This thread is for the cards from Betrayers of Kamigawa that are playable in the current T2 environment. I play Ponza in T2 and have been thinking of several cards from BoK that I could use, like Frostling and First Volley. Are there any other cards from BoK that could make an impact on the T2 scene?
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Final Judgement will probably find it's way into white control decks at least as a 2 of. Terashi's Grasp is now the new white disenchant, so it might be used in white decks.
Goblin Cohort and Frostling are going into my Sligh deck. Flames of the Blood Hand's definately Ponza worthy, I'm boarding it in my Sligh. Plus everyone's talking about ninjas.
I don't see God's Eve in there for any reason, and if any ninja is playable, I doubt it'll be Higure, unless Ravager is errataed to be a ninja (since all he does is tutor ninjas). I believe a cheap blue ninja will be viable though, as a mechagnism for returning Witless in u/g tooth. Other than that, eh.
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I don't see God's Eve in there for any reason, and if any ninja is playable, I doubt it'll be Higure, unless Ravager is errataed to be a ninja (since all he does is tutor ninjas). I believe a cheap blue ninja will be viable though, as a mechagnism for returning Witless in u/g tooth. Other than that, eh.
What is U/G tooth? As far as I know, there is no such thing. Hmm, let's think about Higure for a second. Tutors ninjas, you say? Is that all? Well, let's not play a reusable tutor effect. No, reusable tutors are horrible.
Not to mention he also offers an evasion ability for your creatures so he is not just a tutor. C'mon guy, think before you type please. If you read the ninjas, you see that you have disruption, creature removal, card draw, tutor & evasion, and they all walk talk and beat down your opp at the same time. And that is just four of the ninjas. I am sure that it will be a good deck in due time.
I would not be surprised seeing Sowing Salt make it into some sideboards, if not mainboarded. It's a good way to slow down Tooth and Affinity (not the greatest, but mana removal's always good). I think Iwamori may see play in mono-green Tooth. Ninja will probably become a new archetype deck. Bile Urchin and possibly Eradicate will be seen in MBC as well as B/G Deathcloud....
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Sowing Salt would destroy Tooth pretty good, but I doubt people would go out of their way to SB a card that is only effective vs one deck, a deck that many now consider to be extinct.
I think Lifespinner may make it into a spirit-combo deck with Kokushoes and Goryo's Vengeance. Oh, and Loam Dweller too, in that deck.
Once Ravager rotates, I could see Ninjas, Spiritcraft and Mono black aggro rising up to fill the void.
Sowing Salt would destroy Tooth pretty good, but I doubt people would go out of their way to SB a card that is only effective vs one deck, a deck that many now consider to be extinct.
Why do you doubt that anyone goes out of their way to sideboard a card that is only good against one deck?
I always thought that is what a sideboard was for. Yes, I know you want cards in there that are good against multiple decks, but that is usually not the result.
How about Karma? It probably would be good against black but inneffective against anything not black. Pretty narrow, huh?
What about Oxidize? Its really only good against Affinitah, but hell, some people even mainboard the suckers.
And trust me. Tooth is not dead. I play against tooth all the time.
Tooth isn't dead, but what he is saying is that now there are 3 more answers to Tooth. Quash means no more toothing the rest of the game. Sowing salt one of the Urza Lands or Cloudpost(does anyone still run these), will remove all those from the game. Eradicate Collossus is about the only way to get rid of that guy. And Extracting all the tooths before they are played is the other option.
So no, Tooth is not dead, but do I dare say Neutered.
What is U/G tooth? As far as I know, there is no such thing. Hmm, let's think about Higure for a second. Tutors ninjas, you say? Is that all? Well, let's not play a reusable tutor effect. No, reusable tutors are horrible.
Higure is only good in U/X Ninjas, and since said deck doesn't exist, I'd say Higure isn't that good. He's generally going to juat be a shuffle effect in a playable deck. If you run 1 ninja, then you'll tutor that 1 ninja, and that's it.
EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, Tooth isn't dead. It's just one foot in the grave.
I think someones gonna try to break hokori/orb of dreams. I mean, it might not be a competitive deck, but it seeems like it might have a chance. Kismet and winter orb in teh SAME SET people. with icy manipulator still in T2??? hm.....
Higure's effect is so powerful that i think it will see play, and Umezawa's Jitte will see play for the same reason. Iwamori of the Open Fist is good beats, and Blademane Baku, the Genjus, Goblin Cohort, and Frostling are also good beats. Orb of Dreams and Hokori look cool. All the shoals look interesting. Goryo's Vengeance seems like a pretty powerful spell to me.
personally i think we'll see alot out of the Lifespinner/Shirei combo. it's pretty yummy and has the potential to be a tooth n nail replacement. works a hell of alot quicker with Loam Dweller in the mix.
Sowing Salt will see the SB. Eradicate will go main deck in MBC and Cloud. Sickening Shoal will also see play in MBC. Shining Shoal in MWC along with Final Judgement. Horobi's Whisper will definately see play in all decks that run black as it is not only the best black common in the set maybe the best common period. Goblin Cohort might be able to sneak its way into Ponza but nothing else. The Green, Red, and White Genjus will aslo see some play. And there is of course the U/B Ninja deck running around.
Yes. Genju of the Falls will definately have 2-3 slots in there as another manland for turn one.
I can't really see that happening. In MUAggro, maybe. MUC, we don't want to tap out first turn to make the Genju if we're running Annul, and if not the two-mana activation (It's two, right? Something that I'm disregarding tells me 3) will seriously neuter our countering power until much later in the game than would normally be appropriate. Yes, you could play it and not activate it, but then it's a dead card. And frankly, I wouldn't be all that happy if I got a Genju in my opening hand under those circumstances. Waste of a card.
That said, with no Ravager (or no MD5 at all), I can definitely see it. Then the value of maindeck Annuls will be limited at best (Plus, the Annuls themselves will rotate out), the one-drop slot will no longer be filled, and Genjus will be nice.
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Tarmogoyf has no evasion, yet it sees tonnes of play. What makes this any different?
Leaving out some of the really obvious explanations:
Eradicate - finally, MBC has enough spells against Tooth
Final Judgment
Flames of the Blood Hand - Mono Red is going to be pretty good
Frostling - duh
Genju of the ________ - there are quite a few which are noteable
Hokori
Horobi's Whisper
Kami of False Hope
Some of the Glass Kite Creatures will be played in a Blue Skies type deck
Matsu-Tribe Sniper
Ninja of Deep Hours
Quash
Shining Shoal - probably the best white card in years
Sickening Shoal
Sosuke's Summons
Sowing Salt
Umezawa's Jitte - removal for decks that normally wouldn't have it? Mono Green Beacon for example
I think someones gonna try to break hokori/orb of dreams. I mean, it might not be a competitive deck, but it seeems like it might have a chance. Kismet and winter orb in teh SAME SET people. with icy manipulator still in T2??? hm.....
It's Called SB for WW, I know my sideboard will have atleast 2 of each in it. And as to contrsucted worthy cards... Jitte. I'm guessing we're all kinda assuming it will be, but I've been testing em out in white weenie... It doen't lose to ravager anymore... Ever. I think Isao may find a home in a couple of decks, as he is an all around solid creature that only gets better when you throw a couple samurai into the mix (G/W Aggro maybe?). Both Shirei and Lifespinner look to be abuseable for good combos, but I'm not sold on them together. I think that pretty much all the shoals, minus the green, will see constructed play, even the blue, at worst it's a hard counter.
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Sowing Salt will see the SB. Eradicate will go main deck in MBC and Cloud. Sickening Shoal will also see play in MBC. Shining Shoal in MWC along with Final Judgement. Horobi's Whisper will definately see play in all decks that run black as it is not only the best black common in the set maybe the best common period. Goblin Cohort might be able to sneak its way into Ponza but nothing else. The Green, Red, and White Genjus will aslo see some play. And there is of course the U/B Ninja deck running around.
From what our playtest group have seen so far, the Black Shoal will not make the cut.
As for Horobi's Whisper...Just no. It is not even close to the "best common period." It is an O.K removal, but things like Rend Flesh and Decay are superior. In MBC there are hardly no Arcan to splice into it, so that makes it pretty much a 3cc non-black killer.
I think Ponza got something awesome in Crack the Erath, btw.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
So far, Mistblade Shinobi and Ninja of the Deep Hours have proven to be successful additions to a UG deck I'm playing... I have won games against Affinity and T&N using the deck, although I'm sure it's not teir 1 or anything like that...
Anyway, those are the only cards I can really say have any good within them right now based on actual playtesting.
Am I the only one who likes Neko-Te? I can see it being used with something like Kumano, Master Yamabushi to ping n' permatap the opponent's creatures.
Theres so much hate that keeping Neko-Te out would be a feat in itself. Kentaro, the Smiling Cat should also be VERY playable with the updated list of Samurai (not that anymore were absolutely necessary). Makes that new Green Samurai splashable. I see using it and 3 City of Brass in a weenie deck to get out Brothers Yamazaki and other red samurai.
In MBC there are hardly no Arcan to splice into it, so that makes it pretty much a 3cc non-black killer.
Cranial Extraction
Hideous Laughter
Horobi's Whisper
Rend Flesh
Sickening Shoal
If someone so desired, they realistically could use the Horobi's Whisper - considering that Hideous Laughter is gaining popularity again in MBC because of the popularity of the Mono Green decks, and the soon popularity of the WW decks, Rend Flesh has been used in many lists as well, and Cranial Extraction is approaching $20 - so I don't think I need to explain that one.
We are already discussing the usage of Horobi's Whisper, so that one can also count, and I don't see any reason why Sickening Shoal can't be used (although I do not believe it is realistically a 4x, I think it can be a 2x). It's still not the best shoal, so who knows.
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Err... Nevermind. I think that Frostling will definately see play. Maybe Traproot Kami, or Kami of False Hope in WW.
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What is U/G tooth? As far as I know, there is no such thing. Hmm, let's think about Higure for a second. Tutors ninjas, you say? Is that all? Well, let's not play a reusable tutor effect. No, reusable tutors are horrible.
Not to mention he also offers an evasion ability for your creatures so he is not just a tutor. C'mon guy, think before you type please. If you read the ninjas, you see that you have disruption, creature removal, card draw, tutor & evasion, and they all walk talk and beat down your opp at the same time. And that is just four of the ninjas. I am sure that it will be a good deck in due time.
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I think Lifespinner may make it into a spirit-combo deck with Kokushoes and Goryo's Vengeance. Oh, and Loam Dweller too, in that deck.
Once Ravager rotates, I could see Ninjas, Spiritcraft and Mono black aggro rising up to fill the void.
Why do you doubt that anyone goes out of their way to sideboard a card that is only good against one deck?
I always thought that is what a sideboard was for. Yes, I know you want cards in there that are good against multiple decks, but that is usually not the result.
How about Karma? It probably would be good against black but inneffective against anything not black. Pretty narrow, huh?
What about Oxidize? Its really only good against Affinitah, but hell, some people even mainboard the suckers.
And trust me. Tooth is not dead. I play against tooth all the time.
So no, Tooth is not dead, but do I dare say Neutered.
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Yes. Genju of the Falls will definately have 2-3 slots in there as another manland for turn one.
Higure is only good in U/X Ninjas, and since said deck doesn't exist, I'd say Higure isn't that good. He's generally going to juat be a shuffle effect in a playable deck. If you run 1 ninja, then you'll tutor that 1 ninja, and that's it.
EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, Tooth isn't dead. It's just one foot in the grave.
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I can't really see that happening. In MUAggro, maybe. MUC, we don't want to tap out first turn to make the Genju if we're running Annul, and if not the two-mana activation (It's two, right? Something that I'm disregarding tells me 3) will seriously neuter our countering power until much later in the game than would normally be appropriate. Yes, you could play it and not activate it, but then it's a dead card. And frankly, I wouldn't be all that happy if I got a Genju in my opening hand under those circumstances. Waste of a card.
That said, with no Ravager (or no MD5 at all), I can definitely see it. Then the value of maindeck Annuls will be limited at best (Plus, the Annuls themselves will rotate out), the one-drop slot will no longer be filled, and Genjus will be nice.
Eradicate - finally, MBC has enough spells against Tooth
Final Judgment
Flames of the Blood Hand - Mono Red is going to be pretty good
Frostling - duh
Genju of the ________ - there are quite a few which are noteable
Hokori
Horobi's Whisper
Kami of False Hope
Some of the Glass Kite Creatures will be played in a Blue Skies type deck
Matsu-Tribe Sniper
Ninja of Deep Hours
Quash
Shining Shoal - probably the best white card in years
Sickening Shoal
Sosuke's Summons
Sowing Salt
Umezawa's Jitte - removal for decks that normally wouldn't have it? Mono Green Beacon for example
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It's Called SB for WW, I know my sideboard will have atleast 2 of each in it. And as to contrsucted worthy cards... Jitte. I'm guessing we're all kinda assuming it will be, but I've been testing em out in white weenie... It doen't lose to ravager anymore... Ever. I think Isao may find a home in a couple of decks, as he is an all around solid creature that only gets better when you throw a couple samurai into the mix (G/W Aggro maybe?). Both Shirei and Lifespinner look to be abuseable for good combos, but I'm not sold on them together. I think that pretty much all the shoals, minus the green, will see constructed play, even the blue, at worst it's a hard counter.
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From what our playtest group have seen so far, the Black Shoal will not make the cut.
As for Horobi's Whisper...Just no. It is not even close to the "best common period." It is an O.K removal, but things like Rend Flesh and Decay are superior. In MBC there are hardly no Arcan to splice into it, so that makes it pretty much a 3cc non-black killer.
I think Ponza got something awesome in Crack the Erath, btw.
Anyway, those are the only cards I can really say have any good within them right now based on actual playtesting.
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Cranial Extraction
Hideous Laughter
Horobi's Whisper
Rend Flesh
Sickening Shoal
If someone so desired, they realistically could use the Horobi's Whisper - considering that Hideous Laughter is gaining popularity again in MBC because of the popularity of the Mono Green decks, and the soon popularity of the WW decks, Rend Flesh has been used in many lists as well, and Cranial Extraction is approaching $20 - so I don't think I need to explain that one.
We are already discussing the usage of Horobi's Whisper, so that one can also count, and I don't see any reason why Sickening Shoal can't be used (although I do not believe it is realistically a 4x, I think it can be a 2x). It's still not the best shoal, so who knows.
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