I've been playing a midrange r/b dragons since stormbreath and abzan has always been a good matchup in my opinion. I've removed flame wake Phoenix and added either sarkhan or obnixilis. Ramp isn't really a problem but I feel like with goblin dark dwellers it got better. Maybe a 2 of inclusion with 2 kolaghans storms fury and 1 dragon lord kolaghan at the top. Kolaghans commas was always good and even though it can't beat siege rhino I've liked the card in the other matchups. Glad to see its getting a lot of love.
I've been playing a midrange r/b dragons since stormbreath and abzan has always been a good matchup in my opinion. I've removed flame wake Phoenix and added either sarkhan or obnixilis. Ramp isn't really a problem but I feel like with goblin dark dwellers it got better. Maybe a 2 of inclusion with 2 kolaghans storms fury and 1 dragon lord kolaghan at the top. Kolaghans commas was always good and even though it can't beat siege rhino I've liked the card in the other matchups. Glad to see its getting a lot of love.
Wow, traditionally, Ramp is a tough match up for mid range because if they can hit their end game around turn 6, they just outclass us,but it's feast or famine. If they miss one ramp spell or don't draw their few end game cards, they just have land.
I've tried 2 KSF and 1 DLK and always found that extra mana to be tough. Granted the haste, giving guys haste etc and the second paragraph helps but that mana has been tough. Though that was a Mardu dragon deck. R/B Dragons may be better but what this deck wants to do is T3 Outburst or Phoenix, T4 Regent, T5 Dash KSF and win or get the enemy super low that a target to Regent is lethal.
DL Kolaghan is a great top deck in a grindy match up because they likely have a kill spell in their grave yard and can't afford to take 10 damage. If you do want to add more top end, Sarkhan makes a better choice IMO since he can spot remove or close the game as a Dragon.
I would say 3 KSF and 4 Regent is the sweet spot IMO. Save the extra spot for Goblin Dark Dwellers to recast Hordeling outburst.
Now Top 4. Thopter engineer Is looking like a boss with with Pia and Kira. Perfect example of how this deck wins with no Kolaghan. Granted, it's harder, but can do it.
PKN and Thopter Engineer shore up the MU against Crackling Doom and removal decks, which were previously good against your threat light deck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hordeling Outburst would have the same result as far as C Doom(a bunch of 1 power creatures)...it still hits our dragons and doesn't even take the bolt to the face from Regent. C doom is king against Tall Decks.
With Rally so popular(gumming up the ground game), having fewer 1/1 flyers may be better than having more 1/1 goblins. That's why my version ditches H Walker for Z Cutthroat so if the goblins die, I get value from them beyond swinging in with a dashed Kolaghan. But if I went with T Engineer, I'd bring back Walker for the synergy.
Either way, I think the way Tom Ross lost to the Bant Company deck is more indicative of mana screw than the deck. Our deck loves to face a bunch of 3 toughness creatures. That said, I think the Rally matchup(especially with Ross' sideboard) was not good but he squeaked by only to loose to a deck he seemed favored to win.
But, take it all in now because both the Rally and Dragon deck have 3 months to live.
PKN and Thopter Engineer shore up the MU against Crackling Doom and removal decks, which were previously good against your threat light deck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hordeling Outburst would have the same result as far as C Doom(a bunch of 1 power creatures)...it still hits our dragons and doesn't even take the bolt to the face from Regent. C doom is king against Tall Decks.
I mean, yeah, but Outburst is pretty obviously anemic unless you're recasting it with Goblin Darkdwellers. Evasion will usually trump no-evasion. Plus a 1/3 blocks 1/1s pretty well. Outburst just plays to the board poorly right now.
I spent the morning comparing the lists as well, Kpal and honestly, was not really crazy about the direction the meta is pushing the deck right now.
I think the absence of goblin dark-dwellers is just that the deck is already fairly heavy on the 4 and 5 mana spot.
Almost all of those top 32 R/B Dragon decks had PK&N if I recall. So this increased the 4 drop slot by 2 to 4 cards depending on how many copies they were playing, compared to past versions.
Also using the Thopter Engineer which was an extra 3 mana spot in all but 1 of the decks, as you noted which did not run Flamewake Phoenix.
So the deck was more mana hungry in the 3 and 4 mana slots, which is my guess as to why you saw it omitted and again as you noted, 1 deck didnt even use Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury.
My guess is that as the meta changes, you will still see GDD included in the MD and/or SB at times, as the card just gives the deck gas, in mid to later games. But as everything else, meta dictates.
I'm not a big fan of this current look of the deck, and I think I want to try to take the deck in another direction.
I am needing to decide on what deck to play in the next few weeks, and I want it to be this one, but as it is, I'm just not feeling it. Will post what I am kicking around in a bit, and share for anyone interested.
This will be my game day deck of some variant. However, it will most likely not be a token based list. Im not feeling it either. PKN is great in this deck. But I think I would still rather have G D-D and bring back a Firecraft or Draconic Roar from the graveyard.
Also, 3x KSF seems fairly legit if not warranted. I am still a fan of the low costed speed and burn variant lists.
OH man, I just got my but kicked over and over in MTGO with my dragon deck. It's weird, I've largely been successful but tonite, it seamed like my ops would just draw the perfect card at the perfect time. I even lost to a super friends deck. Let me tell you, 4-5 warrior tokens from secure the waste then then drop a sorin next turn to give them plus 2 and life link is devastating to this deck. Unless you have a Koz Return ready to fire, it's tough.
Also, it seams I lost whenever someone casts painful truths.
I think a good sideboard card is read the bones which IMO is superior to painful truths because u scry twice before drawing. With truths, it's blind chance. Could be wrong.
Sorry, just wanted to post this here so no one else gives up. This deck is the underdog in MTG right now that people begrudgingly give respect to because it can and does win but it seams if it's not Abzan, Rally or Atarka, it can't be good in some people's minds. I think it will continue to put up good results because unless you have an immediate answer for T 4 Regent T 5 Kolaghan, it's likely over but admittedly without that 1 2 punch, our deck lacks resiliency. Not saying it can't win at all without them, but the deck is built to facilitate that combo.
Also, on a side note: alot of people wonder why some are running as much as 4 KSF when he's legendary...pretty simple...#1, trangress the mind eats our deck alive(and now Thought Knot Seer) and having multiples is sometimes necessary and #2, D Roar is IMO right up there with Siege Rhino as far as efficiency. It's like having 2 bolts in one card with a dragon in hand or play but over costed burn without them. It helps soften up our Opp for the 1 2 punch of Regent and KSF. Just get them to 12 then let the dragons bring it home.
OH man, I just got my but kicked over and over in MTGO with my dragon deck. It's weird, I've largely been successful but tonite, it seamed like my ops would just draw the perfect card at the perfect time. I even lost to a super friends deck. Let me tell you, 4-5 warrior tokens from secure the waste then then drop a sorin next turn to give them plus 2 and life link is devastating to this deck. Unless you have a Koz Return ready to fire, it's tough.
Also, it seams I lost whenever someone casts painful truths.
I think a good sideboard card is read the bones which IMO is superior to painful truths because u scry twice before drawing. With truths, it's blind chance. Could be wrong.
Sorry, just wanted to post this here so no one else gives up. This deck is the underdog in MTG right now that people begrudgingly give respect to because it can and does win but it seams if it's not Abzan, Rally or Atarka, it can't be good in some people's minds. I think it will continue to put up good results because unless you have an immediate answer for T 4 Regent T 5 Kolaghan, it's likely over but admittedly without that 1 2 punch, our deck lacks resiliency. Not saying it can't win at all without them, but the deck is built to facilitate that combo.
Also, on a side note: alot of people wonder why some are running as much as 4 KSF when he's legendary...pretty simple...#1, trangress the mind eats our deck alive(and now Thought Knot Seer) and having multiples is sometimes necessary and #2, D Roar is IMO right up there with Siege Rhino as far as efficiency. It's like having 2 bolts in one card with a dragon in hand or play but over costed burn without them. It helps soften up our Opp for the 1 2 punch of Regent and KSF. Just get them to 12 then let the dragons bring it home.
What does your list look like? And what were some of your problem match ups?
It was the non aggro version(i.e. no swiftspear or zurgo)version but with zulaport instead of H Walker. 3 KSF, 4 Regents. A duress and Trans the Mind. 4 D Roar etc.
Honestly, I think it was just bad luck. Even the normally good matchups like Atarka Red and U/R Prowess I lost to since I have all my removal but could not draw the dragons in time...as much as I downplay the important of Regent into KSF, that is usually how this deck wins.
Admittedly I am Johnny player and like the feeling of tweaking a deck. Rather than that, I liked how Tom Ross's deck played so I'm basically copying that now, putting the Walkers back in, taking out the Cutthroats, adding in 4 Thopter engineer(taking out hordeling outburst) and adding another Pia and Kara. Rather than the 4th KSF, I am trying Sarkhan as a 1 of to maybe go phoenix into regent, into Sarkhan into KSF but other than that and a crux of fate mainboard, it's now Tom Ross' deck. Also, now that the deck is more top heavy, i did 26 lands like Ross as well.
Hello friends, I've been on Mardu Dragons for the past while and recently decided to try dropping the white to try and get the deck to be more aggressive. That being said, I'm pretty ignorant of all the match ups and strategies as of right now, especially since the loss of white means Aggressive decks become scarier since I don't have seekers/soulfires to gain life. Can anyone offer some tips or maybe critique my decklist? Here's what I have right now
As for card choices, I'm running Dragon Fodder as a replacement for Hangarback since I don't have any and my interpretation of that card's role here is to be a good efficient blocker against aggressive decks and/or the ability to go wide to deal damage, so Fodder seems a good replacement. The Sarkhan is also to replace a PKN I lack, plus it's a way to hit things in the air, which I seem rather light on. Hordeling is also here because I don't have the thopter engineers to go in that slot, which is a shame because they looked really strong in Tom Ross' deck. The 25 lands over 26 is a concession to the fact that In my Mardu version which had an even higher curve, I flooded out in almost every game and I simply ran out of gas before I could get anything done a lot of the time. I started trying to side out a land last week and noticed no real issues, so I figure it should be an okay tradeoff.
Overall, I'm a bit nervous about this list, since it doesn't seem to be much faster than what I had before but with less security against aggressive deck because I have no lifegain. I suppose all the goblin tokens can compensate for that to some extent. I'm also concerned about getting out tempo'd by Collected Company style decks, because I remember simply not having the resources to compete on a 1 for 1 basis with decks like that before. I kind of want to tune it to be more aggressive like the earlier versions that ran Swiftspear and Bloodsoaked champions, but I feel like that's a bad route to go right now, sicne I'll just get out valued by more aggressive decks like Atarka red. Any advice?
It was the non aggro version(i.e. no swiftspear or zurgo)version but with zulaport instead of H Walker. 3 KSF, 4 Regents. A duress and Trans the Mind. 4 D Roar etc.
Honestly, I think it was just bad luck. Even the normally good matchups like Atarka Red and U/R Prowess I lost to since I have all my removal but could not draw the dragons in time...as much as I downplay the important of Regent into KSF, that is usually how this deck wins.
Admittedly I am Johnny player and like the feeling of tweaking a deck. Rather than that, I liked how Tom Ross's deck played so I'm basically copying that now, putting the Walkers back in, taking out the Cutthroats, adding in 4 Thopter engineer(taking out hordeling outburst) and adding another Pia and Kara. Rather than the 4th KSF, I am trying Sarkhan as a 1 of to maybe go phoenix into regent, into Sarkhan into KSF but other than that and a crux of fate mainboard, it's now Tom Ross' deck. Also, now that the deck is more top heavy, i did 26 lands like Ross as well.
Variance is part of the game. Let us know how your changes work out.
Hello friends, I've been on Mardu Dragons for the past while and recently decided to try dropping the white to try and get the deck to be more aggressive. That being said, I'm pretty ignorant of all the match ups and strategies as of right now, especially since the loss of white means Aggressive decks become scarier since I don't have seekers/soulfires to gain life. Can anyone offer some tips or maybe critique my decklist? Here's what I have right now
As for card choices, I'm running Dragon Fodder as a replacement for Hangarback since I don't have any and my interpretation of that card's role here is to be a good efficient blocker against aggressive decks and/or the ability to go wide to deal damage, so Fodder seems a good replacement. The Sarkhan is also to replace a PKN I lack, plus it's a way to hit things in the air, which I seem rather light on. Hordeling is also here because I don't have the thopter engineers to go in that slot, which is a shame because they looked really strong in Tom Ross' deck. The 25 lands over 26 is a concession to the fact that In my Mardu version which had an even higher curve, I flooded out in almost every game and I simply ran out of gas before I could get anything done a lot of the time. I started trying to side out a land last week and noticed no real issues, so I figure it should be an okay tradeoff.
Overall, I'm a bit nervous about this list, since it doesn't seem to be much faster than what I had before but with less security against aggressive deck because I have no lifegain. I suppose all the goblin tokens can compensate for that to some extent. I'm also concerned about getting out tempo'd by Collected Company style decks, because I remember simply not having the resources to compete on a 1 for 1 basis with decks like that before. I kind of want to tune it to be more aggressive like the earlier versions that ran Swiftspear and Bloodsoaked champions, but I feel like that's a bad route to go right now, sicne I'll just get out valued by more aggressive decks like Atarka red. Any advice?
If you are looking for life gain, you could try Foul-tongue Invocation. Maybe one in the side board.
R/b Dragons can definitely beat and compete with Atarka Red. My aggro variant certainly has and I never cast any sweeper or life gainers in those match-ups. I have them for those match-ups but couldnt cast them because I didnt draw in one game and another I was stuck on two lands the whole time. But it is a winnable match up.
When you are on the draw against them, lean more towards the control side. Keeping their Abotts and Swiftspears off the board. Maindecking 4x Wild Slash helps.
I also have 2x Murderous Cut main and 2x Ultimate Price side. When it appears they are preparing their big combo attack, hold back your Cut or Price and leave mana open. This has worked for me blowing out a Become Immense + Temur Battlerageed Swiftspear.
Ironically even this match up is two aggro decks, they tend to go almost to time because of 1 for 1 removal and a lot of bluffing
Hello friends, I've been on Mardu Dragons for the past while and recently decided to try dropping the white to try and get the deck to be more aggressive. That being said, I'm pretty ignorant of all the match ups and strategies as of right now, especially since the loss of white means Aggressive decks become scarier since I don't have seekers/soulfires to gain life. Can anyone offer some tips or maybe critique my decklist? Here's what I have right now
As for card choices, I'm running Dragon Fodder as a replacement for Hangarback since I don't have any and my interpretation of that card's role here is to be a good efficient blocker against aggressive decks and/or the ability to go wide to deal damage, so Fodder seems a good replacement. The Sarkhan is also to replace a PKN I lack, plus it's a way to hit things in the air, which I seem rather light on. Hordeling is also here because I don't have the thopter engineers to go in that slot, which is a shame because they looked really strong in Tom Ross' deck. The 25 lands over 26 is a concession to the fact that In my Mardu version which had an even higher curve, I flooded out in almost every game and I simply ran out of gas before I could get anything done a lot of the time. I started trying to side out a land last week and noticed no real issues, so I figure it should be an okay tradeoff.
Overall, I'm a bit nervous about this list, since it doesn't seem to be much faster than what I had before but with less security against aggressive deck because I have no lifegain. I suppose all the goblin tokens can compensate for that to some extent. I'm also concerned about getting out tempo'd by Collected Company style decks, because I remember simply not having the resources to compete on a 1 for 1 basis with decks like that before. I kind of want to tune it to be more aggressive like the earlier versions that ran Swiftspear and Bloodsoaked champions, but I feel like that's a bad route to go right now, sicne I'll just get out valued by more aggressive decks like Atarka red. Any advice?
Considering your card limitations, I would consider 4 Zulaports instead of the 4 Dragon fodders. They act as road blocks and with a hordeling outburst, really add up the incremental damage and life gain.
I also would not abandon Mardu Dragons. Seeker into Soulfire into Regent in KSF is pretty good. The best feeling is a dragon enhanced D Roar with a soulfire out. I played that deck and since there is so much life gain, 3 Painful truths mainboard is an easy addition to help smooth out any missing spots in your card draw.
Self Inflicting Wound Good against Abzan decks and Mardu Green decks which seem to be on the upswing. infinite obliteration Lately everyone is hating on this card because it is not a magical cure all. It is still a solid removal card which can net you 4 copies of one of your opponents most crushing bruisers! All for 3 mana, plus your able to look through their hand and library. Let me remove 4 rhinos the turn before he can play them?! Deal. This card GREATLY assists against the ramp decks. And shuts down the eldrazi displacer combo decks which are going to start popping up everywhere. Grasp of Darkness Thinking a few of these on SB for additional help if need be in spot removal. I feel that Self Inflicting Wound and the next card is a better removal set to cover current meta. Rending Volley Powerful spot removal against white and blue creatures. This and Self Inflicting Wound pretty much covers the removal for most difficult decks for us. Seismic Rupture Potential sweeper that all of my land based creatures can live through, can pop Hangarback walker for me as well. In against Atarka Red/Prowess. Faster than Crux. Sidi's Faithful Simple, cheap, tempo disrupter which can buy us time. Can sacrifice itself, or be used to pop a HBW. Can clear the way to let the dragons through and finish game. Learn from the Past Best defense other than hitting Rally fast and hard, that I feel we have in that match up.Casting it "in response" to them attempting to cast a rally, would be sweet. Dispel is a consideration disdainful stroke another thought Neutralizing Blast good all purpose instant counter - this I think should find a place in the SB for sure. Negate - well its negate, nuff said.
So on the Main Deck - I think I am sticking with Dragonlord's Servant. It is just a good solid card which was designed for this deck.Our win condition is to win with dragons. This speeds up or deck tremendously. It has 3 toughness - which in todays meta game is a really big deal, so it can be an early game blocker so slow down the aggro decks and actually survive a lot of times. And in a pinch it can occasionaly deal some extra damage. For years everyone has accepted the value of mana dorks. Well this is our mana dork is how I think of it. It speeds up our deck increasing our threat.
I had been saying I wanted to go more on the aggressive side. Many versions are not running Monastery Swiftspear but if this card comes down on t1, all I know is the odds of us winning rise in those games considerably. I also like Lightning Berserker as another t1 threat. However, he is to always and as much as possible only be used as DASH, so I prefer him over Zurgo because A) I can 1 mana dash him, and I want a t1 threat as many games as possible. B) As game goes on, and opponent forgets about him, he can be dashed and do a considewrable amount of damage, and C) he can actually be used as a blocker, if I choose to hard cast him, and Zurgo can not, and I am sick of losing games because Zurgo can not chump block.
I am including 1 MD copy of Kalitas Traitor of Ghet (thats a hell of a title!) He is a 4th turn body to drop if I dont have a dragon, or if it isnt the ideal time to play Thunderbreak Regent With him in play, we at least have some chance of life gain, which is refreshing. And we need answers to rally - and he doesnt wreck rally by any means, but he is something they have to work around. Hopefully buying us a few extra turns to hit them high, where they are weakest. This guy is filling the spot in some ways, as Pia and Kiran Nalaar was filling in some versions. As he gets us a 2/2 zombie for each opponents creature we kill! And he gets us life gain. All with a 3/4 body. He is certainly a thing. I am considering dropping 1 HBW to add a 2nd to the deck possibly. And double black on t4 is not that big of a deal for the most part.
I have been chomping at the bit for card draw, I am satisfied with what I have in the main deck now, which has really helped to keep things moving. I am liking anticpate a bunch. Depending on what I settle on for my SB, I may adjust mana base to have an additional blue source. If I do, I am thinking about increasing their count to 3 or 4, and lowering the count on read the bones. I love the instant speed, allowing me to leave mana open for opponents turn, so they have to respect possibility of spot removal, or possibly after game 1, counter magic - and then if I do not have or do not play one of those, I can cast, and feed my hand with what I need for my next turn.And I dont lose life for playing the card.
grasp of darkness was in all of the r/b dragon deck lists for SCG COL. It is a great card, love it being instant speed. But I am agreeing with KPAL who was questioning the wisdom of BB casting cost card. Not so much for the casting cost though, as much as for when I look at the removal we already use MD, and when comparing likely meta matchups - I just do not think it is needed in the main deck, and for SB I think Self Inflicted Wound and/ or [/card]rending volley[/card] are better compliments to bring in to go along with at the least draconic roar as no match ups does that come out. As long as the SB has room to allow for running copies of both of those. If it gets cramped for space, then I think the need for running those in SB increases.
Lastly, my mana base has been working well. I play 1 less land than most of the other decks seem to play, but that is another benefit imo of running [/card]Dragonlord's Servant[/card] as well. I have been pleased with running 1 copy of Haven of the Spirit Dragon which is a card I avoided for awhile, as I didnt want to get in a bind because of it. But only running 1 copy - it has not hurt me, and I like that it is in the deck to give me some possibility of being able to save 1 of my dragons if need be.
I think I would add another 1 more Polluted Delta, and 1 more sunken hollow That will be mianly determined on the SB I decide on, and how blue it looks.
But over all I am happy with what I am playing currently. I feel I have answered the issues that I have had with the deck over the last month or so.
1. Its capable of having more of an early game presence
2. Still has the same win condition, but is capable of going faster
3. Great spot removal (10 main deck spells) WITH MAIN DECK sweeper ability (which I think is absolutely critical) and I did not include it, but I do think another crux of fate will be in the SB.
4. Finally has some good card draw that does not hurt the deck
5. Not a lot - but we do have some token generators with HBW and Kalitas and at least some potential for life gain!
What I have found out about Goblin dark-dwellers in this deck is that there is a conflict with Murderous Cut often times delving away the spells that I would like to recycle. Forerunner of slaughter has put some good work usually coming in with haste on turn 3. Two of these with a dragon his hard hitting.
Interesting call on Dragonlord's servant. Turn 3 Thunderbreak Regent?! Holy smoke! The servant is probably a big lightning rod. LIke the idea though and maybe I need to try it.
You are also not running any Exquisite Firecraft. Man that card has won me a few games.
Even though Monastery swiftspear is great starter, how do you feel about it as a late game top deck?
Do you still find Hangarback useful and relevant?
Also taking your idea to main deck a single Crux of Fate. That card was designed for Rakdos Dragons
How is Grasp of Darkness better than Roast in a red heavy deck?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Roasthandles Rhino though...
Watching Tom Ross play R/B Dragons at the SCG this weekend, Grasp of Darkness certainly shined in the match they broadcast.
Im waiting to see how he finishes up, and also to see his deck list. I don't know if it is a 4 of, but I plan on adding at least 2 MD.
Wow, traditionally, Ramp is a tough match up for mid range because if they can hit their end game around turn 6, they just outclass us,but it's feast or famine. If they miss one ramp spell or don't draw their few end game cards, they just have land.
I've tried 2 KSF and 1 DLK and always found that extra mana to be tough. Granted the haste, giving guys haste etc and the second paragraph helps but that mana has been tough. Though that was a Mardu dragon deck. R/B Dragons may be better but what this deck wants to do is T3 Outburst or Phoenix, T4 Regent, T5 Dash KSF and win or get the enemy super low that a target to Regent is lethal.
DL Kolaghan is a great top deck in a grindy match up because they likely have a kill spell in their grave yard and can't afford to take 10 damage. If you do want to add more top end, Sarkhan makes a better choice IMO since he can spot remove or close the game as a Dragon.
I would say 3 KSF and 4 Regent is the sweet spot IMO. Save the extra spot for Goblin Dark Dwellers to recast Hordeling outburst.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Now Top 4. Thopter engineer Is looking like a boss with with Pia and Kira. Perfect example of how this deck wins with no Kolaghan. Granted, it's harder, but can do it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hordeling Outburst would have the same result as far as C Doom(a bunch of 1 power creatures)...it still hits our dragons and doesn't even take the bolt to the face from Regent. C doom is king against Tall Decks.
With Rally so popular(gumming up the ground game), having fewer 1/1 flyers may be better than having more 1/1 goblins. That's why my version ditches H Walker for Z Cutthroat so if the goblins die, I get value from them beyond swinging in with a dashed Kolaghan. But if I went with T Engineer, I'd bring back Walker for the synergy.
Either way, I think the way Tom Ross lost to the Bant Company deck is more indicative of mana screw than the deck. Our deck loves to face a bunch of 3 toughness creatures. That said, I think the Rally matchup(especially with Ross' sideboard) was not good but he squeaked by only to loose to a deck he seemed favored to win.
But, take it all in now because both the Rally and Dragon deck have 3 months to live.
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Thopter Engineer
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Lands (26)
4 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Polluted Delta
3 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Draconic Roar
2 Fiery Impulse
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Murderous Cut
2 Duress
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Crux of Fate
4 Self-Inflicted Wound
4 Transgress the Mind
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I mean, yeah, but Outburst is pretty obviously anemic unless you're recasting it with Goblin Darkdwellers. Evasion will usually trump no-evasion. Plus a 1/3 blocks 1/1s pretty well. Outburst just plays to the board poorly right now.
Five R/b Dragon lists made top 32
Four of those lists ran 4x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. One list ran zero Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
Four of those lsits ran some number of Flamewake Phoenix One list ran zero Flamewake Phoenix
All lists ran some number of Hangarback Walker, Grasp of Darkness, Duress, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar main board.
None of the lists ran Goblin Dark-dwellers.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I think the absence of goblin dark-dwellers is just that the deck is already fairly heavy on the 4 and 5 mana spot.
Almost all of those top 32 R/B Dragon decks had PK&N if I recall. So this increased the 4 drop slot by 2 to 4 cards depending on how many copies they were playing, compared to past versions.
Also using the Thopter Engineer which was an extra 3 mana spot in all but 1 of the decks, as you noted which did not run Flamewake Phoenix.
So the deck was more mana hungry in the 3 and 4 mana slots, which is my guess as to why you saw it omitted and again as you noted, 1 deck didnt even use Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury.
My guess is that as the meta changes, you will still see GDD included in the MD and/or SB at times, as the card just gives the deck gas, in mid to later games. But as everything else, meta dictates.
I'm not a big fan of this current look of the deck, and I think I want to try to take the deck in another direction.
I am needing to decide on what deck to play in the next few weeks, and I want it to be this one, but as it is, I'm just not feeling it. Will post what I am kicking around in a bit, and share for anyone interested.
Also, 3x KSF seems fairly legit if not warranted. I am still a fan of the low costed speed and burn variant lists.
Post away your ideas.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Also, it seams I lost whenever someone casts painful truths.
I think a good sideboard card is read the bones which IMO is superior to painful truths because u scry twice before drawing. With truths, it's blind chance. Could be wrong.
Sorry, just wanted to post this here so no one else gives up. This deck is the underdog in MTG right now that people begrudgingly give respect to because it can and does win but it seams if it's not Abzan, Rally or Atarka, it can't be good in some people's minds. I think it will continue to put up good results because unless you have an immediate answer for T 4 Regent T 5 Kolaghan, it's likely over but admittedly without that 1 2 punch, our deck lacks resiliency. Not saying it can't win at all without them, but the deck is built to facilitate that combo.
Also, on a side note: alot of people wonder why some are running as much as 4 KSF when he's legendary...pretty simple...#1, trangress the mind eats our deck alive(and now Thought Knot Seer) and having multiples is sometimes necessary and #2, D Roar is IMO right up there with Siege Rhino as far as efficiency. It's like having 2 bolts in one card with a dragon in hand or play but over costed burn without them. It helps soften up our Opp for the 1 2 punch of Regent and KSF. Just get them to 12 then let the dragons bring it home.
What does your list look like? And what were some of your problem match ups?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Honestly, I think it was just bad luck. Even the normally good matchups like Atarka Red and U/R Prowess I lost to since I have all my removal but could not draw the dragons in time...as much as I downplay the important of Regent into KSF, that is usually how this deck wins.
Admittedly I am Johnny player and like the feeling of tweaking a deck. Rather than that, I liked how Tom Ross's deck played so I'm basically copying that now, putting the Walkers back in, taking out the Cutthroats, adding in 4 Thopter engineer(taking out hordeling outburst) and adding another Pia and Kara. Rather than the 4th KSF, I am trying Sarkhan as a 1 of to maybe go phoenix into regent, into Sarkhan into KSF but other than that and a crux of fate mainboard, it's now Tom Ross' deck. Also, now that the deck is more top heavy, i did 26 lands like Ross as well.
4x Flamewake Phoenix
4x Thunderbreak Regent
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4x Kolaghan, The Storm's Fury
Spells
1x Wild Slash
2x Fiery Impulse
2x Duress
3x Roast
4x Draconic Roar
4x Dragon Fodder
4x Hordeling Outburst
1x Murderous Cut
1x Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker
4x Smouldering Marsh
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
6x Mountain
1x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4x Swamp
1x Complete Disregard
1x Self-Inflicted Wound
2x Radiant Flames
2x Crux of Fate
1x Infinite Obliteration
2x Duress
1x Roast
2x Foul Tongue Invocation
2x Outpost Siege
As for card choices, I'm running Dragon Fodder as a replacement for Hangarback since I don't have any and my interpretation of that card's role here is to be a good efficient blocker against aggressive decks and/or the ability to go wide to deal damage, so Fodder seems a good replacement. The Sarkhan is also to replace a PKN I lack, plus it's a way to hit things in the air, which I seem rather light on. Hordeling is also here because I don't have the thopter engineers to go in that slot, which is a shame because they looked really strong in Tom Ross' deck. The 25 lands over 26 is a concession to the fact that In my Mardu version which had an even higher curve, I flooded out in almost every game and I simply ran out of gas before I could get anything done a lot of the time. I started trying to side out a land last week and noticed no real issues, so I figure it should be an okay tradeoff.
Overall, I'm a bit nervous about this list, since it doesn't seem to be much faster than what I had before but with less security against aggressive deck because I have no lifegain. I suppose all the goblin tokens can compensate for that to some extent. I'm also concerned about getting out tempo'd by Collected Company style decks, because I remember simply not having the resources to compete on a 1 for 1 basis with decks like that before. I kind of want to tune it to be more aggressive like the earlier versions that ran Swiftspear and Bloodsoaked champions, but I feel like that's a bad route to go right now, sicne I'll just get out valued by more aggressive decks like Atarka red. Any advice?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
R/b Dragons can definitely beat and compete with Atarka Red. My aggro variant certainly has and I never cast any sweeper or life gainers in those match-ups. I have them for those match-ups but couldnt cast them because I didnt draw in one game and another I was stuck on two lands the whole time. But it is a winnable match up.
When you are on the draw against them, lean more towards the control side. Keeping their Abotts and Swiftspears off the board. Maindecking 4x Wild Slash helps.
I also have 2x Murderous Cut main and 2x Ultimate Price side. When it appears they are preparing their big combo attack, hold back your Cut or Price and leave mana open. This has worked for me blowing out a Become Immense + Temur Battlerageed Swiftspear.
Ironically even this match up is two aggro decks, they tend to go almost to time because of 1 for 1 removal and a lot of bluffing
C Long Live Eldrazi C
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Considering your card limitations, I would consider 4 Zulaports instead of the 4 Dragon fodders. They act as road blocks and with a hordeling outburst, really add up the incremental damage and life gain.
I also would not abandon Mardu Dragons. Seeker into Soulfire into Regent in KSF is pretty good. The best feeling is a dragon enhanced D Roar with a soulfire out. I played that deck and since there is so much life gain, 3 Painful truths mainboard is an easy addition to help smooth out any missing spots in your card draw.
Creatures: 20
Monastery Swiftspear x4
Lightning Berserker x1
Dragonlord's Servant x4
Hangarback Walker x4
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet x1
Thunderbreak Regent x4
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury x2
Non Creatures: 16
Fiery Impulse x4
Draconic Roar x4
Murderous Cut x2
Anticipate x2
Read the Bones x3
Crux of Fate x1
Lands: 24
Mountain x6
Bloodstained Mire x4
Wooded Foothills x4
Smoldering Marsh x4
Polluted Delta x2
Sunken Hollow x2
Haven of the Spirit Dragon x1
Swamp x1
Possible Side Board Inclusions:
Self Inflicting Wound Good against Abzan decks and Mardu Green decks which seem to be on the upswing.
infinite obliteration Lately everyone is hating on this card because it is not a magical cure all. It is still a solid removal card which can net you 4 copies of one of your opponents most crushing bruisers! All for 3 mana, plus your able to look through their hand and library. Let me remove 4 rhinos the turn before he can play them?! Deal. This card GREATLY assists against the ramp decks. And shuts down the eldrazi displacer combo decks which are going to start popping up everywhere.
Grasp of Darkness Thinking a few of these on SB for additional help if need be in spot removal. I feel that Self Inflicting Wound and the next card is a better removal set to cover current meta.
Rending Volley Powerful spot removal against white and blue creatures. This and Self Inflicting Wound pretty much covers the removal for most difficult decks for us.
Seismic Rupture Potential sweeper that all of my land based creatures can live through, can pop Hangarback walker for me as well. In against Atarka Red/Prowess. Faster than Crux.
Sidi's Faithful Simple, cheap, tempo disrupter which can buy us time. Can sacrifice itself, or be used to pop a HBW. Can clear the way to let the dragons through and finish game.
Learn from the Past Best defense other than hitting Rally fast and hard, that I feel we have in that match up.Casting it "in response" to them attempting to cast a rally, would be sweet.
Dispel is a consideration
disdainful stroke another thought
Neutralizing Blast good all purpose instant counter - this I think should find a place in the SB for sure.
Negate - well its negate, nuff said.
So on the Main Deck - I think I am sticking with Dragonlord's Servant. It is just a good solid card which was designed for this deck.Our win condition is to win with dragons. This speeds up or deck tremendously. It has 3 toughness - which in todays meta game is a really big deal, so it can be an early game blocker so slow down the aggro decks and actually survive a lot of times. And in a pinch it can occasionaly deal some extra damage. For years everyone has accepted the value of mana dorks. Well this is our mana dork is how I think of it. It speeds up our deck increasing our threat.
I had been saying I wanted to go more on the aggressive side. Many versions are not running Monastery Swiftspear but if this card comes down on t1, all I know is the odds of us winning rise in those games considerably. I also like Lightning Berserker as another t1 threat. However, he is to always and as much as possible only be used as DASH, so I prefer him over Zurgo because A) I can 1 mana dash him, and I want a t1 threat as many games as possible. B) As game goes on, and opponent forgets about him, he can be dashed and do a considewrable amount of damage, and C) he can actually be used as a blocker, if I choose to hard cast him, and Zurgo can not, and I am sick of losing games because Zurgo can not chump block.
I am including 1 MD copy of Kalitas Traitor of Ghet (thats a hell of a title!) He is a 4th turn body to drop if I dont have a dragon, or if it isnt the ideal time to play Thunderbreak Regent With him in play, we at least have some chance of life gain, which is refreshing. And we need answers to rally - and he doesnt wreck rally by any means, but he is something they have to work around. Hopefully buying us a few extra turns to hit them high, where they are weakest. This guy is filling the spot in some ways, as Pia and Kiran Nalaar was filling in some versions. As he gets us a 2/2 zombie for each opponents creature we kill! And he gets us life gain. All with a 3/4 body. He is certainly a thing. I am considering dropping 1 HBW to add a 2nd to the deck possibly. And double black on t4 is not that big of a deal for the most part.
I have been chomping at the bit for card draw, I am satisfied with what I have in the main deck now, which has really helped to keep things moving. I am liking anticpate a bunch. Depending on what I settle on for my SB, I may adjust mana base to have an additional blue source. If I do, I am thinking about increasing their count to 3 or 4, and lowering the count on read the bones. I love the instant speed, allowing me to leave mana open for opponents turn, so they have to respect possibility of spot removal, or possibly after game 1, counter magic - and then if I do not have or do not play one of those, I can cast, and feed my hand with what I need for my next turn.And I dont lose life for playing the card.
grasp of darkness was in all of the r/b dragon deck lists for SCG COL. It is a great card, love it being instant speed. But I am agreeing with KPAL who was questioning the wisdom of BB casting cost card. Not so much for the casting cost though, as much as for when I look at the removal we already use MD, and when comparing likely meta matchups - I just do not think it is needed in the main deck, and for SB I think Self Inflicted Wound and/ or [/card]rending volley[/card] are better compliments to bring in to go along with at the least draconic roar as no match ups does that come out. As long as the SB has room to allow for running copies of both of those. If it gets cramped for space, then I think the need for running those in SB increases.
Lastly, my mana base has been working well. I play 1 less land than most of the other decks seem to play, but that is another benefit imo of running [/card]Dragonlord's Servant[/card] as well. I have been pleased with running 1 copy of Haven of the Spirit Dragon which is a card I avoided for awhile, as I didnt want to get in a bind because of it. But only running 1 copy - it has not hurt me, and I like that it is in the deck to give me some possibility of being able to save 1 of my dragons if need be.
I think I would add another 1 more Polluted Delta, and 1 more sunken hollow That will be mianly determined on the SB I decide on, and how blue it looks.
But over all I am happy with what I am playing currently. I feel I have answered the issues that I have had with the deck over the last month or so.
1. Its capable of having more of an early game presence
2. Still has the same win condition, but is capable of going faster
3. Great spot removal (10 main deck spells) WITH MAIN DECK sweeper ability (which I think is absolutely critical) and I did not include it, but I do think another crux of fate will be in the SB.
4. Finally has some good card draw that does not hurt the deck
5. Not a lot - but we do have some token generators with HBW and Kalitas and at least some potential for life gain!
Very open to suggestions and thoughts.
Interesting that you are now running fiery impulse over wild slash. That is one of the changes I have made too.
Also Kalitas, traitor of Ghet is a great choice.
What I have found out about Goblin dark-dwellers in this deck is that there is a conflict with Murderous Cut often times delving away the spells that I would like to recycle.
Forerunner of slaughter has put some good work usually coming in with haste on turn 3. Two of these with a dragon his hard hitting.
Interesting call on Dragonlord's servant. Turn 3 Thunderbreak Regent?! Holy smoke! The servant is probably a big lightning rod. LIke the idea though and maybe I need to try it.
You are also not running any Exquisite Firecraft. Man that card has won me a few games.
Even though Monastery swiftspear is great starter, how do you feel about it as a late game top deck?
Do you still find Hangarback useful and relevant?
Also taking your idea to main deck a single Crux of Fate. That card was designed for Rakdos Dragons
C Long Live Eldrazi C