About Synco versus Dissipate : Dissipate all the way. The only reason I'm playing Synco in my list is that I like the art :-p The odds of having only two mana and he's tapped out can't be the same as the odds of having 4+ mana or he's not tapped out. That's how I see it.
To make the fancy-looking decklist : with the tags [deck][/deck]. You write your list like this :
Creatures
4 Snapcaster
Sideboard
4 Jace, Memory Adept
With the tags and it's magic
Moz : Vanishment, really? Faith's Shield? Sundering Growth? Vanishment is just plain bad (I mean, Miracled it isn't so bad, but hard cast? Ew), Faith's Shield is only useful if your opponent happens to wnat to kill one of five cards in your deck and you have a mana open (read here : too narrow, play another threat instead) and Sundering Growth... Why not O-Ring? That's essentially a Naturalize at this point, with no way to make tokens. It's a narrow answer with the benefit cut off completely. That's... a strange choice indeed.
Moz : Vanishment, really? Faith's Shield? Sundering Growth? Vanishment is just plain bad (I mean, Miracled it isn't so bad, but hard cast? Ew), Faith's Shield is only useful if your opponent happens to wnat to kill one of five cards in your deck and you have a mana open (read here : too narrow, play another threat instead) and Sundering Growth... Why not O-Ring? That's essentially a Naturalize at this point, with no way to make tokens. It's a narrow answer with the benefit cut off completely. That's... a strange choice indeed.
Last changes are : -1 dissipate, -1 thought scour, -1 faith's shield, -1 vanishment, +4 Augur of Bolas
Alright :
Vanishment : This really comes in handy, (yes, i mean even if not miracled) because it's synergy with my mill outlet (nephalia, jace).
Faith shield : Buy me a turn in a aggro match (mono red), and protect my walker from o-ring, sphere, burn, getting attacked, dreadbore, vraska, etc.
My consideration is o-ring is easy to remove, and they get their stuff back. i don't want that happen, so i choose sundering growth (it's narrower, but doesn't give they their stuff back). actually, i don't really need it though, because my vanishment only can handle artifact and enchantment well.
Strange choice? Indeed. I also surprised that a card like vanishment is good in my deck. The statement "every card are good in their own deck" is correct.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Last changes are : -1 dissipate, -1 thought scour, -1 faith's shield, -1 vanishment, +4 Augur of Bolas
Alright :
Vanishment : This really comes in handy, (yes, i mean even if not miracled) because it's synergy with my mill outlet (nephalia, jace).
Faith shield : Buy me a turn in a aggro match (mono red), and protect my walker from o-ring, sphere, burn, getting attacked, dreadbore, vraska, etc.
My consideration is o-ring is easy to remove, and they get their stuff back. i don't want that happen, so i choose sundering growth (it's narrower, but doesn't give they their stuff back). actually, i don't really need it though, because my vanishment only can handle artifact and enchantment well.
Strange choice? Indeed. I also surprised that a card like vanishment is good in my deck. The statement "every card are good in their own deck" is correct.
Why not then play Terminus instead of Vanishment? yes its not an instant but its a much better board wiper.....
Vanishment : No, that's not great. You've paid 9 mana to mill two cards from your opponent and destroy a nonland permanent. If you have the Drownyard. O-Ring exiles and is semi-permanent for six less mana and no need to get another card in there. Even miracled, paying five to deal with a nonland permanent in a very conditionnal way isn't good. Play a better answer, that would be my opinion. Maybe if you had more answers you wouldn't need Faith's Shield.
Faith's Shield : It will buy you a turn, if only you get to 5- life before dying. Furthermore, it won't do much more than buy a turn. Would you play Heroes' Reunion? You prefer a hard answer that will not be dead if they aren't attacking into you with 5- life. Furthermore, you aren't even protecting yourself correctly if they then play a burn spell in response.
As for 'walker protection, play another 'walker instead. If you draw it later, it will still be playable. But more than that, compare Faith's Shield with Syncopate for a minute. Sure, Synco can't stop an attack from creatures that share a color. However, Synco can prevent those creature from coming into play, can stop that O-Ring from eliminating your 'walker and can also counter a variety of other spells.
Faith's Shield is too conditionnal to be good. If you draw it in the late-game, it's completely dead. It can't save you. It can only prevent a couple of damage in narrow situations. Play a broader card that will be useful at all times. Don't evaluate a card in its best case scenario. Think of it in the worse and how often that worse situation happens. It's a card that is only good if you have other cards. It's a card that's only good if your opponent is playing cards that will target your cards or is attacking one of your planeswalker. In Fateful Hour, it's a card that will most often only buy you a turn and won't help you turn the tides.
Play either more threats or broader answer. That's my take on it.
Every card they use to destroy your O-Ring is one less they're playing to deal with something else. There are very few cards that are played that deal only with enchantments. That means that what will most often destroy your O-Ring is either another O-Ring (who won't hit your 'walkers) or Golgari Charm (that guy doesn't know how to sideboard and you're probably winning). What else? Ray of Revelation? How many people will side in Rays against your deck?
Play another O-Ring, you have nothing to populate. Sundering Growth won't be exceptionnal in any matchup you might encounter. Against which deck would you really need to side in Sundering? O-Ring for broad spot-removal, I can understand, but is there really a deck that rely so much on enchantments and artifact that you want specific hate?
Vanishment : No, that's not great. You've paid 9 mana to mill two cards from your opponent and destroy a nonland permanent. If you have the Drownyard. O-Ring exiles and is semi-permanent for six less mana and no need to get another card in there. Even miracled, paying five to deal with a nonland permanent in a very conditionnal way isn't good. Play a better answer, that would be my opinion. Maybe if you had more answers you wouldn't need Faith's Shield.
Faith's Shield : It will buy you a turn, if only you get to 5- life before dying. Furthermore, it won't do much more than buy a turn. Would you play Heroes' Reunion? You prefer a hard answer that will not be dead if they aren't attacking into you with 5- life. Furthermore, you aren't even protecting yourself correctly if they then play a burn spell in response.
As for 'walker protection, play another 'walker instead. If you draw it later, it will still be playable. But more than that, compare Faith's Shield with Syncopate for a minute. Sure, Synco can't stop an attack from creatures that share a color. However, Synco can prevent those creature from coming into play, can stop that O-Ring from eliminating your 'walker and can also counter a variety of other spells.
Faith's Shield is too conditionnal to be good. If you draw it in the late-game, it's completely dead. It can't save you. It can only prevent a couple of damage in narrow situations. Play a broader card that will be useful at all times. Don't evaluate a card in its best case scenario. Think of it in the worse and how often that worse situation happens. It's a card that is only good if you have other cards. It's a card that's only good if your opponent is playing cards that will target your cards or is attacking one of your planeswalker. In Fateful Hour, it's a card that will most often only buy you a turn and won't help you turn the tides.
Play either more threats or broader answer. That's my take on it.
Every card they use to destroy your O-Ring is one less they're playing to deal with something else. There are very few cards that are played that deal only with enchantments. That means that what will most often destroy your O-Ring is either another O-Ring (who won't hit your 'walkers) or Golgari Charm (that guy doesn't know how to sideboard and you're probably winning). What else? Ray of Revelation? How many people will side in Rays against your deck?
Play another O-Ring, you have nothing to populate. Sundering Growth won't be exceptionnal in any matchup you might encounter. Against which deck would you really need to side in Sundering? O-Ring for broad spot-removal, I can understand, but is there really a deck that rely so much on enchantments and artifact that you want specific hate?
O-Ring, D-Sphere, Abrupt Decay, Vraska. And sorcery speed.
Syncopate is too narrow right now, easily outclassed against ramp deck, and almost all decks ramps now, So, sadly no syncopate (It's good, but only if played 3-4 to counter early things), but with 3 dissipate I can hard counter anything, and add some field control, rather than stack control.
Vanishment has some synergy, while played at instant speed. I was playing O-Ring and it's good. But playing something that have synergy with the rest of the deck, while adding some mana is quite sweet.
Vanishment and O-Ring are good in different ways of playing.
Btw, do you have a cockatrice account? I would like to play against your Esper version.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
sadly, i can't get any, it's above mythic in rarity at my place. Maybe it's not above mythic, but people own them, don't want to sell.
O-Ring, D-Sphere, Abrupt Decay, Vraska. And sorcery speed.
Syncopate is too narrow right now, easily outclassed against ramp deck, and almost all decks ramps now, So, sadly no syncopate (It's good, but only if played 3-4 to counter early things), but with 3 dissipate I can hard counter anything, and add some field control, rather than stack control.
Vanishment has some synergy, while played at instant speed. I was playing O-Ring and it's good. But playing something that have synergy with the rest of the deck, while adding some mana is quite sweet.
Vanishment and O-Ring are good in different ways of playing.
Btw, do you have a cockatrice account? I would like to play against your Esper version.
how much does terminus cost in your place... why not try feeling of dread to stall or unsummon and cyclonic rift...
s
O-Ring, D-Sphere, Abrupt Decay, Vraska. And sorcery speed.
Syncopate is too narrow right now, easily outclassed against ramp deck, and almost all decks ramps now, So, sadly no syncopate (It's good, but only if played 3-4 to counter early things), but with 3 dissipate I can hard counter anything, and add some field control, rather than stack control.
Vanishment has some synergy, while played at instant speed. I was playing O-Ring and it's good. But playing something that have synergy with the rest of the deck, while adding some mana is quite sweet.
Vanishment and O-Ring are good in different ways of playing.
Btw, do you have a cockatrice account? I would like to play against your Esper version.
I don't have a Cockatrice account, so that wouldn't be possible :).
How many ramp deck do you see in your meta anyway? Even in that case, I'd still run Cancel over this. Seriously. At least it answers the threat without costing 9. But still, even with all the answers, O-Ring would be better.
Vanishment has synergy with Nephalia Drownyard. That synergy only makes it come from "unplayable" to "barely playable". Keep in mind you're paying nine mana to get a conditionnal "destroy target nonland permanent". Hell, would you play Desert Twister? Even if you miracle it, in which case it's incredibly narrow, you're still paying five for a destroy target nonland permanent. I can't get behind that. I just can't. It's just useless if you don't have the Drownyard or the mana availabe, instant-speed or not.
I don't have a Cockatrice account, so that wouldn't be possible :).
How many ramp deck do you see in your meta anyway? Even in that case, I'd still run Cancel over this. Seriously. At least it answers the threat without costing 9. But still, even with all the answers, O-Ring would be better.
Vanishment has synergy with Nephalia Drownyard. That synergy only makes it come from "unplayable" to "barely playable". Keep in mind you're paying nine mana to get a conditionnal "destroy target nonland permanent". Hell, would you play Desert Twister? Even if you miracle it, in which case it's incredibly narrow, you're still paying five for a destroy target nonland permanent. I can't get behind that. I just can't. It's just useless if you don't have the Drownyard or the mana availabe, instant-speed or not.
thragtusk everywhere = farseek everywhere.
Cancel has different control classification than O-Ring, you can't compare them, so as with Vanishment and O-Ring, they have different classification i think.
Your choice are good, I admit it, because I once also used that playstyle before, but this deck has different approach, more exact answer than anything.
Again Desert Twister and vanishment is also different, they have different speed which Instant is easily outclass Sorcery, and also, being blue is an additional value for vanishment.
About 9 mana removal spell, It's a bit stupid at the first glance, but if you play it, it will be good, in a right deck and a right timing. If you have something to playtest digitally and don't cost you anything (cockatrice, mws, etc), you'll see what my point is.
I don't want to post my decklist and do whatever I can to defend it and ignore people's suggestion tho. I just think that is a good idea that has different playstyle than mine.
If someone has a cockatrice / mws account, I suggest you to try my list, and see how it's going. You don't need to test Dilleux's list, because has been proven good.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
You don't hyave to adopt my suggestions either, and you can very well defend your decklist. In the end, it's all up to a matter of opinion and I'm only arguing because I like that I sincerely don't think it's a good play (although I'll admit I don't have the time to playtest it enough), but you can run whatever you want :-D I don't have any right to saying my opinion is better than yours. Still, a few points :
Having four Farseeks does not a ramp deck make. Sure, Bant play four Farseek. It doesn't mean they always have a ton of mana available. By the time Synco is rendered useless, you'll have the opportunity of countering many relevant things. Anyway, with nine mana, you can counter pretty much anything at any point in the game.
I put counters and O-Ring and Vanishment into the "answer" broad category, because they aim to do the same : prevent your opponent from doing something relevant. Of cours,e they are very different. However, I can't understand why paying 9 mana to deal with a single nonland permanent (conditionnaly) versus paying three but risking a removal on your enchantment could emerge better. Even in two instances of five and four, I'd prefer casting two Inspiration and following up with something relevant.
What does everyone think about a running one Liliana and one Intangible Virtue?
Here me out here! Personally i find most of my games usually come down to me playing a bucket load of planeswalkers that they just cant kill them all fast enough (my meta is very mid rangy) before i just wipe their board etc. Then being able to just slap down a Liliana and lock them down seems far to good. that and against control it would be vital. I'd only run one though, no more (in the main)
The intangible Virtue is relatively straightforward. we're doing very little turn 2 unless its holding a syncopate or a charm etc so being able to boost the tokens that come later is a great help, and against agro instead of making chump blockers we can actually trade against more creatures.
That and one Runechanters Pike is phenomenal, mid-to late game it just does disgusting things
Also testing Keyrunes now, i like it in theory. In practice we shall see....
What does everyone think about a running one Liliana and one Intangible Virtue?
Here me out here! Personally i find most of my games usually come down to me playing a bucket load of planeswalkers that they just cant kill them all fast enough (my meta is very mid rangy) before i just wipe their board etc. Then being able to just slap down a Liliana and lock them down seems far to good. that and against control it would be vital. I'd only run one though, no more (in the main)
The intangible Virtue is relatively straightforward. we're doing very little turn 2 unless its holding a syncopate or a charm etc so being able to boost the tokens that come later is a great help, and against agro instead of making chump blockers we can actually trade against more creatures.
That and one Runechanters Pike is phenomenal, mid-to late game it just does disgusting things
Also testing Keyrunes now, i like it in theory. In practice we shall see....
liliana is good imo in esper superfriends....adding 1 would be a good idea maybe ill try playtesting and see how it goes..thanks for the idea dude
EDIT:
playtested it with my friend's b/g zombie i added 2 proxies of those...went 2-2 in 4 games we played problem with it is his abrupt decay which in instant speed a terror for my liliana...hmm ill try playtesting in other decks im still waiting for players to come to this shop so i could playtest this to them...liliana did great in 1 game when he didnt have abrupt sideboarded but when he sideboarded it..liliana became useless most of the time because when i played it before i use her -2 ability he immediately abrupt decay it...instant speed in a zombie deck sucks T_T...
It's actually been quite good. I am well aware Snapcaster beats won't "get me there" very often so yes, my only real win condition is Drownyard mill. I actually got it to this point and thought, "auto-scoop to Zombies" but it has worked AMAZINGLY well against Zombies. just charming and vanishing crawlers/diregraf/cackler what have you slows them down so much giving me time to miracle or even hardcast terminus.
I know that sounds quite un-synergistic with my main win condition being mill but it works. Vanishinment on a turn 1 play is the best things I've seen in a long time. Against everything without haste it means you wont even be attacked until turn 3, when your spooky ghosts are already up.
The sideboard is heavily geared towards stopping more aggro decks. Purify is the only thing I could see that helped me against zombies that also stopped reanimator. Rest in Peace hurts me as much as many other decks so I couldn't use it and tormod's crypt was too one-off for me.
Clone is stricly there to kill legends and let me play in the Thragtusk wars. There's no easy way to deal with it so an even trade works for me. Gravepurge + Snapcaster Mage or Clone is SO USEFUL.
The alchemy's right now, though my favorite standard card, are lacking in utility I think until GTC comes out. I intend to either replace them with more jaces, Jace, Memory Adept or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage. Not sure yet.
Other cards I'm considering: Psychic Spiral (as a one off) Banishing Stroke (only it doesn't hit pw's ) Angel of Serenity (as a 2-off to just win with beats looping snapcasters and removing their stuff)
if your going for mill psychic spiral and jace memory adept must be in this deck... drownyard as your wincon is err kinda slow mill you need a faster mill anyways how did you deal with fast aggro decks like zombies?
I literally thought zombies would be auto-scoop but I beat it 2-1 tonight. As long as they don't get 4 messengers on turns 3-6 I can win. The tempo from charm + snap + vanishment is just ludicrous. They can't kill you because attackers go to top and they can draw answers cuz everything goes on top.
Best play I had IMO (game 3) turn 2 charm, turn 3 charm, turn 4 snap charm, turn 5 vanishment. Once you get to hardcast Terminus range its entirely too much for them to come back. The point isn't to put stuff on top then mill it, the point it to just tempo them until your late game is just better. Pretty much if I don't die by turn 5 I don't lose to zombies.
i miss my snappy i wish i didnt trade it for entreat
your deck feels like esper midrange without resto...
It's actually been quite good. I am well aware Snapcaster beats won't "get me there" very often so yes, my only real win condition is Drownyard mill. I actually got it to this point and thought, "auto-scoop to Zombies" but it has worked AMAZINGLY well against Zombies. just charming and vanishing crawlers/diregraf/cackler what have you slows them down so much giving me time to miracle or even hardcast terminus.
I know that sounds quite un-synergistic with my main win condition being mill but it works. Vanishinment on a turn 1 play is the best things I've seen in a long time. Against everything without haste it means you wont even be attacked until turn 3, when your spooky ghosts are already up.
The sideboard is heavily geared towards stopping more aggro decks. Purify is the only thing I could see that helped me against zombies that also stopped reanimator. Rest in Peace hurts me as much as many other decks so I couldn't use it and tormod's crypt was too one-off for me.
Clone is stricly there to kill legends and let me play in the Thragtusk wars. There's no easy way to deal with it so an even trade works for me. Gravepurge + Snapcaster Mage or Clone is SO USEFUL.
The alchemy's right now, though my favorite standard card, are lacking in utility I think until GTC comes out. I intend to either replace them with more jaces, Jace, Memory Adept or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage. Not sure yet.
Other cards I'm considering: Psychic Spiral (as a one off) Banishing Stroke (only it doesn't hit pw's ) Angel of Serenity (as a 2-off to just win with beats looping snapcasters and removing their stuff)
Banishing stroke :really narrow. pass.
Look at my list @page 25 i'm not mistaken, i run a very similar goal like you.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
And 3 other cards. Most decks we loose to, or myself at least is Argo, however dropping a bunch of 2/2 3/3's on turn 3/4 with vigilance kind of laughs at Argo.
Thoughts?
Also with the Lilliana who ever was testing it I think zombies is the match where you side it out for sure! So that may have been the wrong one to test against!
And 3 other cards. Most decks we loose to, or myself at least is Argo, however dropping a bunch of 2/2 3/3's on turn 3/4 with vigilance kind of laughs at Argo.
Thoughts?
Also with the Lilliana who ever was testing it I think zombies is the match where you side it out for sure! So that may have been the wrong one to test against!
Since with intangible virtue and favorable winds is a control deck anymore, you can ask in esper token thread.
Just doesn't want this thread direction go somewhere different than it doesn't supposed to be.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
MD : You don't have any token-booster apart from Sorin. It's still a control list because you aim to control the board until the late-game, where you'll overwhelm your opponent with CA and emblems. The transformationnal sideboard of Smurfy transform the very core of the deck to a aggro token deck that wants to run over his opponent instead of just controlling the board.
Smurfy : I've never played with a transformationnal sideboard, and I'm not very sold on the idea, but I know many list that have rode that to success. The key is making your opponent sideboard out his answers and gut him with a second game 1.
Against aggro, though, I'm not sure that would be very favorable. Sure, you have big tokens, but they already probably put you in burn range while you were setting up. To get to big enough tokens so that they stop the onslaught, you need two enchantments, which means you won't get any big tokens until at least T4. By that time, you'll need to sweep the board. If you do, you're better off with more control-ish elements. That's my first thought of what could make the idea undesirable.
On the other hand, if your opponent puts himself in the "control" mindset and you overwhelm him with tokens, he might be surprised, especially is he played around a sweeper and kept a couple more creatures in hand. What's even more fun is that Azorius Charm can finally use its lifelink ability
All in all, you'll simply have to playtest. I'd suggest siding out more control-ish cards for the token-making and going more tapout after the sideboard. That's what I can say.
Moz : while I understand the need to keep the token lists in the tokens thread, keep in mind they're probably keeping the control list out of their thread This is a control deck with a transformationnal sideboard. It doesn't fit either thread, so I don't see a problem posting it in the thread fo the maindeck. It's an interesting idea.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Sorry if this off topic, is it worth for us to splash red for rakdos's return? I think with sweep-return (op handsize = 0), we will retain the control for quite a long time...?
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Adding a fourth color? If you have a good budget for Shocks, I suppose. Also depending on your deck. I'm not sure it's worth it, but it's difficult to say without a decklist popping up.
MD : You don't have any token-booster apart from Sorin. It's still a control list because you aim to control the board until the late-game, where you'll overwhelm your opponent with CA and emblems. The transformationnal sideboard of Smurfy transform the very core of the deck to a aggro token deck that wants to run over his opponent instead of just controlling the board.
Smurfy : I've never played with a transformationnal sideboard, and I'm not very sold on the idea, but I know many list that have rode that to success. The key is making your opponent sideboard out his answers and gut him with a second game 1.
Against aggro, though, I'm not sure that would be very favorable. Sure, you have big tokens, but they already probably put you in burn range while you were setting up. To get to big enough tokens so that they stop the onslaught, you need two enchantments, which means you won't get any big tokens until at least T4. By that time, you'll need to sweep the board. If you do, you're better off with more control-ish elements. That's my first thought of what could make the idea undesirable.
On the other hand, if your opponent puts himself in the "control" mindset and you overwhelm him with tokens, he might be surprised, especially is he played around a sweeper and kept a couple more creatures in hand. What's even more fun is that Azorius Charm can finally use its lifelink ability
All in all, you'll simply have to playtest. I'd suggest siding out more control-ish cards for the token-making and going more tapout after the sideboard. That's what I can say.
Moz : while I understand the need to keep the token lists in the tokens thread, keep in mind they're probably keeping the control list out of their thread This is a control deck with a transformationnal sideboard. It doesn't fit either thread, so I don't see a problem posting it in the thread fo the maindeck. It's an interesting idea.
I didnt word my first post properly as it was late at night and from the Ipad half asleep
You hit the nail on the head really, though the Transformational side is a bad idea against Agro now i think about it. In the mirror/or a pure control deck when they side out sweepers and you do terrible things to them with tokens.
12 spaces in the Side would be taken up by Haunting/Virtue/Winds then maybe some good Old St Trafs? I think i may try this tomorrow at FNM and report back, i expect either epic victories or crushing defeats!
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To make the fancy-looking decklist : with the tags [deck][/deck]. You write your list like this :
Creatures
4 Snapcaster
Sideboard
4 Jace, Memory Adept
With the tags and it's magic
Moz : Vanishment, really? Faith's Shield? Sundering Growth? Vanishment is just plain bad (I mean, Miracled it isn't so bad, but hard cast? Ew), Faith's Shield is only useful if your opponent happens to wnat to kill one of five cards in your deck and you have a mana open (read here : too narrow, play another threat instead) and Sundering Growth... Why not O-Ring? That's essentially a Naturalize at this point, with no way to make tokens. It's a narrow answer with the benefit cut off completely. That's... a strange choice indeed.
Last changes are : -1 dissipate, -1 thought scour, -1 faith's shield, -1 vanishment, +4 Augur of Bolas
Alright :
Vanishment : This really comes in handy, (yes, i mean even if not miracled) because it's synergy with my mill outlet (nephalia, jace).
Faith shield : Buy me a turn in a aggro match (mono red), and protect my walker from o-ring, sphere, burn, getting attacked, dreadbore, vraska, etc.
My consideration is o-ring is easy to remove, and they get their stuff back. i don't want that happen, so i choose sundering growth (it's narrower, but doesn't give they their stuff back). actually, i don't really need it though, because my vanishment only can handle artifact and enchantment well.
Strange choice? Indeed. I also surprised that a card like vanishment is good in my deck. The statement "every card are good in their own deck" is correct.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Why not then play Terminus instead of Vanishment? yes its not an instant but its a much better board wiper.....
Faith's Shield : It will buy you a turn, if only you get to 5- life before dying. Furthermore, it won't do much more than buy a turn. Would you play Heroes' Reunion? You prefer a hard answer that will not be dead if they aren't attacking into you with 5- life. Furthermore, you aren't even protecting yourself correctly if they then play a burn spell in response.
As for 'walker protection, play another 'walker instead. If you draw it later, it will still be playable. But more than that, compare Faith's Shield with Syncopate for a minute. Sure, Synco can't stop an attack from creatures that share a color. However, Synco can prevent those creature from coming into play, can stop that O-Ring from eliminating your 'walker and can also counter a variety of other spells.
Faith's Shield is too conditionnal to be good. If you draw it in the late-game, it's completely dead. It can't save you. It can only prevent a couple of damage in narrow situations. Play a broader card that will be useful at all times. Don't evaluate a card in its best case scenario. Think of it in the worse and how often that worse situation happens. It's a card that is only good if you have other cards. It's a card that's only good if your opponent is playing cards that will target your cards or is attacking one of your planeswalker. In Fateful Hour, it's a card that will most often only buy you a turn and won't help you turn the tides.
Play either more threats or broader answer. That's my take on it.
Every card they use to destroy your O-Ring is one less they're playing to deal with something else. There are very few cards that are played that deal only with enchantments. That means that what will most often destroy your O-Ring is either another O-Ring (who won't hit your 'walkers) or Golgari Charm (that guy doesn't know how to sideboard and you're probably winning). What else? Ray of Revelation? How many people will side in Rays against your deck?
Play another O-Ring, you have nothing to populate. Sundering Growth won't be exceptionnal in any matchup you might encounter. Against which deck would you really need to side in Sundering? O-Ring for broad spot-removal, I can understand, but is there really a deck that rely so much on enchantments and artifact that you want specific hate?
here is my current list....
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Plains
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4x Azorius Charm
1x Cyclonic Rift
2x Dissipate
3x Feeling of Dread
1x Forbidden Alchemy
1x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Syncopate
4x Think Twice
4x Lingering Souls
1x Supreme Verdict
4x Terminus
2x Ultimate Price
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Sever the Bloodline
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Rest in Peace
2x Nevermore
1x Essence Scatter
it's like you're going miracle control here...
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
sadly, i can't get any, it's above mythic in rarity at my place. Maybe it's not above mythic, but people own them, don't want to sell.
O-Ring, D-Sphere, Abrupt Decay, Vraska. And sorcery speed.
Syncopate is too narrow right now, easily outclassed against ramp deck, and almost all decks ramps now, So, sadly no syncopate (It's good, but only if played 3-4 to counter early things), but with 3 dissipate I can hard counter anything, and add some field control, rather than stack control.
Vanishment has some synergy, while played at instant speed. I was playing O-Ring and it's good. But playing something that have synergy with the rest of the deck, while adding some mana is quite sweet.
Vanishment and O-Ring are good in different ways of playing.
Btw, do you have a cockatrice account? I would like to play against your Esper version.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
how much does terminus cost in your place... why not try feeling of dread to stall or unsummon and cyclonic rift...
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
I don't have a Cockatrice account, so that wouldn't be possible :).
How many ramp deck do you see in your meta anyway? Even in that case, I'd still run Cancel over this. Seriously. At least it answers the threat without costing 9. But still, even with all the answers, O-Ring would be better.
Vanishment has synergy with Nephalia Drownyard. That synergy only makes it come from "unplayable" to "barely playable". Keep in mind you're paying nine mana to get a conditionnal "destroy target nonland permanent". Hell, would you play Desert Twister? Even if you miracle it, in which case it's incredibly narrow, you're still paying five for a destroy target nonland permanent. I can't get behind that. I just can't. It's just useless if you don't have the Drownyard or the mana availabe, instant-speed or not.
for about 3/4 of scg price in my country currency.
feeling of dread are only needed in fast aggro.
unsummon is not have any synergy with my deck. dread is better because i can sweep them. 1-2 Cyclonic Rift is a good number IMO.
thragtusk everywhere = farseek everywhere.
Cancel has different control classification than O-Ring, you can't compare them, so as with Vanishment and O-Ring, they have different classification i think.
Your choice are good, I admit it, because I once also used that playstyle before, but this deck has different approach, more exact answer than anything.
Again Desert Twister and vanishment is also different, they have different speed which Instant is easily outclass Sorcery, and also, being blue is an additional value for vanishment.
About 9 mana removal spell, It's a bit stupid at the first glance, but if you play it, it will be good, in a right deck and a right timing. If you have something to playtest digitally and don't cost you anything (cockatrice, mws, etc), you'll see what my point is.
I don't want to post my decklist and do whatever I can to defend it and ignore people's suggestion tho. I just think that is a good idea that has different playstyle than mine.
If someone has a cockatrice / mws account, I suggest you to try my list, and see how it's going. You don't need to test Dilleux's list, because has been proven good.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Having four Farseeks does not a ramp deck make. Sure, Bant play four Farseek. It doesn't mean they always have a ton of mana available. By the time Synco is rendered useless, you'll have the opportunity of countering many relevant things. Anyway, with nine mana, you can counter pretty much anything at any point in the game.
I put counters and O-Ring and Vanishment into the "answer" broad category, because they aim to do the same : prevent your opponent from doing something relevant. Of cours,e they are very different. However, I can't understand why paying 9 mana to deal with a single nonland permanent (conditionnaly) versus paying three but risking a removal on your enchantment could emerge better. Even in two instances of five and four, I'd prefer casting two Inspiration and following up with something relevant.
Here me out here! Personally i find most of my games usually come down to me playing a bucket load of planeswalkers that they just cant kill them all fast enough (my meta is very mid rangy) before i just wipe their board etc. Then being able to just slap down a Liliana and lock them down seems far to good. that and against control it would be vital. I'd only run one though, no more (in the main)
The intangible Virtue is relatively straightforward. we're doing very little turn 2 unless its holding a syncopate or a charm etc so being able to boost the tokens that come later is a great help, and against agro instead of making chump blockers we can actually trade against more creatures.
That and one Runechanters Pike is phenomenal, mid-to late game it just does disgusting things
Also testing Keyrunes now, i like it in theory. In practice we shall see....
liliana is good imo in esper superfriends....adding 1 would be a good idea maybe ill try playtesting and see how it goes..thanks for the idea dude
EDIT:
playtested it with my friend's b/g zombie i added 2 proxies of those...went 2-2 in 4 games we played problem with it is his abrupt decay which in instant speed a terror for my liliana...hmm ill try playtesting in other decks im still waiting for players to come to this shop so i could playtest this to them...liliana did great in 1 game when he didnt have abrupt sideboarded but when he sideboarded it..liliana became useless most of the time because when i played it before i use her -2 ability he immediately abrupt decay it...instant speed in a zombie deck sucks T_T...
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
if your going for mill psychic spiral and jace memory adept must be in this deck... drownyard as your wincon is err kinda slow mill you need a faster mill anyways how did you deal with fast aggro decks like zombies?
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
i miss my snappy i wish i didnt trade it for entreat
your deck feels like esper midrange without resto...
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
really? i will never trade nor sell my SCM if I get any
Banishing stroke :really narrow. pass.
Look at my list @page 25 i'm not mistaken, i run a very similar goal like you.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Something like
4 midnight haunting
4 intangible virtue
4 favorable winds
And 3 other cards. Most decks we loose to, or myself at least is Argo, however dropping a bunch of 2/2 3/3's on turn 3/4 with vigilance kind of laughs at Argo.
Thoughts?
Also with the Lilliana who ever was testing it I think zombies is the match where you side it out for sure! So that may have been the wrong one to test against!
Since with intangible virtue and favorable winds is a control deck anymore, you can ask in esper token thread.
Just doesn't want this thread direction go somewhere different than it doesn't supposed to be.
Maybe you can ask privately to dilleux's inbox.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Smurfy : I've never played with a transformationnal sideboard, and I'm not very sold on the idea, but I know many list that have rode that to success. The key is making your opponent sideboard out his answers and gut him with a second game 1.
Against aggro, though, I'm not sure that would be very favorable. Sure, you have big tokens, but they already probably put you in burn range while you were setting up. To get to big enough tokens so that they stop the onslaught, you need two enchantments, which means you won't get any big tokens until at least T4. By that time, you'll need to sweep the board. If you do, you're better off with more control-ish elements. That's my first thought of what could make the idea undesirable.
On the other hand, if your opponent puts himself in the "control" mindset and you overwhelm him with tokens, he might be surprised, especially is he played around a sweeper and kept a couple more creatures in hand. What's even more fun is that Azorius Charm can finally use its lifelink ability
All in all, you'll simply have to playtest. I'd suggest siding out more control-ish cards for the token-making and going more tapout after the sideboard. That's what I can say.
Moz : while I understand the need to keep the token lists in the tokens thread, keep in mind they're probably keeping the control list out of their thread This is a control deck with a transformationnal sideboard. It doesn't fit either thread, so I don't see a problem posting it in the thread fo the maindeck. It's an interesting idea.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
I didnt word my first post properly as it was late at night and from the Ipad half asleep
You hit the nail on the head really, though the Transformational side is a bad idea against Agro now i think about it. In the mirror/or a pure control deck when they side out sweepers and you do terrible things to them with tokens.
12 spaces in the Side would be taken up by Haunting/Virtue/Winds then maybe some good Old St Trafs? I think i may try this tomorrow at FNM and report back, i expect either epic victories or crushing defeats!