why play Clone if u can play Cackling Counterpart??.
Because UU1 is occaisonally rather hard to hit (I can't cavern it), and it is not as versatile as Clone, since Clone can hit my opponents creatures. I've had a couple biomancers on the board, cloned an opponents resto angel, bounced the original biomancer with no counters... you get the idea.
I also don't see why you'd suggest a card with UU1 as its cost when you're also a proponent of splashing black. You're just asking to get yourself color screwed.
why play Yeva, Nature's Herald? is the same curve with Master Biomancer.
Because its a good card (and elf) that allows for some interesting and fun combat tricks. Its not like you're running a playset of her or anything.
Golgaria Charm is need x4 main.
I'm still not convinced splashing black is worth it. We will see.
Farseek no is a elf or creature, the core of the deck is creatures, at this point we need a good 2cc creature.
You can't let yourself run subpar creatures like Gyre Sage just because they're a creature/elf. What other options do we have in the 2 drop shot? Gyre Sage is downright awful. Zameck Guildmage is nearly pointless before a biomancer is on the field. Korozda guildmage actually has some decent potential, but again, I'm still not convinced of the need to splash black.
Anyways. A card to consider in the deck is also Cyclonic Rift. Most of the time I'm using Simic Charm to bounce problematic creatures anyways, but with elf mana ramp, it wouldn't be hard at all to overload it at the end of an opponents turn, then you have a clear board to alpha strike in on during your turn.
Golgari charm is a one shot deal. Against any control deck with multiple sweeps, or against any red/black deck with a lot of burn, the one or two Golgari Charms you pull aren't going to be as helpful. Terminus is a huge problem for this deck, but Simic charm at least allows you to save an archdruid/biomancer by putting it back to your hand. I run 2 Negates for this as well, but if I don't have one in my hand, getting an Archdruid/Biomancer back is about the best we can hope for. The Golgari charm might save you from one or two sweepers, but you will still likely run out of Charms before a control deck runs out of sweepers. It also doesn't help you against things like Oblivion Ring or being targets of abilities like Tamiyo's tap, Olivia's vampire control, etc., all of which are very prevelant in the current meta. Creeping Rennaisance allows you to recover even from multiple early burns and take it to the late game. Its especially effective with Tracker's Insight, which lets us pitch cards to the graveyard quickly. We can leave it in the gy until we need it and then cast it for the flashback cost.
I am not saying Golgari Charm is bad for this deck in any way. My only thought is that so far I feel that Bant is the stronger color scheme for Mikhaeus and Gavony to provide some late game reach.
That being said, some could make the argument that the Golgari guildmage is better then Mikhaeus/Gavony. I haven't tested it out yet, but some people on this thread seem to have had some good results with it.
Your points don't make much sense. Against control if they get off 2 or 3 sweepers I've most likely lost any ways. This is a powerhouse swarm deck, not an outlast my opponents control deck. Golgari charm is superior in every way period. I run negates and another charm in the sideboard for control matchup. Creeping Renaissance sucks, it does nothing to the board state the moment its cast and can be counterspelled, when generally by the time the first sweeper hits, they will not be able to counterspell your charm.
"The primary goal is to speed through the deck and try to set up Biovisionary + Infinite Reflection for the instant win. You can just do it the hard way, with Evil Twin helping us get up to four, or we can find the Immortal Servitude or Havengul Lich to try to hit all the Visionaries out of our graveyard. Finally, we can just play an Elf back-up game, with Jarad potentially helping finish the job." -Patrick Chapin
This is the list Patrick Chapin put up on starcity. I thought it was interesting with the black splash. What do you guys think?
Your points don't make much sense. Against control if they get off 2 or 3 sweepers I've most likely lost any ways. This is a powerhouse swarm deck, not an outlast my opponents control deck. Golgari charm is superior in every way period. I run negates and another charm in the sideboard for control matchup. Creeping Renaissance sucks, it does nothing to the board state the moment its cast and can be counterspelled, when generally by the time the first sweeper hits, they will not be able to counterspell your charm.
I 100% disagree. We disagree on the point of the deck though, so it makes sense we disagree on what cards it should include. I regularly win on turn 10+ with this deck on cockatrice. If your attempting to make a deck that is going to win on turn 5/6, then it makes sense why you wouldn't want Creeping Renaissance. However, I think the deck your making isn't going to do very well, we don't have the tools to "swarm" fast enough to win consistently.
"The primary goal is to speed through the deck and try to set up Biovisionary + Infinite Reflection for the instant win. You can just do it the hard way, with Evil Twin helping us get up to four, or we can find the Immortal Servitude or Havengul Lich to try to hit all the Visionaries out of our graveyard. Finally, we can just play an Elf back-up game, with Jarad potentially helping finish the job." -Patrick Chapin
This is the list Patrick Chapin put up on starcity. I thought it was interesting with the black splash. What do you guys think?
The list looks really sweet on paper. I'm a bit skeptical about any deck running Infinite Reflections and no way to protect the combo though. You are bound to get 2 for 1'ed a lot of the time and with no truly committed backup plan (only a couple of 1 offs) a lot relies on Reflections sticking and that's not a place I want to be in. My gut tells me to bump up the Havengul Lich/Immortal Servitude count to commit more to the backup plan an gain back some of the card advantage you've lost by getting 2 for 1'ed.
I could be terribly wrong though. Let's face it I ain't Chapin.
So RK, you really think it's worth going white for a little ramp/Mikaeus/Township and no charms? I really don't think white is the way to go. I personally don't think it's worth cutting the black (which gives you access to Golgari Charm, Korozda Guildmage, etc.). People have been worrying about things board wipes, which Golgari Charm and Dimir Charm deal with in spades. Then again, are you thinking more of a go big, go home strategy? Elves has always been a pretty aggressive build. (Which gives it its appeal.) Black also gives you access to more elves. White doesn't.
Novaryu, what do you mean Golgari Charm is a 1 shot deal? Pretty much most the cards we're discussing are 1 shot deals. If Terminus is such a problem for you, a 2x package of Negate/Dimir Charm would do you better than Simic Charm. Creeping Renaissance hasn't proven itself worthy since it hit the standard scene. That enough "time" to tell us it's bad? It won't be getting any better now. You also said that Golgari charm doesn't help you deal with Oblivion Ring? Did I miss something there. It expressly deals with O-ring/D-sphere. "It also doesn't help you against things like Oblivion Ring..."
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"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
I've been testing this deck on Cockatrice and MWS for a week or something, since I had this crazy idea of putting all cards being permanents, except for Primal Surge. Unless your opponent has mana to Alchemist's Refuge his Supreme Veredict or remove ALL the Laboratory Maniacs at once, you instantly win by drawing with any draw outlet (usually, Prophetic Prism, Prime Speaker Zegana or Elvish Visionary). I like to call this deck SSE: Simic Surge Elves. After I make it, it will rest with the others in the Casual Deck palace, in my closet. Without some sort of reliable removal, I don't have faith on the Elves deck.
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Nothing. All I want is Heroes vs. Monsters spoilers.
Do you mean that Elves need to run removal cards to be viable?
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"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
The more and more I look at the builds with black, the more and more it seems rather appealing.
I played a game with a BUG list last night from ShyGuy. And while the control player won the match (Went to game 3, he eventually got there with Obzedat flickering back and forth) it gave him such a hard time. Golgari Charm was MVP.
I do not like Chapin's list at all. I hate Biovisionary. Simple as that.
Chapin's List is actually pretty cool and can win on the spot very quickly. However...
I really don't understand why Biovisionary is getting all the hype right now when there are better cards to talk about.
I feel like all Biovisionary decks loose to 1 card: Slaughter Games.
Going forward with Biovisionary/Elf plan, we must find a way to protect him.
I don't like the Korozda Guildmage plan. At all.
Gyre Sage is pretty bad, looking at these decks playing much better creatures. And although he is amazing some times, Zameck Guildmage has been iffy.
I'm thinking about going up to 4 Garruk, Primal Hunter. He really is THAT good in this elves list. The card draw and the creature generation is insane with Biomancer out.
4 Breeding Pool
7 Forest
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Why restrict yourself to Simic?
Selesnya charm < Golgari Charm
Spectral Flight just does not belong in this list at all
Rancor is not needed with the use of swarm tactics and craterhoof and actually hinders good starting hands when Elvish archdruid is main enabler.
Best colors for an elf shell is G/U/b imo. You get too many good additions to not use it:
zameck guildmage and gyre sage are bad cards for a GUb build. There are much better cards to fit in their places.
I got a chance to play test mine a bit and its quite fun. I've gotten more than I could ask for out of master biomancer especially with the combo of clone. He himself has turned out to be a win condition and can easily make your dorks and cantrips a force to be reckoned with. I might try out the evil twin I find myself cloning opponents threats especially with biomancer on the field. cyclonic rift as a one of has also proven its worth, if needed you can usually get it off turn 4-5 or if you're in the long game it can pave way for a big swarm with nothing on their field.
Also the talk about deathrite shaman, I don't use him for ramp I use it for the life loss/gain and to keep some hate on the graveyard. His life gain agaisnt agro if he remains on the field can make or break some games.
I'm gonna pull biomass mutation to try garruk, primal hunter.
Ok, so I'm pretty sure the mana base is fine. I decided to mess around with a singleton Alchemist Refuge. The flash trickery can be fun, but isn't something worth relying on. I've thought about cutting 1 card for 1 more mana. The singleton Swamp could be a singleton Island and either could be a guildgate. But either way, the rest of the shock/check lands seem to work great.
As far as the creatures go, I did add a Deathrite Shaman and the clone route. UB versus U doesn't seem like that much of a roadblock given the mana source. I have a playset of Shamans, but I don't know how many to run. It's sad there's no way to fuel the Shaman. Also, I haven't given up on the Zameck Guildmage completely. But could easily drop it down to a 1-of. If I get another Craterhoof Behemoth I'd probably drop a Biomass for it.
I added an Abrupt Decay and Garruk for some variety. Farseek and Charm are feeling pretty much like staples. The rest can be tinkered with. And, as is obvious, I haven't even started on a board yet. I still think Dimir Charm isn't the worst if I'm worried about Terminus, Bonfire, etc. But there's a lot of options in the non-creature spot.
We're getting there! A primer should hopefully be forthcoming, and we shall see how Elves does during FNMs and what not.
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
Ok, so I'm pretty sure the mana base is fine. I decided to mess around with a singleton Alchemist Refuge. The flash trickery can be fun, but isn't something worth relying on. I've thought about cutting 1 card for 1 more mana. The singleton Swamp could be a singleton Island and either could be a guildgate. But either way, the rest of the shock/check lands seem to work great.
As far as the creatures go, I did add a Deathrite Shaman and the clone route. UB versus U doesn't seem like that much of a roadblock given the mana source. I have a playset of Shamans, but I don't know how many to run. It's sad there's no way to fuel the Shaman. Also, I haven't given up on the Zameck Guildmage completely. But could easily drop it down to a 1-of. If I get another Craterhoof Behemoth I'd probably drop a Biomass for it.
I added an Abrupt Decay and Garruk for some variety. Farseek and Charm are feeling pretty much like staples. The rest can be tinkered with. And, as is obvious, I haven't even started on a board yet. I still think Dimir Charm isn't the worst if I'm worried about Terminus, Bonfire, etc. But there's a lot of options in the non-creature spot.
We're getting there! A primer should hopefully be forthcoming, and we shall see how Elves does during FNMs and what not.
There is a primer I just got involved in recently under the competitive developing forums located here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=483544 some good stuff going on there too.
I also like the idea of dimir charm for the sideboard to deal with sweepers. The kill ability on it isn't too bad either.
I'm not the biggest fan of farseek unless you find yourself short on the right kind of mana when you need it. I moved my cavern of souls to the side and replaced them with a forest and an island.
As for deathrite shaman I like him as a 2-3 of if you want to make use of his ramp the easiest way is adding 2-4 evolving wilds to your mana base. simic charm is a nice 1-3 of in the deck too, the early game hexproof/bouce has been very good to me, I just wish the bounce would hit a permanent instead of just a creature.
Also if you put your numbers before the card name it'll properly link your decklist.
For you not to realize that Mono Red is best deck in the format, if not first then most certainly top 2, you must not have been paying any attention to the meta game, online or paper tournaments..
If you truly believe that Mono Red looses to one Supreme Verdict, then I must assume your information comes from illegitimate sources, for example, only very bad mono red players loose to Supreme Verdict, sometimes it can't be helped, but anyone competent enough with am aggro decks knows how to work around wraths - Which is why, in this format full of Verdicts, Revelations and Thragtusks, Mono Red still reigns over them...
What does Mono Red get from Gatecrash?
Not much, but it didn't need to, what it did get was an Insane 3 drop in Boros Reckoner and skullcrack...
It could conceivably be very easy to attribute your victory over mono red, as simply playing a rogue deck...
I didn't come to this thread to flame anyone, I'm sincerely interested in the deck, but your information is misguided, don't get ahead of yourself...
When Mono Red is the best deck in any given format, you'll be surprised with how many archetypes in can single handily nullify and render useless
I just felt I had to comment on this. Sure, mono red is a good deck, but it is absolutely ridiculous to say it is the best deck out there. Esper Control, Jund, Bant Control, Junk Tokens, Bant Auras, Selesnya Midrange, Naya Aggro, Naya Midrange, Rakdos Aggro, etc., etc., have all been placing in the top 8 of tournaments. Mono Red has also placed in the top 8, but it certainly has not separated from the pack. Then you start throwing in the oddball decks like Omnidoor--which can switch to full on lifegain in G2 and often can win game 1 if mono red doesn't get a fast start--and various UWx control decks packing at least 6 sweepers with Supreme Verdict and Terminus, and 3-4 Detention Sphere, which often can ruin the field for mono red.
Post Gatecrash, if I want to play fast aggro, I'd probably be leaning towards Boros or Naya over mono red. I think the Boros Charm is so effective against control that it makes it difficult to play aggro in different colors.
That's what I get for rushing. Lol. I'm definitely looking forward to where this is going. If even just a few fun FNM games. I've been a competitive (read: nuts decks w/ winmore goals) player way too long. That, plus 95% of my...nearly 20 years of playing this game has been control. (Ugh, that's such a long ass time!) A little tribal aggro should be fun!
I'll probably throw in 2 Dimir Charms. Farseek just gives you a little bit extra speed. Plus fuel for your Deathrite Shaman. Personally I'm not looking to use the Shaman as ramp. But it could be hammered out a little bit? Ultimately the other two abilities help when and where it can.
How many NON-Elves, NON-Behemoth are you running?
I'm still not sold on Simic Charm as I was when I first started brewing this. A 1 of maybe 2 might work, but the giant growth is irrelevant, the hexproof is nice, but regen from Golgari Charm just work better if you're worried about things like spot removal?
Again, this is fun!
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An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
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But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
Here is my updated list, not much has really changed just a few minor adjustments that I'm trying out, the only non-elf/behemoth creature I have is evil twin/clone.
I was playing an esper control deck with all the bells and whistles before I switched to this route. I normally prefer an all out green trample deck, but these elves really catch my fancy.
And I can't agree with you more, I'm having a blast figuring out this deck
I'm seriously considering Garruk Relentless over Garruk, Primal Hunter. The ability to put out creatures stays the same (just in different size...plus deathtouching X/X Wolfs make me smile), a little bit of removal, the ability to tutor for a creature just make it appeal a bit more? It's definitely worth testing both.
4x Evil Twins? Why does that just feel like 1 or 2 too many?
But so far so good!
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An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
I have 2 of each Garruk so I planned on trying both out eventually, just the card advantage on garruk, primal hunter seems relevant for the deck but I can see where the ping + tutor + deathtouch blockers from garruk relentless would be pertinent for this deck too.
I went with 4 evil twin because I was using 4 Clone from my original list and never was sad to see them in my hand. There was always some threat on my opponents field or something worth doubling on mine.
Novaryu, what do you mean Golgari Charm is a 1 shot deal? Pretty much most the cards we're discussing are 1 shot deals. If Terminus is such a problem for you, a 2x package of Negate/Dimir Charm would do you better than Simic Charm. Creeping Renaissance hasn't proven itself worthy since it hit the standard scene. That enough "time" to tell us it's bad?
I've seen in other posts that you claim to have been playing magic for a long time, so I don't know if this is just you trying to be argumentative or if your really that ignorant of the standard scene, but Creeping Renaissance was a very popular card in standard when it was released. A simple deck search on http://magic.tcgplayer.com shows that in almost every major tournament there were top 8 decks containing that card. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but post after post you come to this thread with your terrible ideas of what should or shouldn't be in this deck, and I am not going to let your ignorance derail the thread. Creeping Renaissance was and is a solid standard card against control.
2x Negate, 2xSimic Charm, 2xCreeping Renaissance is a superior package to whatever your bringing with black.
So, this is quite a bit different than what most people here seem to be playing. I considered not posting so as not to mess up all yall's flow but heck, you decide if you like it.
This deck as been doing very well in my gauntlet testing here in Tampa (the gauntlet is Naya Humans, Esper Control, Orzhov Big, Rakdos Black, Bant Midrange). I'm not saying it wins every match but it can win games.
As you can see it takes more of a pure ramp approach than most decks here, racing to land turn 4 big fatties, stabilize, then crush the opponent through a weight of either creature size or card advantage. The main tech I'd like to point out to you guys is Increasing Savagery + Gyre Sage. This package can be slotted into almost any elf deck as it helps you to be aggressive and to ramp at the same time.
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I've seen in other posts that you claim to have been playing magic for a long time, so I don't know if this is just you trying to be argumentative or if your really that ignorant of the standard scene, but Creeping Renaissance was a very popular card in standard when it was released. A simple deck search on http://magic.tcgplayer.com shows that in almost every major tournament there were top 8 decks containing that card. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but post after post you come to this thread with your terrible ideas of what should or shouldn't be in this deck, and I am not going to let your ignorance derail the thread. Creeping Renaissance was and is a solid standard card against control.
2x Negate, 2xSimic Charm, 2xCreeping Renaissance is a superior package to whatever your bringing with black.
creeping renaissance is a good card, but for things like bonfire of the damned and supreme verdict I'd rather be using my golgari charm to prevent the wipe. If you end up in a spot where you're relying on your elves for a few extra mana you're not guaranteed to get renaissance off on your next turn after a turn 3-5 sweeper, and it doesn't do anything against Terminus. I would rather carry a counter magic side using things like dimir charm or negate than relying on renaissance to bring back my board, and besides it'll take you minimum 2 turns to recover your board using renaissance. I like the card, just not for this deck.
I agree with what your saying, and its all things I thought to myself as well. It could be that the future of this deck doesn't include it, because your right in the sense of it doesn't do anything against Terminus (either does Golgari though, I think thats why we can all agree on 2xNegate or Dimir Charms), and it sets you back a few turns replaying your cards even against Bonfire/Verdict.
The biggest thing, to me, that still sets it apart from Golgari Charm is the flashback. This is a huge deal, for a few reasons. One, in all the lists I've seen posted, people are running 2-3 Golgari Charm and 2-3 Negate. For some of us, swap the Golgari Charm with a Simic Charm. Either way, at most we're running 6 spells that are going to help us against a wipe. Almost every control deck is going to run at least 8+ wipe, in addition to their Detention Orbs, Tamiyo's, etc. Statistically, they are going to wipe/burn you more then you can protect from the wipe. This deck is not an aggro deck either, no matter how much some people are trying for it. It takes time to get a biomancer down and start throwing down pumped creatures. Its all about stabilizing your board, and then throwing down the alpha strike Behemoth or EOT (opponents turn) Blustersqual into a Biomass mutation, or something along those lines. Every so often we can wear someone down with pumped up creatures, but I've found that to be the case less often then alpha strike wins.
With one card being able to retrieve all your creatures not once, but twice, its virtual card advantage against all control. On top of that it interacts well with Trackers Insight.
Again, I am not saying this card 100% deserves a spot in this deck. I just want people to seriously consider it, and do some playtesting with it before they write it off. I'd really enjoy hearing some feedback from others who have played a few games with it.
I run it in my board for sweeping control decks, it's worked really well for me to the point I'd like it main, I wouldn't know what to swap out though.
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Because UU1 is occaisonally rather hard to hit (I can't cavern it), and it is not as versatile as Clone, since Clone can hit my opponents creatures. I've had a couple biomancers on the board, cloned an opponents resto angel, bounced the original biomancer with no counters... you get the idea.
I also don't see why you'd suggest a card with UU1 as its cost when you're also a proponent of splashing black. You're just asking to get yourself color screwed.
Because its a good card (and elf) that allows for some interesting and fun combat tricks. Its not like you're running a playset of her or anything.
I'm still not convinced splashing black is worth it. We will see.
You can't let yourself run subpar creatures like Gyre Sage just because they're a creature/elf. What other options do we have in the 2 drop shot? Gyre Sage is downright awful. Zameck Guildmage is nearly pointless before a biomancer is on the field. Korozda guildmage actually has some decent potential, but again, I'm still not convinced of the need to splash black.
Anyways. A card to consider in the deck is also Cyclonic Rift. Most of the time I'm using Simic Charm to bounce problematic creatures anyways, but with elf mana ramp, it wouldn't be hard at all to overload it at the end of an opponents turn, then you have a clear board to alpha strike in on during your turn.
Your points don't make much sense. Against control if they get off 2 or 3 sweepers I've most likely lost any ways. This is a powerhouse swarm deck, not an outlast my opponents control deck. Golgari charm is superior in every way period. I run negates and another charm in the sideboard for control matchup. Creeping Renaissance sucks, it does nothing to the board state the moment its cast and can be counterspelled, when generally by the time the first sweeper hits, they will not be able to counterspell your charm.
1 Immortal Servitude
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Infinite Reflection
1 Havengul Lich
2 Hinterland Harbor
4 Evil Twin
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Breeding Pool
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
"The primary goal is to speed through the deck and try to set up Biovisionary + Infinite Reflection for the instant win. You can just do it the hard way, with Evil Twin helping us get up to four, or we can find the Immortal Servitude or Havengul Lich to try to hit all the Visionaries out of our graveyard. Finally, we can just play an Elf back-up game, with Jarad potentially helping finish the job." -Patrick Chapin
This is the list Patrick Chapin put up on starcity. I thought it was interesting with the black splash. What do you guys think?
I 100% disagree. We disagree on the point of the deck though, so it makes sense we disagree on what cards it should include. I regularly win on turn 10+ with this deck on cockatrice. If your attempting to make a deck that is going to win on turn 5/6, then it makes sense why you wouldn't want Creeping Renaissance. However, I think the deck your making isn't going to do very well, we don't have the tools to "swarm" fast enough to win consistently.
Time will tell which of us is right.
The list looks really sweet on paper. I'm a bit skeptical about any deck running Infinite Reflections and no way to protect the combo though. You are bound to get 2 for 1'ed a lot of the time and with no truly committed backup plan (only a couple of 1 offs) a lot relies on Reflections sticking and that's not a place I want to be in. My gut tells me to bump up the Havengul Lich/Immortal Servitude count to commit more to the backup plan an gain back some of the card advantage you've lost by getting 2 for 1'ed.
I could be terribly wrong though. Let's face it I ain't Chapin.
Novaryu, what do you mean Golgari Charm is a 1 shot deal? Pretty much most the cards we're discussing are 1 shot deals. If Terminus is such a problem for you, a 2x package of Negate/Dimir Charm would do you better than Simic Charm. Creeping Renaissance hasn't proven itself worthy since it hit the standard scene. That enough "time" to tell us it's bad? It won't be getting any better now. You also said that Golgari charm doesn't help you deal with Oblivion Ring? Did I miss something there. It expressly deals with O-ring/D-sphere. "It also doesn't help you against things like Oblivion Ring..."
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
Do you mean that Elves need to run removal cards to be viable?
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
I played a game with a BUG list last night from ShyGuy. And while the control player won the match (Went to game 3, he eventually got there with Obzedat flickering back and forth) it gave him such a hard time. Golgari Charm was MVP.
I do not like Chapin's list at all. I hate Biovisionary. Simple as that.Chapin's List is actually pretty cool and can win on the spot very quickly. However...
I really don't understand why Biovisionary is getting all the hype right now when there are better cards to talk about.
I feel like all Biovisionary decks loose to 1 card: Slaughter Games.
Going forward with Biovisionary/Elf plan, we must find a way to protect him.
I don't like the Korozda Guildmage plan. At all.
Gyre Sage is pretty bad, looking at these decks playing much better creatures. And although he is amazing some times, Zameck Guildmage has been iffy.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
2 Armada Wurm
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Gyre Sage
3 Master Biomancer
3 Restoration Angel
4 Spire Tracer
3 Thragtusk
4 Rancor
2 Selesnya Charm
4 Spectral Flight
4 Breeding Pool
7 Forest
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Why restrict yourself to Simic?
Selesnya charm < Golgari Charm
Spectral Flight just does not belong in this list at all
Rancor is not needed with the use of swarm tactics and craterhoof and actually hinders good starting hands when Elvish archdruid is main enabler.
Best colors for an elf shell is G/U/b imo. You get too many good additions to not use it:
-Abrubt Decay
-Golgari Charm
-Deathrite Shaman
I got a chance to play test mine a bit and its quite fun. I've gotten more than I could ask for out of master biomancer especially with the combo of clone. He himself has turned out to be a win condition and can easily make your dorks and cantrips a force to be reckoned with. I might try out the evil twin I find myself cloning opponents threats especially with biomancer on the field.
cyclonic rift as a one of has also proven its worth, if needed you can usually get it off turn 4-5 or if you're in the long game it can pave way for a big swarm with nothing on their field.
Also the talk about deathrite shaman, I don't use him for ramp I use it for the life loss/gain and to keep some hate on the graveyard. His life gain agaisnt agro if he remains on the field can make or break some games.
I'm gonna pull biomass mutation to try garruk, primal hunter.
Alchemist's Refuge
4x Breeding Pool
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Forest
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
2x Woodland Cemetary
4x Arbor Elf x4
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Korozda Guildmage
4x Master Biomancer
2x Zameck Guildmage
Abrupt Decay
2x Biomass Mutation
4x Farseek
4x Golgari Charm
Ok, so I'm pretty sure the mana base is fine. I decided to mess around with a singleton Alchemist Refuge. The flash trickery can be fun, but isn't something worth relying on. I've thought about cutting 1 card for 1 more mana. The singleton Swamp could be a singleton Island and either could be a guildgate. But either way, the rest of the shock/check lands seem to work great.
As far as the creatures go, I did add a Deathrite Shaman and the clone route. UB versus U doesn't seem like that much of a roadblock given the mana source. I have a playset of Shamans, but I don't know how many to run. It's sad there's no way to fuel the Shaman. Also, I haven't given up on the Zameck Guildmage completely. But could easily drop it down to a 1-of. If I get another Craterhoof Behemoth I'd probably drop a Biomass for it.
I added an Abrupt Decay and Garruk for some variety. Farseek and Charm are feeling pretty much like staples. The rest can be tinkered with. And, as is obvious, I haven't even started on a board yet. I still think Dimir Charm isn't the worst if I'm worried about Terminus, Bonfire, etc. But there's a lot of options in the non-creature spot.
We're getting there! A primer should hopefully be forthcoming, and we shall see how Elves does during FNMs and what not.
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
There is a primer I just got involved in recently under the competitive developing forums located here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=483544 some good stuff going on there too.
I also like the idea of dimir charm for the sideboard to deal with sweepers. The kill ability on it isn't too bad either.
I'm not the biggest fan of farseek unless you find yourself short on the right kind of mana when you need it. I moved my cavern of souls to the side and replaced them with a forest and an island.
As for deathrite shaman I like him as a 2-3 of if you want to make use of his ramp the easiest way is adding 2-4 evolving wilds to your mana base.
simic charm is a nice 1-3 of in the deck too, the early game hexproof/bouce has been very good to me, I just wish the bounce would hit a permanent instead of just a creature.
Also if you put your numbers before the card name it'll properly link your decklist.
I just felt I had to comment on this. Sure, mono red is a good deck, but it is absolutely ridiculous to say it is the best deck out there. Esper Control, Jund, Bant Control, Junk Tokens, Bant Auras, Selesnya Midrange, Naya Aggro, Naya Midrange, Rakdos Aggro, etc., etc., have all been placing in the top 8 of tournaments. Mono Red has also placed in the top 8, but it certainly has not separated from the pack. Then you start throwing in the oddball decks like Omnidoor--which can switch to full on lifegain in G2 and often can win game 1 if mono red doesn't get a fast start--and various UWx control decks packing at least 6 sweepers with Supreme Verdict and Terminus, and 3-4 Detention Sphere, which often can ruin the field for mono red.
Post Gatecrash, if I want to play fast aggro, I'd probably be leaning towards Boros or Naya over mono red. I think the Boros Charm is so effective against control that it makes it difficult to play aggro in different colors.
I'll probably throw in 2 Dimir Charms. Farseek just gives you a little bit extra speed. Plus fuel for your Deathrite Shaman. Personally I'm not looking to use the Shaman as ramp. But it could be hammered out a little bit? Ultimately the other two abilities help when and where it can.
How many NON-Elves, NON-Behemoth are you running?
I'm still not sold on Simic Charm as I was when I first started brewing this. A 1 of maybe 2 might work, but the giant growth is irrelevant, the hexproof is nice, but regen from Golgari Charm just work better if you're worried about things like spot removal?
Again, this is fun!
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
4 Arbor Elf
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Master Biomancer
4 Evil Twin
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
Spells (12):
4 Golgari Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Simic Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Land (23):
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Forest
3 Island
2-4 Dimir Charm
4 Witchbane Orb
I was playing an esper control deck with all the bells and whistles before I switched to this route. I normally prefer an all out green trample deck, but these elves really catch my fancy.
And I can't agree with you more, I'm having a blast figuring out this deck
I'm seriously considering Garruk Relentless over Garruk, Primal Hunter. The ability to put out creatures stays the same (just in different size...plus deathtouching X/X Wolfs make me smile), a little bit of removal, the ability to tutor for a creature just make it appeal a bit more? It's definitely worth testing both.
4x Evil Twins? Why does that just feel like 1 or 2 too many?
But so far so good!
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
I went with 4 evil twin because I was using 4 Clone from my original list and never was sad to see them in my hand. There was always some threat on my opponents field or something worth doubling on mine.
I've seen in other posts that you claim to have been playing magic for a long time, so I don't know if this is just you trying to be argumentative or if your really that ignorant of the standard scene, but Creeping Renaissance was a very popular card in standard when it was released. A simple deck search on http://magic.tcgplayer.com shows that in almost every major tournament there were top 8 decks containing that card. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but post after post you come to this thread with your terrible ideas of what should or shouldn't be in this deck, and I am not going to let your ignorance derail the thread. Creeping Renaissance was and is a solid standard card against control.
2x Negate, 2xSimic Charm, 2xCreeping Renaissance is a superior package to whatever your bringing with black.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Armada Wurm
2x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Borborygmos Enraged
4x Elvish Archdruid
2x Gruul Ragebeast
3x Gyre Sage
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
3x Thragtusk
Instant (5)
3x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Syncopate
4x Breeding Pool
4x Forest
2x Hinterland Harbor
2x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
2x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
Sorcery (5)
2x Bonfire of the Damned
3x Increasing Savagery
Enchantment (4)
4x Verdant Haven
2x Biomass Mutation
1x Clan Defiance
2x Creeping Renaissance
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Gruul Ragebeast
4x Master Biomancer
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
This deck as been doing very well in my gauntlet testing here in Tampa (the gauntlet is Naya Humans, Esper Control, Orzhov Big, Rakdos Black, Bant Midrange). I'm not saying it wins every match but it can win games.
As you can see it takes more of a pure ramp approach than most decks here, racing to land turn 4 big fatties, stabilize, then crush the opponent through a weight of either creature size or card advantage. The main tech I'd like to point out to you guys is Increasing Savagery + Gyre Sage. This package can be slotted into almost any elf deck as it helps you to be aggressive and to ramp at the same time.
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"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
creeping renaissance is a good card, but for things like bonfire of the damned and supreme verdict I'd rather be using my golgari charm to prevent the wipe. If you end up in a spot where you're relying on your elves for a few extra mana you're not guaranteed to get renaissance off on your next turn after a turn 3-5 sweeper, and it doesn't do anything against Terminus. I would rather carry a counter magic side using things like dimir charm or negate than relying on renaissance to bring back my board, and besides it'll take you minimum 2 turns to recover your board using renaissance. I like the card, just not for this deck.
The biggest thing, to me, that still sets it apart from Golgari Charm is the flashback. This is a huge deal, for a few reasons. One, in all the lists I've seen posted, people are running 2-3 Golgari Charm and 2-3 Negate. For some of us, swap the Golgari Charm with a Simic Charm. Either way, at most we're running 6 spells that are going to help us against a wipe. Almost every control deck is going to run at least 8+ wipe, in addition to their Detention Orbs, Tamiyo's, etc. Statistically, they are going to wipe/burn you more then you can protect from the wipe. This deck is not an aggro deck either, no matter how much some people are trying for it. It takes time to get a biomancer down and start throwing down pumped creatures. Its all about stabilizing your board, and then throwing down the alpha strike Behemoth or EOT (opponents turn) Blustersqual into a Biomass mutation, or something along those lines. Every so often we can wear someone down with pumped up creatures, but I've found that to be the case less often then alpha strike wins.
With one card being able to retrieve all your creatures not once, but twice, its virtual card advantage against all control. On top of that it interacts well with Trackers Insight.
Again, I am not saying this card 100% deserves a spot in this deck. I just want people to seriously consider it, and do some playtesting with it before they write it off. I'd really enjoy hearing some feedback from others who have played a few games with it.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity