just a headsup..im mostly a white player, so im not really that familiar with the way how RDW works or how it should work..so please forgive me if this might seem a stupid question..
i was just wondering why nobody is really giving vexing devil that much of a chance, all i keep on hearing about is "he's just that bad". i dunno..
please see my reasons:
- 1cc for a 4/3 creature
- 1cc for a possible 4 dmg
- 1cc that could be a problem if left unanswered early on
- very good 1st turn drop if deck tends to be aggro
- cast 3 of it until 3rd turn, either opponent would be down to 8 or face 3 4/3 creatures that could beat the hell out of any early creatures
- what about vexing devil + undying evil combo?
I'm primary a legacy player, but even in the one deck that should see him - Burn - it doesn't. Why? He never does what he wants you to do. Drop him turn 1? He either eats removal, or he burns for 4 and your opponent goes '...okay.' Drop him turn 4? He clogs up the board, doing nothing, or gets eaten by a terminus or something. He will NEVER kill your opponent.
We won't even consider lightning bolt here, as that is in a class of it's own. Why does Lave Spike see play but not Vexing Devil? Because Lava Spike kills people dead. If your opponent is at three and they eat a lava spike, they're dead, no ifs, ands, or buts. If your opponent is at three life and you drop a vexing devil, they'll say 'Creature.' and then proceed to chump it, kill it, or otherwise negate it's presence.
Vexing Devil + Undying Evil is a nonbo. Undying Evil in general is just...bad. There's a concept called dependence. Undying Evil is dependent on you having a creature to make undying, and Vexing Devil is dependent on Undying Evil to not suck. The chances of you having both and the mana open to play both, without either getting hit with a Syncopate or whatever, or without Devil getting hit with a Detention Sphere, Oblivion Ring, etc. are very, very low.
In standard, Stromkirk Noble is and will always be a MUCH better turn 1 play. He puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on your opponent - he's the sort of thing you have to kill, or it will kill you. When I played standard last season, RDW was my thing for a while, and I got a lot of wins with him. Never even considered the devil for the above reasons.
The main reason it is bad is that it gives the opponent a choice of which is better for them - which is generally something you dont want to do. since neither half is guaranteed to occur, it is not that reliable, unless both options would be beneficial to the person playing them. ex: i played vexing devil in a G/R modern dredge, where I would either get 4 dmg + a creature in the yard for splinterfright/boneyard wurm, or get a 4/3, which I would suicide bomb with until it died to get creatures into yard. But this is a very limited situation.
In most aggro decks there are cards that just do more. Most of the time he's good for 4 damage on turn 1.
My Champion of the Parish usually gets in for 6 or more, and has more synergy in the deck.
Also it just comes down to the fact that it gives your opponent a choice. If they have a answer for a 4/3 creature they'll let it stay then get rid of it. If they don't they take the 4 damage and move on.
It's a fine card, it has a role to fill in decks like Legacy/Modern burn.... but for the most part it's just not good enough to replace the current one drop creatures.
He has some use in RUG since he can help with early evolve triggers as he has to enter the battlefield to trigger. T1 Cloudfin Raptor into T2 Experiment One and then Devil isn't bad.
I don't think he's that bad.
i think he can be a better option at times than cackler.
RDW on the play against Esper Control
T1 you play Cackler
They play a tapped land
T2 you play Ash Zealot and swing for 4
They play a checkland, Augur, showing you Az charm
T3 you play BTE, Searing Spear, swing for 4
At this point Cackler has done as much damage as Vexing Devil and hasn't been answered
The only time I see him doing more work than cackler is if you were speed blocked and you somehow couldn't remove the speedblock. However at that point they are probably waiting for you to extend into a wrath. If the card they show you is feeling of dread instead of Az charm having the extra body looks even better. There is a lot of discussion about Vexing Devil in the RDW forum and there isn't a good case for him anywhere. Evolve is likely the best use of him as a creature.
He doesn't allow you to develop your board directly, but there is some circumstances where he could shine, in particular, Evolve or with Orzhov Charm. It's a cheap way to get your Experiment Ones and other evolvers big and makes it harder for them to justify taking the damage, while the Charm lets you cast him up at times that could be not so opportune for your opponent to take the 4.
He should never be the focus of the deck though. At most, I think 2 or 3 of is best.
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Master Biomancer's flavor text should read 'My DNA - I put that ---- in everything'.
When you have a gash in your arm and need stitches? He amputates your arm. When your whole arm is diseased and messed up beyond hope and needs to go? He gives you stitches.
How good would it be if you flipped a coin for the effect? If you don't think it would be good enough as a coin flip, remember that it's basically just a coin flip card that your opponent gets to reflip until they get what they want.
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yes, it is that bad. the card should not be viewed as a creature. think of the card as being a Lava Spike variant that lets your opponent counter it with a creature removal spell.
I personally do not think it is that bad. I personally feel that it is pretty good in standard. Yes, sometimes it blows but any card can blow in some points of the game.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
it might not be the best choice but saying its 100% "bad" is just plain foolish.
just because there may be better options in certain situations doesnt mean it's "bad"
just a headsup..im mostly a white player, so im not really that familiar with the way how RDW works or how it should work..so please forgive me if this might seem a stupid question..
i was just wondering why nobody is really giving vexing devil that much of a chance, all i keep on hearing about is "he's just that bad". i dunno..
please see my reasons:
- 1cc for a 4/3 creature
Only if your opponent wants it to be (this will rarely be the case and certainly not on turn 1)
- 1cc for a possible 4 dmg
Only if your opponent wants it to be. Even then spending a card to do 4 damage isn't very good in a format where Revelation and Thragtusk are so prominent. Boros Charm is only good because of the combination of all the modes.
- 1cc that could be a problem if left unanswered early on
Except that he answers himself so there is always an answer available.
- very good 1st turn drop if deck tends to be aggro
An aggro deck would much rather have a creature on the board than throw away a card to do 4 damage on turn 1. A creature on board demands an answer from the opponent while a Vexing Devil answers itself.
- cast 3 of it until 3rd turn, either opponent would be down to 8 or face 3 4/3 creatures that could beat the hell out of any early creatures
Ignoring the fact that it's unlikely you'll draw 3 of them, they'll never be letting this card be a 4/3 if they don't have any way to deal with the creature. You might be able to nut someone out of the game when you draw 3 Vexing Devils in your opening hand but that doesn't make up for the times when you draw just 1 and it's awful.
The only place for Vexing Devil is really Modern Burn. Legacy has better stuff, and in Standard you really want repeatable damage to overcome lifegain (Skullcrack is an exception, because it stops said lifegain).
It really is just bad. Its a punisher card (one that give your opponent the choice of two bad things), and punisher cards are just never good. The problem is that you're going to get the worst part of the card 100% of the time throughout the game.
I feel like people defending it haven't actually played it against real decks/players/at all
Its only terrible in standard b/c his architype isn't good here. Like if we randomly re-printed stoneforge mystic in standard it would suck b/c its architype isn't here. We don't have swords, batterskull or any other overpowered equipment. Likewise Vexing devil doesn't see play as it needs to be in a burn deck. Some zoo decks also experimented with him.
Legacy burn DOES use him. I use him as a 4x in my legacy burn. Some legacy burn players don't use him but thats for consistancy choices. he can be very powerful but he isnt' consistant.
Why is he going for $7.50 right now at the low end? I got some for $5 a few months ago. I never see him in standard. Where's he seeing so much play that he's worth that much?
He isn't, but people love to try him anyway. Some people run him in modern/legacy burn, because they think R for 4 damage is a good deal, which it would be...if it didn't have the browbeat problem. People in standard keep trying to make burn work in standard, and they use him because he's one of the best burn cards in standard...which says a lot about the state of red in standard tbh.
In short, he's popular, but that doesn't make him good.
People no longer suggesting Vexing Devil as a card is #2 on my list of reasons to look forward to rotation. It's terrible, but bad players can't help thinking it's some amazing undiscovered tech for RDW.
#1 is obviously loltusk.
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i was just wondering why nobody is really giving vexing devil that much of a chance, all i keep on hearing about is "he's just that bad". i dunno..
please see my reasons:
- 1cc for a 4/3 creature
- 1cc for a possible 4 dmg
- 1cc that could be a problem if left unanswered early on
- very good 1st turn drop if deck tends to be aggro
- cast 3 of it until 3rd turn, either opponent would be down to 8 or face 3 4/3 creatures that could beat the hell out of any early creatures
- what about vexing devil + undying evil combo?
please enlighten me..
We won't even consider lightning bolt here, as that is in a class of it's own. Why does Lave Spike see play but not Vexing Devil? Because Lava Spike kills people dead. If your opponent is at three and they eat a lava spike, they're dead, no ifs, ands, or buts. If your opponent is at three life and you drop a vexing devil, they'll say 'Creature.' and then proceed to chump it, kill it, or otherwise negate it's presence.
Vexing Devil + Undying Evil is a nonbo. Undying Evil in general is just...bad. There's a concept called dependence. Undying Evil is dependent on you having a creature to make undying, and Vexing Devil is dependent on Undying Evil to not suck. The chances of you having both and the mana open to play both, without either getting hit with a Syncopate or whatever, or without Devil getting hit with a Detention Sphere, Oblivion Ring, etc. are very, very low.
In standard, Stromkirk Noble is and will always be a MUCH better turn 1 play. He puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on your opponent - he's the sort of thing you have to kill, or it will kill you. When I played standard last season, RDW was my thing for a while, and I got a lot of wins with him. Never even considered the devil for the above reasons.
Hope that made it clear.
Loam Pox
Standard:
Boros Burn
overall, people prefer guarentees.
My WTB - EDH stuff
My Champion of the Parish usually gets in for 6 or more, and has more synergy in the deck.
Also it just comes down to the fact that it gives your opponent a choice. If they have a answer for a 4/3 creature they'll let it stay then get rid of it. If they don't they take the 4 damage and move on.
It's a fine card, it has a role to fill in decks like Legacy/Modern burn.... but for the most part it's just not good enough to replace the current one drop creatures.
Standard-
WRG-Naya Humans
EDH-
RUG- Animar
RW- Brion Stoutarm
He doesn't allow you to develop your board which is everything for a R deck. If they have the board/removal he doesn't even get in for 4.
He's quite possibly the worst creature to get Az charmed as well
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i think he can be a better option at times than cackler.
RDW on the play against Esper Control
The only time I see him doing more work than cackler is if you were speed blocked and you somehow couldn't remove the speedblock. However at that point they are probably waiting for you to extend into a wrath. If the card they show you is feeling of dread instead of Az charm having the extra body looks even better. There is a lot of discussion about Vexing Devil in the RDW forum and there isn't a good case for him anywhere. Evolve is likely the best use of him as a creature.
He should never be the focus of the deck though. At most, I think 2 or 3 of is best.
When you have a gash in your arm and need stitches? He amputates your arm. When your whole arm is diseased and messed up beyond hope and needs to go? He gives you stitches.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
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I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Longer answer: See Metamorph
Currently Playing:
Brewing for Rotation
And some EDH
When he comes out turn 1-2 and pings for 4, he already did his job.
When he comes out turn 1-2 and they let you keep it, then answer him with a 2 mana removal spell? loloksure. That's not a losing scenario at all guys.
just because there may be better options in certain situations doesnt mean it's "bad"
Answers in bold.
I feel like people defending it haven't actually played it against real decks/players/at all
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Legacy burn DOES use him. I use him as a 4x in my legacy burn. Some legacy burn players don't use him but thats for consistancy choices. he can be very powerful but he isnt' consistant.
In short, he's popular, but that doesn't make him good.
Loam Pox
Standard:
Boros Burn
#1 is obviously loltusk.