I really don't see the advantages of making a diificult manabase just to splash Abzan Charm that even Abzan play less and less because it's not so good than it was.
Against RB Dragon, you don't really want targeted removal since you basically bolt yourself everytime you do it. And all the other removal in the BW control shell does the same as Abzan Charm.
Against 4C Rally, the only possible target is a boosted nantuko and they will just sac it in response.
Against Jeskai Black Abzan Charm does the same thing as any another removal spell in the BW shell that you replaced.
As a draw spell it's less efficient than Read the bones since it's the same mana cost, same loss of life but at least read the bones can scry.
For the last part, it's not really relevant in the deck imo, since your gameplan of boosting Kalitas can easily be disrupted by every single removal played right now in standard's deck. (cut, grasp, crackling doom, roast, even opposing charm) And since it's the only creature that may stick the board in your build, chances are your opponent will have an answer for it.
I'm not seing the advantage of splashing a third color, involving fetches/dual and mana problems just for a card that does the same and even underperform compared to the cards you remove.
The whole benefit of the deck imo was that playing nearly 0 creature, the deck made a good chunk of the opponent's deck just blank cards while we were keeping the board clear. Dropping a Secure the Waste into some anthem effects to the win.
By playing as much creature as a midrange deck, you lose a lot of the deck's strenght imo and not adding a lot with the creature you added taht are not really threatening or playing in the gameplan BW Control want to be in.
I don't even understand Carrier Thrall or Liliana in the deck.
Carrier Thral is a weak T2 that is outclassed by all the turn 2 in the format, when on T2 this deck want and need to answer their early threat (Jace, Warden, Soulfire) before they degenerate
For Liliana, the +1 ability we don't want it since we want a full hand of answers and against aggro it's just bad.
The only creature you can flashback with her minus are fleshbag and carrier thrall. Not really valuable card, even worse in the rally matchup.
The only creature I would mainboard in this kind of deck is Kalitas, but since it'll be the only creature he will immediately eat the removal the opponent had in hand and couldn't cast the whole time.
But post your results when you play this list, I'm interested to see how it goes. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong in my comprehension of the deck.
I really don't see the advantages of making a diificult manabase just to splash Abzan Charm that even Abzan play less and less because it's not so good than it was.
Against RB Dragon, you don't really want targeted removal since you basically bolt yourself everytime you do it. And all the other removal in the BW control shell does the same as Abzan Charm.
Against 4C Rally, the only possible target is a boosted nantuko and they will just sac it in response.
Against Jeskai Black Abzan Charm does the same thing as any another removal spell in the BW shell that you replaced.
As a draw spell it's less efficient than Read the bones since it's the same mana cost, same loss of life but at least read the bones can scry.
For the last part, it's not really relevant in the deck imo, since your gameplan of boosting Kalitas can easily be disrupted by every single removal played right now in standard's deck. (cut, grasp, crackling doom, roast, even opposing charm) And since it's the only creature that may stick the board in your build, chances are your opponent will have an answer for it.
I'm not seing the advantage of splashing a third color, involving fetches/dual and mana problems just for a card that does the same and even underperform compared to the cards you remove.
The whole benefit of the deck imo was that playing nearly 0 creature, the deck made a good chunk of the opponent's deck just blank cards while we were keeping the board clear. Dropping a Secure the Waste into some anthem effects to the win.
By playing as much creature as a midrange deck, you lose a lot of the deck's strenght imo and not adding a lot with the creature you added taht are not really threatening or playing in the gameplan BW Control want to be in.
I don't even understand Carrier Thrall or Liliana in the deck.
Carrier Thral is a weak T2 that is outclassed by all the turn 2 in the format, when on T2 this deck want and need to answer their early threat (Jace, Warden, Soulfire) before they degenerate
For Liliana, the +1 ability we don't want it since we want a full hand of answers and against aggro it's just bad.
The only creature you can flashback with her minus are fleshbag and carrier thrall. Not really valuable card, even worse in the rally matchup.
The only creature I would mainboard in this kind of deck is Kalitas, but since it'll be the only creature he will immediately eat the removal the opponent had in hand and couldn't cast the whole time.
But post your results when you play this list, I'm interested to see how it goes. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong in my comprehension of the deck.
I tried making a three color version of the deck. I ended up giving up. Originally the idea was to create a deck to utilize both Nissa, Gideon, and Sorin.
I felt like it muddied the waters to much and made the deck worse vs decks like GR ramp (an already potentially shaky matchup).
First game I get off to a pretty aggressive start with Seeker, Grasp of Darkness, Gideon, Obnixilis. A few turns later after a couple of draws from Ob, I go wide with EOT Secure into Sorin next turn. He scoops.
Second game was much more competitive and his Wingmate Roc just crushed me.
Third game was similar to the first but with more removal on my part. t2 Silkwrap on his warden, read the bones, grasp on his Anafenza, valorous stance on his Rhino.....secure a few turns later. Shambling Vent also was a stud here.
Match 2 - G/W Tokens
First game he plays t1 Warden, t2 Hangarback, t3 Sylvan Advocate....and a buncha dromoka's command...or at least it seemed like it..
Second game he was stalled on 2 lands for at least two turns and I was able to resolve Gideon and Ob and have them in play for at least 2-3 turns. By the point he was able to get his mana right, I completely had control of the game.
Third game was pretty nuts....I played secure EOT and he negated it. That one caught me off guard and I wasnt paying attention to his lone Prairie Stream. He ended up winning the war of attrition with Hangarback Walker tokens and WIngmate Roc and Roc/tokens
Match 3 - Temur Black? (Savage Knuckleblade, Sylvan Advocate, Rattleclaw Mystic, Tasigur...)
First game was brutal. He played rattleclaw t2, knuckleblade t3, I grasp it. Knuckleblade t4, I grasp it. Tasigur t5, I valorous stanced it. When he was able to slip in a few minor guys (rattleclaw and sylvan advocate) I planar outburst'd. Wasn't long until I was able to control the board with an Ob.
Second game was super fast and he overwhelmed me with knuckleblades.
Third game went super long, but Reading the Bones three times is pretty good card advantage. The highlight play was a Ruinous Path with awaken targeting my shambling vent on back to back turns.
Overall, the deck is very solid and I really enjoy playing it. I probably made a buncha mistakes but still ended up with a decent record (and 8 Oath boosters)
I really don't see the advantages of making a diificult manabase just to splash Abzan Charm that even Abzan play less and less because it's not so good than it was.
Against RB Dragon, you don't really want targeted removal since you basically bolt yourself everytime you do it. And all the other removal in the BW control shell does the same as Abzan Charm.
Against 4C Rally, the only possible target is a boosted nantuko and they will just sac it in response.
Against Jeskai Black Abzan Charm does the same thing as any another removal spell in the BW shell that you replaced.
As a draw spell it's less efficient than Read the bones since it's the same mana cost, same loss of life but at least read the bones can scry.
For the last part, it's not really relevant in the deck imo, since your gameplan of boosting Kalitas can easily be disrupted by every single removal played right now in standard's deck. (cut, grasp, crackling doom, roast, even opposing charm) And since it's the only creature that may stick the board in your build, chances are your opponent will have an answer for it.
I'm not seing the advantage of splashing a third color, involving fetches/dual and mana problems just for a card that does the same and even underperform compared to the cards you remove.
The whole benefit of the deck imo was that playing nearly 0 creature, the deck made a good chunk of the opponent's deck just blank cards while we were keeping the board clear. Dropping a Secure the Waste into some anthem effects to the win.
By playing as much creature as a midrange deck, you lose a lot of the deck's strenght imo and not adding a lot with the creature you added taht are not really threatening or playing in the gameplan BW Control want to be in.
I don't even understand Carrier Thrall or Liliana in the deck.
Carrier Thral is a weak T2 that is outclassed by all the turn 2 in the format, when on T2 this deck want and need to answer their early threat (Jace, Warden, Soulfire) before they degenerate
For Liliana, the +1 ability we don't want it since we want a full hand of answers and against aggro it's just bad.
The only creature you can flashback with her minus are fleshbag and carrier thrall. Not really valuable card, even worse in the rally matchup.
The only creature I would mainboard in this kind of deck is Kalitas, but since it'll be the only creature he will immediately eat the removal the opponent had in hand and couldn't cast the whole time.
But post your results when you play this list, I'm interested to see how it goes. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong in my comprehension of the deck.
1) The mana base actually isn't all that difficult. In the past when I was running 4 Scoured Barrens and 4 Shambling Vents, I had eight lands guaranteed to enter the battlefield tapped. With my new mana base, that number theoretically decreases. On average, it's been between 6-8.
2) As far as RB Dragons is concerned, I was thinking exile more along the lines of Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. Thunderbreak Regent is difficult to get rid of no matter how you look at it, but I can see how Crackling Doom may be the better option.
3) In 4C Rally, it's good for extra card draw. I think this very important in the match up because of how the deck operates. I could be wrong.
4) Jeskai Black: I disagree with you on this assessment. Instant speed removal trumps sorcery speed removal damn near every single time. Ruinous Path was oftentimes too slow, and Drana, Liberator of Malakir didn't offer anything to the deck that it couldn't already do on it's own. She was too "win more." But again, I can see Doom as possibly being the better option here instead of Charm.
5) You're right, as a draw spell Bones is better than Charm. But this isn't a question of either or, and I never presented my deck us such. I think the deck needs both. Bones is my primary card draw spell, whereas Charm is the secondary. Again, my deck isn't pure BW Control, it's more BW Control/Midrange making every mode on Charm valid.
6) Yes, Kalitas dies to removal. But again, he isn't the only threat in the deck. I'll explain why in a second.
CARD CHOICES
Carrier Thrall
-He's an early blocker.
-He leaves behind a scion token when he dies.
-His scion can be sacrificed to allow me to play any of my spells with generic mana in them a turn sooner.
-He can be used to power Kalitas.
Fleshbag Marauder
-Acts as a removal spell.
-Synergies with Thrall (sac Thrall to Fleshbag, get a scion token and a bigger beat stick in Fleshbag over Thrall).
-Can be used to power Kalitas.
-Can activate Liliana, turning her into Liliana, Defiant Necromancer (this is important).
Liliana, Heretical Healer
-Acts as an early blocker Turns 2 and 3.
-Provides lifegain (important in a deck that uses A LOT of life points as a resource)
Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
-Can soft lock the game in conjunction with Fleshbag against all midrange/ramp strategies. Can't even tell you how many games I've won this way. The turn you flip her, you plus her making your opponent discard a card. Because the deck runs so much card draw, you're never really without cards or answers in your hand, so this don't effect your hand in any way. The turn after that, you minus her bringing back your Fleshbag and making them sack their (oftentimes) one big creature on the battlefield. Rinse and repeat as needed. As an added bonus, (typically 2-3 turns) your opponent is in top deck mode from all the discard.
-If Kalitas is already on the battlefield, you get a zombie each time Fleshbag makes your opponent sac a creature, which AGAIN, can be used to power Kalitas. I honestly feel like Wizard's designed Liliana, Defiant Necromancer, Fleshbag Marauder, and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet to be used hand in hand. The synergies are THAT strong.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
-Is great in the mirror match because she punishes your opponent for casting removal spells on your creatures. She's also good against Jeskai Black in this respect.
-Against most decks, she makes your opponent have to play around her. Unless your opponent's creatures have evasion, they are going to die to her deathtouch. I will say that I think she is more of a sideboard card now that I think about it.
TL;DR: The take away from my whole explanation is that I feel more card draw and instant removal are what the deck needs to win. I'll let you know how things go tonight after FNM.
So generally this is a token deck...we generate a large number of tokens, then power them with our planeswalkers, and swing lethal.
Deck looks pretty good! The only issues I can see:
1) Since your deck is based more on a token strategy, it might be better to run Gideon, Ally of Zendikar as a "4 of" instead of "2 of." Gideon hits harder than Siege Rhino and is invincible when he does, and also produces allies. As a matter of fact, I'd get rid of Rhino altogether and run more removal..
2) Using the suggestion above, your mana base will go a lot smoother. Right now you're playing nine lands that that potentially enter the battlefield tapped. I say potentially because you're already running six lands that must enter the battlefield tapped, and and three Battle Lands that may enter the battlefield tapped. The deck may run too slow because of this.
3) You Have a lot of spells that require double colored mana in their CMC. My question now becomes how often are you able to cast all of your spells on curve?
4) Consider going down -1 Silkwrap, -1 Stasis Snare, +2 Murderous Cut. Cut is quite arguably the best removal spell in the format, and it can be done at instant speed.
All in all, I like the deck. Have you had a chance to play it yet? I had made a deck similar to yours about a month ago, but I ran into some of the same issues with the suggestions I made above.
Looks good, my only concern in your manabase... 25 lands might be too little and also playing things like sea gate wreckage and mirror pool alongside blighted fen make casting cards like gideon and grasp of darkness difficult when you need them.
I managed a top 16 with this deck in a PPTQ of about 60 people. I beat 2 abzan aggro decks, an atarka red deck, 5C rally and a mirror match. I drew against an esper dragons list and lost to an eldrazi ramp deck. This deck is incredibly consistent in the meta, and my match against rally was almost a joke post board.
This is the deck I've been rocking on mtgo. I've won a few 8 man pods and it's a blast to play.
Feels so consistent.
The deck's worst match-up is Gx ramp. It's beatable, but doing so requires to go on the beat down path.
Rally is also a hit-or-miss result, depending on what they draw and what I draw. It feels about 50/50 thus far.
This is the deck I've been rocking on mtgo. I've won a few 8 man pods and it's a blast to play.
Feels so consistent.
The deck's worst match-up is Gx ramp. It's beatable, but doing so requires to go on the beat down path.
Rally is also a hit-or-miss result, depending on what they draw and what I draw. It feels about 50/50 thus far.
How useful and relevant has Ruinous Path been? How often are you siding it out if at all?
This is the deck I've been rocking on mtgo. I've won a few 8 man pods and it's a blast to play.
Feels so consistent.
The deck's worst match-up is Gx ramp. It's beatable, but doing so requires to go on the beat down path.
Rally is also a hit-or-miss result, depending on what they draw and what I draw. It feels about 50/50 thus far.
How useful and relevant has Ruinous Path been? How often are you siding it out if at all?
I love Ruinous Path. Typically I only side it out vs Ramp, Atarka Red, and occasionally Rally (depending on the build).
I also prefer not to use alot of creatures. My Seeker's come out in almost every single matchup. As a result Ruinous Path gives me an extra late game threat (which comes in handy alot).
This is the deck I've been rocking on mtgo. I've won a few 8 man pods and it's a blast to play.
Feels so consistent.
The deck's worst match-up is Gx ramp. It's beatable, but doing so requires to go on the beat down path.
Rally is also a hit-or-miss result, depending on what they draw and what I draw. It feels about 50/50 thus far.
How useful and relevant has Ruinous Path been? How often are you siding it out if at all?
I love Ruinous Path. Typically I only side it out vs Ramp, Atarka Red, and occasionally Rally (depending on the build).
I also prefer not to use alot of creatures. My Seeker's come out in almost every single matchup. As a result Ruinous Path gives me an extra late game threat (which comes in handy alot).
How is working for you 4th Gideon? For me I prefer 3rd Ob nixilis instead of 4th Gideon. Gideon is bad if you are behind.
This is the deck I've been rocking on mtgo. I've won a few 8 man pods and it's a blast to play.
Feels so consistent.
The deck's worst match-up is Gx ramp. It's beatable, but doing so requires to go on the beat down path.
Rally is also a hit-or-miss result, depending on what they draw and what I draw. It feels about 50/50 thus far.
How useful and relevant has Ruinous Path been? How often are you siding it out if at all?
I love Ruinous Path. Typically I only side it out vs Ramp, Atarka Red, and occasionally Rally (depending on the build).
I also prefer not to use alot of creatures. My Seeker's come out in almost every single matchup. As a result Ruinous Path gives me an extra late game threat (which comes in handy alot).
How is working for you 4th Gideon? For me I prefer 3rd Ob nixilis instead of 4th Gideon. Gideon is bad if you are behind.
It depends on far behind you are. I've won games from behind because I was able to EoT Secure The Wastes followed by Gideon Emblem (or two).
I've never been a fan of Ob Nixilis mostly because it can also be bad from behind. If you really need a removal spell... It's super expensive for the cost. And will almost always die immediately if you are that far behind.
That's one of the main reasons why I opt for 2 Planar Outburst in my deck. I more often take the control route when I'm playing BW.
I find Gideon to be me more useful vs Gx Ramp, Atarka Red, and in some cases Rally. Ob nixilis; however, is a powerhouse vs any other midrange deck (more so than gideon).
I did a MTGO daily tonight with the above deck list. Ended up going 2-2.
My won vs Rally, Abzan Blue. I lost vs UW Proweress and BR Dragons.
The BR Dragons was an unusual brew with thoptors. In game one he cast hangarback followed by three Thopter Engineer in a row. Never saw any dragons or dragon based removal. Unfortunately I never saw any of my mass removal spells.
Thinking he was on thoptors or some wierd aggro brew, I kept in my seekers and brought in flaying. That was a mistake. Ended up with 2 seekers the second game that did absolutely nothing.
Had he been on a traditional brew, I probably could have easily won it. But sbing wrong hurt.
That seems like a normal B/R Dragons build, Engineer into Pia into Kolaghan is the new tech I believe Tom Ross was playing.
Speaking of that deck, it seems very hard. Our removal is bad vs them as they create tokens, draconic roar punishes our planewalkers, and they have dash threats. How do you SB here?
Hoogland also is now running 4 Transgress the Mind in his SB, any idea what for? For ramp obviously, but what else are they good for?
That seems like a normal B/R Dragons build, Engineer into Pia into Kolaghan is the new tech I believe Tom Ross was playing.
Speaking of that deck, it seems very hard. Our removal is bad vs them as they create tokens, draconic roar punishes our planewalkers, and they have dash threats. How do you SB here?
Hoogland also is now running 4 Transgress the Mind in his SB, any idea what for? For ramp obviously, but what else are they good for?
Ah. That's my bad for not being up to date with the latest tech.
Honestly: it would have been a fine matchup had I sided out the seekers. Seekers turned on all of his removal which was really really bad for me.
Flaying Tendrils is mostly a dud VS RB Aggro. You want planar outburst VS them or perhaps Languish. Remember to adjust your sideboard for your local meta!
Ok, I´m not sure if the deck called esper tokens qualifies as BW control or not. But here is the thing.
I want to create a 60 card deck (i say that to not account for sideboard) that is the optimal vs Mardu or mardu green.
So lets imagine you have to play pro tour standard next week and you need to start your 60 card deck with this:
25 lands that supports 1BB 1WW and 1U, and has lots of fetchlands
4x Secure the wastes
4x Gideon/Sorin (you choose, you can add more if you want 8x if you want, but you need to at least contain 4 of any combination of those two)
That´s it, based on that add the 27 remaining cards you want to win that pro tour. You will only face all the varieties of mardu/mardu green. You have no sideboard, they do.
You are free to add extremly situation cards that only work vs mardu green.
You are free to go wild, if you want make a Permission deck with 4x ojutai command and 4x disdainfull stroke or go full aggro with 27 wennie creatures.
If its really worthwhile the mana base can support 3R or 3G
Ok, I´m not sure if the deck called esper tokens qualifies as BW control or not. But here is the thing.
I want to create a 60 card deck (i say that to not account for sideboard) that is the optimal vs Mardu or mardu green.
So lets imagine you have to play pro tour standard next week and you need to start your 60 card deck with this:
25 lands that supports 1BB 1WW and 1U, and has lots of fetchlands
4x Secure the wastes
4x Gideon/Sorin (you choose, you can add more if you want 8x if you want, but you need to at least contain 4 of any combination of those two)
That´s it, based on that add the 27 remaining cards you want to win that pro tour. You will only face all the varieties of mardu/mardu green. You have no sideboard, they do.
You are free to add extremly situation cards that only work vs mardu green.
You are free to go wild, if you want make a Permission deck with 4x ojutai command and 4x disdainfull stroke or go full aggro with 27 wennie creatures.
If its really worthwhile the mana base can support 3R or 3G
Help?
I'd imagine the following cards would be good against Mardu variants:
Transgress the Mind - Not only does it discard, but it also exiles important cards like Kolaghan's Command and Crackling Doom so they cant target them with Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Monastery Mentor - They usually have one for one removal and this guy can generate alot of tokens and problems
Valorous Stance - Hits most of their creatures like Rhino, Goblins, Thought-Knots, etc...
I have been running 4 but thinking about dropping one and adding 1 Dark Petition into the main so i can search for specific cards i need in the mid to late game. Thoughts?
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Against RB Dragon, you don't really want targeted removal since you basically bolt yourself everytime you do it. And all the other removal in the BW control shell does the same as Abzan Charm.
Against 4C Rally, the only possible target is a boosted nantuko and they will just sac it in response.
Against Jeskai Black Abzan Charm does the same thing as any another removal spell in the BW shell that you replaced.
As a draw spell it's less efficient than Read the bones since it's the same mana cost, same loss of life but at least read the bones can scry.
For the last part, it's not really relevant in the deck imo, since your gameplan of boosting Kalitas can easily be disrupted by every single removal played right now in standard's deck. (cut, grasp, crackling doom, roast, even opposing charm) And since it's the only creature that may stick the board in your build, chances are your opponent will have an answer for it.
I'm not seing the advantage of splashing a third color, involving fetches/dual and mana problems just for a card that does the same and even underperform compared to the cards you remove.
The whole benefit of the deck imo was that playing nearly 0 creature, the deck made a good chunk of the opponent's deck just blank cards while we were keeping the board clear. Dropping a Secure the Waste into some anthem effects to the win.
By playing as much creature as a midrange deck, you lose a lot of the deck's strenght imo and not adding a lot with the creature you added taht are not really threatening or playing in the gameplan BW Control want to be in.
I don't even understand Carrier Thrall or Liliana in the deck.
Carrier Thral is a weak T2 that is outclassed by all the turn 2 in the format, when on T2 this deck want and need to answer their early threat (Jace, Warden, Soulfire) before they degenerate
For Liliana, the +1 ability we don't want it since we want a full hand of answers and against aggro it's just bad.
The only creature you can flashback with her minus are fleshbag and carrier thrall. Not really valuable card, even worse in the rally matchup.
The only creature I would mainboard in this kind of deck is Kalitas, but since it'll be the only creature he will immediately eat the removal the opponent had in hand and couldn't cast the whole time.
But post your results when you play this list, I'm interested to see how it goes. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong in my comprehension of the deck.
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Shambling Vent
2 hissing quagmire
2 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Windswept Heath
2 Canopy Vista
1 cinder glade
2 swamp
2 forest
2 plains
CREATURES (4)
4 siege rhino
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Gideon, ally of zendikar
2 nissa, voice of zendikar
INSTANTS AND SORCERIES (11)
3 Abzan Charm
3 grasp of darkness
2 Ruinous Path
3 secure the wastes
ENCHANTMENTS (12)
3 Oath of Nissa
3 oath of gideon
3 stasis snare
3 silkwrap
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 flaying tendrils
3 transgress the mind
2 seeker of the way
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Can't remember this spot!
So generally this is a token deck...we generate a large number of tokens, then power them with our planeswalkers, and swing lethal.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
I tried making a three color version of the deck. I ended up giving up. Originally the idea was to create a deck to utilize both Nissa, Gideon, and Sorin.
I felt like it muddied the waters to much and made the deck worse vs decks like GR ramp (an already potentially shaky matchup).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4 Seeker of the Way
Instants
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Murderous Cut
3 Secure the Wastes
1 Ultimate Price
2 Utter End
1 Valorous Stance
1 Silkwrap
Planeswalkers
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Planar Outburst
4 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
Basic Lands
4 Plains
8 Swamp
Lands
2 Blighted Fen
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Shambling Vent
4 Duress
3 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Planar Outburst
Match 1 - Abzan Aggro
First game I get off to a pretty aggressive start with Seeker, Grasp of Darkness, Gideon, Obnixilis. A few turns later after a couple of draws from Ob, I go wide with EOT Secure into Sorin next turn. He scoops.
Second game was much more competitive and his Wingmate Roc just crushed me.
Third game was similar to the first but with more removal on my part. t2 Silkwrap on his warden, read the bones, grasp on his Anafenza, valorous stance on his Rhino.....secure a few turns later. Shambling Vent also was a stud here.
Match 2 - G/W Tokens
First game he plays t1 Warden, t2 Hangarback, t3 Sylvan Advocate....and a buncha dromoka's command...or at least it seemed like it..
Second game he was stalled on 2 lands for at least two turns and I was able to resolve Gideon and Ob and have them in play for at least 2-3 turns. By the point he was able to get his mana right, I completely had control of the game.
Third game was pretty nuts....I played secure EOT and he negated it. That one caught me off guard and I wasnt paying attention to his lone Prairie Stream. He ended up winning the war of attrition with Hangarback Walker tokens and WIngmate Roc and Roc/tokens
Match 3 - Temur Black? (Savage Knuckleblade, Sylvan Advocate, Rattleclaw Mystic, Tasigur...)
First game was brutal. He played rattleclaw t2, knuckleblade t3, I grasp it. Knuckleblade t4, I grasp it. Tasigur t5, I valorous stanced it. When he was able to slip in a few minor guys (rattleclaw and sylvan advocate) I planar outburst'd. Wasn't long until I was able to control the board with an Ob.
Second game was super fast and he overwhelmed me with knuckleblades.
Third game went super long, but Reading the Bones three times is pretty good card advantage. The highlight play was a Ruinous Path with awaken targeting my shambling vent on back to back turns.
Overall, the deck is very solid and I really enjoy playing it. I probably made a buncha mistakes but still ended up with a decent record (and 8 Oath boosters)
Can't wait to try again next week!
1) The mana base actually isn't all that difficult. In the past when I was running 4 Scoured Barrens and 4 Shambling Vents, I had eight lands guaranteed to enter the battlefield tapped. With my new mana base, that number theoretically decreases. On average, it's been between 6-8.
2) As far as RB Dragons is concerned, I was thinking exile more along the lines of Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. Thunderbreak Regent is difficult to get rid of no matter how you look at it, but I can see how Crackling Doom may be the better option.
3) In 4C Rally, it's good for extra card draw. I think this very important in the match up because of how the deck operates. I could be wrong.
4) Jeskai Black: I disagree with you on this assessment. Instant speed removal trumps sorcery speed removal damn near every single time. Ruinous Path was oftentimes too slow, and Drana, Liberator of Malakir didn't offer anything to the deck that it couldn't already do on it's own. She was too "win more." But again, I can see Doom as possibly being the better option here instead of Charm.
5) You're right, as a draw spell Bones is better than Charm. But this isn't a question of either or, and I never presented my deck us such. I think the deck needs both. Bones is my primary card draw spell, whereas Charm is the secondary. Again, my deck isn't pure BW Control, it's more BW Control/Midrange making every mode on Charm valid.
6) Yes, Kalitas dies to removal. But again, he isn't the only threat in the deck. I'll explain why in a second.
CARD CHOICES
Carrier Thrall
-He's an early blocker.
-He leaves behind a scion token when he dies.
-His scion can be sacrificed to allow me to play any of my spells with generic mana in them a turn sooner.
-He can be used to power Kalitas.
Fleshbag Marauder
-Acts as a removal spell.
-Synergies with Thrall (sac Thrall to Fleshbag, get a scion token and a bigger beat stick in Fleshbag over Thrall).
-Can be used to power Kalitas.
-Can activate Liliana, turning her into Liliana, Defiant Necromancer (this is important).
Liliana, Heretical Healer
-Acts as an early blocker Turns 2 and 3.
-Provides lifegain (important in a deck that uses A LOT of life points as a resource)
Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
-Can soft lock the game in conjunction with Fleshbag against all midrange/ramp strategies. Can't even tell you how many games I've won this way. The turn you flip her, you plus her making your opponent discard a card. Because the deck runs so much card draw, you're never really without cards or answers in your hand, so this don't effect your hand in any way. The turn after that, you minus her bringing back your Fleshbag and making them sack their (oftentimes) one big creature on the battlefield. Rinse and repeat as needed. As an added bonus, (typically 2-3 turns) your opponent is in top deck mode from all the discard.
-If Kalitas is already on the battlefield, you get a zombie each time Fleshbag makes your opponent sac a creature, which AGAIN, can be used to power Kalitas. I honestly feel like Wizard's designed Liliana, Defiant Necromancer, Fleshbag Marauder, and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet to be used hand in hand. The synergies are THAT strong.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
-Is great in the mirror match because she punishes your opponent for casting removal spells on your creatures. She's also good against Jeskai Black in this respect.
-Against most decks, she makes your opponent have to play around her. Unless your opponent's creatures have evasion, they are going to die to her deathtouch. I will say that I think she is more of a sideboard card now that I think about it.
TL;DR: The take away from my whole explanation is that I feel more card draw and instant removal are what the deck needs to win. I'll let you know how things go tonight after FNM.
Deck looks pretty good! The only issues I can see:
1) Since your deck is based more on a token strategy, it might be better to run Gideon, Ally of Zendikar as a "4 of" instead of "2 of." Gideon hits harder than Siege Rhino and is invincible when he does, and also produces allies. As a matter of fact, I'd get rid of Rhino altogether and run more removal..
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Utter End, +1 Grasp of Darkness, -4 Siege Rhino
2) Using the suggestion above, your mana base will go a lot smoother. Right now you're playing nine lands that that potentially enter the battlefield tapped. I say potentially because you're already running six lands that must enter the battlefield tapped, and and three Battle Lands that may enter the battlefield tapped. The deck may run too slow because of this.
3) You Have a lot of spells that require double colored mana in their CMC. My question now becomes how often are you able to cast all of your spells on curve?
4) Consider going down -1 Silkwrap, -1 Stasis Snare, +2 Murderous Cut. Cut is quite arguably the best removal spell in the format, and it can be done at instant speed.
All in all, I like the deck. Have you had a chance to play it yet? I had made a deck similar to yours about a month ago, but I ran into some of the same issues with the suggestions I made above.
8 Swamps
4 Plains
4 Shambling vent
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
2 Blighted Fen
Creatures (4)
4 Seeker of the way
Other spells (30)
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Utter End
2 Planar Outburst
1 Ultimate Price
2 Murderous Cut
3 Ruinous Path
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Read the Bones
4 Secure the Wastes
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Duress
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Flaying Tendrils
4 Hollowed Moonlight
2 Monastery Mentor
This is the deck I've been rocking on mtgo. I've won a few 8 man pods and it's a blast to play.
Feels so consistent.
The deck's worst match-up is Gx ramp. It's beatable, but doing so requires to go on the beat down path.
Rally is also a hit-or-miss result, depending on what they draw and what I draw. It feels about 50/50 thus far.
How useful and relevant has Ruinous Path been? How often are you siding it out if at all?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I love Ruinous Path. Typically I only side it out vs Ramp, Atarka Red, and occasionally Rally (depending on the build).
I also prefer not to use alot of creatures. My Seeker's come out in almost every single matchup. As a result Ruinous Path gives me an extra late game threat (which comes in handy alot).
How is working for you 4th Gideon? For me I prefer 3rd Ob nixilis instead of 4th Gideon. Gideon is bad if you are behind.
It depends on far behind you are. I've won games from behind because I was able to EoT Secure The Wastes followed by Gideon Emblem (or two).
I've never been a fan of Ob Nixilis mostly because it can also be bad from behind. If you really need a removal spell... It's super expensive for the cost. And will almost always die immediately if you are that far behind.
That's one of the main reasons why I opt for 2 Planar Outburst in my deck. I more often take the control route when I'm playing BW.
I find Gideon to be me more useful vs Gx Ramp, Atarka Red, and in some cases Rally. Ob nixilis; however, is a powerhouse vs any other midrange deck (more so than gideon).
My won vs Rally, Abzan Blue. I lost vs UW Proweress and BR Dragons.
The BR Dragons was an unusual brew with thoptors. In game one he cast hangarback followed by three Thopter Engineer in a row. Never saw any dragons or dragon based removal. Unfortunately I never saw any of my mass removal spells.
Thinking he was on thoptors or some wierd aggro brew, I kept in my seekers and brought in flaying. That was a mistake. Ended up with 2 seekers the second game that did absolutely nothing.
Had he been on a traditional brew, I probably could have easily won it. But sbing wrong hurt.
Speaking of that deck, it seems very hard. Our removal is bad vs them as they create tokens, draconic roar punishes our planewalkers, and they have dash threats. How do you SB here?
Hoogland also is now running 4 Transgress the Mind in his SB, any idea what for? For ramp obviously, but what else are they good for?
Here's my Updated list.
4 Seeker of the Way
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Instants
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Murderous Cut
4 Secure the Wastes
1 Ultimate Price
2 Utter End
1 Valorous Stance
Planeswalkers
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Planar Outburst
4 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
Basic Lands
4 Plains
8 Swamp
Lands
2 Blighted Fen
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Shambling Vent
2 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Duress
4 Flaying Tendrils
1 Planar Outburst
4 Transgress the Mind
Ah. That's my bad for not being up to date with the latest tech.
Honestly: it would have been a fine matchup had I sided out the seekers. Seekers turned on all of his removal which was really really bad for me.
tendrils seems terribe, it's only good vs Atarka Red or maybe Esper Tokens.
When do you bring in Transgress?
Transgress is great against many decks like Ramp, Esper Dragons, Rally, the mirror, etc..
I want to create a 60 card deck (i say that to not account for sideboard) that is the optimal vs Mardu or mardu green.
So lets imagine you have to play pro tour standard next week and you need to start your 60 card deck with this:
25 lands that supports 1BB 1WW and 1U, and has lots of fetchlands
4x Secure the wastes
4x Gideon/Sorin (you choose, you can add more if you want 8x if you want, but you need to at least contain 4 of any combination of those two)
That´s it, based on that add the 27 remaining cards you want to win that pro tour. You will only face all the varieties of mardu/mardu green. You have no sideboard, they do.
You are free to add extremly situation cards that only work vs mardu green.
You are free to go wild, if you want make a Permission deck with 4x ojutai command and 4x disdainfull stroke or go full aggro with 27 wennie creatures.
If its really worthwhile the mana base can support 3R or 3G
Help?
I'd imagine the following cards would be good against Mardu variants:
Transgress the Mind - Not only does it discard, but it also exiles important cards like Kolaghan's Command and Crackling Doom so they cant target them with Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Monastery Mentor - They usually have one for one removal and this guy can generate alot of tokens and problems
Valorous Stance - Hits most of their creatures like Rhino, Goblins, Thought-Knots, etc...
I have been running 4 but thinking about dropping one and adding 1 Dark Petition into the main so i can search for specific cards i need in the mid to late game. Thoughts?