a bonus for doing it... [The ability also plays quite well with Goblin Dark-Dwellers.]
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is also very good. I'm not 100% on it's main deck inclusion yet as it doesn't quite have the synergy that another card may have, but I'm going to keep tinkering. Has anyone else tried?
Really quick, if you guys would oblige me, can we discuss Duress over Transgress the Mind. I feel like the latter is better over all main deck with Duress being a better sideboard card.
Really quick, if you guys would oblige me, can we discuss Duress over Transgress the Mind. I feel like the latter is better over all main deck with Duress being a better sideboard card.
Am I wrong? Can you guys convince me?
You can make an argument either way, so I'd go with what you are comfortable playing. It's a slow format, so Transgress the Mind will hit all the important spells (except for Jace). Duress is easier to cast (you can still get it off if the odd land has to enter tapped on turn 2) and with a lot of decklists featuring only 12-15 creatures (obviously not aggro lists), Duress hits a pretty high percentage of cards for B.
I tend to think Transgress is better when you know if you need it making it ideal sideboard material. I would probably not put Duress in the side, but that is just me.
I've had a ton of success with the deck. Pulse of Murasa has been awesome in the side. I've been playing one main as well. It's fun to "buyback" a Dark Dweller and grab another Dark Dweller/Rhino while gaining 6 life each time. Also Chandra is such a good curve topper in this deck, she helps you catch back up or break parody.
I've had a ton of success with the deck. Pulse of Murasa has been awesome in the side. I've been playing one main as well. It's fun to "buyback" a Dark Dweller and grab another Dark Dweller/Rhino while gaining 6 life each time. Also Chandra is such a good curve topper in this deck, she helps you catch back up or break parody.
Could you post your decklist, I can see where Pulse is good. Just not where it would fit in?
Round one: Rally(2-0)
round two Bant company (2-0)
round 3 Jeskai aggro
round 4 jeskai black
round 5 br dragons
top 8 is both players i lost to but in reverse order
r1t8 jeskai black 2-0
r2t8 jeskai AGGRO 2-1
finals vs Kevin "daddy" jones 2-1
Im interested in thinkering howto beat it, i feel other than Ramp decks, no deck has positive matchup vs it, even dedicated decks to beat it that arent ramp decks, just cant handle it. can you help me to beat this deck?
Kalitas is the real deal in this deck. Can close out games fast and obviously the built in exile is super good. I finished 3-1 tonight with a tweaked version of the above (some sideboard cards main and vice versa). I beat BR eldrazi aggro, beat a ""mirror" match (he was running mardu green, but with eldrazi displacer), lost to abzan aggro and beat 4-color rally. Gideon can be a difficult card to answer, hence the 2x Ruinous Path in the sideboard. Other than that, the deck felt super good and I enjoyed playing it. My meta is getting pretty midrangy, so that is why the K. Command is in the board and not maindeck. It just doesn't pull it's weight for a 3 mana spell in those types of match-ups.
EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
Game 2 - Opening hand I had a transgress the mind which netted collected company, and towards end of game, I drew a ruinous path to remove Jace. Otherwise I never drew any of the other SB hate, and rally ended up doing what rally does best. The 2 games went the full time allotment and he ended up beating me as the game went to "turns" after time expired.
Match 2: vs. Eldrazi something or other - a ramp deck. 1-1 DRAW
Game 1: Flawless game, had removal answers, t4 rhino followed up by dashed kolaghan, the storm fury took the first game
Game 2: I played sloppy. Im not even sure which Eldrazi it was. Not one of the more commonly played ones that I have seen, but I didnt pay it enough attention, which led to me making a very poor attacking decesion, and a game that I should have easily won, I handed to him and took the lost.
Game 3: First 2 games took maybe 15 minutes in total. This game we got into a sort of stale mate, and we ended up going to time. We took our 5 turns, I was left at 32 life, he was at 1 life - AGAIN - Im not sure what, but no doubt I could have done something better in that game to chip off that 1 last life point from him.
Match 3: v2 a B/u thopter sort of brew. Won 2-0
Match 4: vs Abzan 1-0-1 (Win)
Game 1:Very enjoyable match where we both played some magic. Was pretty grindy game, my deck had endless amount of answers and better more consistent answers and grinded him down in game 1.
Game 2: More of the same: we went to time, and game ended with him me at 7 life and he was at 2 life. Since I had won game 1, I earned the Match win.
Thoughts:
Den Protector is in the Main Deck in many deck lists for this deck. 1 or 2 copies. I have not put in hundreds of hours with this deck, but when I have played it, he was always just ended up being a dead card in hand. So I have moved him to the SB. Despite that - I think this is one of those times when I am going to have faith in the 'masses' and probably move 1 back to Main Deck. I am admittedly a below average magic player, and a horrible side boarder (:-) ) reflecting back, he would have been helpful in the rally match up possibly if nothing else, and it did not even occur to me to SB him in as well.
transgress the mind I really liked all night. I'M not sure what match up it is not useful in - and in the current meta I question if it would be a better main deck inclusion over duress. After the tournament I played against atarka red deck, and even then was still able to yank [reckless bushwhacker[/card]. Although albeit, I would have SB in duress in following games if I would have had them SB. But, right now so many big nasty creatures, planeswalkers, and high casting spells are being played it just seems transgress the mind is seldom a bad draw.
chandra, flamecaller I loved. I would consider playing 2 of, as I really want to draw her every game if Im still alive when I can cast her.
kolaghan, the storm's fury I like in the deck. Playing him, this big bad flying threat makes me wish to either include more so I can draw him more often - would have been great to have drawn one against rally - or if possibly including [wingmate roc[/card] is out of the question. I feel this deck is so tight right now as it is, one of the only areas it could improve grindy and as a result, game time takes longer. Perhaps some flying options may assist in finishing off our opponents more quickly?
goblin dark-dwellers everyone knows by now but just one quick comment about him. Like all other magic cards, there are people who love GDD and people who think its over rated. I eyed the card since it was spoiled and have played him in a variety of decks already. It occurs to me that for those who think he is over hyped - its is possibly because they have not played him in a proper deck designed to exploit his abilities. In a deck like this, he is just so good and I can not imagine how anyone would think otherwise.
crackling doom I only own 3 copies which is why I didn't play 4. I highly recommend playing 4. abzan charm was a bit lack luster for me, and every time I drew it, I pretty much wished I had drawn another crackling doom.
roast - I have to say, I like playing roast in the main deck and I get a lot of the talk about how its not 'good magic' to use roast to kill a 1 drop creature, etc, etc and the draw back of not being able to hit fliers, and it being a sorcery. But even in this deck which has so many removal spells, when I have a roast in hand, there are still so few threats that can remain on the board. I would not mind trying to run a 3/3 split between fiery impulse and roast, or possibly even a 2/4 split in favor of roast. No removal spell is perfect in all situations, but it sure seems roast can handle more than its fair share, and when it comes down to I need to get a creature of the battle field for whatever reason - I do not care as much if I am using the most efficient removal spell - I just care about removing that threat.
Please use Decktags, not Cardtags, for decklists. They're super easy to use. Read all about them here. -- Lugger
I got mowed over by this deck last night. I'm not sure it has the legs for aggro MUs simply because it seems like if it ever misses a land drop it just loses.
That said, beating recurring Crackling Dooms is a problem-o for a lot of decks.
Kalitas is the real deal in this deck. Can close out games fast and obviously the built in exile is super good. I finished 3-1 tonight with a tweaked version of the above (some sideboard cards main and vice versa). I beat BR eldrazi aggro, beat a ""mirror" match (he was running mardu green, but with eldrazi displacer), lost to abzan aggro and beat 4-color rally. Gideon can be a difficult card to answer, hence the 2x Ruinous Path in the sideboard. Other than that, the deck felt super good and I enjoyed playing it. My meta is getting pretty midrangy, so that is why the K. Command is in the board and not maindeck. It just doesn't pull it's weight for a 3 mana spell in those types of match-ups.
Cool report! Glad to see you did well. A couple of questions... How did you like so many Den Protector? I was running 2 before I added Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and liked them, but I prefer to run Soulfire Grand Master as I find the lifelink matters in a couple of the aggro match-ups. And, I'm also interested in why you think Kolaghan's Command doesn't pull it's weight against mid-range? I initially hated the card (and its price) and didn't understand why it was considered so good, but after playing for a couple weeks with it, I want it every single game and recur it almost as much as Crackling Doom. I use it a lot of times on my opponent's draw step to have them discard and return a creature and find that as good a mode as any against mid-range. It also allows me to be a little more aggressive with my blocking and attacking knowing I can recur my 4/5 (or whoever) and they won't be bringing anyone back... Do you know how he fit the Eldrazi Displacer into the deck? I kept mine from tinkering with some Eldrazi builds, but like this deck more. Displacer is just nasty when you have the mana to play with it and I find Mardu Green has lots of mana to use late...
Game 2 - Opening hand I had a transgress the mind which netted collected company, and towards end of game, I drew a ruinous path to remove Jace. Otherwise I never drew any of the other SB hate, and rally ended up doing what rally does best. The 2 games went the full time allotment and he ended up beating me as the game went to "turns" after time expired.
Match 2: vs. Eldrazi something or other - a ramp deck. 1-1 DRAW
Game 1: Flawless game, had removal answers, t4 rhino followed up by dashed kolaghan, the storm fury took the first game
Game 2: I played sloppy. Im not even sure which Eldrazi it was. Not one of the more commonly played ones that I have seen, but I didnt pay it enough attention, which led to me making a very poor attacking decesion, and a game that I should have easily won, I handed to him and took the lost.
Game 3: First 2 games took maybe 15 minutes in total. This game we got into a sort of stale mate, and we ended up going to time. We took our 5 turns, I was left at 32 life, he was at 1 life - AGAIN - Im not sure what, but no doubt I could have done something better in that game to chip off that 1 last life point from him.
Match 3: v2 a B/u thopter sort of brew. Won 2-0
Match 4: vs Abzan 1-0-1 (Win)
Game 1:Very enjoyable match where we both played some magic. Was pretty grindy game, my deck had endless amount of answers and better more consistent answers and grinded him down in game 1.
Game 2: More of the same: we went to time, and game ended with him me at 7 life and he was at 2 life. Since I had won game 1, I earned the Match win.
Thoughts:
Den Protector is in the Main Deck in many deck lists for this deck. 1 or 2 copies. I have not put in hundreds of hours with this deck, but when I have played it, he was always just ended up being a dead card in hand. So I have moved him to the SB. Despite that - I think this is one of those times when I am going to have faith in the 'masses' and probably move 1 back to Main Deck. I am admittedly a below average magic player, and a horrible side boarder (:-) ) reflecting back, he would have been helpful in the rally match up possibly if nothing else, and it did not even occur to me to SB him in as well.
transgress the mind I really liked all night. I'M not sure what match up it is not useful in - and in the current meta I question if it would be a better main deck inclusion over duress. After the tournament I played against atarka red deck, and even then was still able to yank [reckless bushwhacker[/card]. Although albeit, I would have SB in duress in following games if I would have had them SB. But, right now so many big nasty creatures, planeswalkers, and high casting spells are being played it just seems transgress the mind is seldom a bad draw.
chandra, flamecaller I loved. I would consider playing 2 of, as I really want to draw her every game if Im still alive when I can cast her.
kolaghan, the storm's fury I like in the deck. Playing him, this big bad flying threat makes me wish to either include more so I can draw him more often - would have been great to have drawn one against rally - or if possibly including [wingmate roc[/card] is out of the question. I feel this deck is so tight right now as it is, one of the only areas it could improve grindy and as a result, game time takes longer. Perhaps some flying options may assist in finishing off our opponents more quickly?
goblin dark-dwellers everyone knows by now but just one quick comment about him. Like all other magic cards, there are people who love GDD and people who think its over rated. I eyed the card since it was spoiled and have played him in a variety of decks already. It occurs to me that for those who think he is over hyped - its is possibly because they have not played him in a proper deck designed to exploit his abilities. In a deck like this, he is just so good and I can not imagine how anyone would think otherwise.
crackling doom I only own 3 copies which is why I didn't play 4. I highly recommend playing 4. abzan charm was a bit lack luster for me, and every time I drew it, I pretty much wished I had drawn another crackling doom.
roast - I have to say, I like playing roast in the main deck and I get a lot of the talk about how its not 'good magic' to use roast to kill a 1 drop creature, etc, etc and the draw back of not being able to hit fliers, and it being a sorcery. But even in this deck which has so many removal spells, when I have a roast in hand, there are still so few threats that can remain on the board. I would not mind trying to run a 3/3 split between fiery impulse and roast, or possibly even a 2/4 split in favor of roast. No removal spell is perfect in all situations, but it sure seems roast can handle more than its fair share, and when it comes down to I need to get a creature of the battle field for whatever reason - I do not care as much if I am using the most efficient removal spell - I just care about removing that threat.
Great report! I too moved Den Protector to the side as he always felt very slow. He was always useful, but he just always seem to be a 'wait-til-next-turn-to-cast' card. I don't know if I'm missing something, but I feel the maindeck can be build without him. As far as Abzan Charm seeming lackluster, how often are you using it as card draw or pump? When I first added it to my deck, it was as 'removal' which Goblin Dark-Dwellers could recur. After playing it more, I would say I use it as removal ~60%, card draw ~35%, and pump ~5%. A fun trick is to pump a Shambling Vent. I also agree with you on Roast as well - every time I look to take something out I look at that slot, but there's just something about a turn 4 where you drop a Soulfire Grand Master and then Roast a fatty to reset the board that makes it entirely worth keeping.
I got mowed over by this deck last night. I'm not sure it has the legs for aggro MUs simply because it seems like if it ever misses a land drop it just loses.
That said, beating recurring Crackling Dooms is a problem-o for a lot of decks.
It depends on the land... I find I can miss 1-2 land drops without being completely out of it, but color-screw is a whole different ball-game. I'm constantly looking for ways to make the mana more consistent without adding lands. I'd love a new City of Brass, but feel that a new Wasteland is probably what's coming...
Just went 0-3 with this deck at Game Day, losing to mono-red Goblins, Atarka Red and Devoid aggro. I kinda drew like crap but nonetheless quick aggro decks with lots of tokens are an issue.
Fred Bear - So far the need to use Abzan CHarm as a card draw or as a pump, just has not been needed in situations where I have had it in hand. Granted I am just picking up this deck and admit I have and bow to those deck lists put together by others who have alot more time playing it and knowing it inside and out.
Systematicpro - You say you are just switching over to this deck, from playing a jeskai. Have you played this deck yet, running the Soulfires? I ask that sincerely as I think if you have it really becomes evident at just how good the Soulfires are in this deck. Im only running 3 in my list because I only have 3. I would rather play 4 myself. But perhaps they shine more in the meta i am often playing in, and in yours making the cut to 2 would work best?
I am not sure how to explain how CHandra fits in, she is just a really good threat that is strong in every way. If the game is still going when I can put her into play, and with this deck I am finding the games often go long, she finishes them rather quickly.
I also agree that Zulaport is a preferred selection when playing against rally.
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Mardu Green looks to play all the 2-for-1s. All of them.
Here are some lists:
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
4 Soulfire Grand Master
Lands (26)
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
2 Nomad Outpost
3 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Abzan Charm
4 Crackling Doom
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
2 Duress
2 Read the Bones
2 Roast
1 Virulent Plague
1 Utter End
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Dark Petition
3 Infinite Obliteration
1 Painful Truths
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
3 Soulfire Grand Master
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
Lands (26)
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
2 Nomad Outpost
3 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Abzan Charm
4 Crackling Doom
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
2 Duress
1 Read the Bones
2 Roast
1 Ruinous Path
1 Virulent Plague
3 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Utter End
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Duress
2 Radiant Flames
2 Transgress the Mind
The deck aims to be the premier mid-range deck of the format. Discuss below.
Here is my current decklist:
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
3 Soulfire Grand Master
Planeswalkers - 3
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Spells - 21
4 Crackling Doom
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Fiery Impulse
3 Abzan Charm
2 Read the Bones
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Roast
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
2 Nomad Outpost
3 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Duress
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Virulent Plague
1 Utter End
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Ruinous Path
I do have some concerns with the deck. With it being 4-colors, I wonder if its being a little greedy. I know mana fixing is so good in standard right now, but has anyone had a problem with mana screw that much?
I'm not really high on Ob Nixilis in this. It's not like you lack 1) spot removal or 2) card advantage. I'd rather just play a 4th Dark Dweller since it's a much more efficient card that will yield similar amounts of value, but without the lifeloss added. Casting a an Abzan Charm or a C. Doom should get whatever you want to kill killed.
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3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
3 Soulfire Grand Master
2 Abzan Charm
4 Crackling Doom
3 Duress
4 Fiery Impulse
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Murderous Cut
3 Painful Truths
1 Read the Bones
2 Roast
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Nomad Outpost
1 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Radiant Flames
2 Ruinous Path
1 Utter End
1 Virulent Plague
The only issue that I've had up to this point is that I often won't have a second white or a second green to cast a second spell on a turn sequence in the mid-to-late-game, i.e. a Crackling Doom and an Abzan Charm or a Siege Rhino and an Abzan Charm. I've also found several games that go long, I'll end up with fetches and nothing to search. I think 25 or 26 lands is right, but I certainly don't think the mana is necessarily 'right' yet.
For me, this has been a deck which can swing a game very quickly. I've been down to no board, 3 life and end up winning 3 turns later with 2 Siege Rhino, a Soulfire Grand Master, and a Goblin Dark-Dwellers in play at 12-15 life. In a lot of situations, you have 2-4 cards which can dig you out. From that point of view, I can see where Ob Nixilis Reignited might seem misplaced since you really do already have answers. I intend to test him, though, simply because he is so efficient at what he does. I should say he's on the list of what I want to tinker with... I just picked up Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet to try and am going to add a 1-of Chandra, Flamecaller to see if games will end a little quicker.
I'm not sold on Sylvan Advocate. What match-ups do you think he'd help with? Would Den Protector work for you? I've actually won a couple games flipping him in a Goblin Dark-Dwellers into an Abzan Charm for 2 counters creating an unblockable 5/4 Den Protector. He definitely makes for some interesting interactions, but I think Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet might be better to give some better Game 1s.
It's a 4/4 vs. Atarka Red and a hoser vs. Rally. Probably also fine vs. rando control decks.
It's a carry-over from before OGW to slow/stop 4C Rally. I have a feeling it will start to dry up as Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet seems to be viewed as a much better card vs Rally and others.
That's what I'm thinking. A 3/4 lifelinker that makes 2/2s when our deck is just full of removal seems way better than a 4/4. It might be worthwhile to run both against Rally because of Reflector Mage, though.
Reflector Mage is tough and I think that's what Infinite Obliteration goes after first now. I haven't played enough to know if that's right all the time, though.
I really don't like Infinite Obliteration against rally. That deck is hardly crippled by losing any one spell, and on the contrary it can punish your durdliness with aggressive draws and it can also punish you for 0-for-1'ing yourself. You don't beat Reflector Mage by casting Infite Obliteration, you beat RM through being tempo-efficient. I know that RM can look real nasty in conjunction with CC and Rally, but really the problem here is CC and Rally themselves. There's been a ton of articles on how to beat 4c rally and it's been an a priori argument that infinite obliteration is not part of your hate package any longer.
If you're afraid of your Kalitas getting bounced, you can always take a more controlling approach to the game and wait until you have enough mana to cast Kalitas AND fire off a removal spell or two and keep mana up for a Hallowed Moonlight
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I'll be honest, I've heard this argument before and read a lot of articles (maybe some of the same)which make that claim, too. It's usually written by Rally players so I take it with a little grain of salt. Infinite Obliteration can be quite good against them. It can also be too late even early in the game. I think Infinite Obliteration got a boost with OGW additions making it a decent sideboard card in this deck vs a number of decks. Post-board (of course), it enables Turn 3 - Infinite Obliteration X, Turn 4 - Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet or Siege Rhino, Turn 5 - Goblin Dark-Dwellers + Infinite Obliteration Y. That's a very strong sequence against several decks - not just Rally. It's, of course, not going to happen every time, but we have enough support removal/hate that I think it's still worth the slots.
I played around with this list last night...
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
3 Soulfire Grand Master
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Abzan Charm
4 Crackling Doom
3 Duress
4 Fiery Impulse
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Painful Truths
1 Read the Bones
2 Roast
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Nomad Outpost
1 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Murderous Cut
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Radiant Flames
1 Utter End
1 Virulent Plague
I'm still not happy with the mana. A lot of games, you go first but turn over a turn waiting for a land to untap or you are forced to go for the 'wrong' basic land to maintain tempo or answer a threat. I do wonder if the next set will help or hurt these wild mana bases...
Chandra, Flamecaller is the real deal. I almost forgot about her additional abilities since it's so easy just to swing for 6 (though the greedy part of me wishes they were hasty, trampling elementals). She also cleans up the fetch problem I described previously. Now I just hold 1 or 2 after I get to a 'working' mana base and she cycles them for me and gives me a bonus for doing it... [The ability also plays quite well with Goblin Dark-Dwellers.]
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is also very good. I'm not 100% on it's main deck inclusion yet as it doesn't quite have the synergy that another card may have, but I'm going to keep tinkering. Has anyone else tried?
Am I wrong? Can you guys convince me?
You can make an argument either way, so I'd go with what you are comfortable playing. It's a slow format, so Transgress the Mind will hit all the important spells (except for Jace). Duress is easier to cast (you can still get it off if the odd land has to enter tapped on turn 2) and with a lot of decklists featuring only 12-15 creatures (obviously not aggro lists), Duress hits a pretty high percentage of cards for B.
I tend to think Transgress is better when you know if you need it making it ideal sideboard material. I would probably not put Duress in the side, but that is just me.
Could you post your decklist, I can see where Pulse is good. Just not where it would fit in?
Mardu Green by Ali Aintrazi
Main Deck
Sideboard
1 Den Protector
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
4 Soulfire Grand Master
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Abzan Charm
4 Crackling Doom
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Murderous Cut
2 Pulse of Murasa
2 Read the Bones
2 Roast
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Nomad Outpost
1 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Dark Petition
1 Den Protector
1 Duress
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Painful Truths
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Virulent Plague
1 Infinite Oblitertion
Round one: Rally(2-0)
round two Bant company (2-0)
round 3 Jeskai aggro
round 4 jeskai black
round 5 br dragons
top 8 is both players i lost to but in reverse order
r1t8 jeskai black 2-0
r2t8 jeskai AGGRO 2-1
finals vs Kevin "daddy" jones 2-1
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Siege Rhino
4 Den Protector
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Abzan Charm
4 Crackling Doom
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
2 Read the Bones
2 Roast
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Nomad Outpost
1 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Duress
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Languish
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Ruinous Path
2 Transgress the Mind
Kalitas is the real deal in this deck. Can close out games fast and obviously the built in exile is super good. I finished 3-1 tonight with a tweaked version of the above (some sideboard cards main and vice versa). I beat BR eldrazi aggro, beat a ""mirror" match (he was running mardu green, but with eldrazi displacer), lost to abzan aggro and beat 4-color rally. Gideon can be a difficult card to answer, hence the 2x Ruinous Path in the sideboard. Other than that, the deck felt super good and I enjoyed playing it. My meta is getting pretty midrangy, so that is why the K. Command is in the board and not maindeck. It just doesn't pull it's weight for a 3 mana spell in those types of match-ups.
I ran this list at FNM.
creatures: 12
soulfire grand master x3
siege rhino x4
goblin dark-dwellers x4
kolaghan, the storm's fury x1
Planeswalker: 1
chandra, flamecaller x1
sorceries and instants: 21
duress x1
pulse of murasa x2
kolaghan's command x2
crackling doom x3
abzan charm x2
fiery impulse x4
roast x2
read the bones x3
murderous cut x2
Soup: 26
bloodstained mire x4
windswept heath x4
wooded foothills x4
cinder glade x1
smoldering marsh x2
canopy vista x2
shambling vent x2
nomad outpost x2
plains x1
mountain x1
swamp x2
forest x1
Side Board: 15
kalitas, traitor of ghet x2
anafenza, the foremost x3
den protector x2
transgress the mind x4
kozilek's return x1
infinite obliteration x1
ruinous path x2
So went 2-1-1 with this deck at FNM which was disappointing - but still inexperienced with the deck, and got some learning mileage out of the evening.
Match 1 vs 4 color Rally 0-2
Game 1: So this game against our stores "best player". Game actually went well, and he went off a turn or maybe 2 before I would have gotten him most likely.
I side boarded in anafenza, the foremost x3, kalitas, the traitor of ghet x2 and transgress the mind x4, and ruinous path x1 Took out fiery impulse x4, roast x2, pulse of murasa x2, kolaghan's command x2.
Game 2 - Opening hand I had a transgress the mind which netted collected company, and towards end of game, I drew a ruinous path to remove Jace. Otherwise I never drew any of the other SB hate, and rally ended up doing what rally does best. The 2 games went the full time allotment and he ended up beating me as the game went to "turns" after time expired.
Match 2: vs. Eldrazi something or other - a ramp deck. 1-1 DRAW
Game 1: Flawless game, had removal answers, t4 rhino followed up by dashed kolaghan, the storm fury took the first game
Game 2: I played sloppy. Im not even sure which Eldrazi it was. Not one of the more commonly played ones that I have seen, but I didnt pay it enough attention, which led to me making a very poor attacking decesion, and a game that I should have easily won, I handed to him and took the lost.
Game 3: First 2 games took maybe 15 minutes in total. This game we got into a sort of stale mate, and we ended up going to time. We took our 5 turns, I was left at 32 life, he was at 1 life - AGAIN - Im not sure what, but no doubt I could have done something better in that game to chip off that 1 last life point from him.
Match 3: v2 a B/u thopter sort of brew. Won 2-0
Match 4: vs Abzan 1-0-1 (Win)
Game 1:Very enjoyable match where we both played some magic. Was pretty grindy game, my deck had endless amount of answers and better more consistent answers and grinded him down in game 1.
Game 2: More of the same: we went to time, and game ended with him me at 7 life and he was at 2 life. Since I had won game 1, I earned the Match win.
Thoughts:
Den Protector is in the Main Deck in many deck lists for this deck. 1 or 2 copies. I have not put in hundreds of hours with this deck, but when I have played it, he was always just ended up being a dead card in hand. So I have moved him to the SB. Despite that - I think this is one of those times when I am going to have faith in the 'masses' and probably move 1 back to Main Deck. I am admittedly a below average magic player, and a horrible side boarder (:-) ) reflecting back, he would have been helpful in the rally match up possibly if nothing else, and it did not even occur to me to SB him in as well.
transgress the mind I really liked all night. I'M not sure what match up it is not useful in - and in the current meta I question if it would be a better main deck inclusion over duress. After the tournament I played against atarka red deck, and even then was still able to yank [reckless bushwhacker[/card]. Although albeit, I would have SB in duress in following games if I would have had them SB. But, right now so many big nasty creatures, planeswalkers, and high casting spells are being played it just seems transgress the mind is seldom a bad draw.
chandra, flamecaller I loved. I would consider playing 2 of, as I really want to draw her every game if Im still alive when I can cast her.
kolaghan, the storm's fury I like in the deck. Playing him, this big bad flying threat makes me wish to either include more so I can draw him more often - would have been great to have drawn one against rally - or if possibly including [wingmate roc[/card] is out of the question. I feel this deck is so tight right now as it is, one of the only areas it could improve grindy and as a result, game time takes longer. Perhaps some flying options may assist in finishing off our opponents more quickly?
goblin dark-dwellers everyone knows by now but just one quick comment about him. Like all other magic cards, there are people who love GDD and people who think its over rated. I eyed the card since it was spoiled and have played him in a variety of decks already. It occurs to me that for those who think he is over hyped - its is possibly because they have not played him in a proper deck designed to exploit his abilities. In a deck like this, he is just so good and I can not imagine how anyone would think otherwise.
crackling doom I only own 3 copies which is why I didn't play 4. I highly recommend playing 4. abzan charm was a bit lack luster for me, and every time I drew it, I pretty much wished I had drawn another crackling doom.
roast - I have to say, I like playing roast in the main deck and I get a lot of the talk about how its not 'good magic' to use roast to kill a 1 drop creature, etc, etc and the draw back of not being able to hit fliers, and it being a sorcery. But even in this deck which has so many removal spells, when I have a roast in hand, there are still so few threats that can remain on the board. I would not mind trying to run a 3/3 split between fiery impulse and roast, or possibly even a 2/4 split in favor of roast. No removal spell is perfect in all situations, but it sure seems roast can handle more than its fair share, and when it comes down to I need to get a creature of the battle field for whatever reason - I do not care as much if I am using the most efficient removal spell - I just care about removing that threat.
Please use Decktags, not Cardtags, for decklists. They're super easy to use. Read all about them here. -- Lugger
That said, beating recurring Crackling Dooms is a problem-o for a lot of decks.
Cool report! Glad to see you did well. A couple of questions... How did you like so many Den Protector? I was running 2 before I added Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and liked them, but I prefer to run Soulfire Grand Master as I find the lifelink matters in a couple of the aggro match-ups. And, I'm also interested in why you think Kolaghan's Command doesn't pull it's weight against mid-range? I initially hated the card (and its price) and didn't understand why it was considered so good, but after playing for a couple weeks with it, I want it every single game and recur it almost as much as Crackling Doom. I use it a lot of times on my opponent's draw step to have them discard and return a creature and find that as good a mode as any against mid-range. It also allows me to be a little more aggressive with my blocking and attacking knowing I can recur my 4/5 (or whoever) and they won't be bringing anyone back... Do you know how he fit the Eldrazi Displacer into the deck? I kept mine from tinkering with some Eldrazi builds, but like this deck more. Displacer is just nasty when you have the mana to play with it and I find Mardu Green has lots of mana to use late...
Great report! I too moved Den Protector to the side as he always felt very slow. He was always useful, but he just always seem to be a 'wait-til-next-turn-to-cast' card. I don't know if I'm missing something, but I feel the maindeck can be build without him. As far as Abzan Charm seeming lackluster, how often are you using it as card draw or pump? When I first added it to my deck, it was as 'removal' which Goblin Dark-Dwellers could recur. After playing it more, I would say I use it as removal ~60%, card draw ~35%, and pump ~5%. A fun trick is to pump a Shambling Vent. I also agree with you on Roast as well - every time I look to take something out I look at that slot, but there's just something about a turn 4 where you drop a Soulfire Grand Master and then Roast a fatty to reset the board that makes it entirely worth keeping.
It depends on the land... I find I can miss 1-2 land drops without being completely out of it, but color-screw is a whole different ball-game. I'm constantly looking for ways to make the mana more consistent without adding lands. I'd love a new City of Brass, but feel that a new Wasteland is probably what's coming...
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/standard-mardu-green-23962#paper
this is the list I'm running atm
Few questions i have
is 3x soulfire really needed?
Where does chandra fit in here?
I'm thinking of cutting down to 2 soulfires and putting in a chandra or kalitas
also on the infinite obliteration vs rally topic, why wouldn't you name zulaport cutthroat?
most of the times i've ever lost to rally it's because they were able to rally 2 or 3 cutthroats with a bunch of junk
maybe name the husk instead?
but imo reflector mage isn't what you would want to name in this matchup
Systematicpro - You say you are just switching over to this deck, from playing a jeskai. Have you played this deck yet, running the Soulfires? I ask that sincerely as I think if you have it really becomes evident at just how good the Soulfires are in this deck. Im only running 3 in my list because I only have 3. I would rather play 4 myself. But perhaps they shine more in the meta i am often playing in, and in yours making the cut to 2 would work best?
I am not sure how to explain how CHandra fits in, she is just a really good threat that is strong in every way. If the game is still going when I can put her into play, and with this deck I am finding the games often go long, she finishes them rather quickly.
I also agree that Zulaport is a preferred selection when playing against rally.