Samurai does almost nothing against U/G. it only removes permanents, not instants or sorceries so all those counters can still be regrown. I would not run this deck without witness. In fact, without witness, I probably wouldn't even bother running green.
ok first off where is yosei? he flies, he's 5/5 and he locksdown when he dies. what more could you want? i dont think that Azusa has any point to the deck. just take her out and add kodama's reach. Twilight Guardian isnt really that good imo. 8.5 tails should go in here for more control. also Candle's glow is plain bad. i'd run Split-Tail Miko instead. if you want the gain life effect run either Pulse or Beacon of Immortality. iwamori is ok but watch what you play against. if its b/g you better side those out cause of kokusho. like you said your only problem is card gaining.
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Currently Playing:
Ponza
:symu::symg: Control
In Contstruction:
:symr::symb: Powerhouse
Uhm... would you please show some sign of work on your part in the way of testing and whatnot so we can at least pretend to believe that this is a competitive T2 deck?
I'm not going to report this, because it looks interesting (although I'm sure anything that's made for standard and plays oxidize can interest me), but please give us some kind of test results or 'what your deck intends to do' kind of thing.
To BigD: There is already a thread for G/W control in this forum. If you are interested in finding out what works well, look there for some info. As for the build you posted, It most definitely belongs in the casual forum. You had absolutely no Affinihate and there were some rather subpar selections as well. I have found through much testing that this deck was suboptimal against the overall meta. It does have game against Affinitah if you run the basic green prescription for Affinihate (4 Oxi, 3-4 Shaman). I ran a splash of black (for cranial extraction) vs. TNN and also had plow under mainboard for that as well. The deck performs well against tooth and you can usually beat them without too much hassle. Against the other Green based control decks, this is where the deck starts to show it's deficiencies. This deck basically rolls to U/G as well as MUC as the control they pack supercedes your control. You have a better chance against B/G, but it is still in their favor as they have Kokusho (who outranks Yosei) and death cloud. As far as the matchup against red, LD can be painful but is survivable. Aggro is slightly tense if you aren't holding wrath but it is very winnable as well, especially if you are running Pulse.
First thing you are going to think is that this belongs in the casual forum, but please here me out. I initially built this as kind of a joke/casual deck, but noticied something. It did not lose much even against competitive decks. So i tweaked it and made it more serious. If nothing else it is an interesting approach to GW control and should be considered with some level of potential.
It's only bad matchup seems to be affinity. Worse players I've let test the deck seem incapable of beating it, but when played by better more experienced players it seems to win 40%ish of the time.
Of course Affinitah will be your worst matchup because you did not build your deck to the meta. This deck should basically have at least 6 hate spells to deal with Affinitah in the mainboard. Then, you should have additional hate in the sideboard. Also, why do you need 4x Beacon and 4x Rude Awakening? Beacon gets shuffled back in and you really don't need to see Rude in your opening hand. I also notice that you are running only 4 plains. You have 6 spells that require double white in the cost and 15 white spells total. I realize that you run a disparate amount of Forests to get the most out of Beacon, but you are going to run into serious mana issues as a result. You also have too much land search abilities that are taking up slots that would be better utilized for disrupting your opp. game. Finally, when you make the statement that the only bad matchup is Affinitah, this leads me to believe that you have not tested this against any other G/x control decks. If you had done so, you would realize that G/w is strictly inferior to G/u and G/b. If you would more info on what is competitive in this deck, I would suggest that you read as much of this thread as possible. There is much knowledge here.
I have tested against g/x control and MUC and have positive matchups against both. the 4 beacon and 4 rude awakening you questioned alows you to play through blue based controls counters. Blue based control generally runs only 8-12 counter spells these days and 4-8 of them are "counter unless you pay..." my 4 rude, 4 beacon, 4 witness, 2 yosei means i have 14 win conditions beating them in counters. In short I am going with the "THe best defense is a good offense" and made the deck a bit more aggressive and run creature control rather than the traditional disruption.
G/B is a bit trickier to pay against than B/x but most of the same agruments apply plus the sacred grounds and ghostly prisons in the side eliminate my two biggest worries from the deck, echoing decay and their rudes.
My last agrument comes back to where you stated you stated I need at least 6 peices of affinity hate. I dont know if you count wrath but I do, if you don't pls explain why, thats 4/6. Then there is the 9 pacifism effects, although not as good as straight artifact removal it shines a little more against other decks, and seems to me that it should count as at least the other 2 peices of hate.
Just in case you haven't you should try building the deck on apprentice or something. It looks a lot better in action than it does on paper.
If you still feel my deck is stupid and ineffective I sencerily appologize. I'm Just trying new things.
If you still feel my deck is stupid and ineffective I sencerily appologize. I'm Just trying new things.
I don't think your deck is stupid. I just think that some of the card selections could be better. I don't necessarily consider wrath to be Affinihate because it is a sorcery and it costs 4 with double white. Looking at your build, getting double white active on turn 4 would most likely be difficult at best given that you have only 4 plains. To make it work, it means you need a STE on turn 2 followed by a reach on turn 3. Most likely, if the Affinitah player goes first, they will win on their 4th turn about 1/3 of the time. This means that they beat you before you can even cast wrath on a somewhat regular basis. If you accentuate that with oxi's and shamans, now you carry the possibility of turn 1 blow up their land, turn 2 elder as a chumper and turn 3 blow up something else.
The reason Affinitah is so explosive is the artifact lands. They provide a 2 for 1 deal with frogs, enforcers, and hoverguards. They also feed Ravager, Atog and increase the potency of Cranial Plating. As is common knowledge, Affinitah runs usually 20 lands, which is a relatively low land count. Among these are approx. 4-6 non-artifact lands (Glimmervoid, Nexus). Having played Affinitah myself, I know that the worst thing a person can do is start blowing up my lands. If you can blow up the 1st land that is played by Affinitah, you will slow it down by at least 1 turn. This could prevent them from being able to drop a frog, or cast one of the few colored spells they have, or prevent them from playing and equipping Plating on the same turn.
Now, against MUC and G/u, they will soon be running Quash, which absolutely wrecks Rude and Beacon. I would never run more than 3 Rude as you only want this card when it is time to win. By wasting your early turns with only acceleration and mana building, they can build a whole fistful of answers for your Rude's and Beacons. Then, when it comes time to win the game, you will spend several turns just trying to get your win to resolve. This plays you right into their hands. By the time you have Rude and are ready to go off, they will more than likely have Meloku or counters to deal with it. As for Beacon, they have Echoing Truth and Meloku. On a side note, if they are G/u, when you drop Rude and they counter or survive with tokens and whatnot, they can usually Rude you out the next turn. As for Yosei, they have Keiga, Meloku, and Vedalken Shackles that can all easily deal with Yosei.
With that said, you are the one who ultimately builds your deck. It is entirely of your choosing and I encourage you to run what you think is necessary. If your deck works for you and you are satisfied, that is great. I did not have the same experience with my G/w. If you read back a few pages, you will see that I have given up on it almost entirely as I continually struggled against G/u and MUC in testing.
Well, perhaps G/W will have a better game against them if Ravager hits the dust (the deck that is), since we'll be able to play with an actual sideboard (x4 Sylvan Scrying + Boseiju anyone?), which can drastically improve the game. It's impossible to tell right now, but maybe going off for the time being and trying to play as though there were NO affinity would be a plan.
gw has no chance at actual t2 if raffinity goes down its the weakest combination of green control decks it dies to tooth and black (unless karma hits early). if ravager dies gw control will die as well since it has no good win contitions: yosei and rude awakenig are not enough to compete with titan, kokusho, etc. As i look at the future metagame any control deck will stop using green. why would they? if ravager is gone oxidize and shaman are useless. if white returs to the control scene it will have to be in combination with other non-green color black would do discard and direct removal or even red
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In my opinion, green white will have more of a shot after the bannings then less. It means that all this ravager hate can actually be directed at the matchups it dislikes, making it more of a contender. I wouldn't complain about Yosei and Rude Awakening as win conditions, as they have both won me plenty of games already. Yosei is still a rival to Kokusho, and Rude Awakening is still used often.
However, I must agree that I'm sure there are many other choices of win conditions available.
if Raffinity goes bye bye, then G/w control can lose all the afinihate cards (or atleast sideboard some of it) and start playing with other cards. hopefully standard will be more fun and diverse when ravager is neutered.
Or non-existant... It will also become less speed oriented, and can hopefully play more the role of an actual control deck. I'm not familiar with current lists, but Final Judgment looks like a good choice for this deck, as combined with the acceleration and the use of Kokusho and indestructibles (namely Colossus) it may be an excellent addition, as it can also cure the problem of witnessing back those dead nasties.
yes gw will free whole lot of anti affinity spaces post bannings, but white nd green are not the best control colors, they will die to discard and counters, besides white has nothing good to offer wrath wont be that good since we will lack of a good aggro based deck, and final judgment against collosus and kokusho Nah! if playing black they´ll first make you discard all your hand and then peacefully kill you with kokusho/cloud. Also white and green lack drawing and thats an important factor in control matchups
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1st round: I slaughtered B/G, 2-0. It would've been a lot closer had the guy not been so inexperienced, though, I do believe. He really underestimated Karma, I think - I didn't see a Naturalize either game.
G/w still has troubles dealing with Tooth and Nail. I recently switched over to U/G control and I found it much more enjoyable to play. Now that affinity is dead though, a lot of the MD arfifact hate can be removed and/or sideboarded. I know U/G runs bloodmoon in the side + plow unders against tooth. From my own experiences, Cranial Extraction does nothing to stop T&N, only slow it down a few turns. Final Judgment and Splinter make good options against colassus. My old G/w deck wanted to have Karma in the board, but because of ravager/tooth, it had no slots. Cards like Dosan, Boseiju and maybe even MD sylvan scrying against control can be options (G/w just hates MUC and U/G). I'm really excited about the changes to standard and hope to see G/w comeback. But, I'm really liking U/G much more.
3 Choke
3 Karma
4 Ghostly Prision
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Isao, enligthet Bushi
What do you have All Sun's Dawn in ther for? These should most likely be Plow Unders or something like that. Also, what defense do you have against Tooth? I see your Extractions, but that only takes out Tooth. They are able to hardcast most of their creatures so if you take out tooth, it merely slows them down.
I would recommend more creatures in your build. You can use Pristine Angel, Troll Ascetic, etc. in these slots. I would sideboard the Extractions and not play a swamp the first game if you can avoid it. Then your extraction comes in game 2 and is a surprise thorn in side.
With all your blue woes, you might be better off splashing red for Boil.
Here's a deck I've been working on pre bannings. Tested it before JSS and it performed well vs. ravager (that white genju really helps your life after a wrath). I have since altered in post-bannings.
4 birds of paradise
4 sakura
3 eternal witness
3 solemn simulacrum
3 yosei
3 genju of the cedars
3 kodama's reach
4 wrath of god
3 plow under
2 rude awakening
2 final judgement
2 shining shoal
2 tranquil garden
1 okina
1 eiganjo
11 forest
9 plains
Currently working on a sideboard:
3 choke/boseju
3 sacred ground
3 ivory mask
3 terashi's grasp/naturalize
1 final judgement
1 plow under
Winner of the SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Jul 26-28, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
credit to dementia blader
Currently Playing:
Ponza
:symu::symg: Control
In Contstruction:
:symr::symb: Powerhouse
Affinity and T&N matchups
Ponza: Aff: W-6 L-5 T&N: W-17 L-21
UG Control: Aff: W-8 L-0(still unbeaten!) T&N: W-5 L-3 T-1
:symw::symu: Merfolk
Definitely not an aggro player.
I'm not going to report this, because it looks interesting (although I'm sure anything that's made for standard and plays oxidize can interest me), but please give us some kind of test results or 'what your deck intends to do' kind of thing.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
2 Yosei, The morning star
Spells
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Pacifism
3 Arrest
3 Cage of Hands
4 Wrath of God
4 Beacon of Creation
4 Rude Awakening
19 Forest
4 Plains
Side
4 Oxidize
2 Naturalize
3 Duplicant
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Sacred Ground
It's only bad matchup seems to be affinity. Worse players I've let test the deck seem incapable of beating it, but when played by better more experienced players it seems to win 40%ish of the time.
________________________
G/B is a bit trickier to pay against than B/x but most of the same agruments apply plus the sacred grounds and ghostly prisons in the side eliminate my two biggest worries from the deck, echoing decay and their rudes.
My last agrument comes back to where you stated you stated I need at least 6 peices of affinity hate. I dont know if you count wrath but I do, if you don't pls explain why, thats 4/6. Then there is the 9 pacifism effects, although not as good as straight artifact removal it shines a little more against other decks, and seems to me that it should count as at least the other 2 peices of hate.
Just in case you haven't you should try building the deck on apprentice or something. It looks a lot better in action than it does on paper.
If you still feel my deck is stupid and ineffective I sencerily appologize. I'm Just trying new things.
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MEGAMATT
I don't think your deck is stupid. I just think that some of the card selections could be better. I don't necessarily consider wrath to be Affinihate because it is a sorcery and it costs 4 with double white. Looking at your build, getting double white active on turn 4 would most likely be difficult at best given that you have only 4 plains. To make it work, it means you need a STE on turn 2 followed by a reach on turn 3. Most likely, if the Affinitah player goes first, they will win on their 4th turn about 1/3 of the time. This means that they beat you before you can even cast wrath on a somewhat regular basis. If you accentuate that with oxi's and shamans, now you carry the possibility of turn 1 blow up their land, turn 2 elder as a chumper and turn 3 blow up something else.
The reason Affinitah is so explosive is the artifact lands. They provide a 2 for 1 deal with frogs, enforcers, and hoverguards. They also feed Ravager, Atog and increase the potency of Cranial Plating. As is common knowledge, Affinitah runs usually 20 lands, which is a relatively low land count. Among these are approx. 4-6 non-artifact lands (Glimmervoid, Nexus). Having played Affinitah myself, I know that the worst thing a person can do is start blowing up my lands. If you can blow up the 1st land that is played by Affinitah, you will slow it down by at least 1 turn. This could prevent them from being able to drop a frog, or cast one of the few colored spells they have, or prevent them from playing and equipping Plating on the same turn.
Now, against MUC and G/u, they will soon be running Quash, which absolutely wrecks Rude and Beacon. I would never run more than 3 Rude as you only want this card when it is time to win. By wasting your early turns with only acceleration and mana building, they can build a whole fistful of answers for your Rude's and Beacons. Then, when it comes time to win the game, you will spend several turns just trying to get your win to resolve. This plays you right into their hands. By the time you have Rude and are ready to go off, they will more than likely have Meloku or counters to deal with it. As for Beacon, they have Echoing Truth and Meloku. On a side note, if they are G/u, when you drop Rude and they counter or survive with tokens and whatnot, they can usually Rude you out the next turn. As for Yosei, they have Keiga, Meloku, and Vedalken Shackles that can all easily deal with Yosei.
With that said, you are the one who ultimately builds your deck. It is entirely of your choosing and I encourage you to run what you think is necessary. If your deck works for you and you are satisfied, that is great. I did not have the same experience with my G/w. If you read back a few pages, you will see that I have given up on it almost entirely as I continually struggled against G/u and MUC in testing.
Leche de cabra, azucar, glucosa, carbonato.
(no contiene colorantes ni saborizantes artificiales).
:spirit2:
However, I must agree that I'm sure there are many other choices of win conditions available.
Leche de cabra, azucar, glucosa, carbonato.
(no contiene colorantes ni saborizantes artificiales).
:spirit2:
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Otherwordly Journey
3 Pulse of the Fields
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Eternal Witness
4 Wrath of God
2 Plow Under
3 Rude Awakening
3 Final Judgment
4 Yosei, the Morning Star
10 Plains
13 Forest
2 Sylvan Scrying
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Plow Under
3 Karma
4 Purge
1st round: I slaughtered B/G, 2-0. It would've been a lot closer had the guy not been so inexperienced, though, I do believe. He really underestimated Karma, I think - I didn't see a Naturalize either game.
2nd round: I got slaughtered by TnN, 0-2. Sundering Titan/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker = game over, I lose.
3nd round: I beat WW with very little problem, 2-0. A well-timed Wrath (especially when followed up with a Plow Under) totally wrecked the guy's deck.
I played R/W a few games afterwards, and went 3-2 against it. And one of the games I lost was because I somehow drew five lands in a row. :/
I'm glad I didn't have to play against Affinity tonight.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
As far as Prison, I never had much luck utilizing it myself so I would not run it but it can be good.
4 Plow is a bit much as is 4 reaches. You could do better with a few more creatures in the build maybe.
4 Wrath of God
2 Final Judgment
4 Eternal Witness
4 Otherworldly Journey
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Rude Awakening
4 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 All Sun's Dawn
1 Swamp
Forest
Plains
okina
Eingajo
Sb:
3 Choke
3 Karma
4 Ghostly Prision
3 Circle of Protection Red
2 Isao, enligthet Bushi
What do you have All Sun's Dawn in ther for? These should most likely be Plow Unders or something like that. Also, what defense do you have against Tooth? I see your Extractions, but that only takes out Tooth. They are able to hardcast most of their creatures so if you take out tooth, it merely slows them down.
I would recommend more creatures in your build. You can use Pristine Angel, Troll Ascetic, etc. in these slots. I would sideboard the Extractions and not play a swamp the first game if you can avoid it. Then your extraction comes in game 2 and is a surprise thorn in side.
With all your blue woes, you might be better off splashing red for Boil.
Im not a huge fan of the black splash for cranial extraction, I would probably go with 1 mountain and blood moon for that matchup.
troll ascetic/worship is good against any deck not running black and might be worth looking at md.
jens is really worth running, reach and elder are more than sufficient.
Anon - control RGW
4 birds of paradise
4 sakura
3 eternal witness
3 solemn simulacrum
3 yosei
3 genju of the cedars
3 kodama's reach
4 wrath of god
3 plow under
2 rude awakening
2 final judgement
2 shining shoal
2 tranquil garden
1 okina
1 eiganjo
11 forest
9 plains
Currently working on a sideboard:
3 choke/boseju
3 sacred ground
3 ivory mask
3 terashi's grasp/naturalize
1 final judgement
1 plow under
So folks, please provide criticism galore.
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Eiganjo Castle
8 Plains
11 Forest
Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
4 Wrath of God
4 Rampant Growth
4 Plow Under
3 Otherworldly Journey
3 Genju of the Fields
3 Final Judgment
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Genju of the Cedars
3 Reciprocate
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Naturalize
3 Choke
3 Karma
Reciprocate helps against Darksteel Colossus.
Let me know what you guys think.
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
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the one genju of the cedars is kind of pointless I think I would just rather go with the fourth genju of the fields.
Anon - control RGW