What's exactly your SB plan against Abzan ? You're obviously siding in the Roasts but what do you swap them for ? Also, are you sold on Dragon Whisperer ? After countless test games I really don't like this card, it hasn't done anything for me, no matter when you draw it. I almost always would draw any other 2cc creature or even a lightning berzerker.
Regarding the SB; any specific reason you're running 1x Barrage of Boulders instead of Boiling Earth ?
I'm really really surprised with your results against Abzan. I have yet to find out a way to win games post sideboard.
Sideboarding: Against Abzan the 3 Roast and 2 Heelcutter come in every time. I tried out a few different plans throughout the days. If they are heavy white with Roc, I think Rending Volley is also good, and siding out the Regents and Phoenixes on the play the play might be correct. Otherwise, I was generally taking out the slower threats like Whisperer and Chandra. If I saw Hangarback, Lightning Berserker would come out usually too. Outpost might be good if you don't think they have very many Dromoka's Command. Even if they do, there are board states where they cannot cast it, but it seemed unreliable. Very good vs Jeskai, UBx and the other Red decks though.
Whisperer: I liked Whisperer. Having an extra evasive threat was nice. The pump and rebuy Phoenixes came up in a couple games. I think I forgot about Ferocious a few times. I noticed at least one game in R8 where I could have started making Dragons. Same game the jump and pump is what won, as he was on 6 and only had a Roc and Bird Token to block my Regent, rebuy Phoenix, and flying Whisperer (but had Siege Rhino on the ground). Otherwise Whisperer could generally jump over their early plays for 2 damage if I had a spare mana. 2 toughness is key. Berserker was sometimes good, but often very awkward vs Hangarbacks, Thopter Tokens, 1/1 Wardens, Swiftspears, Goblin Tokens, etc.
Boulders: think I've mentioned this a few times, but I chose Barrage since the Ferocious trigger is pretty good. I never actually got the trigger, then again, I only cast the card once.
Thanks for you report! Interesting!
But Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh is a good card?
And .... 4 Abbot + 2 Chandra + 3 Flamewake Phoenix + 4 Firecraft = 13 card with 3cc
But 2cc = Draconic roar and dragon whisperer = 6 Cards I think that very few.
Ire shaman? Dragon Fodder?
Chandra almost single handedly won me a few matches. There were some games where they would stablize on 9-11 life and I would be able to kill them using Chandra and an Exquisite Firecraft, with one more random spell to flip. She is less good in the matches where they have stacks of cheap removal. I cut her a bit, but I think I was wrong to do so, since she is a very powerful threat that demands an immediate answer.
The curve is not that bad. Abbot isn't a 3 drop. It's a 2 drop that you play on T3. Very often in the early game I would play him to dig for a land, in fact, he's one of the main reason I think this deck can play 21 land. If I had a mediocre hand and no threat on board I might play him on T2. Otherwise, just hold on to him while you do other stuff, however, don't underestimate the power of getting him on board before you do that other stuff. I won plenty of games by casting him T2 after a Swiftspear T1 so I could put on the pressure next turn with prowess triggers off my burn spell (often to remove their T2 blocker).
Nevelo - what's you opinions on Scab-Clan in the side vs the main? I'm thinking of running 3 main (in the same way that I used to run 3 Eidolons), but wondering whether Abbots would be better for prowess and being lower down the curve, as well as the later game advantage...
If I'm honest. I was disappointed with Scab-Clan. But that is mostly because I was trying it as a Chandra fill in against some of the removal heavy decks like Abzan and Jeskai when it's really intended for the UBx matchup. I think it deserves a slot in the board for UBx or otherwise control, and to a lesser extent other Rx. I was high on it and wanted to mainboard it earlier in the format, but I think I wouldn't at this point. You really need to be able to get through and trigger renowned for it to be worthwhile. Besides, I'm running Phoenix, so I don't really have much room for more 3 drops at this point.
If they have Wingmate Roc specifically, I think maybe going under them might be the best way to win. I think it is probably too difficult to go under on the Draw, so switching up on the Play might be better. Roc was the reason I lost the 4 games against the two Abzan decks that defeated me. I think I side boarded incorrectly in those matches. I tried an on the play fast strategy against my last opponent in game 3 (after losing to Roc again in game 2) and it worked. We can generally deal with most of their other early plays and keep on pressure. Roc on the other hand demands a Firecraft (or Rending Volley if we've sided it in) specifically. Even then they are left with a Bird Token. Otherwise the swing next turn will generally stablize their life total. Thunderbreak isn't specifically bad vs Roc, but it cannot really attack into one well. Phoenix is useless at that point and can't even chump one a turn. Besides, Thunderbreak and Phoenix are a bit more of a midgame evasive plan, which Roc invalidates pretty well.
I was playing mono red, but want to shift to Red/Green (Atarka's). Can anyone post the a list of 'core cards' for the deck as it sits right now and about how many of each?
I'm 6-0 in competitive matches with this deck; I've lost one game. Although I haven't been keeping up with the meta too much, it seems like Atarka Red is on par with it's power from last standard at least.
I'm unsure about my sideboard, and I'm unsure about 4 Titan's Strength and 3 Dragon Fodder; these numbers are changeable. I might want a 3rd Draconic Roar main. I won't change the amount of lands I'm playing; 19 is consistent enough in seeing 2 that I can play games, and unless I draw a brick of Dragons, I've experienced no problems with it outside of normal variance in a good 100+ test games.
For the side I'd like another Arc Lightning, potentially another Rending Volley or Fiery Impulse. If the mirror is everywhere, then I might play a 3rd Feed the Clan. If control exists in a fashion I care about, I'll consider Hordeling Outburst, which is also powerful in the mirror.
What do you guys/girls think? Anything seem completely wrong? Thanks for all tips/comments/advise!
Not sure what you're testing against but Titan's Strength is the best card in the deck. It's basically Lightning Bolt with upside and scry, it's like seriously the most powerful card in this deck by far. The game's where you draw multiples feel supremely winnable. Feed the Clan isn't how you beat Aggro, you present cost effective removal to beat aggro. Aggro mirror they're siding in a bunch of removal, cut your pump spells for creature removal.
Feed the Clan isn't how you beat Aggro, you present cost effective removal to beat aggro. Aggro mirror they're siding in a bunch of removal, cut your pump spells for creature removal.
Against other aggro decks, sure. But I've played the mirror to death this format and last. You win the mirror match by casting Thunderbreak Regent more than your opponent does plenty of times. Gaining 10 life lets you get around their aggressive pushes and play more recklessly. 10 life is several burn spells and more than a few attacks. In addition, if the combo variant of the deck just goes for it, gaining 10 life can put you out of range and then you can kill them on the crack-back.
I like the idea of adding Command to a deck with Thunderbreak. If I were building something like that, I'd likely look at cutting some of the lower impact spells like Scout and Fodder for more Roars, Chandra, and probably a single Become Immense.
Several burn spells? If your opponents are trying to burn you out in the mirror you need tougher competition, burn should be clearing creatures in the mirror. Last thing you want is an abbot or swiftspear capitalizing on the increased removal spells.
Here's the main deck I'm working on this week. I have decided to test Ire Shaman And Goblin Heelcutter a little more . From my early testing I've like Ire Shaman it's evasive especially in the early game and is a pseudo Abbot of Keral Keep later on.
Nevelo - I appreciate your list. It is something like what I have been trying to brew for GP Indy at the end of the month. Curious - Have you thought of splashing black to have access to Kolaghan, Kolaghans Cmd, and Self Inflicting Wound out of the side? Possibly adding Sarkhan? I know it would take a little away and even increase the lands. Just wanted to see what your take on it would be.
1. Control: Side out the burn spells that don't go to the dome. Though Rending is nice to kill Ojutai if they are on that. Kills Jace in a pinch. Jace is also why I keep in Wild Slash.
3. Midrange: I think this one is way too fluid to give a singular plan. Generally, Swiftspear, Zurgo, Abbot, Slash, Roar, and Firecraft always stay in.
In: There are a few tools in the board that are useful depending on exact matchup. Heelcutter and Roast always comes in vs Green decks. Rending Volley comes in if they are Jeskai or heavy white Abzan. Barrage can be an option if they have Hangarback and/or Roc. Outpost is nice vs Jeskai.
Out: What we side out varies by the type of blockers and removal. Berserker is bad vs Warden/Hangarback. Phoenix is bad vs Mantis Rider/Roc. Titan Strength is unreliable vs Jeskai. Whisperer and Chandra might not be ideal if they are very removal heavy. Thunderbreak might be too slow on the draw vs Wingmate.
Dromoka's Command is only relevant to me in context of Outpost Siege. We can to some extent play around it regarding the Burn.
So, amusing situation and up in playtesting today. I was struggling against a friend's Abzan brew, and decided to try something a little different - I added in a pair of Arcbond to throw on apparent chump blockers. In much the same way that Eidolon was a mainboard choice that hurt me as much as the opponent, but I'd outraced them, Arcbond turned out to be not only a board wipe (dropped on a Zurgo blocking a Rhino) but an extra 4 damage. Drop it on something blocking a creature with Titan's Strength for 5 damage each...
This could be an interesting card to consider, but equally could be just a cute coincidence. I'm going to run it this week and see what happens.
Should we have a different topic for the combo version of the deck?
No not at the moment. I'm Working on 3 different version of RDW at the moment. We should be able to lend are expertise to each no matter which version we run.
For the combo version; would it be worth having Conifer Strider in the sideboard?
Mostly against GW megamorph; they have no way to deal with it, and aren't really presenting a fast clock (especially if they keep dromoka's command mana up all game; and if they don't we can just combo off a normal creature)
Also should Fiery Impulse replace Wild Slash in the main board?
While it's weaker against control/abzan; it's much better against RDW, Jeskai & GW Megamorph (which are the harder match ups)
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
For the combo version; would it be worth having Conifer Strider in the sideboard?
Mostly against GW megamorph; they have no way to deal with it, and aren't really presenting a fast clock (especially if they keep dromoka's command mana up all game; and if they don't we can just combo off a normal creature)
Also should Fiery Impulse replace Wild Slash in the main board?
While it's weaker against control/abzan; it's much better against RDW, Jeskai & GW Megamorph (which are the harder match ups)
Fiery Impulse is probably a meta call. Conifer Strider is a solid game plan but you may need to up your mana to 22-23 lands. You can sb a land if necessary.
For the combo version; would it be worth having Conifer Strider in the sideboard?
Mostly against GW megamorph; they have no way to deal with it, and aren't really presenting a fast clock (especially if they keep dromoka's command mana up all game; and if they don't we can just combo off a normal creature)
Also should Fiery Impulse replace Wild Slash in the main board?
While it's weaker against control/abzan; it's much better against RDW, Jeskai & GW Megamorph (which are the harder match ups)
I don't think there's an argument here. With Lightning Strike out, Slash is one of our best burn spells and IMO shouldn't be taken out. Your question should be whether Fiery Impulse should go in as well as Wild Slash, and I would say yes, as a 2-3 of. I'm planning on running it in the same way as Magma Spray, so as the Elf says, very much a meta dependent card. Talking of meta calls, I think that Touch of the Void is a good sideboard option for Abzan megamorph/anything running Den Protectors.
The number of Temur Battle Rage and Become Immense would be for consistency, since this deck wants to win early. I watched the quarter finals and final and Brian played well and deserved the win.
Sideboarding: Against Abzan the 3 Roast and 2 Heelcutter come in every time. I tried out a few different plans throughout the days. If they are heavy white with Roc, I think Rending Volley is also good, and siding out the Regents and Phoenixes on the play the play might be correct. Otherwise, I was generally taking out the slower threats like Whisperer and Chandra. If I saw Hangarback, Lightning Berserker would come out usually too. Outpost might be good if you don't think they have very many Dromoka's Command. Even if they do, there are board states where they cannot cast it, but it seemed unreliable. Very good vs Jeskai, UBx and the other Red decks though.
Whisperer: I liked Whisperer. Having an extra evasive threat was nice. The pump and rebuy Phoenixes came up in a couple games. I think I forgot about Ferocious a few times. I noticed at least one game in R8 where I could have started making Dragons. Same game the jump and pump is what won, as he was on 6 and only had a Roc and Bird Token to block my Regent, rebuy Phoenix, and flying Whisperer (but had Siege Rhino on the ground). Otherwise Whisperer could generally jump over their early plays for 2 damage if I had a spare mana. 2 toughness is key. Berserker was sometimes good, but often very awkward vs Hangarbacks, Thopter Tokens, 1/1 Wardens, Swiftspears, Goblin Tokens, etc.
Boulders: think I've mentioned this a few times, but I chose Barrage since the Ferocious trigger is pretty good. I never actually got the trigger, then again, I only cast the card once.
Chandra almost single handedly won me a few matches. There were some games where they would stablize on 9-11 life and I would be able to kill them using Chandra and an Exquisite Firecraft, with one more random spell to flip. She is less good in the matches where they have stacks of cheap removal. I cut her a bit, but I think I was wrong to do so, since she is a very powerful threat that demands an immediate answer.
The curve is not that bad. Abbot isn't a 3 drop. It's a 2 drop that you play on T3. Very often in the early game I would play him to dig for a land, in fact, he's one of the main reason I think this deck can play 21 land. If I had a mediocre hand and no threat on board I might play him on T2. Otherwise, just hold on to him while you do other stuff, however, don't underestimate the power of getting him on board before you do that other stuff. I won plenty of games by casting him T2 after a Swiftspear T1 so I could put on the pressure next turn with prowess triggers off my burn spell (often to remove their T2 blocker).
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
If I'm honest. I was disappointed with Scab-Clan. But that is mostly because I was trying it as a Chandra fill in against some of the removal heavy decks like Abzan and Jeskai when it's really intended for the UBx matchup. I think it deserves a slot in the board for UBx or otherwise control, and to a lesser extent other Rx. I was high on it and wanted to mainboard it earlier in the format, but I think I wouldn't at this point. You really need to be able to get through and trigger renowned for it to be worthwhile. Besides, I'm running Phoenix, so I don't really have much room for more 3 drops at this point.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
2 Lightning Berserker
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Mardu Scout
3 Dragon Fodder
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Wild Slash
4 Titan's Strength
4 Atarka's Command
2 Draconic Roar
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Land
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cinder Glade
10 Mountain
2 Fiery Impulse
2 Rending Volley
4 Roast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Feed the Clan
1 Draconic Roar
2 Arc Lightning
I'm unsure about my sideboard, and I'm unsure about 4 Titan's Strength and 3 Dragon Fodder; these numbers are changeable. I might want a 3rd Draconic Roar main. I won't change the amount of lands I'm playing; 19 is consistent enough in seeing 2 that I can play games, and unless I draw a brick of Dragons, I've experienced no problems with it outside of normal variance in a good 100+ test games.
For the side I'd like another Arc Lightning, potentially another Rending Volley or Fiery Impulse. If the mirror is everywhere, then I might play a 3rd Feed the Clan. If control exists in a fashion I care about, I'll consider Hordeling Outburst, which is also powerful in the mirror.
What do you guys/girls think? Anything seem completely wrong? Thanks for all tips/comments/advise!
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Feed the Clan isn't how you beat Aggro, you present cost effective removal to beat aggro. Aggro mirror they're siding in a bunch of removal, cut your pump spells for creature removal.
Against other aggro decks, sure. But I've played the mirror to death this format and last. You win the mirror match by casting Thunderbreak Regent more than your opponent does plenty of times. Gaining 10 life lets you get around their aggressive pushes and play more recklessly. 10 life is several burn spells and more than a few attacks. In addition, if the combo variant of the deck just goes for it, gaining 10 life can put you out of range and then you can kill them on the crack-back.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Ire Shaman
1 Goblin Heelcutter
4 Titan's Strength
4 Wild Slash
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Atarka's Command
3 Temur Battle Rage
2 Become Immense
1 Forest
9 Mountain
Lands
2 Cinder Glade
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
-4 Roar, -1 Chandra; +3 Outpost, +2 Scab-Clan (If Ojutai, also: -1 Chandra, -1 Whisperer; +2 Rending)
2. Mirror: We are the control deck. Kill their stuff and then resolve a dragon or outpost.
-3 Zurgo, -3 Phoenix, -2 Berserker, -3 Titan's Strength; +3 Outpost, +2 Scab-Clan, +2 Arc Lightning, +1 Barrage, +3 Roast
3. Midrange: I think this one is way too fluid to give a singular plan. Generally, Swiftspear, Zurgo, Abbot, Slash, Roar, and Firecraft always stay in.
In: There are a few tools in the board that are useful depending on exact matchup. Heelcutter and Roast always comes in vs Green decks. Rending Volley comes in if they are Jeskai or heavy white Abzan. Barrage can be an option if they have Hangarback and/or Roc. Outpost is nice vs Jeskai.
Out: What we side out varies by the type of blockers and removal. Berserker is bad vs Warden/Hangarback. Phoenix is bad vs Mantis Rider/Roc. Titan Strength is unreliable vs Jeskai. Whisperer and Chandra might not be ideal if they are very removal heavy. Thunderbreak might be too slow on the draw vs Wingmate.
Dromoka's Command is only relevant to me in context of Outpost Siege. We can to some extent play around it regarding the Burn.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
This could be an interesting card to consider, but equally could be just a cute coincidence. I'm going to run it this week and see what happens.
Interesting idea, but seems a bit awkward to pull off.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Mostly against GW megamorph; they have no way to deal with it, and aren't really presenting a fast clock (especially if they keep dromoka's command mana up all game; and if they don't we can just combo off a normal creature)
Also should Fiery Impulse replace Wild Slash in the main board?
While it's weaker against control/abzan; it's much better against RDW, Jeskai & GW Megamorph (which are the harder match ups)
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I don't think there's an argument here. With Lightning Strike out, Slash is one of our best burn spells and IMO shouldn't be taken out. Your question should be whether Fiery Impulse should go in as well as Wild Slash, and I would say yes, as a 2-3 of. I'm planning on running it in the same way as Magma Spray, so as the Elf says, very much a meta dependent card. Talking of meta calls, I think that Touch of the Void is a good sideboard option for Abzan megamorph/anything running Den Protectors.
Alchemist's Vial Is decent and card draw is a plus.
Purse might be good if it actually tapped the creatures, otherwise there are better options for voiding a single blocker.