First post! I'm actually pretty active on the official forums, but I thought I'd post my list here for more critique. Here's the link to that thread (I can do that, right?).
- Big finishers are a mix of Drogskol Reaver, Army of the Damned (sweep or die) and Staff of Nin, but most games are won over tokens;
- Notice the Curse of Death's Hold -- Staff of Nin lockdown;
- Between Lingering and Sorin, there should be enough chumpblockers against aggro, even if some are trample, but Rancor is a pain;
- Detention Sphere/O-Ring split helps against opposing Spheres;
- Sever seems slow, but it can be deadly;
- No counterspells mean no dead card in hand, though Negate in the side is great against control;
- This is more tapout and less draw-go.
Comments appreciated!
EDIT : anyone got an idea of why my avatar isn't showing? :S
You can control the board with Feeling of Dread or Detention Sphere until you can hit the land for a board wipe. 8 wipers (11 if you count the Curse of Death's Hold) may be too many, so I may swap those out with Oblivion Ring. Once you control the board, you can set out Azorius Keyrune that don't die when you wipe the board, or Lingering Souls and hold the flashback for when you wipe the board.
- About Dissipate : Counters is not where you want to be at maindeck. Why? Because all aggro decks will make that counter completely useless, or useful too late for too little. Synco I could get behind, but Dissipate is just too costly to do anything against a lot of very good decks. Against zombie or humans, you'll often run into a Cavern, against midrange, it costs too much to really be good. It's only against control that it shines. Additionnally, counters are only really good in draw-go shells nowadays. If you're tapout, skip the counters main completely. You prefer hard removal.
- Tamiyo I find doesn't do much more than Sorin most of the time. The second ability is nice, but Sorin can actually make all those Lingering tokens go through for the win. It also makes you gain a bit of life, which isn't nothing in such a meta, and multiples of him aren't bad (you sac him to get emblems, then play the other one). That's why I preferred him over Tamiyo. However, in a deck with few tokens, Tamiyo might be preferable.
- I don't like Jace. Really. However, a lot of very good players like him, so don't take my opinion on him too seriously. We'll see how he fares.
- Augur is nice, but I realized that you really need a lot of instant/sorceries to get the extra card, so I switched for Doomed Traveler. I like how he can chump block twice and have evasion on the second round. Most interesting play : ping him with Staff at end of turn to give him flying if it'll make you win. Most people don't expect this.
- Nighthawk is interesting, but I'm wary of the stretch on the mana base. I'd be curious to know if he's easily castable with three colors like this. Keep me posted!
- Tragic Slip is good, but when we have access to O-Ring and friends, a crapload of sweepers and everything, I don't think it's good enough for inclusion. After all, there aren't that many 1-drops that really need to be answered now. Against human, it could be good, but I prefer hard removal against the rest of the field. Curse is a beast against those decks anyway.
- Azorius Charm, IMHO, is a trap. It's never impressive. The first ability will never be used and the last is simply cycling, so there's only the second (I hope that the correct order :P). I tried it, but I found that delaying an attack, what will all the ETB critters in the format, isn't as impressive as it sounds. Sure, it could be good to put on top Silverblade Paladin and block the other paired creature, but that's about all that could be useful out of it. Again, hard removal would be better, in my opinion.
- Pithing Needle has nothing useful to name. Against 'walkers, you're better off with O-Ring. Against nonbasics... just ignore nonbasics. I didn't find many targets for it. But more than everything, I can't think of a matchup where I'd like to side it in. Superfriends, maybe, but then I'd prefer casting Lingering and attacking into their walker than trying to guess which one they have in hand. The weakness of Needle is that it does nothing unless your opponent has the correct card in hand.
- Angel of Serenity can be nice as a finisher, but no more than two big creatures. There are a lot of spot removal in the format (at least in decks where you need that 7-drop against them), and it's not protected. You're better off with four or five finishers than six, four of them being the same creature. Entreat and Army have the benefit of needing a sweeper to protect against. Entreat can be cast earlier, and Army has flashback. For those reasons, I prefer more solid answers.
- Specifically on Last Warrior's list : do the Snappies have enough targets? Only playtesting can tell, but considering wraths aren't really a good target for Snap, there's only Azorius Charm and Dissipate, which I don't find is enough. There are the singletons Sever and Ultimate Price, but I don't know, maybe he'll fall short sometimes. Playtest and keep me posted! Also, I don't understand the choices you made for your sideboard. Against which deck would you need your Geists? Lingerings? Is it supposed to be a transform sideboard?
- Four Sweepers is enough. More than that, and you're often looking at an empty field with two of them in hand and nothing you can do to kill your opponent. Anyway, you only need one or two in a given game. The narrow cases where you'd prefer to have more than four or five may warrant a sideboard inclusion, but maindeck, four is enough, five the maximum.
- Feeling of Dread can be an incredible card in the sideboard, but I don't think it should be maindecked. It's only useful against very aggressive decks (zombie, humans) and falls short on utility against control or midrange. I have four in the sideboard, but maindeck, I'd be wary of having a dead card.
- I prefer a split between Detention Sphere and Oblivion Ring. Why? Because people don't normally think about a split, and it plays to your advantage. You can't hit multiple targets with half your Rings, but those can hit the opposing Spheres. That can win a matchup on its own.
- Syncopate I like in the sideboard. It's good against control, but even more so against reanimator.
- Intangible Virtue can be boarded in against durdley decks to increase the early pressure. Haven't tested it much, but it looks promising.
I like your lists, guys. I know I make a lot of comments, but it's because I've played control for a long time and have playtested a lot. I also like to give all my thoughts about why I didn't include a card or another because it sparks discussions which can lead to very enlightening comments. If you disagree with something I said, don't hesitate to answer my comment. I'll be more than happy to discuss the pros and cons of every card with anyone!
You said that the nighthawk would stretch the manabase a little too much with double black, which i would agree with. However, you then turn around and run army of the damned, which is triple black. Personally i just don't like the card: they cant block when they are played, and there is alot of stuff to handle them, like sever and detention sphere. I personally prefer Entreat, but that is just me. I know they are weak to the same thing as the zombie tokens, but I think the ability to block first turn, and the bigger bodies with flying make up for it, plus, our mana base can handle the double white miracle cost much better than triple black. Even the hard cast cost of triple white is much easier than the triple black.
- About Dissipate : Counters is not where you want to be at maindeck. Why? Because all aggro decks will make that counter completely useless, or useful too late for too little. Synco I could get behind, but Dissipate is just too costly to do anything against a lot of very good decks. Against zombie or humans, you'll often run into a Cavern, against midrange, it costs too much to really be good. It's only against control that it shines. Additionnally, counters are only really good in draw-go shells nowadays. If you're tapout, skip the counters main completely. You prefer hard removal.
So far, I don't find any problem with dissipate. Not countering their creatures doesn't mean we open to their non-creature.
2 MAINDECKED is good for preparation. Cards similar to Dissipate are always good.
- Tamiyo I find doesn't do much more than Sorin most of the time. The second ability is nice, but Sorin can actually make all those Lingering tokens go through for the win. It also makes you gain a bit of life, which isn't nothing in such a meta, and multiples of him aren't bad (you sac him to get emblems, then play the other one). That's why I preferred him over Tamiyo. However, in a deck with few tokens, Tamiyo might be preferable.
You are underestimating the control power of Tamiyo. I've been through many deck (since mine was UW version), and I ALWAYS satisified to Tamiyo.
But, if you choose Sorin, then our play style is different.
- Nighthawk is interesting, but I'm wary of the stretch on the mana base. I'd be curious to know if he's easily castable with three colors like this. Keep me posted!
Use it as 2-of. With correct manabase, you'll see no problem (in general case).
- Tragic Slip is good, but when we have access to O-Ring and friends, a crapload of sweepers and everything, I don't think it's good enough for inclusion. After all, there aren't that many 1-drops that really need to be answered now. Against human, it could be good, but I prefer hard removal against the rest of the field. Curse is a beast against those decks anyway.
- Azorius Charm, IMHO, is a trap. It's never impressive. The first ability will never be used and the last is simply cycling, so there's only the second (I hope that the correct order :P). I tried it, but I found that delaying an attack, what will all the ETB critters in the format, isn't as impressive as it sounds. Sure, it could be good to put on top Silverblade Paladin and block the other paired creature, but that's about all that could be useful out of it. Again, hard removal would be better, in my opinion.
Combine this with Sweeper is the option.
It's that good. You can see my list for further details.
- Four Sweepers is enough. More than that, and you're often looking at an empty field with two of them in hand and nothing you can do to kill your opponent. Anyway, you only need one or two in a given game. The narrow cases where you'd prefer to have more than four or five may warrant a sideboard inclusion, but maindeck, four is enough, five the maximum.
No, 6 is the ideal number of sweeper, to save your day.
- Feeling of Dread can be an incredible card in the sideboard, but I don't think it should be maindecked. It's only useful against very aggressive decks (zombie, humans) and falls short on utility against control or midrange. I have four in the sideboard, but maindeck, I'd be wary of having a dead card.
Feeling of Dread is easily MB. But that's differ to each deck.
- I prefer a split between Detention Sphere and Oblivion Ring. Why? Because people don't normally think about a split, and it plays to your advantage. You can't hit multiple targets with half your Rings, but those can hit the opposing Spheres. That can win a matchup on its own.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
@moz.the.blessed
I think you would have a problem casting curse of death's hold and vampire nighthawk, seeing as you have only 5 black mana producers. Even if you got both evolving wilds, you can only grab one swamp. Other than that it looks like a pretty good list. Just wondering, why no detention spheres?
@moz.the.blessed
I think you would have a problem casting curse of death's hold and vampire nighthawk, seeing as you have only 5 black mana producers. Even if you got both evolving wilds, you can only grab one swamp. Other than that it looks like a pretty good list. Just wondering, why no detention spheres?
Yes, i missed 4 Duress manabase in my SB. Other than that, i'll add 1-2 swamp(s) more. Thanks for your suggestion.
No detention? O-Ring is just more versatile. Personally, I somehow don't like the "Not named Detention Sphere" clause.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
im still not sold on vampire night hawk. it seems a little awkward in this deck, can you explain why you have it? it seems as though you have it to attack and otherwise just to sacrifice it to kill something. I guess the lifelink could be revelvant though...I feel if it wasn't double black i could see it in the deck, but i think it is just a little too mana restrictive to see play here. I do like drogskol reaver here, i think ill add that. I think you should also have more spot removal, just the two o rings seems a little lacking. I also agree that intangible virtue is awkward in this deck.
- Nighthawk and the mana base : first, it's a 3-mana creature. It's very different from a eight-mana sorcery. See it that way. Half our lands produce black mana. Nighthawk requires 2/3, Curse 3/5 and Army 3/8. Of the three, only one requires more than half black to be played at the right time. That's why I think it's a stretch. However, if you're okay about casting it on turn four, sometimes five, then it can be a perfectly valid inclusion, as it's very good. time will tell.
- Entreat and Army are equivalent. Army is more consistant on the kill, since at eight mana, you'll almost always win if they don't answer it twice (flashback). With hard-cast Entreat, you get to pay a lot more to get the kill. However, you can block when you play it, you can play it earlier to save your butt and it can be miracled. I prefer Army, partly for power reasons (resilience and must-answer) and honestly, partly because I've just saved 40$ by playing Army, without much difference.
- Dissipate : I understand, but it's a dead draw against Zombies and Humans, which is my problem. Furthermore, there are list without any noncreature spell you can counter, like Zombies. So maindecked, you're giving a terrible edge to aggro decks with means to fight your counters. Your three drop should help you reach your sweeper, which is why I prefer something like O-Ring, D-Sphere or Lingering in that spot. However, it's really good against slower deck. It depends on your local meta, I guess, but I'd put in in the sideboard.
- Tamiyo is always good, I agree with that sentiment. It stops any permament, can draw you lots in some cases and can win the game with its ultimate. However, I feel that Sorin, who occupies a similar role in the deck, it better in that he gives you life, more easily ramps up for the kill and isn't neutralized by removal. Of course, it all depends on your playstyle. Sorin has a lot of synergy with the rest of my deck, because I have quite a bit of chump blockers who love enblems. This is not an easy choice, I agree. What's sure to me is that both are superior in this build to Jace 4.
- Moz : I don't understand what you mean about Azorius Charm. Could you elaborate?
- 6 Sweepers? Maybe. Not any more than that, that's for sure. 5 seems to be sufficient. It would need more playtesting, you may be right.
- Feeling of Dread, IMO, is only good mainboard in tempo decks, because you'll always have a target to tap (blockers, for instance). In control, though, you don't always want to tap something, so It may not be the best choice main. It's good against aggro, but it's really bad against more durdley decks, against which you want to put pressure and accumulate CA. Since it's a dead card in half the matchups, I tend to relegate it to the sideboard in a control deck.
- Syncopate is better than Dissipate in a three-color tapout deck. In a draw-go style, Dissipate may win, but here, the choice was between Negate and Synco, and Synco won for its exile clause. This deck can't afford to keep three mana open, except in the very late game, and I'd prefer dropping something good instead. Of course, those versions with Charms and Haunting and things that are played on your opponent's turn may prefer Dissipate in their side to deal with late-drops. Also, if you're playing them maindecked, then Dissipate is better, that's not even a question.
- We have no room for nonbasics that don't produce colored mana in a three colored deck with cards that stretch what we can cast. Between the three colored casting cost of Supreme Verdict and the two colored cost of Curse, you really need all your lands to produce colored mana.
- Nephalia Drownyard is way too durdley for the format. You're better off with lands that will give a better edge, Ghost Quarter being one.
- I don't like Jace 3 in that list, because there's no synergy. If he's removed, he's wasted and you've probably given munitions to your opponent. his +1 isn't good enough to be included above Tamiyo, IMO.
- I don't think the best answer to Zombies and Reanimator is graveyard hate. I think we're better off with dealing with the spells themselves instead. Against zombies, you want to be exiling his stuff on the field, and against Reanimator, Synco-ing his reanimator spell will let you deal with his hardcast creatures without a problem.
I love the discussion Keep that coming. A lot of good lists here.
I was trying to think about why i prefer entreat so much, and it hit me. Army you cant cast until turn 8 at the minimum, and that is if you can hit a land drop every turn. Entreat on the other hand, can hit the board turn 4 or 5 and still win you the game. So both of them win you the game, but with entreat you can get it on the board in 3 or 4 turns faster, which in this format, is a huge deal.
I do understand what you are saying about entreat being cheaper, but i have 3 of army and 3 entreat, and am trying to decide which will go better in the deck
Dropping an Entreat on turn 5, hardcasted, doesn't win you the game. It's worse than Serra Angel. Entreat becomes completely lethal at 13 mana when hardcasted, and even more with chumb blockers or removal. Army, on the other hand, is always lethal at eight mana with three extra tokens. That's a big difference in power for the hardcasted version. Army also nets you two uses.
When miracled, Entreat is miles better. However, I don't like to build on the best scenario. I think that building on the average is more accurate. To get that Entreat on turn four or five or even six, when you have two in our deck... Well, let's say the odds aren't in your favor. The odds of having it in your starting hand or draw it too soon or too late are much greater.
Army is more consistent and resilient. Entreat has more variance and the power to block when cast and save your butt on turn five. These are the pros and cons. I prefer Army. Some will prefer Entreat. I don't think here actually is any good answer other than "depends on your playstyle". Maybe the best answer, given Slaughter Games, is one of each. I can't say.
I thought esper deck is dead because of the current meta T_T tears of joy its still alive im pretty much a beginner so as an esper player i prefer 2 tamiyo and 2 sorin altogether why? because sorin can protect tamiyo because of its vamp while tamiyo is executing its first ability and also the support of other removal, detainers or tapper cards (tragic slip or murder, Inaction Injunction and feeling of dread)...
2 syncopate and 2 dissipate is good rather than 4 syncopate why?
imo based on my experience i tried to mainboard 4x syncopate and it didn't go well late game because it became a dead card for me most of the time especially playing against control and agro decks so 2 dissipate would balance it out its kinda costly but it would really help you a lot most of the games because it EXILES like syncopate and also it is more consistent than syncopate in late games...murder would be a good addition but mostly sideboard... i prefer paying 3 than paying 2 of ultimate price because ultimate price is no GFTT or Doom Blade...but it depends on your style of play so its only my oppinion lastly entreat the angel for me entreat is kinda nuisance at times when i draw it when i dont have mana for its miracle and sometimes i need to mulligan because it is in my hand at the beginning so im still searching for a creature that would be a good finisher and the only card that ive tried yet as a finisher is avacyn, angel of hope and desecration demon and also drogskol reaver....i haven't tried griselbrand because i haven't acquired it and maybe ill try to by using proxy first...(that card is kinda expensive )
Why is there so little love for Jace? the guy is a beast he fogs and give you a little fact or fiction. and if you manage to get his big gun off you have your win con and your opponents win con. Jace can win games.
Azorius charm is amazing for stalling. Isnt that what a control deck does?
in my current meta theres a ton of zombies so terminus is a must have 4 of.
murder is way better than ultimate price since most creatures are multi color ultimate price is super situational.
Nighthawk is a nice deterant for not swinging with there big dogs right away again he is more a chump/stall tactic
there is also another list i am going to post in a bit that I had a nice conversation with a dude on cockatrice. using mostly pw jace sorin and tamiyo.
Snapcaster Azorius charm is big game.
you can also get him back with the angel, he gets sided out in some match-ups but you can also flash back syncopate.
I really like the combination of syncopate and dissipate, because if you have dissipate, then they aren't going to play around syncopate.
Counterspells are in a kind of awkward spot right now between Cavern of Souls and all the uncounterable. I feel that they aren't the stop sign they were. I'd suggest running none at all, but two could be okay. At four, though, I feel you'll often look at a useless card as Abrupt Decay and Dreg Mangler bash your head in. This coming form the guy who ran eight counters in the last Standard
Murder has the problem of needing two black mana for a three-mana cost, which makes it a bit hard to cast effectively. At the same cost, you can get Oblivion Ring, which exiles and is more versatile. If you aren't running against a crapload of enchantment removal, it almost always is the better choice, especially considering the amount of creature with die trigger.
As for finishers, Avacyn is nice, but it's still one more mana than Drogskol or the other Angel, and indestructible can still be beaten by exiling and tapping, which makes it less impressive. It's still a solid finisher, though. As for Desecration Demon, it's not exactly a control finisher. It's the guy that will help midrange more than control. He has a decent body, but doesn't help you stabilize and isn't as impressive as dropping Drogskol or Avacyn or Entreat. He costs four, though, but he's right in the middle of the curve at the very moment you're stabilizing with sweepers and Sorin. It's a good card, but for another deck, methink.
Drogskol is nice because of his lifelink and card draw. It helps you stabilize a lot and gain that life you need to get out of range of those pesky burn spells or haste critters. I like him a lot. Also consider Angel of Serenity in that slot, a lot of people like her.
If I had to make a budget choice, It would be Drogskol and Army of the Damned that would make the cut. They're powerful, have a lot of impact of the board and cost little to no money.
EDIT to answer other posts : I don't like Jace because he doesn't Fog, he doesn't FoF and he doesn't win games. His first will reduce your damage of one, maybe two damage? If he's stopping 3+ damage, you've already lost. Tokens isn't a big enough deck for him to really be a nuisance. FoF? He makes you look at the top three cards of your library and draw one. Not impressive as a -2 on a four-mana 'walkers. His ultimate? If you ever get there, it's still not that impressive. Jace 4 is the definition of win-more : he'll stop few damage, won't give you real CA (consider what Beleren did at a cheaper cost) and may eventually make you cast two spells. Big deal. I do recognize, however, that not a lot of people share my thoughts. I may very well be wrong.
Azorius Charm doesn't deal with the creature. On some, it even hurts you. I prefer a removal that actually deals with them. If I want to stall, I prefer FoD, which is far more efficient for its cost. Azorius Charm would be good if you had a use for every mode. You don't. Maybe it would be good if it weren't conditionnal. As it stands, though, paying two mana to make him cast that Gravecrawler again is far from impressive. O-Ring is far better, even if it costs one more mana.
If you have four Terminus, but on the Supreme Verdicts. Eight sweeper is too much. 4/2 is the max, IMO. Of course, I haven't seen your meta. If you really need eight sweepers, by all means, go ahead and run eight. Some meta are simply like that
If you're playing a full playset of Snappy and Resto, you aren't playing exactly the same deck as I. I haven't playtested that deck, I must admit, but I'm not sure about its matchup against aggro and UW humans. How is it?
heres jace text. You may want to read number 2 again this isnt ponder you get to not only choose what you have you get to cycle things to the bottom that may not be useful. as for the statement that he doesnt win game. He has for me and sevral of the people i do a lot of play testing with. getting to his ultimate is not as hard as it sounds with a few well placed counters and taymio tapping big threats he will get you there.
Azorious charm has saved me many turns i like its utility and it is semi flexible
+1: Until your next turn, whenever a creature an opponent controls attacks, it gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
-2: Reveal the top three cards of your library. An opponent separates those cards into two piles. Put one pile into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library in any order.
-8: For each player, search that player's library for a nonland card and exile it, then that player shuffles his or her library. You may cast those cards without paying their mana costs.
Azorious charm has saved me many turns i like its utility and it is semi flexible
(Still not as much as izzet charm but ehh)
terminus is the best sweeper in the game and i have started running 2 supreme with 2 more sided
I have also tested out desecration demon and i like him. I dont really have a huge mana problem with swamps on anything i have had double black
This card, is Win or Sweep. If applied, it's win the game faster than Drogskol Reaver. 26 Damage, divided in 13 creatures is no joke.
You'll want at least one of each of them in your esper deck for finisher role.
I'll test the Army soon.
- About Vampire Nighthawk discussion :
Yes, Vamp's awkward. Really. But, in the current standard, there is no better dude to handle the role.
If I have better dudes / maybe finisher such as Army of the Damned I just realized, I will surely drop him.
- About Dissipate and Syncopate discussion
I personally, feel really annoyed if I'm playing blue and I always letting my opponent cast spells. I got to limit their play. That's blue for me. Otherwise, don't play blue. Again, it's personal.
2 Dissipates is enough to counter their big things. This needs a good observation of the game and practice to decide what to counter, since if you have open mana available, it seems all of your opponent's spells are dangerous. But even the dangerous has the most ones. So yeah, it's not easy. But, that's what I like about blue.
I can only have 2 room for counterspell, and a non exact counter in late game doesn't deserve place here. Syncopate is more tempo-ish card than Dissipate
- About Azorius Charm discussion
Let say you have an unsummon with "You can only cast it to target blocking or attacking creatures", with extra white to "Skip your opponent's next draw step".
And also, it never be a dead card. It draws you card. So, 2-3 is minimum number in a control deck that have blue and white.
It's no joke, really. Go test it. With good option decision, it's really good. I also didn't know it until I tested it.
- About Nephalia Drownyard discussion
This card is the main reason I splashed black. It's an semi-unremovable control finisher. It can only removed with Ghost Quarter.
It WINS games. Try it.
It's has synergy with Azorius Charm also.
- About Jace, Memory Adept discussion
It's a finisher. Combined with Nephalia Drownyard. It's an additional Win Con for you. The last Jace is boarded in a control matchup.
It's has synergy with Azorius Charm also.
- About no-room-for-colorless-lands discussion
I never have a serious problem with the manabase. So, yeah. I think my colorless lands brew is good enough, and worth to try.
1 Ghost Quarter for something like Kessig and Nephalia, which will be very annoying in opp's side.
2 Evolving Wilds for fixing
2 Nephalia for additional win con.
- About Jace, Architect of Thought discussion
He is good, although not $50 good. He somehow not fit my deck. That's why I don't use him.
- About Feeling of Dread discussion
You can side that out in control matchup. But since we are more likely to find aggro decks, then it should be mainboarded 4.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Log :
Just lose 0-3 to mono red
Just win 1-0 to Selesnya Aggro
-1 Army of the Damned +1 Azorius Charm
how did you lose to mono red dude? can you give the details please it might help thanks
btw this is my current rig...i removed sorin and made him as a sideboard...
i haven't got ultimate price yet...i added this because there are a lots of monocolored creatures that needed a spanking like thragtusk(oh i so hate this on jund midrange it made me look bad T_T), vampire nighthawk and craghorn behemoth...
i use jace 4.0 because first i got lucky and got 2 from booster packs second it helps me draw with its mini FOF(imo its kinda FOF to me) and also has great synergy with my sideboarded curse bec of its +1....i sideboarded sorin because i think in this current meta it would be hard to protect your planeswalker with just 1 vamp especially playing with aggro...i tend to remove rather than stall so my tamiyo is just a support for control and also its epic emblem which makes you cast spells repeatedly(your opponent would scope if you have 1 removal and 1 counterspell in your hand best case dissipate )...witchbane orb is a good sideboard against cheese and curses....like my friend told me cremate is a good sideboard for zombies with undying it makes them CREMATED hahahahah...when i was playing today with a friend of mine i mainboarded 2 sever the bloodline and for me it was epic bec of its late game flashback(late game bec it cost 7 to cast @_@)...my mainboard has actually have 3 snappy but my sister wanted 1 badly so i gave 1 to her i added 1 oblivion ring to make it more consistent to draw.... 4 mass removal is good but i havent tested yet if its ok to have 6 or above mass removal...
i haven't got ultimate price yet...i added this because there are a lots of monocolored creatures that needed a spanking like thragtusk(oh i so hate this on jund midrange it made me look bad T_T), vampire nighthawk and craghorn behemoth...
i use jace 4.0 because first i got lucky and got 2 from booster packs second it helps me draw with its mini FOF(imo its kinda FOF to me) and also has great synergy with my sideboarded curse bec of its +1....i sideboarded sorin because i think in this current meta it would be hard to protect your planeswalker with just 1 vamp especially playing with aggro...i tend to remove rather than stall so my tamiyo is just a support for control and also its epic emblem which makes you cast spells repeatedly(your opponent would scope if you have 1 removal and 1 counterspell in your hand best case dissipate )...witchbane orb is a good sideboard against cheese and curses....like my friend told me cremate is a good sideboard for zombies with undying it makes them CREMATED hahahahah...when i was playing today with a friend of mine i mainboarded 2 sever the bloodline and for me it was epic bec of its late game flashback(late game bec it cost 7 to cast @_@)...my mainboard has actually have 3 snappy but my sister wanted 1 badly so i gave 1 to her i added 1 oblivion ring to make it more consistent to draw.... 4 mass removal is good but i havent tested yet if its ok to have 6 or above mass removal...
1. Cremate < Purify the Grave.
2. How do you handle aggro? With just 2 terminus, and 2 supreme verdict?
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
I tested army and it really didn't feel good. Like I said before it has no immediate board presence they come in tapped so they can't block best cas scenario is that you catch them game one but after that they hoops a sweeper games 2 and 3 there's a lot of better ways to spend that mana
Dropping an Entreat on turn 5, hardcasted, doesn't win you the game. It's worse than Serra Angel. Entreat becomes completely lethal at 13 mana when hardcasted, and even more with chumb blockers or removal. Army, on the other hand, is always lethal at eight mana with three extra tokens. That's a big difference in power for the hardcasted version. Army also nets you two uses.
When miracled, Entreat is miles better. However, I don't like to build on the best scenario. I think that building on the average is more accurate. To get that Entreat on turn four or five or even six, when you have two in our deck... Well, let's say the odds aren't in your favor. The odds of having it in your starting hand or draw it too soon or too late are much greater.
Army is more consistent and resilient. Entreat has more variance and the power to block when cast and save your butt on turn five. These are the pros and cons. I prefer Army. Some will prefer Entreat. I don't think here actually is any good answer other than "depends on your playstyle". Maybe the best answer, given Slaughter Games, is one of each. I can't say.
Well, this is how i break down the two cards. I myself feel that Entreat the Angels is stronger.
Entreat the Angels
Pros: Insanely powerful when miracled, Can control amount of angels to create, Can cast on your opponent's turn if Miracled, Angels are big and have evasion, Angels ETB untapped
Cons: Less powerful when hardcasted, Seemingly dead in opening hand, Costs triple W to hardcast
Army of the Damned
Pros: Consistent CMC, Consistent number of creatures created, Has Flashback
Cons: Can't control amount of zombies to create, Zombies are small and don't have evasion, Zombies ETB tapped, Costs triple B to cast both from hand and from graveyard
- Jace's second ability effectively makes you choose which card of the next three you want and put the rest on the bottom of your library. For a four-mana 'wlaker -2 ability, I'm not impressed. Sorin makes all your creatures get +1/+0 for the same cost. Jace's first, to be more than -2/-0 on your opponent's side, has to be used against 3+ creatures. How often, in a deck with 6+ sweepers, are there 3+ creatures on your opponent's side? When there are 2- creatures, Sorin's first is far superior, as he can completely stop one of them. Jace's ultiamte is nice, but Sorin's also is. Why is Jace better than Sorin?
- Azorius Charm is a Memory Lapse that is more restricted and let the creatures get their ETB effect. For one more mana, the creature is exiled permanently if there's no artifact destruction. For the same cost, I can tap two creatures and have the option of flashback. For one less, I'll be able to chumpblock twice. The cycling option does not make a bad card better. You prefer running Fog Bank, for example, because it stalls just as much, doesn't let your opponent cast that Messenger one more time and actually helps your board position. It can also be played anytime, which means you don't have to wait for your opponent to attack and keep mana open.
Charm can only be good in real draw-go decks, and I don't feel that they'Re the best lists in this meta. In tapout deck, it's really counterproductive, and I playtested it extensively.
- I'll consider Nighthawk. It's a good idea.
- Drownyard : Additionnal wincon? I don't think you can survive that long in the current meta. Maybe I'm wrong, but durdling so long while letting your opponent access his Gravecrawlers, Scavengers and Flashback spells doesn't look like a great idea, especially in a three-color deck.
- Feeling of Dread : It's not good against many decks. It's good against Zombies and Humans. It's crap against Bant control, American control, Bant Midrange (or is it Selesnya?), Jund Midrange, Reanimator... You want that card in the sideboard, unless your meta is really composed of exclusively Zombies and Humans decks. It's possible, really. However, that's a local meta thing.
- Army : Which better ways to spend your mana? You've got a resilient finisher. How many Sweepers do they have that they can spare? With Lingering and Sorin, they should sweep the board a couple of times of roll over and die, that's what will happen.
- Curse : That should be maindecked. Curse of Death's Hold is amazing in so many matchups! Zombies and Humans are screwed, two of them and midrange doesn't look very promising, UW tempo is crying, tokens weep... It's only against control that it isn't good. Two copies maindeck with a few Staff can really lock up a game faster than you can say "your critter has no toughness now".
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So here's the list :
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Swamp
Creatures
4 Doomed Traveler
2 Drogskol Reaver
Others
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Detention Sphere
4 Azorius Keyrune
4 Lingering Souls
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Staff of Nin
2 Army of the Damned
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Witchbane Orb
4 Feeling of Dread
3 Negate
3 Mind Rot
Here are a couple of points :
- Big finishers are a mix of Drogskol Reaver, Army of the Damned (sweep or die) and Staff of Nin, but most games are won over tokens;
- Notice the Curse of Death's Hold -- Staff of Nin lockdown;
- Between Lingering and Sorin, there should be enough chumpblockers against aggro, even if some are trample, but Rancor is a pain;
- Detention Sphere/O-Ring split helps against opposing Spheres;
- Sever seems slow, but it can be deadly;
- No counterspells mean no dead card in hand, though Negate in the side is great against control;
- This is more tapout and less draw-go.
Comments appreciated!
EDIT : anyone got an idea of why my avatar isn't showing? :S
Army of the Damned This does not have any immediate board effect with the tokens coming in tapped and they are easily taken care of by things like Detention sphere and Sever the bloodline.
Staff of Nin is alright but i feel there better things 6 mana could be spent on.
This is what im gonna be testing in the coming week im getting tired right now ill explain my choices and what not later
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Plains
4 Evolving Wilds
Creatures:
4 Angel of Serenity
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:
4 Terminus
4 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Syncopate
3 Dissipate
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Azorius Charm
1 Thought Scour
1 Ultimate Price
1 Rest in Peace
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Inaction Injunction
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ultimate Price
1 Purify the Grave
4 Lingering Souls
4 Lingering Souls
4 Azorius Keyrune
3 Entreat the Angels
Control:
4 Feeling of Dread
4 Think Twice
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Terminus
4 Detention Sphere
3 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Land
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Island
You can control the board with Feeling of Dread or Detention Sphere until you can hit the land for a board wipe. 8 wipers (11 if you count the Curse of Death's Hold) may be too many, so I may swap those out with Oblivion Ring. Once you control the board, you can set out Azorius Keyrune that don't die when you wipe the board, or Lingering Souls and hold the flashback for when you wipe the board.
Other cards I am considering are:
Dramatic Rescue or Unsummon
Sphinx's Revelation
more planeswalkers
black spot removal
I thought the thread dead, so I didn'T bother to update the decklist. This is where I'm at right now :
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Swamp
2 Drogskol Reaver
3 Doomed Traveler
2 Terminus
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sphere of Detention
3 Staff of Nin
4 Azorius Keyrune
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Army of the Damned
2 Sever the Bloodline
4 Lingering Souls
4 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Witchbane Orb
4 Feeling of Dread
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Syncopate
I'll try to answer as much as possible.
- About Dissipate : Counters is not where you want to be at maindeck. Why? Because all aggro decks will make that counter completely useless, or useful too late for too little. Synco I could get behind, but Dissipate is just too costly to do anything against a lot of very good decks. Against zombie or humans, you'll often run into a Cavern, against midrange, it costs too much to really be good. It's only against control that it shines. Additionnally, counters are only really good in draw-go shells nowadays. If you're tapout, skip the counters main completely. You prefer hard removal.
- Tamiyo I find doesn't do much more than Sorin most of the time. The second ability is nice, but Sorin can actually make all those Lingering tokens go through for the win. It also makes you gain a bit of life, which isn't nothing in such a meta, and multiples of him aren't bad (you sac him to get emblems, then play the other one). That's why I preferred him over Tamiyo. However, in a deck with few tokens, Tamiyo might be preferable.
- I don't like Jace. Really. However, a lot of very good players like him, so don't take my opinion on him too seriously. We'll see how he fares.
- Augur is nice, but I realized that you really need a lot of instant/sorceries to get the extra card, so I switched for Doomed Traveler. I like how he can chump block twice and have evasion on the second round. Most interesting play : ping him with Staff at end of turn to give him flying if it'll make you win. Most people don't expect this.
- Nighthawk is interesting, but I'm wary of the stretch on the mana base. I'd be curious to know if he's easily castable with three colors like this. Keep me posted!
- Tragic Slip is good, but when we have access to O-Ring and friends, a crapload of sweepers and everything, I don't think it's good enough for inclusion. After all, there aren't that many 1-drops that really need to be answered now. Against human, it could be good, but I prefer hard removal against the rest of the field. Curse is a beast against those decks anyway.
- Azorius Charm, IMHO, is a trap. It's never impressive. The first ability will never be used and the last is simply cycling, so there's only the second (I hope that the correct order :P). I tried it, but I found that delaying an attack, what will all the ETB critters in the format, isn't as impressive as it sounds. Sure, it could be good to put on top Silverblade Paladin and block the other paired creature, but that's about all that could be useful out of it. Again, hard removal would be better, in my opinion.
- Pithing Needle has nothing useful to name. Against 'walkers, you're better off with O-Ring. Against nonbasics... just ignore nonbasics. I didn't find many targets for it. But more than everything, I can't think of a matchup where I'd like to side it in. Superfriends, maybe, but then I'd prefer casting Lingering and attacking into their walker than trying to guess which one they have in hand. The weakness of Needle is that it does nothing unless your opponent has the correct card in hand.
- Angel of Serenity can be nice as a finisher, but no more than two big creatures. There are a lot of spot removal in the format (at least in decks where you need that 7-drop against them), and it's not protected. You're better off with four or five finishers than six, four of them being the same creature. Entreat and Army have the benefit of needing a sweeper to protect against. Entreat can be cast earlier, and Army has flashback. For those reasons, I prefer more solid answers.
- Specifically on Last Warrior's list : do the Snappies have enough targets? Only playtesting can tell, but considering wraths aren't really a good target for Snap, there's only Azorius Charm and Dissipate, which I don't find is enough. There are the singletons Sever and Ultimate Price, but I don't know, maybe he'll fall short sometimes. Playtest and keep me posted! Also, I don't understand the choices you made for your sideboard. Against which deck would you need your Geists? Lingerings? Is it supposed to be a transform sideboard?
- Four Sweepers is enough. More than that, and you're often looking at an empty field with two of them in hand and nothing you can do to kill your opponent. Anyway, you only need one or two in a given game. The narrow cases where you'd prefer to have more than four or five may warrant a sideboard inclusion, but maindeck, four is enough, five the maximum.
- Feeling of Dread can be an incredible card in the sideboard, but I don't think it should be maindecked. It's only useful against very aggressive decks (zombie, humans) and falls short on utility against control or midrange. I have four in the sideboard, but maindeck, I'd be wary of having a dead card.
- I prefer a split between Detention Sphere and Oblivion Ring. Why? Because people don't normally think about a split, and it plays to your advantage. You can't hit multiple targets with half your Rings, but those can hit the opposing Spheres. That can win a matchup on its own.
- Syncopate I like in the sideboard. It's good against control, but even more so against reanimator.
- Intangible Virtue can be boarded in against durdley decks to increase the early pressure. Haven't tested it much, but it looks promising.
I like your lists, guys. I know I make a lot of comments, but it's because I've played control for a long time and have playtested a lot. I also like to give all my thoughts about why I didn't include a card or another because it sparks discussions which can lead to very enlightening comments. If you disagree with something I said, don't hesitate to answer my comment. I'll be more than happy to discuss the pros and cons of every card with anyone!
Thanks for the Thread Starter!
Without further ado, this is my list :
2 Island
3 Plains
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Swamp
Counter (2)
2 Dissipate
Stall n Control (11)
4 Feeling of Dread
3 Azorius Charm
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Terminus
3 Supreme Verdict
Token and Creature (4)
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vampire Nighthawk
Finisher (4)
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Drogskol Reaver
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Draw (5)
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Duress
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Purify the Grave
1 Jace, Memory Adept
I am still working on the SB.
This is a very nice list, although it just tested once, but it gone 2-0 vs 4cc (UBRG). Everything seem stick together.
Any question always welcome!
UPDATES :
- +1 Swamp, -1 Island
So far, I don't find any problem with dissipate. Not countering their creatures doesn't mean we open to their non-creature.
2 MAINDECKED is good for preparation. Cards similar to Dissipate are always good.
You are underestimating the control power of Tamiyo. I've been through many deck (since mine was UW version), and I ALWAYS satisified to Tamiyo.
But, if you choose Sorin, then our play style is different.
Use it as 2-of. With correct manabase, you'll see no problem (in general case).
O-Ring is more versatile.
Combine this with Sweeper is the option.
It's that good. You can see my list for further details.
No, 6 is the ideal number of sweeper, to save your day.
Feeling of Dread is easily MB. But that's differ to each deck.
Agree. But I prefer 2 O-Ring only MB.
No. It's good against aggro. XU is terrible in control mirror.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
I think you would have a problem casting curse of death's hold and vampire nighthawk, seeing as you have only 5 black mana producers. Even if you got both evolving wilds, you can only grab one swamp. Other than that it looks like a pretty good list. Just wondering, why no detention spheres?
Yes, i missed 4 Duress manabase in my SB. Other than that, i'll add 1-2 swamp(s) more. Thanks for your suggestion.
No detention? O-Ring is just more versatile. Personally, I somehow don't like the "Not named Detention Sphere" clause.
Any other suggestion?
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
- Nighthawk and the mana base : first, it's a 3-mana creature. It's very different from a eight-mana sorcery. See it that way. Half our lands produce black mana. Nighthawk requires 2/3, Curse 3/5 and Army 3/8. Of the three, only one requires more than half black to be played at the right time. That's why I think it's a stretch. However, if you're okay about casting it on turn four, sometimes five, then it can be a perfectly valid inclusion, as it's very good. time will tell.
- Entreat and Army are equivalent. Army is more consistant on the kill, since at eight mana, you'll almost always win if they don't answer it twice (flashback). With hard-cast Entreat, you get to pay a lot more to get the kill. However, you can block when you play it, you can play it earlier to save your butt and it can be miracled. I prefer Army, partly for power reasons (resilience and must-answer) and honestly, partly because I've just saved 40$ by playing Army, without much difference.
- Dissipate : I understand, but it's a dead draw against Zombies and Humans, which is my problem. Furthermore, there are list without any noncreature spell you can counter, like Zombies. So maindecked, you're giving a terrible edge to aggro decks with means to fight your counters. Your three drop should help you reach your sweeper, which is why I prefer something like O-Ring, D-Sphere or Lingering in that spot. However, it's really good against slower deck. It depends on your local meta, I guess, but I'd put in in the sideboard.
- Tamiyo is always good, I agree with that sentiment. It stops any permament, can draw you lots in some cases and can win the game with its ultimate. However, I feel that Sorin, who occupies a similar role in the deck, it better in that he gives you life, more easily ramps up for the kill and isn't neutralized by removal. Of course, it all depends on your playstyle. Sorin has a lot of synergy with the rest of my deck, because I have quite a bit of chump blockers who love enblems. This is not an easy choice, I agree. What's sure to me is that both are superior in this build to Jace 4.
- Moz : I don't understand what you mean about Azorius Charm. Could you elaborate?
- 6 Sweepers? Maybe. Not any more than that, that's for sure. 5 seems to be sufficient. It would need more playtesting, you may be right.
- Feeling of Dread, IMO, is only good mainboard in tempo decks, because you'll always have a target to tap (blockers, for instance). In control, though, you don't always want to tap something, so It may not be the best choice main. It's good against aggro, but it's really bad against more durdley decks, against which you want to put pressure and accumulate CA. Since it's a dead card in half the matchups, I tend to relegate it to the sideboard in a control deck.
- Syncopate is better than Dissipate in a three-color tapout deck. In a draw-go style, Dissipate may win, but here, the choice was between Negate and Synco, and Synco won for its exile clause. This deck can't afford to keep three mana open, except in the very late game, and I'd prefer dropping something good instead. Of course, those versions with Charms and Haunting and things that are played on your opponent's turn may prefer Dissipate in their side to deal with late-drops. Also, if you're playing them maindecked, then Dissipate is better, that's not even a question.
- We have no room for nonbasics that don't produce colored mana in a three colored deck with cards that stretch what we can cast. Between the three colored casting cost of Supreme Verdict and the two colored cost of Curse, you really need all your lands to produce colored mana.
- Nephalia Drownyard is way too durdley for the format. You're better off with lands that will give a better edge, Ghost Quarter being one.
- I don't like Jace 3 in that list, because there's no synergy. If he's removed, he's wasted and you've probably given munitions to your opponent. his +1 isn't good enough to be included above Tamiyo, IMO.
- I don't think the best answer to Zombies and Reanimator is graveyard hate. I think we're better off with dealing with the spells themselves instead. Against zombies, you want to be exiling his stuff on the field, and against Reanimator, Synco-ing his reanimator spell will let you deal with his hardcast creatures without a problem.
I love the discussion Keep that coming. A lot of good lists here.
I do understand what you are saying about entreat being cheaper, but i have 3 of army and 3 entreat, and am trying to decide which will go better in the deck
When miracled, Entreat is miles better. However, I don't like to build on the best scenario. I think that building on the average is more accurate. To get that Entreat on turn four or five or even six, when you have two in our deck... Well, let's say the odds aren't in your favor. The odds of having it in your starting hand or draw it too soon or too late are much greater.
Army is more consistent and resilient. Entreat has more variance and the power to block when cast and save your butt on turn five. These are the pros and cons. I prefer Army. Some will prefer Entreat. I don't think here actually is any good answer other than "depends on your playstyle". Maybe the best answer, given Slaughter Games, is one of each. I can't say.
2 syncopate and 2 dissipate is good rather than 4 syncopate why?
imo based on my experience i tried to mainboard 4x syncopate and it didn't go well late game because it became a dead card for me most of the time especially playing against control and agro decks so 2 dissipate would balance it out its kinda costly but it would really help you a lot most of the games because it EXILES like syncopate and also it is more consistent than syncopate in late games...murder would be a good addition but mostly sideboard... i prefer paying 3 than paying 2 of ultimate price because ultimate price is no GFTT or Doom Blade...but it depends on your style of play so its only my oppinion lastly entreat the angel for me entreat is kinda nuisance at times when i draw it when i dont have mana for its miracle and sometimes i need to mulligan because it is in my hand at the beginning so im still searching for a creature that would be a good finisher and the only card that ive tried yet as a finisher is avacyn, angel of hope and desecration demon and also drogskol reaver....i haven't tried griselbrand because i haven't acquired it and maybe ill try to by using proxy first...(that card is kinda expensive )
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
Azorius charm is amazing for stalling. Isnt that what a control deck does?
in my current meta theres a ton of zombies so terminus is a must have 4 of.
murder is way better than ultimate price since most creatures are multi color ultimate price is super situational.
Nighthawk is a nice deterant for not swinging with there big dogs right away again he is more a chump/stall tactic
there is also another list i am going to post in a bit that I had a nice conversation with a dude on cockatrice. using mostly pw jace sorin and tamiyo.
you can also get him back with the angel, he gets sided out in some match-ups but you can also flash back syncopate.
I really like the combination of syncopate and dissipate, because if you have dissipate, then they aren't going to play around syncopate.
Counterspells are in a kind of awkward spot right now between Cavern of Souls and all the uncounterable. I feel that they aren't the stop sign they were. I'd suggest running none at all, but two could be okay. At four, though, I feel you'll often look at a useless card as Abrupt Decay and Dreg Mangler bash your head in. This coming form the guy who ran eight counters in the last Standard
Murder has the problem of needing two black mana for a three-mana cost, which makes it a bit hard to cast effectively. At the same cost, you can get Oblivion Ring, which exiles and is more versatile. If you aren't running against a crapload of enchantment removal, it almost always is the better choice, especially considering the amount of creature with die trigger.
As for finishers, Avacyn is nice, but it's still one more mana than Drogskol or the other Angel, and indestructible can still be beaten by exiling and tapping, which makes it less impressive. It's still a solid finisher, though. As for Desecration Demon, it's not exactly a control finisher. It's the guy that will help midrange more than control. He has a decent body, but doesn't help you stabilize and isn't as impressive as dropping Drogskol or Avacyn or Entreat. He costs four, though, but he's right in the middle of the curve at the very moment you're stabilizing with sweepers and Sorin. It's a good card, but for another deck, methink.
Drogskol is nice because of his lifelink and card draw. It helps you stabilize a lot and gain that life you need to get out of range of those pesky burn spells or haste critters. I like him a lot. Also consider Angel of Serenity in that slot, a lot of people like her.
If I had to make a budget choice, It would be Drogskol and Army of the Damned that would make the cut. They're powerful, have a lot of impact of the board and cost little to no money.
EDIT to answer other posts : I don't like Jace because he doesn't Fog, he doesn't FoF and he doesn't win games. His first will reduce your damage of one, maybe two damage? If he's stopping 3+ damage, you've already lost. Tokens isn't a big enough deck for him to really be a nuisance. FoF? He makes you look at the top three cards of your library and draw one. Not impressive as a -2 on a four-mana 'walkers. His ultimate? If you ever get there, it's still not that impressive. Jace 4 is the definition of win-more : he'll stop few damage, won't give you real CA (consider what Beleren did at a cheaper cost) and may eventually make you cast two spells. Big deal. I do recognize, however, that not a lot of people share my thoughts. I may very well be wrong.
Azorius Charm doesn't deal with the creature. On some, it even hurts you. I prefer a removal that actually deals with them. If I want to stall, I prefer FoD, which is far more efficient for its cost. Azorius Charm would be good if you had a use for every mode. You don't. Maybe it would be good if it weren't conditionnal. As it stands, though, paying two mana to make him cast that Gravecrawler again is far from impressive. O-Ring is far better, even if it costs one more mana.
If you have four Terminus, but on the Supreme Verdicts. Eight sweeper is too much. 4/2 is the max, IMO. Of course, I haven't seen your meta. If you really need eight sweepers, by all means, go ahead and run eight. Some meta are simply like that
If you're playing a full playset of Snappy and Resto, you aren't playing exactly the same deck as I. I haven't playtested that deck, I must admit, but I'm not sure about its matchup against aggro and UW humans. How is it?
Azorious charm has saved me many turns i like its utility and it is semi flexible
+1: Until your next turn, whenever a creature an opponent controls attacks, it gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
-2: Reveal the top three cards of your library. An opponent separates those cards into two piles. Put one pile into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library in any order.
-8: For each player, search that player's library for a nonland card and exile it, then that player shuffles his or her library. You may cast those cards without paying their mana costs.
Azorious charm has saved me many turns i like its utility and it is semi flexible
(Still not as much as izzet charm but ehh)
terminus is the best sweeper in the game and i have started running 2 supreme with 2 more sided
I have also tested out desecration demon and i like him. I dont really have a huge mana problem with swamps on anything i have had double black
1st of all I want to thank the Thread Starter about Army of the Damned. It's brilliant, and is a good finisher. You are awesome, thanks!
This card, is Win or Sweep. If applied, it's win the game faster than Drogskol Reaver. 26 Damage, divided in 13 creatures is no joke.
You'll want at least one of each of them in your esper deck for finisher role.
I'll test the Army soon.
- About Vampire Nighthawk discussion :
Yes, Vamp's awkward. Really. But, in the current standard, there is no better dude to handle the role.
If I have better dudes / maybe finisher such as Army of the Damned I just realized, I will surely drop him.
- About Dissipate and Syncopate discussion
I personally, feel really annoyed if I'm playing blue and I always letting my opponent cast spells. I got to limit their play. That's blue for me. Otherwise, don't play blue. Again, it's personal.
2 Dissipates is enough to counter their big things. This needs a good observation of the game and practice to decide what to counter, since if you have open mana available, it seems all of your opponent's spells are dangerous. But even the dangerous has the most ones. So yeah, it's not easy. But, that's what I like about blue.
I can only have 2 room for counterspell, and a non exact counter in late game doesn't deserve place here. Syncopate is more tempo-ish card than Dissipate
- About Azorius Charm discussion
Let say you have an unsummon with "You can only cast it to target blocking or attacking creatures", with extra white to "Skip your opponent's next draw step".
And also, it never be a dead card. It draws you card. So, 2-3 is minimum number in a control deck that have blue and white.
It's no joke, really. Go test it. With good option decision, it's really good. I also didn't know it until I tested it.
- About Nephalia Drownyard discussion
This card is the main reason I splashed black. It's an semi-unremovable control finisher. It can only removed with Ghost Quarter.
It WINS games. Try it.
It's has synergy with Azorius Charm also.
- About Jace, Memory Adept discussion
It's a finisher. Combined with Nephalia Drownyard. It's an additional Win Con for you. The last Jace is boarded in a control matchup.
It's has synergy with Azorius Charm also.
- About no-room-for-colorless-lands discussion
I never have a serious problem with the manabase. So, yeah. I think my colorless lands brew is good enough, and worth to try.
1 Ghost Quarter for something like Kessig and Nephalia, which will be very annoying in opp's side.
2 Evolving Wilds for fixing
2 Nephalia for additional win con.
- About Jace, Architect of Thought discussion
He is good, although not $50 good. He somehow not fit my deck. That's why I don't use him.
- About Feeling of Dread discussion
You can side that out in control matchup. But since we are more likely to find aggro decks, then it should be mainboarded 4.
By the way, this is my new improved list. Enjoy
2 Island
4 Plains
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Swamp
Mob Control
2 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Terminus
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Lingering Souls
Stall
4 Feeling of Dread
4 Azorius Charm
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Winning Condition
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Drogskol Reaver
1 Army of the Damned
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Drawspell
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Counterspell
2 Dissipate
4 Duress
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Curse of Exhaustion
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Purify the Grave
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Rest in Peace
2 Witchbane Orb
Log :
Just lose 0-3 to mono red
Just win 1-0 to Selesnya Aggro
-1 Army of the Damned +1 Azorius Charm
Add 1 Rest in Peace and 2 Witchbane Orb to SB
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
how did you lose to mono red dude? can you give the details please it might help thanks
btw this is my current rig...i removed sorin and made him as a sideboard...
CREATURES
2x Desecration Demon
2x Drogskol Reaver
2x Snapcaster Mage
ENCHANTMENTS
2x Detention Sphere
2x Oblivion Ring
INSTANT & SORCERY
2x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Dissipate
2x Murder
3x Lingering Souls
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Syncopate
2x Terminus
4x Think Twice
4x Tragic Slip
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
LANDS
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Evolving Wilds
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Island
3x Isolated Chapel
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Plains
3x Swamp
3x Cremate
2x Curse of Death's Hold
1x sever the bloodline
2x Erase
1x sorin, lord of innistrad
2x ultimate price
1x Rest in Peace
2x oblivion ring
1x Witchbane Orb
i haven't got ultimate price yet...i added this because there are a lots of monocolored creatures that needed a spanking like thragtusk(oh i so hate this on jund midrange it made me look bad T_T), vampire nighthawk and craghorn behemoth...
i use jace 4.0 because first i got lucky and got 2 from booster packs second it helps me draw with its mini FOF(imo its kinda FOF to me) and also has great synergy with my sideboarded curse bec of its +1....i sideboarded sorin because i think in this current meta it would be hard to protect your planeswalker with just 1 vamp especially playing with aggro...i tend to remove rather than stall so my tamiyo is just a support for control and also its epic emblem which makes you cast spells repeatedly(your opponent would scope if you have 1 removal and 1 counterspell in your hand best case dissipate )...witchbane orb is a good sideboard against cheese and curses....like my friend told me cremate is a good sideboard for zombies with undying it makes them CREMATED hahahahah...when i was playing today with a friend of mine i mainboarded 2 sever the bloodline and for me it was epic bec of its late game flashback(late game bec it cost 7 to cast @_@)...my mainboard has actually have 3 snappy but my sister wanted 1 badly so i gave 1 to her i added 1 oblivion ring to make it more consistent to draw.... 4 mass removal is good but i havent tested yet if its ok to have 6 or above mass removal...
DECKS
STANDARD:
R/RAMP AGGRO
RRDW
LEGACY:
RGOBLIN SWARMR
CAFFINATOGSC
R//LAND DESTROYER
They are too fast. I can't keep it up.
Something like
T1 : Stromkirk Noble
T2 : Strmkirk Noble, Rakdos Cackler
Ridiculous. Moreover, I didn't draw any single Feeling of Dread, even I have 4. When I get it, it's already too late.
Personally, I think I was just unlucky, because, generally it's not quite a problem for my deck.
1. Cremate < Purify the Grave.
2. How do you handle aggro? With just 2 terminus, and 2 supreme verdict?
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Well, this is how i break down the two cards. I myself feel that Entreat the Angels is stronger.
Entreat the Angels
Pros: Insanely powerful when miracled, Can control amount of angels to create, Can cast on your opponent's turn if Miracled, Angels are big and have evasion, Angels ETB untapped
Cons: Less powerful when hardcasted, Seemingly dead in opening hand, Costs triple W to hardcast
Army of the Damned
Pros: Consistent CMC, Consistent number of creatures created, Has Flashback
Cons: Can't control amount of zombies to create, Zombies are small and don't have evasion, Zombies ETB tapped, Costs triple B to cast both from hand and from graveyard
- Azorius Charm is a Memory Lapse that is more restricted and let the creatures get their ETB effect. For one more mana, the creature is exiled permanently if there's no artifact destruction. For the same cost, I can tap two creatures and have the option of flashback. For one less, I'll be able to chumpblock twice. The cycling option does not make a bad card better. You prefer running Fog Bank, for example, because it stalls just as much, doesn't let your opponent cast that Messenger one more time and actually helps your board position. It can also be played anytime, which means you don't have to wait for your opponent to attack and keep mana open.
Charm can only be good in real draw-go decks, and I don't feel that they'Re the best lists in this meta. In tapout deck, it's really counterproductive, and I playtested it extensively.
- I'll consider Nighthawk. It's a good idea.
- Drownyard : Additionnal wincon? I don't think you can survive that long in the current meta. Maybe I'm wrong, but durdling so long while letting your opponent access his Gravecrawlers, Scavengers and Flashback spells doesn't look like a great idea, especially in a three-color deck.
- Feeling of Dread : It's not good against many decks. It's good against Zombies and Humans. It's crap against Bant control, American control, Bant Midrange (or is it Selesnya?), Jund Midrange, Reanimator... You want that card in the sideboard, unless your meta is really composed of exclusively Zombies and Humans decks. It's possible, really. However, that's a local meta thing.
- Army : Which better ways to spend your mana? You've got a resilient finisher. How many Sweepers do they have that they can spare? With Lingering and Sorin, they should sweep the board a couple of times of roll over and die, that's what will happen.
- Curse : That should be maindecked. Curse of Death's Hold is amazing in so many matchups! Zombies and Humans are screwed, two of them and midrange doesn't look very promising, UW tempo is crying, tokens weep... It's only against control that it isn't good. Two copies maindeck with a few Staff can really lock up a game faster than you can say "your critter has no toughness now".