Anyone thought of adding Impact Tremors to the SB? Great synergy with 1-2 mana creatures, Captain's Claws and Gideon +0 tokens. Really only necessary if you can't get the kill by t6.
The problem is that the card does nothing by itself and is a useless top deck in the late game. While it is okay to have a few of those cards in a deck, that "slot" in the deck is taken up by equipment and going down on the number of creatures in the deck to make room would be a bad idea for the gameplan since it would also make equipment less effective.
If you guys made this deck for casual modern, what would you change? I just got into magic recently and built a very budget version for casual play with friends. I don't have any Gideon's, but that's mostly because my local card store was selling them for way too high. I could afford them, but I'm not sure how much they would help, especially since my friends and I are playing in the modern format. I have a $150 budget, but would rather not spend that much unless I really need to. I'm also not looking to invest in a side deck either, at least not right now.
Went 2nd place at today's Game Day at my LGS with the deck below. Lost out to Jeskai Black in the final. It felt like I was on a turn 6 clock, as any game that dragged on longer than that I usually lost due to not having enough to punch through. I get to 15-16 damage and stall.
Went with Hallowed Moonlight instead of Warping Wail on my SB due to Rally-focused meta.
Will probably tweak my SB further to add 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar or some Wild Slash for those drawn-out games.
The real problem with equip decks is that current equips are awfull. im sure if there were decent equip there could be a competitive equip deck.
There is synergy with these equipment's with the low cost of these creatures. Anyone playing equipment's other than Bone Saw and Captain's Claws are doing it wrong in my opinion. The deck is wickedly fast and that's the goal, to be fast. Playing equipment's that are based off of the number of creature's you have is not the best way to go. We can win by having just 4 creature's.
Reckless Bushwhacker is what we are looking for. You cannot play this card unless you surge it. If you play it for it's actual casting cost you lose the majority of the power the deck offers. SOI might offer more equipment's but Bone Saw is a surge enabler. Almost anything can be played before the Reckless Bushwhacker to cast it for surge. The other creatures are there to help push the damage through. The problem is that this is an aggro deck and cannot be played as anything other than that. Trying to make this a midrange deck by adding burn to the main deck will be it's demise.
They are still terrible equipment, the synergy isnt strong enough to compensate the terrible efficiency of those equips.
if you could just play 1ofs those equips because you had a reliable tutor like stoneforge mystic it would be different. Stoneforge acolyte needs several equips , and the 2 mana one needs to hit.
if you are using 8 slots in trash equipment like bone saw and captain claws, you dont have a winning deck.
Unless there are coming non trash equips in the next block, equipment decks are going to remain tier 4 fringe brews. (or potentially better equipment creature that tutors, the stoneforge acolyte should look the entire deck to be playable, and then you had a deck, but no, it just loos top 4....)
How many games have you played with this deck? I just don't understand the hive mindset of "the deck isn't tier one so why bother playing with it". Please realize that tier one decks are based on the decks the pro's play. Just know that this deck literally destroy's 4-color rally and Dark Jeskai. They aren't fast enough and they have to board in all of their kill and usually don't know how to pay against us because they don't see the deck much.
I play this deck because it's cost effective and actually competitive. This deck came in third are our Gameday. Coincidentally, the only deck that the 1st place deck lost to was this deck. I understand it's a personal preference but please be constructive. Posting in a forum to talking about how the deck will remain tier 4 because the equipment are "terrible" is not really helping.
Tutoring is great but makes for un-fun play. Please see Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. It's super fun to play against that tier one deck that only flashes back every card multiple times. It's horrible.
I dont need to play a deck to realize how weak it is,I know when a deck can´t perform. I tried to build it and come up with a decent list, ultimately i realized the problems with a potential build and discard it.
When i say tiers i mean like its used in all other games in terms of power, this deck is weak enough that there is no reaso to play this deck over anythign else in any kind of metagame, that is a tier 4 deck.. I dont think this deck beats 4color rally or dark jeskai any more than many other options out there (and i dont even buy this deck beat those decks badly)
It is really helping, because i assume this thread exist because competitive players want to see if there is a build that is really competitive. I came here to explain why such decklist should not exist and should just move on.
This is not a statement against brews, ive made part of my income for almost 20 years playing magic, most of it on magic online, playing Brew aggro builds (mostly W based). In fact thats why im posting here, because this is the kind of deck that i would look to see if there is potential. i did look at it, spend time, and came to the conclusion that this deck, can´t be competitive with this cardpool for the reasons i stated.
If you want to play W aggro decks which is my speciality, Warrior deck, Mono white gideon, Esper aggro, are all decks that have a lot more potential and are stronger than this one.
It´s possible that there is an Ally decklist out there that is very strong and nobody figured out yet, but i know whatever that list is, is not an equipment based one.
Thought I'd contribute another field report from FNM tonight.
Overall: The deck is cheap for this standard, it's fast, and it's rather fun to play. It can compete with the top decks in the meta, but could use some tightening up to really shine.
First, my decklist, based off of Teebs' list up the thread:
Results: 1 - 3 overall. Pretty disappointing, to be honest, but that's why we playtest More importantly, it's a great starting point. Faced a fair amount of meta-ish decks tonight for FNM, with the exception of 4C Company. Would not be surprised to see half my LGS at the GP next week, to be honest...
Deck seems solid, but land balance is a thing to watch out for. Both games I had to mull to 6, and Game 2 I should have gone to 5 - was mountain locked until t4 or 5 which could be bad.
Ran out of steam in game 3. Deflecting Palm is not enough against decks that go wide. Game 2 didn't play BFZ Gideon early enough. Even if it seems unwise, getting all the +0 blockers is important. Still could have gone either way though. Good loss.
Round 3: vs (pure colorless?) Eldrazi Ramp loss 1-2
Was too timid game 1. F**k the thopters and just go for it. Game 2 went well, but again, mountains will be the end of me. Game 3, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger happened despite getting good pressure early. Also there is a card that sacrifices all permanents under X CMC, hard counter to the deck. Should have gone Deflecting Palm with this sideboard.
Game 1 he rather effectively controlled me. The X/1 nature of most of my creatures was my downfall here. Dies to cheap removal a la Wild Slash.
Game 2 kept a 1 land hand because f**k it, why not? I also had 2 Expedition Envoys and a Bonesaw in hand so I felt I could float it. I could. Munda, Ambush Leader I picked up from the dollar rares shelf was the MVP here. Great synergy with the deck, and haste > thopters easily.
Game 3: Good tempo aside from the removal aspect again getting in the way (though not as bad as G1). Got land flooded starting t4, which doomed me.
Any thoughts on how to improve the deck? I've noticed I tend to be timid around the big blocking Eldrazi (in fear of futile attacks, who knows?) so maybe Sparkmage's Gambit? Also if there's one thing that annoyed me about the R decks I played against, it was Thunderbreak Regent. Not sure where to slot in removal, though.
Also, I know it's 64 cards, but I am not sure what to cut down here. In addition, Kor Sky Climber is a card I'd love to see in the deck somewhere, but I can't just keep putting cards in, y'know?
Standard: I'm a control player at heart, but going with Boros Allied Equipment this Standard
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
I understand where you are coming from with some of your descriptions. I do have some advise though.
- Everyone loves Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I think this is more of a sideboard card. If you are playing a control deck it can help to even out the board. I might not cut them if you are happy with them. I have not tried them but I want to keep the cmc low to play an aggro version.
- If you don't like Deflecting Palm, try Rending Volley. It takes care of Jeskai. Roast is also great for those big ramp decks or it can be another way to burn Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. The card I have been unhappy with is Relic Seeker. I've found that my version of the deck usually wins by turn 6 if I play correctly and everything goes as planned (aka. my creatures aren't all Wild Slashed) so Relic Seeker isn't necessary.
In my opinion, I think it's smart to leave all burn in the sideboard and try to take them down fast in game one. If you can't do that, then you're not going to beat them with speed. I then think of the burn in the sideboard as a way to transform the deck into more of a burn and ping deck. I played a game online yesterday where I burned 3 of there creatures in a row and was able to swing with my 2Expedition Envoys for over 10 damage because they couldn't keep a creature out.
I personally think that 14 artifacts are too many. The build you worked on seems more midrange to me. I would personally cut 2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar to the sideboard and cut the 2 Chitinous Cloak altogether. Did you ever animate Needle Spires? I haven't added any yet but I am curious. No one has actually mentioned animating it yet. Also, I feel Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh is a bit hard on our mana since she is not an ally. But if she preformed well, then by all means, keep her in.
Also, I felt so bad reading that you missed the flip on Kytheon, Hero of Akros. The nice thing about MTGO is that it tells you that it was triggered! Kytheon will attract the burn so if you can in fact play him and them surge a bushwhacker, then you will probably be able to keep the bushwacker. It's all about presenting the threats to deter them from realizing that all we want to do is swing. We don't actually care about flipping Kytheon. It's great if we do, and I have many time, but if we don't we still win because we just swing for lots of damage and fast.
However, we all need to remember that it is all about luck sometimes. I played six games on MTGO last night and won 5 of them. Lost to a weird W/U control deck that played pacifism and singing-bell strike and counters. It was miserable. I have been beating Eldrazi Ramp and R/G landfall post-board. You need to burn their important creatures and you can in fact survive. It feels so good to burn everything that destroyed you the first game.
I Hope this helps. Don't be discouraged. It was the trial run. It's a cheap and efficient deck that has already proven to be able to win FNM's. The misplay's in the beginning make this more difficult to play than most people think. It's not self piloted like some decks can be. Don't forget about the second ability of Ally Encampment. People online get so mad when they forget about it and burn a creature just to see if go back to my hand.
Based on my limited testing results so far, Munda, Ambush Leader seems to be a much better selection for the 4 CMC slot than Pia & Kiran Nalaar simply because Haste and the Ally subtype fit well with the rest of the deck. Plus that draw fixing could potentially be extremely useful in the right circumstances. Just my opinion to be fair, but I'll have to consider Pia & Kiran Nalaar for the sideboard anyway - stacking equipment on thopters is a nice bit of evasion that the deck could use against blockers, in addition to the whole "four free damage to face by sacrificing them" bit.
Interesting that you think 14 artifacts is too much, but I see your point. Initially I just had the six listed in Teebs' idea, but felt it was too few. Made Bone Saw a 4-of both because almost-free +1/+0 and enabling Surge more readily. Added the Chitinous Cloaks on a hunch that it might be decent value by adding menace on top of the +2/+2, but after testing it I agree with your assessment that it's a bit too slow. 6 mana to play and equip it is a bit of a luxury we can't quite afford in this deck. Then added the Hedron Blades because I thought adding to the toughness as well could be valuable, and the deathtouch could help in the Eldrazi matchup. It could have enabled a nice trade against a Thought-Knot Seer or the like, but maybe a little too situational. Thinking of Stoneforge Masterwork instead.
What do you think about burn/removal spells to put in the sideboard? Rending Volley feels a little too situational with the color restriction, but then again, Roast also has a restriction on it and it's not too bad, I suppose, as long as Kolaghan and Thunderbreak Regents manage to stay away
In Game 3 of Round 4 I did in fact animate the Needle Spires! (I also equipped a bonesaw to the animated land... #thedream) Ended up trading it with a Thunderbreak Regent. Not sure who won on that one, but the double strike is nice...
I'm not sure about Chandra either. I felt as if superfriends might be a nice alternate win condition for the deck, plus she seemed easy to flip in theory - just equip a bonesaw and boom, 3 damage in a turn! Nobody at my LGS was sure whether that worked the way I think it could or if it had to be the tap ability - any judges lurking around here want to confirm? In any case, she just didn't have a chance to have the impact I wanted when putting her in. Not ready to give up on her quite yet, but I am considering Chandra, Flamecaller instead, but the CMC is a little high...
Heh, better to miss these triggers now than at Comp REL It ended up not mattering in the end, but that's why we test these things - I am notorious for missing triggers in my newer decks.
Haha, that UW Control deck sounds like one I would build! I don't play MTGO though, so it wasn't me ;P Have been brainstorming a brew with Singing Bell Strike though.
Not a problem! My post from last night reads a lot more spike-y than I had perhaps intended. I love to win, but I love doing it with an interesting deck - definitely a Johnny at heart! (aka there's a reason I'm here instead of in the 4C Rally thread) I literally copy+pasted from my notes in between rounds so it might sound fairly harsh and ~serious~, but in the end I'm planning on playing a so-called "rogue" brew at a GP next week! If it's not about fun, what's the point?
Edit: Mind explaining a bit about Ally Encampment? I'm not quite sure what you mean by the second ability. Using it for "Ally color" mana is a nice tech that has saved me a few times in testing for sure and has caused consternation for opponents when they fail to take it into account, think I only have 1W open and drop a Weapons Trainer for example What do you mean about the creature going back to your hand, though? From what I can tell it isn't for things in the 'yard, but I don't see how it works, exactly. Is it just an "in response" to the burn spell going on the stack? (my favorite phrase in this game, by the way)
Standard: I'm a control player at heart, but going with Boros Allied Equipment this Standard
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
The Ally Encampment is really useful early game to get our color fix but late game to avoid having our creatures killed. Additionally, I have found it useful to bounce an ally back to my hand just so I can trigger rally for another creature.
Say I have a Kor Bladewhirl and 2 Expedition Envoy on the battlefield. If at the of my opponents turn I realize I won't be able to trigger rally next turn but I can get some damage through if I could trigger rally, I could pay 1 and sacrifice Ally Encampment to return Kor Bladewhirl to my hand so I am guaranteed a rally trigger for my Expedition Envoys the next turn.
I have also done this when I have had a card to cast in hand and a Reckless Bushwhacker on the battlefield. I sacrifice Ally Encampment to return the Reckless Bushwhacker to my hand so next turn I can cast him with surge giving any creature that I have on the battlefield more power the next turn. It's really useful on turns 5-8. It's also the best when your opponent is open and you control one creature and cast Kytheon, Hero of Akros into a surged Reckless Bushwhacker flipping Kytheon, Hero of Akros that turn.
Alright, so I've done a little more theorycrafting. Still not quite as certain on the sequencing of Ally Encampment to avoid having creatures killed as I would like to be, but that's a minor question that shouldn't distract us much more.
I really like the synergy Stoneforge Masterwork can give us. Count how many +1/+1 counters you could get attaching it to something like a Kor Bladewhirl. Per Gatherer. it doesn't have to be a 100% exact match to the creature type:
1/22/2016 The bonus is only +1/+1 per applicable creature, even if it shares more than one creature type with the equipped creature. For example, if the equipped creature is a Human Shaman and you control a Human Warrior, a Goblin Shaman, and another Human Shaman, the equipped creature will get +3/+3.
Need I say more??? Especially on one of those that has types in common with Gideon or Captains' Claws tokens...
6/22/2015 The last sentence of Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh’s activated ability isn’t a separate ability. The check happens only as that activated ability resolves. You must activate the ability in order to exile Chandra and return her to the battlefield transformed, even if Chandra has already dealt 3 or more damage during the turn.
Damn it. Maybe after sideboarding in Expedite it could work, but this deck just isn't built to throw those cheap burn spells out as easily. Maybe that's the spot the Sky Climber could go in?
Alternatively, -2 Chandra and -2 Chitinous Cloak gives us our 60...
Speaking of burn spells/removal, what about Immolating Glare? It seems like a strictly better Celestial Flare and might be a solution against Thunderbreak Regent/other annoying big guys...
Standard: I'm a control player at heart, but going with Boros Allied Equipment this Standard
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
Congratulations. I have had an immense amount of success with this deck. Now that a new PW card (who will remain nameless) was spoiled and may or may not search for Artifact was revealed, I would assume that we will get some new artifact's to play around with. Only time will tell.
Congratulations. I have had an immense amount of success with this deck. Now that a new PW card (who will remain nameless) was spoiled and may or may not search for Artifact was revealed, I would assume that we will get some new artifact's to play around with. Only time will tell.
Yup, hope that some more cool stuff will come out for this deck with the new set! I'm a bit excited for Nahiri, the Harbinger she might be a good addition to the deck!
Congratulations. I have had an immense amount of success with this deck. Now that a new PW card (who will remain nameless) was spoiled and may or may not search for Artifact was revealed, I would assume that we will get some new artifact's to play around with. Only time will tell.
Yup, hope that some more cool stuff will come out for this deck with the new set! I'm a bit excited for Nahiri, the Harbinger she might be a good addition to the deck!
Also New Edric I think. But since our ally give our creature those ability, maybe he is not that great.
I will buy 4x Nahiri ASAP. She is so cool.
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STD : UR spell / UR eldrazi / Temur eldrazi beatdown.
Modern : UR Storm / UR Delver / UR Counter Burn
Oh Lord I am excited for SOI. So many good things coming for this deck... That Nahiri they spoiled, and new Avacyn among others as a top end of the curve feels like it would be awesome.
Anyway, GP Houston was...not good Ran into a wall of Bant Company and ended up going 2-4 in the main event. I was happy though - 2 wins is far better than I did at the last GP I went to! Could get around to uploading my notes, but I've iterated on the deck so much since then that so it might as well be skipped. Next test for the deck is a PPTQ/1k tournament on Saturday, which should be interesting.
In the meantime, I got 4th in an FNM with it a couple weeks ago! Going for the win this week after having to skip last week's tournament. Have any of y'all thought about splashing :symb:? Kalastria Healer and perhaps Zulaport Cutthroat are amazing for tempo in this deck. Well, still testing the latter, but the Healer is what got me the top 4 (and my first top 8 ever) Bant Company is still a challenge, as is Eldrazi Ramp, but this is quickly becoming my favorite standard deck in a [i]long[/i] time. One of the top players at my LGS (went deep into day 2 at said GP) was on Atarka Red when I played him during the FNM and I managed to comfortably outrace that deck. Reckless Bushwhacker is an All-Star, no other way to put it.
Removal is still a question mark - I feel like the deck needs [i]something[i] to answer a big threat like Dragonlord Atarka, various planeswalkers, and so on, or to stabilize after an opponent goes wide with Collected Company or the like. So what did I do? Bought the deck on MTGO along with a playset of every removal spell in standard :laugh2::laugh2: of course. Figure I could use all the extra practice I can get if I'm setting my sights on PPTQs and such... Plus Friday nights just feel weird when I can't go out to an LGS and play - this could be the solution to that. I'll always be a paper player first and foremost, but getting more (and better) practice can help I would think.
Anyway, here's the latest iteration I've played with:
Now I put it out like that, 30 creatures seems a little heavy - maybe I'll tone it down for Veteran's Sidearm or something. Thoughts? I love the idea of Stoneforge Masterwork, but it feels more like a "win more" card that doesn't help if and when I really need the extra boost.
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Standard: I'm a control player at heart, but going with Boros Allied Equipment this Standard
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
I played Stoneforge Masterwork in Goblins... the problem is that it costs 2 to equip. It IS good if you need a 5/5 for some reason (maybe vs. red decks with damage based removal).
I played Stoneforge Masterwork in Goblins... the problem is that it costs 2 to equip. It IS good if you need a 5/5 for some reason (maybe vs. red decks with damage based removal).
It costs 2 to equip it, and it does nothing if you have only one creature out unless I missed something with the way the card reads. Shouldn't be too often that that scenario occurs if we're speaking in an ideal sense, and maybe that's closer to reality as I practice more, but it's happened enough that the card feels like a real liability to me.
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Standard: I'm a control player at heart, but going with Boros Allied Equipment this Standard
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
Oh Lord I am excited for SOI. So many good things coming for this deck... That Nahiri they spoiled, and new Avacyn among others as a top end of the curve feels like it would be awesome.
Anyway, GP Houston was...not good Ran into a wall of Bant Company and ended up going 2-4 in the main event. I was happy though - 2 wins is far better than I did at the last GP I went to! Could get around to uploading my notes, but I've iterated on the deck so much since then that so it might as well be skipped. Next test for the deck is a PPTQ/1k tournament on Saturday, which should be interesting.
In the meantime, I got 4th in an FNM with it a couple weeks ago! Going for the win this week after having to skip last week's tournament. Have any of y'all thought about splashing :symb:? Kalastria Healer and perhaps Zulaport Cutthroat are amazing for tempo in this deck. Well, still testing the latter, but the Healer is what got me the top 4 (and my first top 8 ever) Bant Company is still a challenge, as is Eldrazi Ramp, but this is quickly becoming my favorite standard deck in a [i]long[/i] time. One of the top players at my LGS (went deep into day 2 at said GP) was on Atarka Red when I played him during the FNM and I managed to comfortably outrace that deck. Reckless Bushwhacker is an All-Star, no other way to put it.
Removal is still a question mark - I feel like the deck needs [i]something[i] to answer a big threat like Dragonlord Atarka, various planeswalkers, and so on, or to stabilize after an opponent goes wide with Collected Company or the like. So what did I do? Bought the deck on MTGO along with a playset of every removal spell in standard :laugh2::laugh2: of course. Figure I could use all the extra practice I can get if I'm setting my sights on PPTQs and such... Plus Friday nights just feel weird when I can't go out to an LGS and play - this could be the solution to that. I'll always be a paper player first and foremost, but getting more (and better) practice can help I would think.
Anyway, here's the latest iteration I've played with:
Now I put it out like that, 30 creatures seems a little heavy - maybe I'll tone it down for Veteran's Sidearm or something. Thoughts? I love the idea of Stoneforge Masterwork, but it feels more like a "win more" card that doesn't help if and when I really need the extra boost.
Unless I counted wrong, this deck is missing 4 cards and all of the equipment in the main board. How many equipment are you playing. Also, I think that adding a third color without fetches is a bad idea for this deck. It's viable now with fetched and fetchable duels, but in three weeks that will be gone.
Oh Lord I am excited for SOI. So many good things coming for this deck... That Nahiri they spoiled, and new Avacyn among others as a top end of the curve feels like it would be awesome.
Anyway, GP Houston was...not good Ran into a wall of Bant Company and ended up going 2-4 in the main event. I was happy though - 2 wins is far better than I did at the last GP I went to! Could get around to uploading my notes, but I've iterated on the deck so much since then that so it might as well be skipped. Next test for the deck is a PPTQ/1k tournament on Saturday, which should be interesting.
In the meantime, I got 4th in an FNM with it a couple weeks ago! Going for the win this week after having to skip last week's tournament. Have any of y'all thought about splashing :symb:? Kalastria Healer and perhaps Zulaport Cutthroat are amazing for tempo in this deck. Well, still testing the latter, but the Healer is what got me the top 4 (and my first top 8 ever) Bant Company is still a challenge, as is Eldrazi Ramp, but this is quickly becoming my favorite standard deck in a [i]long[/i] time. One of the top players at my LGS (went deep into day 2 at said GP) was on Atarka Red when I played him during the FNM and I managed to comfortably outrace that deck. Reckless Bushwhacker is an All-Star, no other way to put it.
Removal is still a question mark - I feel like the deck needs [i]something[i] to answer a big threat like Dragonlord Atarka, various planeswalkers, and so on, or to stabilize after an opponent goes wide with Collected Company or the like. So what did I do? Bought the deck on MTGO along with a playset of every removal spell in standard :laugh2::laugh2: of course. Figure I could use all the extra practice I can get if I'm setting my sights on PPTQs and such... Plus Friday nights just feel weird when I can't go out to an LGS and play - this could be the solution to that. I'll always be a paper player first and foremost, but getting more (and better) practice can help I would think.
Anyway, here's the latest iteration I've played with:
Now I put it out like that, 30 creatures seems a little heavy - maybe I'll tone it down for Veteran's Sidearm or something. Thoughts? I love the idea of Stoneforge Masterwork, but it feels more like a "win more" card that doesn't help if and when I really need the extra boost.
Unless I counted wrong, this deck is missing 4 cards and all of the equipment in the main board. How many equipment are you playing. Also, I think that adding a third color without fetches is a bad idea for this deck. It's viable now with fetched and fetchable duels, but in three weeks that will be gone.
...Huh, I could've sworn the 4x Captain's Claws were in there when I posted. I blame the leprechauns. You're right: 4 equipment sometimes feels light, but that is something I'm trying to figure out. The deck honestly feels like it benefits from some form of spot removal, but how to work it in?
I get what you mean about three colors, especially post-rotation. And yet, we aren't playing three colors, not really. Our only real card is Kalastria Healer, and we play her with the Ally Encampment the vast majority of the time anyway. Mardu Charm is in that version of the sideboard, but it was just a weird idea I was tossing around - in fact, I've dropped it again in my testing. The painlands aren't rotating out yet (ORI), and are mostly there to smooth out the manabase. Could be possible to drop the actual sources other than the encampments, but I had them so I tossed them in there.
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Standard: I'm a control player at heart, but going with Boros Allied Equipment this Standard
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
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Went with Hallowed Moonlight instead of Warping Wail on my SB due to Rally-focused meta.
Will probably tweak my SB further to add 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar or some Wild Slash for those drawn-out games.
4 Ally Encampment
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Shambling Vent
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
5 Plains
Spells (10)
2 Stoneforge Masterwork
4 Captain's Claws
2 Stasis Snare
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Expedition Envoy
2 Stoneforge Acolyte
4 Weapons Trainer
2 Kor Bladewhirl
2 Stone Haven Outfitter
4 Kalastria Healer
2 Drana's Emissary
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Firemantle Mage
2 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
2 Rending Volley
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
2 Crackling Doom
2 Ruinous Path
2 Lantern Scout
1 Quarantine Field
2 March from the Tomb
There is synergy with these equipment's with the low cost of these creatures. Anyone playing equipment's other than Bone Saw and Captain's Claws are doing it wrong in my opinion. The deck is wickedly fast and that's the goal, to be fast. Playing equipment's that are based off of the number of creature's you have is not the best way to go. We can win by having just 4 creature's.
Reckless Bushwhacker is what we are looking for. You cannot play this card unless you surge it. If you play it for it's actual casting cost you lose the majority of the power the deck offers. SOI might offer more equipment's but Bone Saw is a surge enabler. Almost anything can be played before the Reckless Bushwhacker to cast it for surge. The other creatures are there to help push the damage through. The problem is that this is an aggro deck and cannot be played as anything other than that. Trying to make this a midrange deck by adding burn to the main deck will be it's demise.
if you could just play 1ofs those equips because you had a reliable tutor like stoneforge mystic it would be different. Stoneforge acolyte needs several equips , and the 2 mana one needs to hit.
if you are using 8 slots in trash equipment like bone saw and captain claws, you dont have a winning deck.
Unless there are coming non trash equips in the next block, equipment decks are going to remain tier 4 fringe brews. (or potentially better equipment creature that tutors, the stoneforge acolyte should look the entire deck to be playable, and then you had a deck, but no, it just loos top 4....)
I play this deck because it's cost effective and actually competitive. This deck came in third are our Gameday. Coincidentally, the only deck that the 1st place deck lost to was this deck. I understand it's a personal preference but please be constructive. Posting in a forum to talking about how the deck will remain tier 4 because the equipment are "terrible" is not really helping.
Tutoring is great but makes for un-fun play. Please see Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. It's super fun to play against that tier one deck that only flashes back every card multiple times. It's horrible.
When i say tiers i mean like its used in all other games in terms of power, this deck is weak enough that there is no reaso to play this deck over anythign else in any kind of metagame, that is a tier 4 deck.. I dont think this deck beats 4color rally or dark jeskai any more than many other options out there (and i dont even buy this deck beat those decks badly)
It is really helping, because i assume this thread exist because competitive players want to see if there is a build that is really competitive. I came here to explain why such decklist should not exist and should just move on.
This is not a statement against brews, ive made part of my income for almost 20 years playing magic, most of it on magic online, playing Brew aggro builds (mostly W based). In fact thats why im posting here, because this is the kind of deck that i would look to see if there is potential. i did look at it, spend time, and came to the conclusion that this deck, can´t be competitive with this cardpool for the reasons i stated.
If you want to play W aggro decks which is my speciality, Warrior deck, Mono white gideon, Esper aggro, are all decks that have a lot more potential and are stronger than this one.
It´s possible that there is an Ally decklist out there that is very strong and nobody figured out yet, but i know whatever that list is, is not an equipment based one.
Overall: The deck is cheap for this standard, it's fast, and it's rather fun to play. It can compete with the top decks in the meta, but could use some tightening up to really shine.
First, my decklist, based off of Teebs' list up the thread:
4x Ally Encampment
2x Battlefield Forge
7x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
7x Plains
Creature (26)
2x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
4x Weapons Trainer
4x Expedition Envoy
4x Firemantle Mage
4x Kor Bladewhirl
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4x Bone Saw
4x Captain's Claws
2x Chitinous Cloak
4x Hedron Blade
Planeswalker (2)
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Brute Strength
4x Deflecting Palm
4x Expedite
2x Relic Seeker
2x Zada's Commando
Results: 1 - 3 overall. Pretty disappointing, to be honest, but that's why we playtest More importantly, it's a great starting point. Faced a fair amount of meta-ish decks tonight for FNM, with the exception of 4C Company. Would not be surprised to see half my LGS at the GP next week, to be honest...
Round-by-Round breakdown:
Round 1: vs Jund Dragons win 2-0
Sideboard
-2 Firemantle Mage -2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
+4 Deflecting Palm
Thoughts:
Deck seems solid, but land balance is a thing to watch out for. Both games I had to mull to 6, and Game 2 I should have gone to 5 - was mountain locked until t4 or 5 which could be bad.
Also forgot the flip Kytheon trigger on G1
Round 2: vs Mono Red loss 1-2
-4 Firemantle Mage
+4 Deflecting Palm
Ran out of steam in game 3. Deflecting Palm is not enough against decks that go wide. Game 2 didn't play BFZ Gideon early enough. Even if it seems unwise, getting all the +0 blockers is important. Still could have gone either way though. Good loss.
Round 3: vs (pure colorless?) Eldrazi Ramp loss 1-2
-2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar -1 Bonesaw
+3 Brute Strength
Was too timid game 1. F**k the thopters and just go for it. Game 2 went well, but again, mountains will be the end of me. Game 3, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger happened despite getting good pressure early. Also there is a card that sacrifices all permanents under X CMC, hard counter to the deck. Should have gone Deflecting Palm with this sideboard.
Round 4: vs Mardu Dragons loss 1-2
-4 Hedron Blade
+4 Deflecting Palm
Game 1 he rather effectively controlled me. The X/1 nature of most of my creatures was my downfall here. Dies to cheap removal a la Wild Slash.
Game 2 kept a 1 land hand because f**k it, why not? I also had 2 Expedition Envoys and a Bonesaw in hand so I felt I could float it. I could. Munda, Ambush Leader I picked up from the dollar rares shelf was the MVP here. Great synergy with the deck, and haste > thopters easily.
Game 3: Good tempo aside from the removal aspect again getting in the way (though not as bad as G1). Got land flooded starting t4, which doomed me.
Any thoughts on how to improve the deck? I've noticed I tend to be timid around the big blocking Eldrazi (in fear of futile attacks, who knows?) so maybe Sparkmage's Gambit? Also if there's one thing that annoyed me about the R decks I played against, it was Thunderbreak Regent. Not sure where to slot in removal, though.
Also, I know it's 64 cards, but I am not sure what to cut down here. In addition, Kor Sky Climber is a card I'd love to see in the deck somewhere, but I can't just keep putting cards in, y'know?
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
I understand where you are coming from with some of your descriptions. I do have some advise though.
- Everyone loves Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I think this is more of a sideboard card. If you are playing a control deck it can help to even out the board. I might not cut them if you are happy with them. I have not tried them but I want to keep the cmc low to play an aggro version.
- If you don't like Deflecting Palm, try Rending Volley. It takes care of Jeskai. Roast is also great for those big ramp decks or it can be another way to burn Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. The card I have been unhappy with is Relic Seeker. I've found that my version of the deck usually wins by turn 6 if I play correctly and everything goes as planned (aka. my creatures aren't all Wild Slashed) so Relic Seeker isn't necessary.
In my opinion, I think it's smart to leave all burn in the sideboard and try to take them down fast in game one. If you can't do that, then you're not going to beat them with speed. I then think of the burn in the sideboard as a way to transform the deck into more of a burn and ping deck. I played a game online yesterday where I burned 3 of there creatures in a row and was able to swing with my 2Expedition Envoys for over 10 damage because they couldn't keep a creature out.
I personally think that 14 artifacts are too many. The build you worked on seems more midrange to me. I would personally cut 2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar to the sideboard and cut the 2 Chitinous Cloak altogether. Did you ever animate Needle Spires? I haven't added any yet but I am curious. No one has actually mentioned animating it yet. Also, I feel Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh is a bit hard on our mana since she is not an ally. But if she preformed well, then by all means, keep her in.
Also, I felt so bad reading that you missed the flip on Kytheon, Hero of Akros. The nice thing about MTGO is that it tells you that it was triggered! Kytheon will attract the burn so if you can in fact play him and them surge a bushwhacker, then you will probably be able to keep the bushwacker. It's all about presenting the threats to deter them from realizing that all we want to do is swing. We don't actually care about flipping Kytheon. It's great if we do, and I have many time, but if we don't we still win because we just swing for lots of damage and fast.
However, we all need to remember that it is all about luck sometimes. I played six games on MTGO last night and won 5 of them. Lost to a weird W/U control deck that played pacifism and singing-bell strike and counters. It was miserable. I have been beating Eldrazi Ramp and R/G landfall post-board. You need to burn their important creatures and you can in fact survive. It feels so good to burn everything that destroyed you the first game.
I Hope this helps. Don't be discouraged. It was the trial run. It's a cheap and efficient deck that has already proven to be able to win FNM's. The misplay's in the beginning make this more difficult to play than most people think. It's not self piloted like some decks can be. Don't forget about the second ability of Ally Encampment. People online get so mad when they forget about it and burn a creature just to see if go back to my hand.
Happy gaming!
Based on my limited testing results so far, Munda, Ambush Leader seems to be a much better selection for the 4 CMC slot than Pia & Kiran Nalaar simply because Haste and the Ally subtype fit well with the rest of the deck. Plus that draw fixing could potentially be extremely useful in the right circumstances. Just my opinion to be fair, but I'll have to consider Pia & Kiran Nalaar for the sideboard anyway - stacking equipment on thopters is a nice bit of evasion that the deck could use against blockers, in addition to the whole "four free damage to face by sacrificing them" bit.
Interesting that you think 14 artifacts is too much, but I see your point. Initially I just had the six listed in Teebs' idea, but felt it was too few. Made Bone Saw a 4-of both because almost-free +1/+0 and enabling Surge more readily. Added the Chitinous Cloaks on a hunch that it might be decent value by adding menace on top of the +2/+2, but after testing it I agree with your assessment that it's a bit too slow. 6 mana to play and equip it is a bit of a luxury we can't quite afford in this deck. Then added the Hedron Blades because I thought adding to the toughness as well could be valuable, and the deathtouch could help in the Eldrazi matchup. It could have enabled a nice trade against a Thought-Knot Seer or the like, but maybe a little too situational. Thinking of Stoneforge Masterwork instead.
What do you think about burn/removal spells to put in the sideboard? Rending Volley feels a little too situational with the color restriction, but then again, Roast also has a restriction on it and it's not too bad, I suppose, as long as Kolaghan and Thunderbreak Regents manage to stay away
In Game 3 of Round 4 I did in fact animate the Needle Spires! (I also equipped a bonesaw to the animated land... #thedream) Ended up trading it with a Thunderbreak Regent. Not sure who won on that one, but the double strike is nice...
I'm not sure about Chandra either. I felt as if superfriends might be a nice alternate win condition for the deck, plus she seemed easy to flip in theory - just equip a bonesaw and boom, 3 damage in a turn! Nobody at my LGS was sure whether that worked the way I think it could or if it had to be the tap ability - any judges lurking around here want to confirm? In any case, she just didn't have a chance to have the impact I wanted when putting her in. Not ready to give up on her quite yet, but I am considering Chandra, Flamecaller instead, but the CMC is a little high...
Heh, better to miss these triggers now than at Comp REL It ended up not mattering in the end, but that's why we test these things - I am notorious for missing triggers in my newer decks.
Haha, that UW Control deck sounds like one I would build! I don't play MTGO though, so it wasn't me ;P Have been brainstorming a brew with Singing Bell Strike though.
Not a problem! My post from last night reads a lot more spike-y than I had perhaps intended. I love to win, but I love doing it with an interesting deck - definitely a Johnny at heart! (aka there's a reason I'm here instead of in the 4C Rally thread) I literally copy+pasted from my notes in between rounds so it might sound fairly harsh and ~serious~, but in the end I'm planning on playing a so-called "rogue" brew at a GP next week! If it's not about fun, what's the point?
Edit: Mind explaining a bit about Ally Encampment? I'm not quite sure what you mean by the second ability. Using it for "Ally color" mana is a nice tech that has saved me a few times in testing for sure and has caused consternation for opponents when they fail to take it into account, think I only have 1W open and drop a Weapons Trainer for example What do you mean about the creature going back to your hand, though? From what I can tell it isn't for things in the 'yard, but I don't see how it works, exactly. Is it just an "in response" to the burn spell going on the stack? (my favorite phrase in this game, by the way)
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
Say I have a Kor Bladewhirl and 2 Expedition Envoy on the battlefield. If at the of my opponents turn I realize I won't be able to trigger rally next turn but I can get some damage through if I could trigger rally, I could pay 1 and sacrifice Ally Encampment to return Kor Bladewhirl to my hand so I am guaranteed a rally trigger for my Expedition Envoys the next turn.
I have also done this when I have had a card to cast in hand and a Reckless Bushwhacker on the battlefield. I sacrifice Ally Encampment to return the Reckless Bushwhacker to my hand so next turn I can cast him with surge giving any creature that I have on the battlefield more power the next turn. It's really useful on turns 5-8. It's also the best when your opponent is open and you control one creature and cast Kytheon, Hero of Akros into a surged Reckless Bushwhacker flipping Kytheon, Hero of Akros that turn.
I really like the synergy Stoneforge Masterwork can give us. Count how many +1/+1 counters you could get attaching it to something like a Kor Bladewhirl. Per Gatherer. it doesn't have to be a 100% exact match to the creature type:
Need I say more??? Especially on one of those that has types in common with Gideon or Captains' Claws tokens...
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh won't work in this deck as well as I would have hoped. Again, per Gatherer:
Damn it. Maybe after sideboarding in Expedite it could work, but this deck just isn't built to throw those cheap burn spells out as easily. Maybe that's the spot the Sky Climber could go in?
Alternatively, -2 Chandra and -2 Chitinous Cloak gives us our 60...
Speaking of burn spells/removal, what about Immolating Glare? It seems like a strictly better Celestial Flare and might be a solution against Thunderbreak Regent/other annoying big guys...
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
This is my deck now.
4 Battlefield Forge
6 Mountain
10 Plains
2 Needle Spires
Creatures (30)
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Kor Scythemaster
4 Kor Bladewhirl
4 Zada's Commando
4 Stoneforge Acolyte
2 Relic Seeker
2 Stone Haven Outfitter
4 Weapons Trainer
2 Resolute Blademaster
4 Captain's Claws
4 Bone Saw
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Modern : UR Storm / UR Delver / UR Counter Burn
I Love Izzet Color.
4x Expedition Envoy
2x Firemantle Mage
4x Kor Bladewhirl
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2x Lantern Scout
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
3x Stone Haven Outfitter
3x Stoneforge Acolyte
4x Weapons Trainer
3x Bone Saw
4x Captain's Claws
Lands
4x Ally Encampment
4x Battlefield Forge
3x Needle Spires
8x Plains
2x Wind-Scarred Crag
Instant
4x Valorous Stance
2x Boiling Earth
2x Felidar Cub
3x Hallowed Moonlight
3x Roast
2x Tears of Valakut
Congratulations. I have had an immense amount of success with this deck. Now that a new PW card (who will remain nameless) was spoiled and may or may not search for Artifact was revealed, I would assume that we will get some new artifact's to play around with. Only time will tell.
Yup, hope that some more cool stuff will come out for this deck with the new set! I'm a bit excited for Nahiri, the Harbinger she might be a good addition to the deck!
Also New Edric I think. But since our ally give our creature those ability, maybe he is not that great.
I will buy 4x Nahiri ASAP. She is so cool.
Modern : UR Storm / UR Delver / UR Counter Burn
I Love Izzet Color.
Anyway, GP Houston was...not good Ran into a wall of Bant Company and ended up going 2-4 in the main event. I was happy though - 2 wins is far better than I did at the last GP I went to! Could get around to uploading my notes, but I've iterated on the deck so much since then that so it might as well be skipped. Next test for the deck is a PPTQ/1k tournament on Saturday, which should be interesting.
In the meantime, I got 4th in an FNM with it a couple weeks ago! Going for the win this week after having to skip last week's tournament. Have any of y'all thought about splashing :symb:? Kalastria Healer and perhaps Zulaport Cutthroat are amazing for tempo in this deck. Well, still testing the latter, but the Healer is what got me the top 4 (and my first top 8 ever) Bant Company is still a challenge, as is Eldrazi Ramp, but this is quickly becoming my favorite standard deck in a [i]long[/i] time. One of the top players at my LGS (went deep into day 2 at said GP) was on Atarka Red when I played him during the FNM and I managed to comfortably outrace that deck. Reckless Bushwhacker is an All-Star, no other way to put it.
Removal is still a question mark - I feel like the deck needs [i]something[i] to answer a big threat like Dragonlord Atarka, various planeswalkers, and so on, or to stabilize after an opponent goes wide with Collected Company or the like. So what did I do? Bought the deck on MTGO along with a playset of every removal spell in standard :laugh2::laugh2: of course. Figure I could use all the extra practice I can get if I'm setting my sights on PPTQs and such... Plus Friday nights just feel weird when I can't go out to an LGS and play - this could be the solution to that. I'll always be a paper player first and foremost, but getting more (and better) practice can help I would think.
Anyway, here's the latest iteration I've played with:
4 Kalastria Healer
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Firemantle Mage
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Kor Bladewhirl
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Munda, Ambush Leader
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Weapons Trainer
4 Devour in Flames
Land - 22
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Ally Encampment
5 Plains
2 Needle Spires
5 Mountain
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Smoldering Marsh
3 Celestial Flare
4 Deflecting Palm
4 Mardu Charm
4 Roast
Now I put it out like that, 30 creatures seems a little heavy - maybe I'll tone it down for Veteran's Sidearm or something. Thoughts? I love the idea of Stoneforge Masterwork, but it feels more like a "win more" card that doesn't help if and when I really need the extra boost.
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
It costs 2 to equip it, and it does nothing if you have only one creature out unless I missed something with the way the card reads. Shouldn't be too often that that scenario occurs if we're speaking in an ideal sense, and maybe that's closer to reality as I practice more, but it's happened enough that the card feels like a real liability to me.
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited
Unless I counted wrong, this deck is missing 4 cards and all of the equipment in the main board. How many equipment are you playing. Also, I think that adding a third color without fetches is a bad idea for this deck. It's viable now with fetched and fetchable duels, but in three weeks that will be gone.
...Huh, I could've sworn the 4x Captain's Claws were in there when I posted. I blame the leprechauns. You're right: 4 equipment sometimes feels light, but that is something I'm trying to figure out. The deck honestly feels like it benefits from some form of spot removal, but how to work it in?
I get what you mean about three colors, especially post-rotation. And yet, we aren't playing three colors, not really. Our only real card is Kalastria Healer, and we play her with the Ally Encampment the vast majority of the time anyway. Mardu Charm is in that version of the sideboard, but it was just a weird idea I was tossing around - in fact, I've dropped it again in my testing. The painlands aren't rotating out yet (ORI), and are mostly there to smooth out the manabase. Could be possible to drop the actual sources other than the encampments, but I had them so I tossed them in there.
Modern: Love my Goblins, but want to build Merfolk
Utterly terrible at all things limited