I posted this on general and posted the original survey there too a month ago.
However, I feel like this whole survey would be most appropriate in this board considering it is the standard players that are the most affected by the current new sets.
Definitely gave a piece of my mind. Respectful and polite, but also brutally honest. BFZ is an extremely weak set and is virtually unplayable in the current Standard outside of the rare lands and 1-3 other cards.
Just completed it, pretty much told them the set is uninteresting with boring mechanics and weak cards. They really are trying to push Ulamog as some awesome staple of the set with him in a number of quetions, but he is one of the few possibly playable cards so I am not surprised.
I answered honestly. I hugely enjoyed the prerelease and draft environment, but I felt the art design was often lacking. Favourite card is Painful Truths. However, I did remark that the set is cripplingly weak in Constructed. For reference, the only BFZ card that I run in my standard mainboard is 4 Painful Truths. I also have 1 Radiant Flames sideboard.
Definitely gave a piece of my mind. Respectful and polite, but also brutally honest. BFZ is an extremely weak set and is virtually unplayable in the current Standard outside of the rare lands and 1-3 other cards.
It's less that BFZ is weak than it is BFZ enabled the best mana base in the history of Standard following a set based on wedges. We've had back to back GPs won by four color decks. Personally, I still feel that Dark Jeskai is best in format (with a little tweaking) despite it's performance. Blue Abzan is great regardless. Neither one of those decks was remotely close to playable last rotation. Additionally, the three color decks have almost no problem not only hitting their colors but hitting their colors untapped. That was a huge problem with Abzan last rotation. It had a horrific mana base. It was not uncommon at all for the deck to just auto lose games due to colored mana problems. Now, it's smooth. Esper had problems with its mana base. Playing Esper Dragons, I felt that I probably lost 1 out of 10 games just due to my mana base. Now, it's smooth and one of the best mana bases in format.
BFZ looks weaker than it is because our current mana base lets us do all the things. When you can essentially play all the cards, wedge cards are going to over perform. They're supposed to be more powerful because they're harder to cast. When they're not harder to cast (like right now), they're just flat out more powerful. Take a look at Abzan right now. It's running ~20 cards that require multiple colors untapped turns 2-4. It's running four double color spells for turn 4 and two double colors for turn 5. It also wants to drop Warden of the First Tree turn 1. That's not something we'd normally consider workable. Dark Jeskai wants access to four colors untapped on turn 3. It hits it consistently.
TLDR version: BFZ cards haven't had the impact on standard outside of lands is because said lands unlocked tremendous power from prior sets.
Well that, and the individual card power in BFZ is strictly worse than that of Khans block cards. If the manabase allows you to play all the best cards and none of those cards are from BFZ, what does that say about the impact of the set?
Well that, and the individual card power in BFZ is strictly worse than that of Khans block cards. If the manabase allows you to play all the best cards and none of those cards are from BFZ, what does that say about the impact of the set?
It says BFZ is probably has had more impact because its lands enabled the mana base. Like I said, of course, the individual card power in BFZ is worse. It has to be worse than a wedge set. I already stated that.
What we're really seeing is simply a set that is, outside of lands, pushed out of sync with standard. BFZ simply made Khans better and more playable.
It's not just that the gold cards are pushing out reasonably powerful spells. It's that many of the typical basic effects in BFZ are far worse than the Theros version:
I put Bring to Light as my favourite card because it's a legitimately unique design. If you compare it to a similar effect, say, Dark Petition, which is just a nerfed demonic tutor, BTL is a much more interesting way to make a "fixed" version of the tutor effect.
It's not just that the gold cards are pushing out reasonably powerful spells. It's that many of the typical basic effects in BFZ are far worse than the Theros version:
If the Theros iteration of these cards were still in standard, they would be seeing plenty of play right now.
Ruinous path isn't that much worse than downfall, Touch of the Void is worse than Strike, but it is simply made to enable exile matters, and Scatter to the Winds is better than Dissolve.
It's not just that the gold cards are pushing out reasonably powerful spells. It's that many of the typical basic effects in BFZ are far worse than the Theros version:
If the Theros iteration of these cards were still in standard, they would be seeing plenty of play right now.
Ruinous path isn't that much worse than downfall, Touch of the Void is worse than Strike, but it is simply made to enable exile matters, and Scatter to the Winds is better than Dissolve.
Sorcery speed is unbelievably bad in a Mantis Rider format. Having to tap out (or nearly) on your own turn to deal with a haste creature just leaves you open to get hit by another haste creature. It can also make you lose tempo, time walk yourself, or make it so you are unable to leave up counter magic or other instant speed removal. Losing instant speed is really, really bad and there has to be MASSIVE upside to make it good (in this case, there's just no other unconditional black removal). It's why Terminate is everywhere in Modern and nobody plays Dreadbore.
Touch of the void exiles, yes, but it's also 3 mana and again sorcery speed. It's a downgrade on cost AND speed. Unplayable in red decks and lacks the versatility of Arc Lightning. I'd say it's strictly worse than Lightning Strike and conditionally better/worse than Arc Lightning.
Scatter is MEHHHH. Most of the time it's just a Cancel. The scry is much more useful, IMO. Late game you MAY be able to cast for Awaken, but having played Esper control for months and switching to Jeskai Black after 2 weeks of BFZ, the Awaken addition was mostly irrelevant. That, and the feel bads after getting your land killed by Crackling Doom sucks. I almost always wanted the scry instead. Dissolve is not strictly better than Scatter, but for most of the decks playing counterspells, the scry is just more important.
It's not just that the gold cards are pushing out reasonably powerful spells. It's that many of the typical basic effects in BFZ are far worse than the Theros version:
If the Theros iteration of these cards were still in standard, they would be seeing plenty of play right now.
Ruinous path isn't that much worse than downfall, Touch of the Void is worse than Strike, but it is simply made to enable exile matters, and Scatter to the Winds is better than Dissolve.
Scry is far more valuable than a late game awaken ability. Scatter is Cancel the vast majority of the time.
It's not just that the gold cards are pushing out reasonably powerful spells. It's that many of the typical basic effects in BFZ are far worse than the Theros version:
If the Theros iteration of these cards were still in standard, they would be seeing plenty of play right now.
If you are going to make comparisons between cards, you should at least have them make sense...
Touch of the Void is not a new "iteration" of Lightning Strike. It's draft oriented removal. If you want a card to compare it to, you should use Bolt of Keranos which is also a draft removal spell. It's harder to cast and has scry. Touch of the Void has exile to help make processor decks work in draft. Lightning Strike is designed for constructed play. There's no comparison to be made here.
The awaken cards you've mentioned are more specific. They are more niche but sometimes much more powerful. Atarka Red has been pushed around a lot, but they have a tremendous amount of problems with awaken lands particularly when you awaken Shambling Vents. They have no main deck answers to awaken 4. They have only Roast as an answer in the board. Atarka Red is also not boarding in removal against a deck that has awaken cards. When you need to get low to the ground, awaken is a powerful mechanic. It has the ability to double up as a win con as the game goes on. Awaken is much worse the first game one especially with meta considerations. The decks it's better against aren't as prevalent and removal isn't wholesale boarded out with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
If your argument is that no BFZ burn spell is made powerful enough for constructed play, you're not exacly disagreeing with the notion that BFZ's cards are powered down compared to Theros.
Atarka red's primary answer to Awaken 4 is just killng you before you get the mana to cast it - something that the Scatter and Ruinous Path are notably worse at defending against than their earlier iterations.
It's less that BFZ is weak than it is BFZ enabled the best mana base in the history of Standard following a set based on wedges. We've had back to back GPs won by four color decks. Personally, I still feel that Dark Jeskai is best in format (with a little tweaking) despite it's performance. Blue Abzan is great regardless. Neither one of those decks was remotely close to playable last rotation. Additionally, the three color decks have almost no problem not only hitting their colors but hitting their colors untapped. That was a huge problem with Abzan last rotation. It had a horrific mana base. It was not uncommon at all for the deck to just auto lose games due to colored mana problems. Now, it's smooth. Esper had problems with its mana base. Playing Esper Dragons, I felt that I probably lost 1 out of 10 games just due to my mana base. Now, it's smooth and one of the best mana bases in format.
While I agree with the sentiment that the issue is the Khans cards are being enabled by the BFZ mana making them much more powerful than they should be, I think it is debatable that this is the best mana we have ever had in standard.
While the Lorwyn/Shards mana was slower, it was also significantly stronger in terms of ability to cast spells. In BFZ standard you could never hope to put Cryptic Command, Wrath of God, Cloudthresher, and Cruel Ultimatum in the same deck.
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The devil's in the detail. BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
Even if the mana had just been good, instead of fantastic, we still probably would have just seen iterations of Khans wedges, since basically nothing in BFZ objectively as good. The draft fodder archetypes have no foothold in standard because all the cards individually cost too much mana or are significantly less impactful than stuff like Siege Rhino and Mantis Rider. Even the most robust "new" Aristocrats deck is completely shut down by Anafenza.
BFZ doesn't bring good new creatures, it doesn't bring good new spells, it doesn't bring good new synergies, it brings 1 great PW, a couple of downgraded reprints, a few actual reprints,and a bunch of cards that *might* be relevant when all the other good cards rotate out. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king... But only after you kick out all the two-eyes."
If your argument is that no BFZ burn spell is made powerful enough for constructed play, you're not exacly disagreeing with the notion that BFZ's cards are powered down compared to Theros.
Atarka red's primary answer to Awaken 4 is just killng you before you get the mana to cast it - something that the Scatter and Ruinous Path are notably worse at defending against than their earlier iterations.
There's no comparable burn card in the Khans block. The closest is Draconic Roar. Clearly, this means that Theros has higher power level and not that some sets and blocks do not support certain spell types... *eyeroll*
If we had both Hero's Downfall and Ruinous Path, Downfall is, without question, better in game one. Game two right now with the other cards, I don't think it's necessarily better. I don't think Dissolve is that much better (if at all) than Scatter to the Winds in game one. I don't think either would stay in after board.
While I agree with the sentiment that the issue is the Khans cards are being enabled by the BFZ mana making them much more powerful than they should be, I think it is debatable that this is the best mana we have ever had in standard.
While the Lorwyn/Shards mana was slower, it was also significantly stronger in terms of ability to cast spells. In BFZ standard you could never hope to put Cryptic Command, Wrath of God, Cloudthresher, and Cruel Ultimatum in the same deck.
I can go with that. There are more qualitative aspects to the mana base than I was allowing.
Even if the mana had just been good, instead of fantastic, we still probably would have just seen iterations of Khans wedges, since basically nothing in BFZ objectively as good. The draft fodder archetypes have no foothold in standard because all the cards individually cost too much mana or are significantly less impactful than stuff like Siege Rhino and Mantis Rider. Even the most robust "new" Aristocrats deck is completely shut down by Anafenza.
BFZ doesn't bring good new creatures, it doesn't bring good new spells, it doesn't bring good new synergies, it brings 1 great PW, a couple of downgraded reprints, a few actual reprints,and a bunch of cards that *might* be relevant when all the other good cards rotate out. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king... But only after you kick out all the two-eyes."
This mana base is literally squeezing all the value out of Khans and then some. This past GP top 8, not a single deck played fewer than 8 fetches. Two decks played more fetches than mana producing lands. Six of the decks played 12 fetches. You can pretend that this mana base is not having a massive impact on the format and that we'd end up with just iterations of Khans wedges, but that's a delusional fantasy. You'd probably end up with some much worse version of Abzan being carried on the back of Siege Rhino. You might see something in Jeskai, but that Jeskai mana base was just horrific. You don't see Esper. Mantis Rider? Who's that? He's a non-player in that format. I'm sure, the card is "objectively good," but it didn't see much play last go round. You don't even see Abzan running Sandsteppe Citadel anymore. This standard is radically different without the current mana base.
I don't even know why you even bring up cards being lower impact than Siege Rhino or Mantis Rider. That's the whole point. Siege Rhino is a 4/5 trample, drain 3 life for four mana. He's only got all that stuff because he takes three colors to cast. Mantis Rider is a 3/3 with three key words for three mana. You know what doesn't get you a 3/3 flier with three key words for three mana? Three mana cards that don't require three colors. You know how many wedge cards there are in BFZ? Zero. If you expect a non-wedge card to have the same power as a non-wedge card at the same CMC (draft cards aside obviously), you are living in a dream world. If you expect every set to be a wedge set, you shouldn't because that's never going to happen.
Bottom line, Khans cards are unbelievable right now because the difference between casting a wedge card and a single color card is insignificant and Khans had delve which is even better now with the number of fetches decks run.
That article is so-so at best. There's a few OK points and some real head scratchers.
First, despite that author's assertion, Planar Outburstis clearly better than End Hostilities. Destroying attached permanents hasn't been relevant since... a while. I guess maybe you could argue it was relevant in the very short time frame you occasionally had Stormbreath Dragon being ridden by Boon Satyr but the game was pretty much over at that point. Hitting creature lands is essentially worthless. You aren't going to hit a non-awakened land. We have all 9 planets of the solar system in perfect alignment more frequently than End Hostilities being better than Planar Outburst. That's just a total whiff in the article. Languish is much more conditional and not a great card in the format right now. This format is slow enough that the difference between a 4 CMC and 5 CMC sweeper is not that big. Languish is an imperfect sweeper, particularly in a world with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar emblems and Abzan Charms.
Second, you and the author continue to bring up the differences in power level between wedge cards and non-wedge cards. Yes, wedge cards have more power. They're wedge cards. They're supposed to be much harder to cast and supposed to be much harder on the mana base. You have both talked about Mantis Rider as a very powerful card. Sure, it's a great card! It is "objectively powerful." It saw limited play before BFZ. That article goes on to talk about how great Butcher of the Horde is also. If we're talking about powerful meaning playable in a format which both of you seem to be indicating, that's a straight up trash card. Otherwise, we can recognize it's a good card that's just out of sync or out of place in the format. Drana, Liberator of Malakir is a good example of this. She's powerful, possibly more powerful of a card than Mantis Rider. However, she's straight up countered by Mantis Rider. In a format with Mantis Rider present in numbers, she's never going to be viable.
Third, the author makes statements like this "In Standard, Kor Firewalker would make Touch of the Void playable." Ummm... no... no, it does not make Touch of the Void playable at all. If Kor Firewalker was in standard and someone played it, we'd all look at them like they were crazy which they would be because they played Kor Firewalker in this format.
Fourth, the author goes on with this nonsense:
First, the number of basics that are played can skew the numbers. Second, and most importantly, the Rare land cycle from the fall set always sees play no matter how good or bad it may be. The land cycle may not be the greatest of all time, but it will be the best (or second best) in Standard and the foundation for most tournament decks.
He also calls the BFZ lands "slowlands." BFZ lands are not slowlands. They are not even close to slowlands. They blow slowlands out of the water. It's clear he does not understand the impact of the BFZ lands.
Fifth, This is the best section of the entire article, but it completely misses the mark.
If you look at the mechanics from other large fall sets, it was their synergy with other sets in Standard that helped them see play. Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Master of Waves were immediately playable because they synergized well with Return to Ravinca block cards like Nightveil Specter and Underworld Connections. Or take for example Khans of Tarkir. Raid cares about attacking (happens every game), Delve cards about the graveyard (where cards go when they die), Prowess just cares about spells, Ferocious only cares about powerful creatures, and Outlast only cares about +1/+1 counters.
That's what the battle lands did. Did Crackling Doom see play? No. Did Mantis Rider see play? Not much. Did Kolaghan's Command see play? No. Did Become Immense see play? No. Did Temur Battlerage see play? No. Did Ojutai's Command see play? No. Did Butcher of the Horde see play (not that it really does anymore, but the author uses it as an example)? No. Did Tasigur, the Golden Fang see play? Not much and almost never in the main. Did Utter End see play? Not in six months prior to BFZ and before then only in a handful of Abzan decks and pretty much only as a 1-of or 1-1 split because the deck didn't really want it. All these cards that see significantly more play directly or indirectly due to the BFZ lands.
Hell, we can go even further! How good was Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy before BFZ? He saw some play sure. No one was talking about him being the best card in standard. Ban worth? Laughable. No, people argued he was the worst flip walker. Now, we can have legitimate discussions about whether he should or should not be banned. That's what BFZ did for Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy. It took a more or less fringe card and got people talking about banning him. The battle lands make him easier to cast as turn two untapped mana source and blue was no guarantee. The battle lands enable more fetches which makes him easier to flip. The battle lands enable better spells for his -3. Control decks? We had control decks? I don't mean Esper Dragon style control AKA "can I live to turn 5 and can you beat Dragonlord Ojutai." Now, we have a real control deck that is actually competitive. We have a three color, permission based control deck. If that doesn't make you say WTF is going on, I have no idea what will. Current control decks iterations are only possible due to battle lands. It's kind of amazing since we haven't had a real control deck that's actually been good since Sphinx's Revelation.deck. And no, the Dragonlord Ojutai.deck game plan of windmill slamming a 5 CMC creature and racing doesn't really count as a real control deck.
Further, can we go further? Could Abzan run four Wardens of the First Tree? No. Could Abzan consistently turn 4 Siege Rhino? Sort of, kind of if it time walked itself prior with tapped lands and even then misses weren't that uncommon. Could Abzan consistently play Wingmate Roc when it hit 5 mana? No.
The Khans block is a wedge set. You need to really sit there and ponder that until it sinks in. Khans has delve in it and fetches. Again, you need to fully understand the implications here. BFZ introduces fetchable, untapped (frequently) dual lands. While detail's point about filter lands is well taken (and he should have included Rhox War Monk in the cards he listed as I think it was also a 4-of), I think (and suspect most players would agree) this is the best mana base we've ever seen in a standard environment even if it doesn't support triple and quad color "off color" spells. It is fast and it is smooth. I'm not saying the full impact was something we should have all anticipated during spoiler season. However, it was obvious to anyone paying attention that BFZ was going to make Khans way better. It probably exceeded everyone's expectations in this regard. Go break down an older Abzan deck and compare it to a new one. The difference is night and day. Wedge cards inevitably have more power. They're supposed to be harder to cast. We had fetches which were so-so. Fetches, in a vacuum, aren't bad. They're good role fillers for getting untapped lands in early turns. It made casting the wedge cards easier on turn for sure. They fuel delve. You couldn't run too many of the fetches because fetch lands are not dual lands and there is tension between having to run enough basics for your fetches and dual lands to hit your colors. If you're in 3-colors, you aren't sitting there thinking "Whew, thank god I have these fetch lands to make this work." Unless, they fetch duals and frequently untapped duals. When your fetches fetch dual lands, that tension ceases to exist especially when the duals can enter untapped.
Hard to argue with someone who thinks Scatter the Winds and Ruinous Path are better than their alternatives from Theros. Go look at Reid Dukes article on his control deck. He prefers Clash of Wills over Scatter and calls it vastly inferior to dissolve and doesn't even play ruinous path, which is just a bad card now. You're not even right that the last GP was won by a four color deck. It wasn't it was won by good old three color Abzan, just like the Pro Tour. Boring set, awful sealed format and trash for standard isn't made up by it being a good draft set.
However, I feel like this whole survey would be most appropriate in this board considering it is the standard players that are the most affected by the current new sets.
http://surveys.marketpointsinc.com/surveys_0/wc1115gb8/Welcome.asp?pass=&src=2
Enjoy!
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Modern:
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RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
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What I think of MaRo
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
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Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
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Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
It's less that BFZ is weak than it is BFZ enabled the best mana base in the history of Standard following a set based on wedges. We've had back to back GPs won by four color decks. Personally, I still feel that Dark Jeskai is best in format (with a little tweaking) despite it's performance. Blue Abzan is great regardless. Neither one of those decks was remotely close to playable last rotation. Additionally, the three color decks have almost no problem not only hitting their colors but hitting their colors untapped. That was a huge problem with Abzan last rotation. It had a horrific mana base. It was not uncommon at all for the deck to just auto lose games due to colored mana problems. Now, it's smooth. Esper had problems with its mana base. Playing Esper Dragons, I felt that I probably lost 1 out of 10 games just due to my mana base. Now, it's smooth and one of the best mana bases in format.
BFZ looks weaker than it is because our current mana base lets us do all the things. When you can essentially play all the cards, wedge cards are going to over perform. They're supposed to be more powerful because they're harder to cast. When they're not harder to cast (like right now), they're just flat out more powerful. Take a look at Abzan right now. It's running ~20 cards that require multiple colors untapped turns 2-4. It's running four double color spells for turn 4 and two double colors for turn 5. It also wants to drop Warden of the First Tree turn 1. That's not something we'd normally consider workable. Dark Jeskai wants access to four colors untapped on turn 3. It hits it consistently.
TLDR version: BFZ cards haven't had the impact on standard outside of lands is because said lands unlocked tremendous power from prior sets.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This gives me the feeling that the opinion of the community on BFZ was so one-sided that they stopped the survey earlier than expected.
It says BFZ is probably has had more impact because its lands enabled the mana base. Like I said, of course, the individual card power in BFZ is worse. It has to be worse than a wedge set. I already stated that.
What we're really seeing is simply a set that is, outside of lands, pushed out of sync with standard. BFZ simply made Khans better and more playable.
Hero's Downfall turned into Ruinous Path
Lightning Strike into Touch of the Void
Dissolve into Scatter to the Winds
If the Theros iteration of these cards were still in standard, they would be seeing plenty of play right now.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Ruinous path isn't that much worse than downfall, Touch of the Void is worse than Strike, but it is simply made to enable exile matters, and Scatter to the Winds is better than Dissolve.
Sorcery speed is unbelievably bad in a Mantis Rider format. Having to tap out (or nearly) on your own turn to deal with a haste creature just leaves you open to get hit by another haste creature. It can also make you lose tempo, time walk yourself, or make it so you are unable to leave up counter magic or other instant speed removal. Losing instant speed is really, really bad and there has to be MASSIVE upside to make it good (in this case, there's just no other unconditional black removal). It's why Terminate is everywhere in Modern and nobody plays Dreadbore.
Touch of the void exiles, yes, but it's also 3 mana and again sorcery speed. It's a downgrade on cost AND speed. Unplayable in red decks and lacks the versatility of Arc Lightning. I'd say it's strictly worse than Lightning Strike and conditionally better/worse than Arc Lightning.
Scatter is MEHHHH. Most of the time it's just a Cancel. The scry is much more useful, IMO. Late game you MAY be able to cast for Awaken, but having played Esper control for months and switching to Jeskai Black after 2 weeks of BFZ, the Awaken addition was mostly irrelevant. That, and the feel bads after getting your land killed by Crackling Doom sucks. I almost always wanted the scry instead. Dissolve is not strictly better than Scatter, but for most of the decks playing counterspells, the scry is just more important.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Scry is far more valuable than a late game awaken ability. Scatter is Cancel the vast majority of the time.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
If you are going to make comparisons between cards, you should at least have them make sense...
Touch of the Void is not a new "iteration" of Lightning Strike. It's draft oriented removal. If you want a card to compare it to, you should use Bolt of Keranos which is also a draft removal spell. It's harder to cast and has scry. Touch of the Void has exile to help make processor decks work in draft. Lightning Strike is designed for constructed play. There's no comparison to be made here.
The awaken cards you've mentioned are more specific. They are more niche but sometimes much more powerful. Atarka Red has been pushed around a lot, but they have a tremendous amount of problems with awaken lands particularly when you awaken Shambling Vents. They have no main deck answers to awaken 4. They have only Roast as an answer in the board. Atarka Red is also not boarding in removal against a deck that has awaken cards. When you need to get low to the ground, awaken is a powerful mechanic. It has the ability to double up as a win con as the game goes on. Awaken is much worse the first game one especially with meta considerations. The decks it's better against aren't as prevalent and removal isn't wholesale boarded out with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
I'd take Hero's Downfall right now over Ruinous Path, but that'd be because removal is so weak. If I had them both in format, I'd might still play some number of Ruinous Path in the 75. I'd take Scatter to the Winds over Dissolve if both were in format.
Atarka red's primary answer to Awaken 4 is just killng you before you get the mana to cast it - something that the Scatter and Ruinous Path are notably worse at defending against than their earlier iterations.
While I agree with the sentiment that the issue is the Khans cards are being enabled by the BFZ mana making them much more powerful than they should be, I think it is debatable that this is the best mana we have ever had in standard.
While the Lorwyn/Shards mana was slower, it was also significantly stronger in terms of ability to cast spells. In BFZ standard you could never hope to put Cryptic Command, Wrath of God, Cloudthresher, and Cruel Ultimatum in the same deck.
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
BFZ doesn't bring good new creatures, it doesn't bring good new spells, it doesn't bring good new synergies, it brings 1 great PW, a couple of downgraded reprints, a few actual reprints,and a bunch of cards that *might* be relevant when all the other good cards rotate out. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king... But only after you kick out all the two-eyes."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
There's no comparable burn card in the Khans block. The closest is Draconic Roar. Clearly, this means that Theros has higher power level and not that some sets and blocks do not support certain spell types... *eyeroll*
If we had both Hero's Downfall and Ruinous Path, Downfall is, without question, better in game one. Game two right now with the other cards, I don't think it's necessarily better. I don't think Dissolve is that much better (if at all) than Scatter to the Winds in game one. I don't think either would stay in after board.
I can go with that. There are more qualitative aspects to the mana base than I was allowing.
The Esper control decks are playable pretty much exclusively due to the current mana base. Dark Jeskai doesn't exist. Blue Abzan doesn't exist. There's plenty of objectively good cards in BFZ.
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Drana, Liberator of Malakir
Undergrowth Champion
Dragonmaster Outcast
Oblivion Sower
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Planar Outburst
Radiant Flames
Bring to Light
Painful Truths
Quarantine Field
There's some others that are good.
This mana base is literally squeezing all the value out of Khans and then some. This past GP top 8, not a single deck played fewer than 8 fetches. Two decks played more fetches than mana producing lands. Six of the decks played 12 fetches. You can pretend that this mana base is not having a massive impact on the format and that we'd end up with just iterations of Khans wedges, but that's a delusional fantasy. You'd probably end up with some much worse version of Abzan being carried on the back of Siege Rhino. You might see something in Jeskai, but that Jeskai mana base was just horrific. You don't see Esper. Mantis Rider? Who's that? He's a non-player in that format. I'm sure, the card is "objectively good," but it didn't see much play last go round. You don't even see Abzan running Sandsteppe Citadel anymore. This standard is radically different without the current mana base.
I don't even know why you even bring up cards being lower impact than Siege Rhino or Mantis Rider. That's the whole point. Siege Rhino is a 4/5 trample, drain 3 life for four mana. He's only got all that stuff because he takes three colors to cast. Mantis Rider is a 3/3 with three key words for three mana. You know what doesn't get you a 3/3 flier with three key words for three mana? Three mana cards that don't require three colors. You know how many wedge cards there are in BFZ? Zero. If you expect a non-wedge card to have the same power as a non-wedge card at the same CMC (draft cards aside obviously), you are living in a dream world. If you expect every set to be a wedge set, you shouldn't because that's never going to happen.
Bottom line, Khans cards are unbelievable right now because the difference between casting a wedge card and a single color card is insignificant and Khans had delve which is even better now with the number of fetches decks run.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You continue to argue irrelevant nonsense.
That article is so-so at best. There's a few OK points and some real head scratchers.
First, despite that author's assertion, Planar Outburst is clearly better than End Hostilities. Destroying attached permanents hasn't been relevant since... a while. I guess maybe you could argue it was relevant in the very short time frame you occasionally had Stormbreath Dragon being ridden by Boon Satyr but the game was pretty much over at that point. Hitting creature lands is essentially worthless. You aren't going to hit a non-awakened land. We have all 9 planets of the solar system in perfect alignment more frequently than End Hostilities being better than Planar Outburst. That's just a total whiff in the article. Languish is much more conditional and not a great card in the format right now. This format is slow enough that the difference between a 4 CMC and 5 CMC sweeper is not that big. Languish is an imperfect sweeper, particularly in a world with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar emblems and Abzan Charms.
Second, you and the author continue to bring up the differences in power level between wedge cards and non-wedge cards. Yes, wedge cards have more power. They're wedge cards. They're supposed to be much harder to cast and supposed to be much harder on the mana base. You have both talked about Mantis Rider as a very powerful card. Sure, it's a great card! It is "objectively powerful." It saw limited play before BFZ. That article goes on to talk about how great Butcher of the Horde is also. If we're talking about powerful meaning playable in a format which both of you seem to be indicating, that's a straight up trash card. Otherwise, we can recognize it's a good card that's just out of sync or out of place in the format. Drana, Liberator of Malakir is a good example of this. She's powerful, possibly more powerful of a card than Mantis Rider. However, she's straight up countered by Mantis Rider. In a format with Mantis Rider present in numbers, she's never going to be viable.
Third, the author makes statements like this "In Standard, Kor Firewalker would make Touch of the Void playable." Ummm... no... no, it does not make Touch of the Void playable at all. If Kor Firewalker was in standard and someone played it, we'd all look at them like they were crazy which they would be because they played Kor Firewalker in this format.
Fourth, the author goes on with this nonsense:
He also calls the BFZ lands "slowlands." BFZ lands are not slowlands. They are not even close to slowlands. They blow slowlands out of the water. It's clear he does not understand the impact of the BFZ lands.
Fifth, This is the best section of the entire article, but it completely misses the mark.
That's what the battle lands did. Did Crackling Doom see play? No. Did Mantis Rider see play? Not much. Did Kolaghan's Command see play? No. Did Become Immense see play? No. Did Temur Battlerage see play? No. Did Ojutai's Command see play? No. Did Butcher of the Horde see play (not that it really does anymore, but the author uses it as an example)? No. Did Tasigur, the Golden Fang see play? Not much and almost never in the main. Did Utter End see play? Not in six months prior to BFZ and before then only in a handful of Abzan decks and pretty much only as a 1-of or 1-1 split because the deck didn't really want it. All these cards that see significantly more play directly or indirectly due to the BFZ lands.
Hell, we can go even further! How good was Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy before BFZ? He saw some play sure. No one was talking about him being the best card in standard. Ban worth? Laughable. No, people argued he was the worst flip walker. Now, we can have legitimate discussions about whether he should or should not be banned. That's what BFZ did for Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy. It took a more or less fringe card and got people talking about banning him. The battle lands make him easier to cast as turn two untapped mana source and blue was no guarantee. The battle lands enable more fetches which makes him easier to flip. The battle lands enable better spells for his -3. Control decks? We had control decks? I don't mean Esper Dragon style control AKA "can I live to turn 5 and can you beat Dragonlord Ojutai." Now, we have a real control deck that is actually competitive. We have a three color, permission based control deck. If that doesn't make you say WTF is going on, I have no idea what will. Current control decks iterations are only possible due to battle lands. It's kind of amazing since we haven't had a real control deck that's actually been good since Sphinx's Revelation.deck. And no, the Dragonlord Ojutai.deck game plan of windmill slamming a 5 CMC creature and racing doesn't really count as a real control deck.
Further, can we go further? Could Abzan run four Wardens of the First Tree? No. Could Abzan consistently turn 4 Siege Rhino? Sort of, kind of if it time walked itself prior with tapped lands and even then misses weren't that uncommon. Could Abzan consistently play Wingmate Roc when it hit 5 mana? No.
The Khans block is a wedge set. You need to really sit there and ponder that until it sinks in. Khans has delve in it and fetches. Again, you need to fully understand the implications here. BFZ introduces fetchable, untapped (frequently) dual lands. While detail's point about filter lands is well taken (and he should have included Rhox War Monk in the cards he listed as I think it was also a 4-of), I think (and suspect most players would agree) this is the best mana base we've ever seen in a standard environment even if it doesn't support triple and quad color "off color" spells. It is fast and it is smooth. I'm not saying the full impact was something we should have all anticipated during spoiler season. However, it was obvious to anyone paying attention that BFZ was going to make Khans way better. It probably exceeded everyone's expectations in this regard. Go break down an older Abzan deck and compare it to a new one. The difference is night and day. Wedge cards inevitably have more power. They're supposed to be harder to cast. We had fetches which were so-so. Fetches, in a vacuum, aren't bad. They're good role fillers for getting untapped lands in early turns. It made casting the wedge cards easier on turn for sure. They fuel delve. You couldn't run too many of the fetches because fetch lands are not dual lands and there is tension between having to run enough basics for your fetches and dual lands to hit your colors. If you're in 3-colors, you aren't sitting there thinking "Whew, thank god I have these fetch lands to make this work." Unless, they fetch duals and frequently untapped duals. When your fetches fetch dual lands, that tension ceases to exist especially when the duals can enter untapped.
Also Planar Outburst feels pretty bad in hand when looking at an opponent's Awakened creatures.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate