They are, in a few game tests I have made. Here's my current list (it's my secondary deck and I have yet to take it to a FNM, so it is not optimized, especially the sideboard):
I built this deck to be a little more aggressive than the standard list, for example I run Dragon Whisperer as my two-drop over Hangerback for the evasion and aggro. I might take out a couple of creatures for some more removal though. The sideboard's a little weird too, but everything has a reason to be there. Tainted Remedy is probably the weirdest of them, but between Siege Rhino and Jeskai decks lifegain is pretty prevalent in my meta.
I built this deck to be a little more aggressive than the standard list, for example I run Dragon Whisperer as my two-drop over Hangerback for the evasion and aggro. I might take out a couple of creatures for some more removal though. The sideboard's a little weird too, but everything has a reason to be there. Tainted Remedy is probably the weirdest of them, but between Siege Rhino and Jeskai decks lifegain is pretty prevalent in my meta.
Five rounds losing to Jeskai Control and a very close match up against Temur white.
Defeated a mono blue aggro deck with lots of counter spells, the new Jeskai prowess with stormchaser mage, and G/x Eldrazi Ramp.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers seems like it could be excellent in this deck as a 2-3 of. We have the land count to support 5-drops, and also have some great targets to get value off of like Outburst, Roar, and potentially Firecraft.
I still only have 1 goblin dark-dwellers but have began including it in the build and testing it. Hasnt dissapointed and when my other 3 come in from puca trades I will push the count up to 2.
I have been following the ATL coverage fairly closely, and have been disappointed to not seen this deck covered so far. I was really interested to see this deck played at a higher level and see what new innovations from Oath would be tried out.
I like it quite a bit. It's dealt a lot of damage and won me a couple of games due to the lower number of fliers seeing play at the moment. I can still very much see running Hangarback instead to buy a couple of early game turns, but if you want to go more aggressive I'd try it out for yourself.
Forgot to mention I'm also looking at cutting the basic swamps because I don't need black before turn 3.
I like it quite a bit. It's dealt a lot of damage and won me a couple of games due to the lower number of fliers seeing play at the moment. I can still very much see running Hangarback instead to buy a couple of early game turns, but if you want to go more aggressive I'd try it out for yourself.
Forgot to mention I'm also looking at cutting the basic swamps because I don't need black before turn 3.
I will give the dragon whisperer's another shot, as your correct the format is changing and making a move to being more aggro could be the way to go. Thanks for the suggestions!
(coming back to edit my response to elaborate a bit more on something)
Just came back to add another reason I have been sticking with the HBW is first, the competive versions I have seen place have all been using HBW, I think without fail - and that certainly counts for something. Also - imo this deck type suffers from 2 main draw backs. A) no card draw. B) although amazing spot removal, no board sweepers.
So in some of my most recent versions I have been main boarding 2 or 3 radiant flames . My thinking being that it answers 1 of those problems to some extent, and since it actually has very little effect playing radiant flames for 2 (black and red mana ) the only creatures in my deck list that are hurt by it are possibly HBW (if it has'nt been pumped up by the time it is needed to play Radiant Flames and flamwake phoenix which can be brought back from graveyard.
Main decking board sweepers I feel "should" give this deck even more depth against some of the decks which I feel are our poorest match ups. Token decks, rally decks in particular.
Interested in others thoughts, as since I have made these changes to my version of the deck, life has kept me from doing as much play testing as I would like to get a better feel if I am on the right track or not. February an event is coming to Houston, and I want to take this deck and give it a go there, so will try to get hot and heavy play testing this deck and fine tuning it in the upcoming weeks.
boiling earth Has been a card I had always kept on SB as it can handle decks going wide with goblin tokens which are primarily 1/1 critters. - radiant flames in a R/B version hits for 2 of course, so gives more reach in just 1 card, for 1 mana more, so is way more useful imo. Not to mention we wanted to use dual lands such as cinder glade for example we can take the board damage up to 3. SO by going with radiant flames MAin deck, something youd never even consider with Boiling Earth, it also opens up your SB more, as no need for including radiant flames/boiling earth style side board cards.
seismic rupture I think is the best option if I replaced Radiant, but I like Radiant hitting my opponents fliers. EVen the big fliers radiant flames doesnt kill for only 2 damage, in mid to late game when the larger fliers are coming out, using Radiant plus wild slash or draconic roar or exquisite firecraft makes it alot easit to bring those big boys down, while also giving the chance to take out multiple other creatures. Also -stormchaser mage and Drana, Liberator of Malakir are some things that fly and need to be accounted for as I xpect to see both grow in popularity moving forward.
crux of fate I really like, I was pushing for this card in the SB a few weeks back. But now already playing Kolaghan, the storm's fury x2 or x3 in most versions, and or Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker as well as now Goblin Dark-Dwellers there is just alot happening at the 5 mana cost spot. And with Radiant flames, being able to hit 2 turns earlier than Crux - if our deck does start off slow (and if you notice, it seems alot more versions of this deck are slowing down in favor of a more mid range, grindier version) we have an early, fast sweeper to stall them out as we establish our board.
Kozilek's Return basically is the same thing other than being instant speed. The other ability which needs an Eldrazi creature spell with 7 mana or more, is not something we can currently activate and make use of in R/B Dragons. So it is certainly something to consider, and I think being instant is awesome of course. If I am only running R/B with no splash at all as talked about, than as I end up getting these I would replace radiant flames with them in a heart beat. Looks like they are already approaching $20 which stinks, lol.
Looking to include another Goblin Dark-Dwellers, probably removing the Sarkhan.
Also, based off of suggestions above, want to try a comparison version taking out radiant flames & Hangarback walker and trying out dragon whisperer in place of the HBW's and not sure just yet what to put in in place of the x3 radiant flames.
Thats cool. The other lists can slow down if they want. I prefer to speed up actually. Hence replacing Hangarback with Forerunner. Not saying this is better, but would like to at least give it a go. Also upping the count of Firecraft in my list from 2x to 4x.
And really wanting to put in 3x Crackling Doom. It is just bad ass and it burns.
Hey guys, I have been on this deck over two months now and I have been fairly successful going 3-1 or 4-0 in my LGS on FNMs. First off, let me share my deck:
I see Nalaars have been discussed here. From my experience this card was bonkers after I added it to the deck two weeks ago. I usually have problems with really fast aggro or decks with a lot of 1-1 removal, Nalaars solve that problem. Also there’s a great synergy with Hangarback Walker if you need to crack it open.
Forerunner of Slaghter have been also great and I like to run them alongside Hangarback Walker. 3-power haster after a board wipe is usually back-breaking for an opponent and it won me a lot of games. However I want to shave one for the new Bushwhacker. I also like Goblin Dark-Dwellers but I don’t want to fiddle with my mana curve, also I don’t own Kolaghan’s Command to make it count. I’ll experiment with them nonetheless.
Except for Atarka Red/RG Landfall (due to their speed) I haven’t had any bad matchups and the sideboard makes wonders, especially Self-Inflicted Wound and Duress. Those are my two cents, hope it would be helpful.
I like that dec, but I'm a bit wary of two things:
- Grasp of darkness: I see RB Dragons mainly as red with a splash of black. BB doesn't seem like something I would like to run, no matter how much I love this card.
- 4 Kolaghan, the Storm Fury is one too many IMHO. I've been stuck with 2 in hand too often while running 3 in the deck. I would replace the last one with Dragonlord Kolaghan or a maindeck Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
He does have 12 fetches to be able to get black so BB is a lot more doable than usual, though I'd throw Grasp in the sideboard for Kolaghan's Command main. And seeing as he's heavy on the instants and sorceries I'd go Dark-Dwellers.
I like that dec, but I'm a bit wary of two things:
- Grasp of darkness: I see RB Dragons mainly as red with a splash of black. BB doesn't seem like something I would like to run, no matter how much I love this card.
- 4 Kolaghan, the Storm Fury is one too many IMHO. I've been stuck with 2 in hand too often while running 3 in the deck. I would replace the last one with Dragonlord Kolaghan or a maindeck Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
For what it is worth, I agree with you on both points.
Also as much as I like Grasp of darkness this deck doesn't really need any more spot removal, as it has plenty. Especially if running Goblin Dark-Dwellers. In fact (not to get to far off topic) I think including GD-D in main deck, at least 2 copies, gives us more flex in the removal spots.
I also thought that running 4 Kolaghan, the Storm Fury was to many. I say this fully realizing I am discussing a deck list which topped 8 - but 6 seems to be the magic number for me, where as I feel I am more often than not, being able to get full use of draconic roar. And now that I am including 2 copies of goblin dark-dwellers - I don't think the deck can handle more than that to avoid becoming to clunky.
Plus with the addition of the Dark Dweller, I would not fear dropping my instant and sorcery count down by 4, and adding in Monastery Swiftspear x4 or whatever other 4 creatures if felt it was needed. (I like to maintain a bit more of an early game board presence myself )
I like that list, though I would cut one Cut fir a third (or even a fourth) Fiery Impulse. The problem with Murderous Cut is that it clashes with both Fiery Impulse and Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
Also, with Big Red, you really want to kill stuff on the early turns.
I like that list, though I would cut one Cut fir a third (or even a fourth) Fiery Impulse. The problem with Murderous Cut is that it clashes with both Fiery Impulse and Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
Also, with Big Red, you really want to kill stuff on the early turns.
Agreed. IMO Murderous Cut is a SB card in this archetype. Or no more than a 1 of. We want to be synergistic, and its not like we are hurting on spot removal.
I have not used, and have not missed fiery impulse in my builds, as I run wild slash x4 and draconic roar x4 which I feel gives plenty of early game removal, which I agree we have to have. But I feel the build benefits more from being able to go to the head with our burn spells more so than triggering mastery and being able to hit for an extra pint of damage. Same amount of damage being done by draconic roar. Also running at least 2 to 3 exquisite firecraft in all of my versions so far.
That's one of the things I really like about this deck, its actually a true burn deck once again.
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4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Cinder Glade
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
8x Mountain
4x Smoldering Marsh
2x Swamp
4x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (6)
2x Exquisite Firecraft
4x Hordeling Outburst
4x Flamewake Phoenix
2x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4x Hangarback Walker
3x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
4x Thunderbreak Regent
Instant (12)
4x Draconic Roar
4x Fiery Impulse
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Murderous Cut
2x Duress
3x Foul-Tongue Invocation
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Outpost Siege
2x Radiant Flames
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
2x Transgress the Mind
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
3 Dragon Whisperer
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Lightning Berserker
Spells 13
4 Draconic Roar
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
4 Wild Slash
9 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Goblin Heelcutter
3 Boiling Earth
2 Roast
4 Duress
3 Tainted Remedy
I built this deck to be a little more aggressive than the standard list, for example I run Dragon Whisperer as my two-drop over Hangerback for the evasion and aggro. I might take out a couple of creatures for some more removal though. The sideboard's a little weird too, but everything has a reason to be there. Tainted Remedy is probably the weirdest of them, but between Siege Rhino and Jeskai decks lifegain is pretty prevalent in my meta.
how do you like that dragon whisperer?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Draconic Roar
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
4 Wild Slash
2 Exquisite Firecraft
9 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Five rounds losing to Jeskai Control and a very close match up against Temur white.
Defeated a mono blue aggro deck with lots of counter spells, the new Jeskai prowess with stormchaser mage, and G/x Eldrazi Ramp.
So farHaven of the Spirit dragon has had zero impact.
For my next event, I would like to try replacing 4x Hangarback walker with 4x forerunner of slaughter to see how it goes.
I would also really like to add 3x copies of Crackling Doom. Its very good card. But I am not sure how to work the mana.
4x battlefield forge can be self destructive when starting out a game with one or two. Needle Spires and Nomad Outpost add more tap lands.
4x Exquisite Firecraft might be happening too.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
The card is awsome. How could we fit it in?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I have been following the ATL coverage fairly closely, and have been disappointed to not seen this deck covered so far. I was really interested to see this deck played at a higher level and see what new innovations from Oath would be tried out.
Forgot to mention I'm also looking at cutting the basic swamps because I don't need black before turn 3.
R/b Dragons has made SCG Atlanta Top 8.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Once they post Marcel's deck list will post it if no one else beats me to it.
I will give the dragon whisperer's another shot, as your correct the format is changing and making a move to being more aggro could be the way to go. Thanks for the suggestions!
(coming back to edit my response to elaborate a bit more on something)
Just came back to add another reason I have been sticking with the HBW is first, the competive versions I have seen place have all been using HBW, I think without fail - and that certainly counts for something. Also - imo this deck type suffers from 2 main draw backs. A) no card draw. B) although amazing spot removal, no board sweepers.
So in some of my most recent versions I have been main boarding 2 or 3 radiant flames . My thinking being that it answers 1 of those problems to some extent, and since it actually has very little effect playing radiant flames for 2 (black and red mana ) the only creatures in my deck list that are hurt by it are possibly HBW (if it has'nt been pumped up by the time it is needed to play Radiant Flames and flamwake phoenix which can be brought back from graveyard.
Hangarback walker of course if killed by radiant flames still gives back the thopters, so works nicely.
Main decking board sweepers I feel "should" give this deck even more depth against some of the decks which I feel are our poorest match ups. Token decks, rally decks in particular.
Interested in others thoughts, as since I have made these changes to my version of the deck, life has kept me from doing as much play testing as I would like to get a better feel if I am on the right track or not. February an event is coming to Houston, and I want to take this deck and give it a go there, so will try to get hot and heavy play testing this deck and fine tuning it in the upcoming weeks.
We also have access to boiling earth / seismic rupture / Crux of Fate.
And who says we cannot play Kozilek's Return?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
boiling earth Has been a card I had always kept on SB as it can handle decks going wide with goblin tokens which are primarily 1/1 critters. - radiant flames in a R/B version hits for 2 of course, so gives more reach in just 1 card, for 1 mana more, so is way more useful imo. Not to mention we wanted to use dual lands such as cinder glade for example we can take the board damage up to 3. SO by going with radiant flames MAin deck, something youd never even consider with Boiling Earth, it also opens up your SB more, as no need for including radiant flames/boiling earth style side board cards.
seismic rupture I think is the best option if I replaced Radiant, but I like Radiant hitting my opponents fliers. EVen the big fliers radiant flames doesnt kill for only 2 damage, in mid to late game when the larger fliers are coming out, using Radiant plus wild slash or draconic roar or exquisite firecraft makes it alot easit to bring those big boys down, while also giving the chance to take out multiple other creatures. Also -stormchaser mage and Drana, Liberator of Malakir are some things that fly and need to be accounted for as I xpect to see both grow in popularity moving forward.
crux of fate I really like, I was pushing for this card in the SB a few weeks back. But now already playing Kolaghan, the storm's fury x2 or x3 in most versions, and or Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker as well as now Goblin Dark-Dwellers there is just alot happening at the 5 mana cost spot. And with Radiant flames, being able to hit 2 turns earlier than Crux - if our deck does start off slow (and if you notice, it seems alot more versions of this deck are slowing down in favor of a more mid range, grindier version) we have an early, fast sweeper to stall them out as we establish our board.
Kozilek's Return basically is the same thing other than being instant speed. The other ability which needs an Eldrazi creature spell with 7 mana or more, is not something we can currently activate and make use of in R/B Dragons. So it is certainly something to consider, and I think being instant is awesome of course. If I am only running R/B with no splash at all as talked about, than as I end up getting these I would replace radiant flames with them in a heart beat. Looks like they are already approaching $20 which stinks, lol.
Creatures: 20
Monastery Swiftspear x4
Hangarback Walker x4
Flamewake Phoenix x4
Thunderbreak Regent x4
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury x2
Goblin Dark-Dwellers x1
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker x1
Sorcery: x6
Radiant Flames x3
Exquisite Firecraft x3
Instants: x10
wild slash x4
draconic roar x4
kolaghan's command x2
Lands: 24
Polluted Delta x2
Wooded Foothills x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Smoldering Marsh x4
Swamp x1
Mountain x9
Looking to include another Goblin Dark-Dwellers, probably removing the Sarkhan.
Also, based off of suggestions above, want to try a comparison version taking out radiant flames & Hangarback walker and trying out dragon whisperer in place of the HBW's and not sure just yet what to put in in place of the x3 radiant flames.
And really wanting to put in 3x Crackling Doom. It is just bad ass and it burns.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Cool list.
How do you like Bloodsoaked Champion over Monastery Swiftspear?
And how how has Pia and Kiran Nalaar been bonkers for you?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Thats the link to see Marcel Strautz's B/R Dragon deck he placed 5th with in ATL this weekend.
- Grasp of darkness: I see RB Dragons mainly as red with a splash of black. BB doesn't seem like something I would like to run, no matter how much I love this card.
- 4 Kolaghan, the Storm Fury is one too many IMHO. I've been stuck with 2 in hand too often while running 3 in the deck. I would replace the last one with Dragonlord Kolaghan or a maindeck Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
For what it is worth, I agree with you on both points.
Also as much as I like Grasp of darkness this deck doesn't really need any more spot removal, as it has plenty. Especially if running Goblin Dark-Dwellers. In fact (not to get to far off topic) I think including GD-D in main deck, at least 2 copies, gives us more flex in the removal spots.
I also thought that running 4 Kolaghan, the Storm Fury was to many. I say this fully realizing I am discussing a deck list which topped 8 - but 6 seems to be the magic number for me, where as I feel I am more often than not, being able to get full use of draconic roar. And now that I am including 2 copies of goblin dark-dwellers - I don't think the deck can handle more than that to avoid becoming to clunky.
Is there a version of this deck that can run the required dragons to make use of draconic roar, copies of Pia and Kiran Nalaar AND Goblin Dark-Dwellers?
Marcel Strautz's deck list had the following 17 creatures in it:
Hangarback Walker x3
Flamewake Phoenix x4
Thunderbreak Regent x4
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury x4
Pia and Kiran Nalaar x2
I would think you could remove 2 of the Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury and put in Goblin-Dark Dwellers x2
Plus with the addition of the Dark Dweller, I would not fear dropping my instant and sorcery count down by 4, and adding in Monastery Swiftspear x4 or whatever other 4 creatures if felt it was needed. (I like to maintain a bit more of an early game board presence myself )
Yeah, of everything, this seemed like the biggest missed opportunity.
Using his shell as a starting point, I'd probably make a couple adjustments as thus:
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Spells (17)
4 Draconic Roar
2 Fiery Impulse
3 Murderous Cut
2 Duress
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Hordeling Outburst
5 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Polluted Delta
3 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Outpost Siege
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Duress
2 Roast
4 Transgress the Mind
Basically -2 Kolaghan, +2 Dark-Dwellers, -3 Grasp, +3 Firecraft
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Also, with Big Red, you really want to kill stuff on the early turns.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Agreed. IMO Murderous Cut is a SB card in this archetype. Or no more than a 1 of. We want to be synergistic, and its not like we are hurting on spot removal.
I have not used, and have not missed fiery impulse in my builds, as I run wild slash x4 and draconic roar x4 which I feel gives plenty of early game removal, which I agree we have to have. But I feel the build benefits more from being able to go to the head with our burn spells more so than triggering mastery and being able to hit for an extra pint of damage. Same amount of damage being done by draconic roar. Also running at least 2 to 3 exquisite firecraft in all of my versions so far.
That's one of the things I really like about this deck, its actually a true burn deck once again.