How do you do against people that bring virulent plague after sideboard ?
Would it be corrct to bring some enchantment hate like Erase or Felidar Cub ?
I feel like a deck like this shouldn't be playing felidar cub since we're not creature oriented. Most decks run a few utter ends which do the trick. If Virulent plague hits the board it's not entirely GG for us since we can still beat down with seeker, Gideon, shambling vents and awoken lands. Just sideboard to adjust if they bring it in G2.
This. Chris Anderson brought it in against me and I just controlled the board, firing Ob Nixilis to draw cards until I found an Utter End, which you have two or three of in the main. Often you draw so many cards and have so much removal that even if you don't find the Utter End you can just beat their nose in with a single beater over the course of several turns. If you're worried about it in certain matchups you can always bring in the Dark Petition from the board to have access to an additional Utter End.
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Agree @ ramp being the hardest matchup. It was easier when their threats were just Ugin and Ulamog, but now ramp decks are playing up to 5 different finishers which makes Infinite obliteration pretty bad against them. We don't really have any silver bullets aside from transgress the mind and even that wont prevent them from ripping something off the top.
I wonder if Thought-Knot Seer would help this match. I think discard is the best strategy but there's nothing we can do about timely top decks.
I do like seer a ton, even in a deck like this, but the colorless mana can be tricky considering we are typically only running 6-7 colorless generators and can't really afford to play more alongside things like Stasis Snare, Grasp of Darkness and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
I played the deck this weekend locally (only major difference is I run 3 Oath of Gideon instead of a few removal cards) and went 2-2, beating RG Eldrazi Ramp and a mirror match, and losing to 4c Rally and Abzan Tokens (they spit out tokens a lot faster than we do because of Nissa).
To those of you who feel good about Rally -- what makes you feel that way? I got clobbered both games, and they weren't even close. Reflector Mage completely negated Kalitas, and they were able to just beat me down without even having to worry about Rally the Ancestors. Coco was throwing out more creatures than I could deal with, and a lot faster than us. It felt like a 10/90 matchup even post board. They have easy answers to Kalitas and we have 3 Moonlights vs their 8 coco / rally.
I will happily say that Oath of Gideon T3 into T4 Sorin won every game that it occurred on. T5 Sorin Emblem is virtually unbeatable.
I played the deck this weekend locally (only major difference is I run 3 Oath of Gideon instead of a few removal cards) and went 2-2, beating RG Eldrazi Ramp and a mirror match, and losing to 4c Rally and Abzan Tokens (they spit out tokens a lot faster than we do because of Nissa).
To those of you who feel good about Rally -- what makes you feel that way? I got clobbered both games, and they weren't even close. Reflector Mage completely negated Kalitas, and they were able to just beat me down without even having to worry about Rally the Ancestors. Coco was throwing out more creatures than I could deal with, and a lot faster than us. It felt like a 10/90 matchup even post board. They have easy answers to Kalitas and we have 3 Moonlights vs their 8 coco / rally.
I will happily say that Oath of Gideon T3 into T4 Sorin won every game that it occurred on. T5 Sorin Emblem is virtually unbeatable.
It can be a difficult matchup even post board but i think the amount of removal we have coupled with our trump cards like outburst, hallowed moonlight, flaying tendrils and Kalitas make it certainly winnable.
Here's a replay of Jeff Hoogland playing against rally, and you can see that the hallowed moonlight in his hand in both g2 and g3 kept robert in check. This game was a draw but Jeff made a misplay in turns with his Kalitas that could've won him the match.
Disagree that the Rally match up is that difficult. Not counting the match linked above where I missed lethal in 3 different ways the last two turns of the match I am 3-0 against it with BW control between Columbus and Atlanta.
Even counting the match where I was a stone cold idiot I'd be 3-1 against it in sanctioned matches with a good record against it in testing as well.
Don't board in Flaying Tendrils if you have it against Rally. That card is laughable at best against their sea of x/3 creatures.
Disagree that the Rally match up is that difficult. Not counting the match linked above where I missed lethal in 3 different ways the last two turns of the match I am 3-0 against it with BW control between Columbus and Atlanta.
Even counting the match where I was a stone cold idiot I'd be 3-1 against it in sanctioned matches with a good record against it in testing as well.
Don't board in Flaying Tendrils if you have it against Rally. That card is laughable at best against their sea of x/3 creatures.
Jeff thanks for the post, What is the hardest match up for BW control in your opinion and is it worth splashing blue in this deck?
Here's my updated list, minus SB. One card I'm testing at the moment is Captain's Claws it seems like a good fit to me. We Have tokens , Shambling Vent and Gideon to equip it to, it turns any creature into Brimaz, King of Oreskos.
Infinite obliteration and hallowed moonlight keep them in check. Without a infinite sac outlet like nantuko it becomes a weenie deck with mild synergy. Keep them down with your vents and slowly pick away at them for game. If you have Kalitas he can also hose them as long as you focus on husk. Ayli is no replacement because they have to pay for her ability so their rally is relegated to a couple sacs and they exile their creatures for you. But I also prefer Silkwrap to grasp of darkness because the mana is easier and it handles a lot of creatures in standard.
I've been pretty unimpressed with Obliteration - I cut it from my 75 in Columbus and didn't miss it. Now that rally as 2 sac outlets it really doesn't do enough. Same thing with ramp having a variety of threats.
Hardest match up is probably RB dragons. They have a lot of "go wide" cards on top of things like flamewake to generate card advantage. Would likely need 2-3 more sweepers to make it a decent matchup, but not sure that is popular enough to be relevant.
Ramp can also be close, but boarding in 4x Transgress makes it pretty reasonable post board.
Any thoughts on possibly playing a 1x empty the pits as an additional finisher. With only Cut as the the current delve card it could be a surprise to many opponents(also the card has seen zero play).
Here is a list I took to SCGCOL with a blue splash that felt great. I wasn't able to make day 2 with it but I think that was because I didn't perform well enough. Moving forward I want to cut infintie obliteration and Narset. I want to try Tainted Remedy and Stratus Dancer to help with the rally match up. Thoughts?
I went 3-1 and came in second place. I lost to an Abzan Midrange deck running nothing but quality creatures like Den Protector, Warden of the First Tree, Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc, and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. The biggest problem I had was reaching a Ruinous Path in time to kill Gideon, or having enough removal to get rid of his Rocs once he emblemed Gideon. I'm considering adding Crux of Fate or Planar Outburst into the mix. Probably Outburst. There are to LGS's that run Standard tournaments tonight. I may go to one of them. If I do, I think I'm gonna go with:
What I like the most about this newest build is that Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim puts in work! She punishes opponents for casting their own removal spells and acts as a wall against all ground creatures that don't have invincibility. I'm not quite sure how relevant her third ability is, but it's nice IF you can get it off. I also took out Infinite Obliteration. I just find the card to be lackluster, and decks like RG Eldrazi Ramp, Abzan Midrange, and RB Dragons play so many threats in becomes irrelevant. I also took out Dark Petition and replaced it with Remorseless Punishment. I honestly think Punishment is very good against midrange/ramp decks and can keep you opponent from stabilizing the board.
EDIT: Also took out Aligned Hedron Network for another Secure the Wastes. Network hasn't done anything for me at all, and I can only think of one instance where my opponent landed a Desolation Twin or had more than one giant eldrazi on the battlefield. Plus I need those eldrazi to re-animate once I get Liliana, Defiant Necromancer's ult off (which happens way often than you think in this particular build).
Out of curiosity - is there a reason why none of these lists I've seen run Quarantine Field or Linvala, the Preserver? Both seem like the kind of thing this kind of deck wants?
Linvala, I think, is too costly for what she does. The deck already has built in lifegain with Liliana, Kalitas, Sorin, and Vent, so Linvala's first ability is redundant. And the deck already has the means to put out numerous creatures via Kalitas, Sorin, Carrier Thrall, and Secure the wastes. Which again, makes her redundant.
Quarantine Field, I'm unsure of. It's dangerous IMO to play because it allows MULTIPLE threats to re-enter the battlefield should it be destroyed. In theory, I think its very powerful, but my decks success hinges on me killing creatures, not exiling them.
I messed around with Quarantine in the sideboard as a card to bring in against control and abzan but the presence of Dromoka's command and utter end made it risky to play. It's certainly a good card and I bet it'll see plenty of play in the next standard rotation.
While she does only add redundancy on those fronts, the majority of the lifegain is attached to haste-less creatures - and perhaps more relevant: The majority of the creatures the deck uses to go wide are a) relatively small and b) non-evasive. Linvala brings two fairly big fliers, which I feel is pretty relevant, with several token and rally variants in the meta, that can bog the ground down pretty easily.
(As for quarantine field, I personally view it as sorcery speed Utter End, with the occasional potential for a big blowout to clear a path for a lethal attack. I do agree that casting it for x=2+ is too risky, if it doesn't enable lethal)
Just want to point out that VERY few creatures have both haste AND lifelink. And none do it in standard (at least, not any I can think of off the top of my head). So that point is moot. But I understand the point you're making because were talking about instantaneous life gain once Linvala resolves. Its a question of if we're behind in life in a big way and we need to stabilize. But I can honestly say, there's not a single game I've played since creating my deck that I haven't been able to hit with at least a few of my life-linking creatures. If I were running more of a pure BW Control deck, I could see running her as a stabilizer, possibly a finisher. And most creatures that do go wide go wide because they are small. BUT, each creature in the deck serves a particular purpose, but the deck's success isn't predicated on any one particular creature surviving, so evasion, while nice, isn't necessary. Secure the Wastes is a much better card to bog down the ground, IMO, and it can be cast on your opponent's turn, which is huge. Many people FEAR Wastes. If I were to go the Livala route, I'd be something like:
See the difference? This build is running far fewer creatures, and hella more removal. Honestly, I think I may create the above deck if I can manage to acquire the missing deck pieces I currently don't have.
I messed around with Quarantine in the sideboard as a card to bring in against control and abzan but the presence of Dromoka's command and utter end made it risky to play. It's certainly a good card and I bet it'll see plenty of play in the next standard rotation.
Agreed. To this day, Dromoka's Command has been a thorn in my side. And Abzan Midrange the bane of my existence.
You find Abzan Midrange a difficult matchup ?
I think it's the most easy matchup since they tapout for one threat per turn that we can easily kill during their turn with all our removal spell.
And they don't have any sweepers/counterspell to prevent being overwhelmed by secure the waste.
Even postboard they don't have that much answers to our threats (maybe one or two Utter End if they're really that midrange) and if they play blue, they can bring like 4 counterspell. Not enough to keep up with all we have going on
But yeah if you play things like silkwrap/stasis snare/quarantine field without processor, you can get blown out by dromoka's command. That's why i think it's not a good idea to play enchantment in this deck.
I've been thinking of running a possible abzan superfriends list, which is basically much like the bw build, but with nissa, voice of zendikar, oath of nissa and abzan charm, which I think is a bit superior to read the bones...I can post a deck list if anyone is interested.
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You find Abzan Midrange a difficult matchup ?
I think it's the most easy matchup since they tapout for one threat per turn that we can easily kill during their turn with all our removal spell.
And they don't have any sweepers/counterspell to prevent being overwhelmed by secure the waste.
Even postboard they don't have that much answers to our threats (maybe one or two Utter End if they're really that midrange) and if they play blue, they can bring like 4 counterspell. Not enough to keep up with all we have going on
But yeah if you play things like silkwrap/stasis snare/quarantine field without processor, you can get blown out by dromoka's command. That's why i think it's not a good idea to play enchantment in this deck.
Never said Abzan Midrange was my hardest matchup. I said it was the only deck I lost to that night (Monday). I honestly don't know just how hard of a matchup it is because I haven't consistantly played against it yet. I also wasn't running Secure the Wastes at that time. The deck you were commenting on above, I didn't run until last night (Tuesday). Speaking of, last night... Didn't go so great. Went 1-2-Drop.
Match 1 (2-1): RG Eldrazi Ramp
Was playing against the same guy I lost to last week with an older version of my deck.
Game 1: He did all the things he was supposed to do with his deck, but couldn't get his creatures to stick. He was running Thought-Knot Seer in his deck and realized it was a mistake because I kept killing it and drawing more cards.
Game 2: He kept recurring World Breaker and blowing up my BW lands. After a while, I couldn't cast anything and he won. I forget what I boarded in and out.
No game by game analysis per se. I lost Game 1 because he curved out perfectly and my deck was too slow mana-wise to catch up. It was a quick game. Game 2 I won more so because he was testing my deck to see what it could do and less so because I piloted it correctly. I foolishly boarded in Remorseless Punishment, but his deck ran Painful Truths, so he always had cards in his hand he could easily discard. HOWEVER, he did decide to take the 10 damage instead which, ironically, helped me win the game. I also boarded in my Hallowed Moonlights but never saw them. I also made the mistake of telling my opponent I boarded them in. I usually don't discuss strategy until AFTER the match has ended, but for some reason I foolishly let slip this information. Why? Because my opponent regularly attends SCG Opens that are close to our area, knows the format EXTREMELY well, and is one of the best players in the city. Frankly, I just assumed he knew it'd be running it. Goes to show you you should never make assumptions about anything. A lesson I need to remind myself of from time to time. I visibly saw his face go "Oh, you're running Moonlight, eh?" and go back to his sideboard to make some changes. Even knowing this, I kept the Moonlights in because I knew it was my best defense for Rally recursion. In the end, it didn't matter though because AGAIN I never saw them Game 3. I probably shouldn't have taken an opening hand without one of them. He also boarded in 4 Dispels and countered my two Secure the Wastes TWICE! Collected Company + Dispel = GG on his side.
Match 3 (0-2): Jeskai Control
The games went fast. I expected to encounter Jeskai Black, but that wasn't the case. He basically ran a bunch of counter/burn spells alongside Jace, Chandra, Mantis Rider, Jeskai Charm (which I haven't seen in ages), and Monastery Mentor. I remember during Game 1, I had a Kalitas out and he had a Mantis Rider out. I'd taken 3 hits from the Rider previously, but knew I could stabilize the board if I could kill his rider. I had a Fleshbag in my hand and on my next turn I played it. He proceeded to cast Fiery Impulse targeting my Fleshbag which meant I could no longer sacrifice Fleshbag to himself and had to sac Kalitas instead. Boom, both my creatures gone in an instant. The next three turns he played a Charm, then Chandra it it was GG. Game 2 went much the same.
The take-away from all this is that I just need to learn the match-ups better. Remorseless Punishment is too much of a "cute" card and is only good against deck archetypes with no built in card draw. I only ran it because I told a friend I would and let him know how good or bad I think it is. Tonight, I think see if Stasis Snare or Linvala, the Preserver would work out better in it's place.
I've been thinking of running a possible abzan superfriends list, which is basically much like the bw build, but with nissa, voice of zendikar, oath of nissa and abzan charm, which I think is a bit superior to read the bones...I can post a deck list if anyone is interested.
I'm interested, but I don't know if this particular thread and forum are the right place to do so. I'd recommend posting it in the Standard Deck Creation Forum. As to whether Abzan Charm is better than Read the Bones? I'd say one isn't strictly better than the other. Honestly, they serve two different functions. In a BW Control deck that focuses on more removal than anything else, you're obviously not running more than two colors. So casting Charm isn't a possibility. Bones on the other hand, only requires one color. The beauty of running a deck that has only one or two colors is that your mana base is easier to create and gives you the ability to more consistently cast your spells on curve. Bones also allows you to Scry 2, giving you the ability to dig ever deeper in your library to find the answers you need. Now in a deck running Abzan colors, sure, I'd run Charm over Bones any day of the week. Do I think it's worth going Abzan Control over BW Control? I'm not sure (but I'm willing to test it out). With my particular build, which is more of midrange/control style deck because it is more creature focused, Charm would be beneficial for sure. You've given me some ideas. Thank you for this post!
EDIT: Missing a few words and ideas I had meant to add.
I didn't want to go on a tangent, especially on a established deck forum...but I didn't know if anyone had considered splashing green. Superfriend decks have always been considered somewhat control decks, and nissa, voice of zendikar, being a pretty good three drop walker seems like a good add.
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Have a couple of questions regarding this deck. I am sorry, if this has already been explained somewhere in the thread. I have only looked through last 3 pages and could not find any answer.
1. Why Seeker of the Way over Knight of the White Orchid?
1. Seeker over Knight - Not as mana intensive and provides valuable life gain.
2. No Wingmate Roc because the deck doesnt really take advantage of raid early on as your primary kill comes from EOT Secure the Wastes, next turn Sorin. By the time you get Wingmate Roc online its more of a "win more" card.
I didn't want to go on a tangent, especially on a established deck forum...but I didn't know if anyone had considered splashing green. Superfriend decks have always been considered somewhat control decks, and nissa, voice of zendikar, being a pretty good three drop walker seems like a good add.
If you feel very adamant about your build, go ahead and post it. Superfriends decks are slightly different, IMO. But, like I said before, it'd be cool to actually see what you've come up with so people can comment on the deck you're trying to build.
They say it's the smallest changes that make all the difference, and I believe this to be true. Off it's strength alone, I built this version of the deck with Abzan Charm in mind. I think it brings a lot to the table that I think the deck needs, primarily dealing with the glut of invincible big creatures in the format as well as exiling prominent deck pieces in 4C Rally, Jeskai Black, and RB Dragons. It's also extra card draw. The last mode on it is very good with Kalitas, making him an even bigger, ever growing beat stick.
I do like seer a ton, even in a deck like this, but the colorless mana can be tricky considering we are typically only running 6-7 colorless generators and can't really afford to play more alongside things like Stasis Snare, Grasp of Darkness and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
To those of you who feel good about Rally -- what makes you feel that way? I got clobbered both games, and they weren't even close. Reflector Mage completely negated Kalitas, and they were able to just beat me down without even having to worry about Rally the Ancestors. Coco was throwing out more creatures than I could deal with, and a lot faster than us. It felt like a 10/90 matchup even post board. They have easy answers to Kalitas and we have 3 Moonlights vs their 8 coco / rally.
I will happily say that Oath of Gideon T3 into T4 Sorin won every game that it occurred on. T5 Sorin Emblem is virtually unbeatable.
It can be a difficult matchup even post board but i think the amount of removal we have coupled with our trump cards like outburst, hallowed moonlight, flaying tendrils and Kalitas make it certainly winnable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VT1o0kdgk0
Here's a replay of Jeff Hoogland playing against rally, and you can see that the hallowed moonlight in his hand in both g2 and g3 kept robert in check. This game was a draw but Jeff made a misplay in turns with his Kalitas that could've won him the match.
Even counting the match where I was a stone cold idiot I'd be 3-1 against it in sanctioned matches with a good record against it in testing as well.
Don't board in Flaying Tendrils if you have it against Rally. That card is laughable at best against their sea of x/3 creatures.
4 Seeker of the Way
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Instants
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Murderous Cut
4 Secure the Wastes
1 Ultimate Price
2 Utter End
1 Valorous Stance
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorceries
1 Planar Outburst
4 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
Artifacts
1 Captain's Claws
4 Plains
7 Swamp
Lands
2 Blighted Fen
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Shambling Vent
Hardest match up is probably RB dragons. They have a lot of "go wide" cards on top of things like flamewake to generate card advantage. Would likely need 2-3 more sweepers to make it a decent matchup, but not sure that is popular enough to be relevant.
Ramp can also be close, but boarding in 4x Transgress makes it pretty reasonable post board.
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Seeker of the Way
1 Planar Outburst
1 Murderous Cut
2 Utter End
3 Stasis Snare
2 Ruinous Path
4 Painful Truths
3 Silkwrap
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Secure the Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Shambling Vent
2 Sunken Hollow
2 Prairie Stream
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Plains
1 Island
3 Swamp
1 Planar Outburst
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Negate
2 Dispel
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Infinite Obliteration
3 Duress
I went 3-1 and came in second place. I lost to an Abzan Midrange deck running nothing but quality creatures like Den Protector, Warden of the First Tree, Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc, and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. The biggest problem I had was reaching a Ruinous Path in time to kill Gideon, or having enough removal to get rid of his Rocs once he emblemed Gideon. I'm considering adding Crux of Fate or Planar Outburst into the mix. Probably Outburst. There are to LGS's that run Standard tournaments tonight. I may go to one of them. If I do, I think I'm gonna go with:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Shambling Vent
4 Scoured Barrens
12 Swamp
CREATURES (16)
3 Carrier Thrall
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
INSTANTS AND SORCERIES (14)
4 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
2 Murderous Cut
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Utter End
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Felidar Cub
4 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Languish
1 Ultimate Price
1 Ruinous Path
1 Remorseless Punishment
2 Duress
2 Planar Outburst
1 Secure the Wastes
What I like the most about this newest build is that Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim puts in work! She punishes opponents for casting their own removal spells and acts as a wall against all ground creatures that don't have invincibility. I'm not quite sure how relevant her third ability is, but it's nice IF you can get it off. I also took out Infinite Obliteration. I just find the card to be lackluster, and decks like RG Eldrazi Ramp, Abzan Midrange, and RB Dragons play so many threats in becomes irrelevant. I also took out Dark Petition and replaced it with Remorseless Punishment. I honestly think Punishment is very good against midrange/ramp decks and can keep you opponent from stabilizing the board.
EDIT: Also took out Aligned Hedron Network for another Secure the Wastes. Network hasn't done anything for me at all, and I can only think of one instance where my opponent landed a Desolation Twin or had more than one giant eldrazi on the battlefield. Plus I need those eldrazi to re-animate once I get Liliana, Defiant Necromancer's ult off (which happens way often than you think in this particular build).
Linvala, I think, is too costly for what she does. The deck already has built in lifegain with Liliana, Kalitas, Sorin, and Vent, so Linvala's first ability is redundant. And the deck already has the means to put out numerous creatures via Kalitas, Sorin, Carrier Thrall, and Secure the wastes. Which again, makes her redundant.
Quarantine Field, I'm unsure of. It's dangerous IMO to play because it allows MULTIPLE threats to re-enter the battlefield should it be destroyed. In theory, I think its very powerful, but my decks success hinges on me killing creatures, not exiling them.
Just want to point out that VERY few creatures have both haste AND lifelink. And none do it in standard (at least, not any I can think of off the top of my head). So that point is moot. But I understand the point you're making because were talking about instantaneous life gain once Linvala resolves. Its a question of if we're behind in life in a big way and we need to stabilize. But I can honestly say, there's not a single game I've played since creating my deck that I haven't been able to hit with at least a few of my life-linking creatures. If I were running more of a pure BW Control deck, I could see running her as a stabilizer, possibly a finisher. And most creatures that do go wide go wide because they are small. BUT, each creature in the deck serves a particular purpose, but the deck's success isn't predicated on any one particular creature surviving, so evasion, while nice, isn't necessary. Secure the Wastes is a much better card to bog down the ground, IMO, and it can be cast on your opponent's turn, which is huge. Many people FEAR Wastes. If I were to go the Livala route, I'd be something like:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Shambling Vent
4 Polluted Delta
4 Prairie Stream
8 Swamp
CREATURES
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Linvala, the Preserver
PLANESWALKERS
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
2 Murderous Cut
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Utter End
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Planar Outburst
1 Languish
1 Ultimate Price
ENCHENTMENTS
2 Silkwrap
2 Stasis Snare
2 Felidar Cub
4 Hallowed Moonlight
4 Arashin Cleric
1 Ultimate Price
1 Ruinous Path
1 Quarantine Field
2 Duress
See the difference? This build is running far fewer creatures, and hella more removal. Honestly, I think I may create the above deck if I can manage to acquire the missing deck pieces I currently don't have.
Agreed. To this day, Dromoka's Command has been a thorn in my side. And Abzan Midrange the bane of my existence.
I think it's the most easy matchup since they tapout for one threat per turn that we can easily kill during their turn with all our removal spell.
And they don't have any sweepers/counterspell to prevent being overwhelmed by secure the waste.
Even postboard they don't have that much answers to our threats (maybe one or two Utter End if they're really that midrange) and if they play blue, they can bring like 4 counterspell. Not enough to keep up with all we have going on
But yeah if you play things like silkwrap/stasis snare/quarantine field without processor, you can get blown out by dromoka's command. That's why i think it's not a good idea to play enchantment in this deck.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Never said Abzan Midrange was my hardest matchup. I said it was the only deck I lost to that night (Monday). I honestly don't know just how hard of a matchup it is because I haven't consistantly played against it yet. I also wasn't running Secure the Wastes at that time. The deck you were commenting on above, I didn't run until last night (Tuesday). Speaking of, last night... Didn't go so great. Went 1-2-Drop.
Match 1 (2-1): RG Eldrazi Ramp
Was playing against the same guy I lost to last week with an older version of my deck.
Game 1: He did all the things he was supposed to do with his deck, but couldn't get his creatures to stick. He was running Thought-Knot Seer in his deck and realized it was a mistake because I kept killing it and drawing more cards.
Game 2: He kept recurring World Breaker and blowing up my BW lands. After a while, I couldn't cast anything and he won. I forget what I boarded in and out.
Game 3: -3 Carrier Thrall, -3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir, -2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, +1 Ultimate Price, +1 Ruinous Path, +1 Remorseless Punishment, +2 Duress, +2 Planar Outburst, +1 Secure the Wastes. He tried his Breaker strategy again, but I wised up and made sure I kept land cards in my hand with Read the Bones instead of drawing kill spells. Liliana, Defiant Necromancer was on the battlefield and Fleshbag Marauder was in my graveyard. All I had to do was keep recurring Fleshbag or make him discard a card each turn if he couldn't play it with Lili. Eventually, I was able to stick all of my planeswalkers on the battlefield and lock him out, then used Secure the Wastes for the win.
Match 2 (1-2): 4C Rally
No game by game analysis per se. I lost Game 1 because he curved out perfectly and my deck was too slow mana-wise to catch up. It was a quick game. Game 2 I won more so because he was testing my deck to see what it could do and less so because I piloted it correctly. I foolishly boarded in Remorseless Punishment, but his deck ran Painful Truths, so he always had cards in his hand he could easily discard. HOWEVER, he did decide to take the 10 damage instead which, ironically, helped me win the game. I also boarded in my Hallowed Moonlights but never saw them. I also made the mistake of telling my opponent I boarded them in. I usually don't discuss strategy until AFTER the match has ended, but for some reason I foolishly let slip this information. Why? Because my opponent regularly attends SCG Opens that are close to our area, knows the format EXTREMELY well, and is one of the best players in the city. Frankly, I just assumed he knew it'd be running it. Goes to show you you should never make assumptions about anything. A lesson I need to remind myself of from time to time. I visibly saw his face go "Oh, you're running Moonlight, eh?" and go back to his sideboard to make some changes. Even knowing this, I kept the Moonlights in because I knew it was my best defense for Rally recursion. In the end, it didn't matter though because AGAIN I never saw them Game 3. I probably shouldn't have taken an opening hand without one of them. He also boarded in 4 Dispels and countered my two Secure the Wastes TWICE! Collected Company + Dispel = GG on his side.
Match 3 (0-2): Jeskai Control
The games went fast. I expected to encounter Jeskai Black, but that wasn't the case. He basically ran a bunch of counter/burn spells alongside Jace, Chandra, Mantis Rider, Jeskai Charm (which I haven't seen in ages), and Monastery Mentor. I remember during Game 1, I had a Kalitas out and he had a Mantis Rider out. I'd taken 3 hits from the Rider previously, but knew I could stabilize the board if I could kill his rider. I had a Fleshbag in my hand and on my next turn I played it. He proceeded to cast Fiery Impulse targeting my Fleshbag which meant I could no longer sacrifice Fleshbag to himself and had to sac Kalitas instead. Boom, both my creatures gone in an instant. The next three turns he played a Charm, then Chandra it it was GG. Game 2 went much the same.
The take-away from all this is that I just need to learn the match-ups better. Remorseless Punishment is too much of a "cute" card and is only good against deck archetypes with no built in card draw. I only ran it because I told a friend I would and let him know how good or bad I think it is. Tonight, I think see if Stasis Snare or Linvala, the Preserver would work out better in it's place.
I'm interested, but I don't know if this particular thread and forum are the right place to do so. I'd recommend posting it in the Standard Deck Creation Forum. As to whether Abzan Charm is better than Read the Bones? I'd say one isn't strictly better than the other. Honestly, they serve two different functions. In a BW Control deck that focuses on more removal than anything else, you're obviously not running more than two colors. So casting Charm isn't a possibility. Bones on the other hand, only requires one color. The beauty of running a deck that has only one or two colors is that your mana base is easier to create and gives you the ability to more consistently cast your spells on curve. Bones also allows you to Scry 2, giving you the ability to dig ever deeper in your library to find the answers you need. Now in a deck running Abzan colors, sure, I'd run Charm over Bones any day of the week. Do I think it's worth going Abzan Control over BW Control? I'm not sure (but I'm willing to test it out). With my particular build, which is more of midrange/control style deck because it is more creature focused, Charm would be beneficial for sure. You've given me some ideas. Thank you for this post!
EDIT: Missing a few words and ideas I had meant to add.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
1. Why Seeker of the Way over Knight of the White Orchid?
2. Why no Wingmate Roc?
Thanks in advance
2. No Wingmate Roc because the deck doesnt really take advantage of raid early on as your primary kill comes from EOT Secure the Wastes, next turn Sorin. By the time you get Wingmate Roc online its more of a "win more" card.
If you feel very adamant about your build, go ahead and post it. Superfriends decks are slightly different, IMO. But, like I said before, it'd be cool to actually see what you've come up with so people can comment on the deck you're trying to build.
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Shambling Vent
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Canopy Vista
3 Cinder Glade
4 Swamp
CREATURES (12)
3 Carrier Thrall
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
INSTANTS AND SORCERIES (17)
4 Abzan Charm
3 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
2 Murderous Cut
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Utter End
1 Secure the Wastes
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Silkwrap
2 Felidar Cub
4 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Languish
1 Ultimate Price
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2 Duress
2 Planar Outburst
1 Secure the Wastes
They say it's the smallest changes that make all the difference, and I believe this to be true. Off it's strength alone, I built this version of the deck with Abzan Charm in mind. I think it brings a lot to the table that I think the deck needs, primarily dealing with the glut of invincible big creatures in the format as well as exiling prominent deck pieces in 4C Rally, Jeskai Black, and RB Dragons. It's also extra card draw. The last mode on it is very good with Kalitas, making him an even bigger, ever growing beat stick.