Think the thing is you have to next level people now. Honestly the answer could be switching from combo to thopters, tons of evasion and non-combat damage. Collateral damage seems like a great card to fight exile effects. Seems like a solid deck for trumpet blast.
Temur Battle Rage + Titans/Immense is straight busted.
I really don't think so. It's basically a worse version of heroic, except that we don't have the spells to protect our dudes. Dromoka's command and basically any instant speed removal kills this deck 10 out of 10 times.
The difference is, there was not a lot of low cost instant speed removal at this latest open and previous standard had loads of it.
No surprise I like this one the most. Though the build looks messy.
At any rate, Demar's list reminds me of the Naya Ghor Clan Boros Charm builds. Likely got a lot of free wins when people didn't expect 14+ damage off his dude.
I'm not buying the no hate theory. Looking at top 8, nearly every single deck had 4+ cards for RDW. Plenty of Arashin Cleric, Radiant Flames, and such. I think Demars capitalized on the unexpected with his double strike approach. I'd be worried myself in bringing a similar deck because now the cat is out of the bag, but it does seem like an effective strategy. I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't run more Sliderunners. Trample on a decently aggressive 2-drop is a whole lot more enticing when you have a combo kill that involves a pump. I suppose really you just need one of your tokens or something to not be blocked, but doesn't hurt IMO to have the extra evasion.
I fooled around with trying to make temur battle rage work in a non-heroic deck when Fate Reforged first came out and I'm fairly sure its success at Indy had alot to do with how the format is currently light on instant speed removal. Respond to a titan's strength or become immense with a spell the removes the creature and the battle rage deck is put in a situation where the battle rage is meh or even rots in the hand. People start playing ultimate price again and the big combo easily gets three for one'd. It'll be hard for the battle rage deck to recover from that. I think that configuration was an insightful and excellent choice for Indy, but I think hating it out may be easier than people realize.
I'm not buying the no hate theory. Looking at top 8, nearly every single deck had 4+ cards for RDW. Plenty of Arashin Cleric, Radiant Flames, and such. I think Demars capitalized on the unexpected with his double strike approach. I'd be worried myself in bringing a similar deck because now the cat is out of the bag, but it does seem like an effective strategy. I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't run more Sliderunners. Trample on a decently aggressive 2-drop is a whole lot more enticing when you have a combo kill that involves a pump. I suppose really you just need one of your tokens or something to not be blocked, but doesn't hurt IMO to have the extra evasion.
People are overlooking the fact that his opponents played so passively, that is what led to so many quick kills.
I don't know but I would think the cat would be out the bag by then.
May not have realised he was all-in on the plan. Though the Temur Battle Rage is a big red flag I guess. I do agree that this deck winning will likely change play style of opponents making it harder to use.
@Kahmos: It looks interesting. Not sure on the Servants. I'd think I'd rather have a more standard curve out. One thing is definite, I think you want some fetches to get your Black to 12 sources.
Twelve sources for two black cards? You realize the Haven's tap for red/black/blue
I have 8 sources for Kolaghan and 4 for the Foul-Tongue, which I wouldn't play until later (or at all since its meant to be offensive ><)
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
So, the mono red is dead theory just got blown out of the water. Atarka Red gets better due to removal being sorcery speed. Does D's Command stop pump spells? Or Battle Rage?
So...no Eldrazi themed decks, nor ally's nor any new archetypes made a splash? I saw a 29th place finish by Ali Aintrazi, and 1 other deck at 39th.
I want to see a U/B Devoid deck make it...I really like ingest but it might only be viable in limited
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
So, the mono red is dead theory just got blown out of the water. Atarka Red gets better due to removal being sorcery speed. Does D's Command stop pump spells? Or Battle Rage?
So...no Eldrazi themed decks, nor ally's nor any new archetypes made a splash? I saw a 29th place finish by Ali Aintrazi, and 1 other deck at 39th.
I want to see a U/B Devoid deck make it...I really like ingest but it might only be viable in limited
Dromoka's command stops them if you can profitably fight the creature in response to the pump. Hell, if Majors had a valorous stance that would've profitably killed the swiftspear too.
So, the mono red is dead theory just got blown out of the water. Atarka Red gets better due to removal being sorcery speed. Does D's Command stop pump spells? Or Battle Rage?
So...no Eldrazi themed decks, nor ally's nor any new archetypes made a splash? I saw a 29th place finish by Ali Aintrazi, and 1 other deck at 39th.
I want to see a U/B Devoid deck make it...I really like ingest but it might only be viable in limited
Dromoka's command stops them if you can profitably fight the creature in response to the pump. Hell, if Majors had a valorous stance that would've profitably killed the swiftspear too.
majors thought he could chump his way through it i guess and didnt seem to find many dromokas commands. gerry thompson got closest to beating him using murderous cut.
I think game 1 it's reasonable to get off a combo kill then switch to a big red strategy after board. I mean you can say Demarrs got lucky all you want but his opponents KNEW his 75 and still didn't respect his deck. There's plenty of reasonable hate mainboard (Murderous Cut, Dromoka's Command, Valorous Stance) but players seem to think R/x aggro is going to give you time to find these cards or fill your graveyard for cut. They're too use to games consistently going past turn 10 which we have no interest in.
Also, I can't help but mention that Demarrs strategy is also a tier 3 Modern deck called suicide zoo that plays all 1 drop aggressive creatures like swiftspear, nacatal, and death's shadow then tries to kill turn 3 by combining Temur Battle rage and Become Immense. This is in a format that run's Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Terminate. This form of comboing off is not unreasonable by any stretch, Removal is as bad as it's ever been. People were trying to convince me of these perfect mana bases and I knew they were going to be far too slow, they're just perfectly slow and greedy. Can say Demarrs got lucky, it's a popular opinion, but I would say everyone else got really, really greedy.
Is Exquisite Firecraft just a bad card now? Feels like we're just asking to be blown out by Dromoka's Command by playing it. Literally every spell in Demarr's list was an instant and that seems correct.
I really like Hangarback Walker showing up game 2 and 3, seems obnoxious and more than a normal deck can deal with. I might try to acquire these after the event deck comes out.
Demars said that he wanted Thunderbreak Regent and possibly Hangarback Walker in the main and that he disliked Lightning Berserker and Makindi Sliderunner. Is the answer -2 Lightning Berserker -1 Makindi Sliderunner -1 Zurgo Bellstriker +2 Hangarback Walker +2 Thunderbreak Regent? Or maybe +4 Hangarback Walker with the Regents in the board?
This is what I'm thinking since I worry about taking out so many 1-drops.
Hangarback Walker seems like a strange inclusion for RDW. Does anyone know when he was actually siding them in? I mean, I understand it's a good card, but a 2cmc 1/1 that wants to sit back on blocks so it can have mana dumped into it to make it bigger just doesn't strike me as Red Aggro.
Maybe I can get behind it as a Sideboard card vs attrition decks. Cast early, grow one, it dies, lots of Thopers can be Commanded. Seems like a lot of hoops to jump though. And gets blown out by Abzan Charm. Just not seeing it. Perhaps it's meant for the other red decks. I don't know. They strike me almost as trolling. lol. At any rate, I don't really like the plan of mainboarding them.
I'd much rather cut the Berserkers for Thunderbreak only (which seemed to be his inclination in the post win interview). Maybe -2 Berserker, -1 Sliderunner, +3 Thunderbreak would be a better starting point.
Though personally, I think I'm still on the fliers plan. Casting Berserk and Bloodlust is cool, but was never my cup of tea. Dragons on the other hand...
Similar to other list, just swapped a Strength for a 22nd land. Given the Top8 was basically Abzan+, Esper, and Jeskai (with some Token based Red in Swiss) the sideboard didnt really need any major fixes.
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Lightning Berserker
1 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4 Zurgo Bellstriker
Lands (21)
1 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cinder Glade
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Atarka's Command
3 Become Immense
3 Temur Battle Rage
4 Titan's Strength
4 Wild Slash
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Fiery Impulse
3 Arc Lightning
2 Roast
The number of Temur Battle Rage and Become Immense is intriguing.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The difference is, there was not a lot of low cost instant speed removal at this latest open and previous standard had loads of it.
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Forerunner of Slaughter
4 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
2 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
6 Mountain
6 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Smoldering Marsh
3 Wooded Foothills
Spells (8)
4 Draconic Roar
2 Murderous Cut
2 Wild Slash
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
3 Outpost Siege
1 Virulent Plague
1 Twin Bolt
1 Wild Slash
1 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2 Arc Lightning
4 Self-Inflicted Wound
Self inflicted wound is nice out of the side.
There was a more expected "stock" Atarka list that placed 32nd:
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
1 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Lightning Berserker
3 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
Lands (21)
1 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cinder Glade
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Atarka's Command
1 Become Immense
4 Wild Slash
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Outpost Siege
3 Fiery Impulse
1 Arc Lightning
1 Boiling Earth
4 Roast
Sliderunner is good enough I guess.
Lastly, a Monored that placed 34th:
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Dragon Whisperer
4 Flamewake Phoenix
1 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Lightning Berserker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Vaultbreaker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
20 Mountain
2 Blighted Gorge
Spells (12)
2 Draconic Roar
2 Titan's Strength
4 Wild Slash
4 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Avaricious Dragon
1 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Molten Vortex
2 Outpost Siege
3 Boiling Earth
4 Roast
No surprise I like this one the most. Though the build looks messy.
At any rate, Demar's list reminds me of the Naya Ghor Clan Boros Charm builds. Likely got a lot of free wins when people didn't expect 14+ damage off his dude.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
3 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dragonlord's Servant
2 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Avaricious Dragon
3 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
Spells (16)
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Wild Slash
1 Molten Vortex
4 Draconic Roar
3 Dragon Tempest
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Blighted Gorge
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Smoldering Marsh
14 Mountain
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Berserker
3 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Crumble to Dust
May not have realised he was all-in on the plan. Though the Temur Battle Rage is a big red flag I guess. I do agree that this deck winning will likely change play style of opponents making it harder to use.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Yes the lists are public and they get to read them in between matches. No surprises once they hit the top 8.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I have 8 sources for Kolaghan and 4 for the Foul-Tongue, which I wouldn't play until later (or at all since its meant to be offensive ><)
Luck Skill Victory I guess.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Yep
You'll want more than 4 at the very least. Especially post sideboard if you plan on bringing in those black cards.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
So...no Eldrazi themed decks, nor ally's nor any new archetypes made a splash? I saw a 29th place finish by Ali Aintrazi, and 1 other deck at 39th.
I want to see a U/B Devoid deck make it...I really like ingest but it might only be viable in limited
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
majors thought he could chump his way through it i guess and didnt seem to find many dromokas commands. gerry thompson got closest to beating him using murderous cut.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
Also, I can't help but mention that Demarrs strategy is also a tier 3 Modern deck called suicide zoo that plays all 1 drop aggressive creatures like swiftspear, nacatal, and death's shadow then tries to kill turn 3 by combining Temur Battle rage and Become Immense. This is in a format that run's Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Terminate. This form of comboing off is not unreasonable by any stretch, Removal is as bad as it's ever been. People were trying to convince me of these perfect mana bases and I knew they were going to be far too slow, they're just perfectly slow and greedy. Can say Demarrs got lucky, it's a popular opinion, but I would say everyone else got really, really greedy.
Is Exquisite Firecraft just a bad card now? Feels like we're just asking to be blown out by Dromoka's Command by playing it. Literally every spell in Demarr's list was an instant and that seems correct.
I really like Hangarback Walker showing up game 2 and 3, seems obnoxious and more than a normal deck can deal with. I might try to acquire these after the event deck comes out.
This is what I'm thinking since I worry about taking out so many 1-drops.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Cinder Glade
1x Forest
8x Mountain
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (4)
4x Dragon Fodder
4x Atarka's Command
3x Become Immense
3x Temur Battle Rage
4x Titan's Strength
4x Wild Slash
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
2x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Zurgo Bellstriker
3x Arc Lightning
2x Boiling Earth
2x Fiery Impulse
2x Goblin Heelcutter
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Roast
2x Thunderbreak Regent
-LSV, 2015
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Maybe I can get behind it as a Sideboard card vs attrition decks. Cast early, grow one, it dies, lots of Thopers can be Commanded. Seems like a lot of hoops to jump though. And gets blown out by Abzan Charm. Just not seeing it. Perhaps it's meant for the other red decks. I don't know. They strike me almost as trolling. lol. At any rate, I don't really like the plan of mainboarding them.
I'd much rather cut the Berserkers for Thunderbreak only (which seemed to be his inclination in the post win interview). Maybe -2 Berserker, -1 Sliderunner, +3 Thunderbreak would be a better starting point.
4 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
3 Thunderbreak Regent
Spells
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Atarka's Command
3 Become Immense
3 Temur Battle Rage
4 Titan's Strength
4 Wild Slash
3 Cinder Glade
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
8 Mountain
4 Roast
2 Arc Lightning
3 Fiery Impulse
2 Goblin Heelcutter
4 Hangarback Walker
Though personally, I think I'm still on the fliers plan. Casting Berserk and Bloodlust is cool, but was never my cup of tea. Dragons on the other hand...
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Dragon Whisperer
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Titan's Strength
4 Wild Slash
4 Draconic Roar
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Lands (22)
22 Mountain
2 Rending Volley
3 Roast
2 Barrage of Boulders
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Goblin Heelcutter
3 Outpost Siege
Similar to other list, just swapped a Strength for a 22nd land. Given the Top8 was basically Abzan+, Esper, and Jeskai (with some Token based Red in Swiss) the sideboard didnt really need any major fixes.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)