That's why I am attempting at having my cake and eating it too (abzan w/ jace and dig), but abzan control as it once was is dead. I think the only way for a control variant to be viable is to include a 4th color splash and even then I'm not convinced. I have been attempting blue and my buddy's red list has put up some solid results and did pretty well at state, but failed to make top 8 (Abzan Aggro took 1st). While the deck building has been fun, it may just be that the aggro variant is just the best that abzan can offer in the current meta.
Edit: The Abzan Red list went 3-2 and needed to be X-1-1 in order to make top 8. Losses were to Scales (mana screw) and G/W (Gideon)
I am trying some singletons to better face other midrange decks. I did pretty good in testing against 5-Color Bring to Light, but I haven't tested extensively against anything else. Most of the deck is pretty self explanatory and the mana has been surprisingly consistent. I should have an update after game day.
The third delta is a lot better than the 4th heath. Infinite hours of testing to decide this.
Would you be willing to post your current decklist based on these thoughts? I'm definitely interested in seeing your mana.
I came up with an old school base that I'm happy with, but I think I just want to copy someone elses fetch/battle manabase. It still gives me fits to try and come up with something.
There is a 50% chance I play this in GP this weekend.
So I am not posting any full lists until after. Regarding Mana I haven't tried Kazukis, but I thought Pauls was very good (and an improvement over the original SCG one).
I lost a few games to flooding. I lost 0 games to colors. I lost a few games to not hitting enough land drops.
But in general I was always able to curve out assuming I drew enough lands, which i assume is much harder with Shambling vents.
IMO Abzan Aggro is a nut draw deck. You don't want to plan on games going long. Of course you can sometimes win if they do (Warden is a hella of a drug), but efficient threats are much worse late in the game. Basically my feeling is that a hand with warden/hbw, anafenza and 4 drop, most commonly loses to not being able to cast them on time.
TL;DR. I think the shambling vents mana base is definitely worth investigating. But flood protection is not worth it if it screws up your ability to curve out. Note SV only increases white sources by 2.
yeah curving out is sweet, but this is a deck with 4 of at almost every slot on the curve until 4, so you often will have an opportunity to play a tap land without time walking yourself.
if you start cutting G/W fetchs, do you still have enough green to reliably cast warden on one?
So after a good hard reassessment of my build, this is where I've ended up.
-snip-
edit: I just noticed that the title changed to aggro/midrange, so please let me know if this type of build needs to be moved elsewhere.
This is just one arrogant fool's opinion, but I think your deck fits.
I also think the nomenclature sucks. The typical Abzan Aggro, Control and Midrange decks from the previous standard were all midrange decks, IMO. The meta was just compressed to midrange, so it made sense to label them differently. Now that there is a Tier 1 real aggro deck, people are not calling Abzan an aggro deck.
@AsrialX - Does it make sense to clarify that this is an inclusive Abzan thread? I know the title of your OP includes Control, but a statement to the effect that this thread covers more colors and a range of midrange decks might be helpful. The key thing is that, as TBuzzSaw said, the main abzan cards are used.
Ok, so there are some questions as to what belongs in this thread and why this thread is in established, so I'm weighing in.
1. This thread is in "Established" instead of "Proven" because the volume of Abzan Aggro/Midrange decks in the past two Top 16s of SCG Opens and 18 pts or better at PT BFZ didn't meet the 10% of the metagame requirement.
It's sort of confusing, but basically we're counting the amounts in which the deck reaches the top tables. We weigh events by just counting further back (we counted a bunch of PT decks -- over 70 -- but only 16 from an Open). While this isn't the best way to measure the finishes of a deck, it's better than, say, eyeballing it -- which was how proven/est. was sorted in prior years. In theory, this should measure how often you're going to see a deck at a GP or Open if you're doing moderately well. It's not as polished as what ktkenshinx has over at the Modern forums but it's easy to use and somewhat coherent to a non-statistician. I can also update the Proven/Est. forums weekly with the model, so we won't have outdated metagame breakdowns.
2. Abzan Control is going to have to be in a separate thread.
Ok, I know a lot of our consistent users have voiced opinions where they like having all Abzan discussions occurring in one place. It makes sense as many of you are fairly tight knit and collaborate on a variety of things. However, the fact that Abzan Aggro and Control were in the same thread last year caused some users an exceptional amount of grief -- they were, after all, very different decks.
Currently, it's not apparent whether or not Abzan Control has a place in this standard meta. Certainly, some people will play it, I've taken some data points so it is registering on the radar, but it's about as ubiquitous as fringe aggro decks. If someone would be interested in taking the time to write an Abzan Control primer, that would be appreciated. Even now, with how to build Abzan Control being in a sort of primordial, unstructured state, it's apparent that an Abzan Control would look considerably different than Abzan Aggro.
If you guys have any questions or suggestions, let me know, I'd be happy to hear them.
I suppose the only remaining question I'd have is if additional color splashes belong in the thread given that it is now in the Established Forum. For example, there were two Abzan Red lists (Caleb Myers and Oliver Tin) that went 7-3 in constructed at the Pro Tour. Were these counted towards Abzan's overall performance or were they separated out? Both featured a play set of Anafenza, Den Protectors, Siege Rhinos, and Charms. Caleb's list featured Warden and Wingmate Roc as well.
Reasonable. Abzan Control as an archetype hasn't shown up nearly enough to be in the Proven/Established sections of the forum anyway. RIP Elspeth/Courser/Thoughtseize/Downfall.
I would imagine that splashes are certainly allowed here - just think of "Abzan" in the title as reading "GWB(x)."
So after a good hard reassessment of my build, this is where I've ended up.
-snip-
edit: I just noticed that the title changed to aggro/midrange, so please let me know if this type of build needs to be moved elsewhere.
This is just one arrogant fool's opinion, but I think your deck fits.
I also think the nomenclature sucks. The typical Abzan Aggro, Control and Midrange decks from the previous standard were all midrange decks, IMO. The meta was just compressed to midrange, so it made sense to label them differently. Now that there is a Tier 1 real aggro deck, people are not calling Abzan an aggro deck.
@AsrialX - Does it make sense to clarify that this is an inclusive Abzan thread? I know the title of your OP includes Control, but a statement to the effect that this thread covers more colors and a range of midrange decks might be helpful. The key thing is that, as TBuzzSaw said, the main abzan cards are used.
Ok, so there are some questions as to what belongs in this thread and why this thread is in established, so I'm weighing in.
1. This thread is in "Established" instead of "Proven" because the volume of Abzan Aggro/Midrange decks in the past two Top 16s of SCG Opens and 18 pts or better at PT BFZ didn't meet the 10% of the metagame requirement.
It's sort of confusing, but basically we're counting the amounts in which the deck reaches the top tables. We weigh events by just counting further back (we counted a bunch of PT decks -- over 70 -- but only 16 from an Open). While this isn't the best way to measure the finishes of a deck, it's better than, say, eyeballing it -- which was how proven/est. was sorted in prior years. In theory, this should measure how often you're going to see a deck at a GP or Open if you're doing moderately well. It's not as polished as what ktkenshinx has over at the Modern forums but it's easy to use and somewhat coherent to a non-statistician. I can also update the Proven/Est. forums weekly with the model, so we won't have outdated metagame breakdowns.
2. Abzan Control is going to have to be in a separate thread.
Ok, I know a lot of our consistent users have voiced opinions where they like having all Abzan discussions occurring in one place. It makes sense as many of you are fairly tight knit and collaborate on a variety of things. However, the fact that Abzan Aggro and Control were in the same thread last year caused some users an exceptional amount of grief -- they were, after all, very different decks.
Currently, it's not apparent whether or not Abzan Control has a place in this standard meta. Certainly, some people will play it, I've taken some data points so it is registering on the radar, but it's about as ubiquitous as fringe aggro decks. If someone would be interested in taking the time to write an Abzan Control primer, that would be appreciated. Even now, with how to build Abzan Control being in a sort of primordial, unstructured state, it's apparent that an Abzan Control would look considerably different than Abzan Aggro.
If you guys have any questions or suggestions, let me know, I'd be happy to hear them.
-- Lugger
Well, so much for this arrogant fool's opinion.
@xBattleSpawnx - please accept my apologies for the encouragement. I enjoyed seeing your decklists, so thank you also.
If I get tired of playing five color Abzan Ramp, I could try to write up a control primer, but the hypocrisy of trying to do it when I'm not playing it is too much for even I. I actually think that Bring to Light decks are a variant of Abzan Control and it needs a primer also, so maybe I've ruffled enough feathers and should just shut up.
Anyhoo, thanks to all for your tolerance, keep up the good work and, unless I start playing more aggro-ish midrange, ciao.
I suppose the only remaining question I'd have is if additional color splashes belong in the thread given that it is now in the Established Forum. For example, there were two Abzan Red lists (Caleb Myers and Oliver Tin) that went 7-3 in constructed at the Pro Tour. Were these counted towards Abzan's overall performance or were they separated out? Both featured a play set of Anafenza, Den Protectors, Siege Rhinos, and Charms. Caleb's list featured Warden and Wingmate Roc as well.
I think allowing a splash is reasonable. I don't want to foster the lack of innovation. On the other hand, we may get to the point at which Abzan Red (assuming it were to get popular) would have to be in separate threads if the deck ends up becoming distinct enough. Basically, we want to maintain flexibility for our users to discuss what they want while also having categories for decks. Obviously, there is going to be some tension.
As to Caleb Myers and Oliver Tin:
I actually recorded Myer's list as Aggro and Tin's list as Control. Tin's list skates the line between aggro and control so I played it safe and called it Control (it does look quite "grindy" and can SB into 5 board wipes). Notably, if it had been counted as Aggro it would not have bumped this thread into Proven.
So after a good hard reassessment of my build, this is where I've ended up.
-snip-
edit: I just noticed that the title changed to aggro/midrange, so please let me know if this type of build needs to be moved elsewhere.
This is just one arrogant fool's opinion, but I think your deck fits.
I also think the nomenclature sucks. The typical Abzan Aggro, Control and Midrange decks from the previous standard were all midrange decks, IMO. The meta was just compressed to midrange, so it made sense to label them differently. Now that there is a Tier 1 real aggro deck, people are not calling Abzan an aggro deck.
@AsrialX - Does it make sense to clarify that this is an inclusive Abzan thread? I know the title of your OP includes Control, but a statement to the effect that this thread covers more colors and a range of midrange decks might be helpful. The key thing is that, as TBuzzSaw said, the main abzan cards are used.
Ok, so there are some questions as to what belongs in this thread and why this thread is in established, so I'm weighing in.
1. This thread is in "Established" instead of "Proven" because the volume of Abzan Aggro/Midrange decks in the past two Top 16s of SCG Opens and 18 pts or better at PT BFZ didn't meet the 10% of the metagame requirement.
It's sort of confusing, but basically we're counting the amounts in which the deck reaches the top tables. We weigh events by just counting further back (we counted a bunch of PT decks -- over 70 -- but only 16 from an Open). While this isn't the best way to measure the finishes of a deck, it's better than, say, eyeballing it -- which was how proven/est. was sorted in prior years. In theory, this should measure how often you're going to see a deck at a GP or Open if you're doing moderately well. It's not as polished as what ktkenshinx has over at the Modern forums but it's easy to use and somewhat coherent to a non-statistician. I can also update the Proven/Est. forums weekly with the model, so we won't have outdated metagame breakdowns.
2. Abzan Control is going to have to be in a separate thread.
Ok, I know a lot of our consistent users have voiced opinions where they like having all Abzan discussions occurring in one place. It makes sense as many of you are fairly tight knit and collaborate on a variety of things. However, the fact that Abzan Aggro and Control were in the same thread last year caused some users an exceptional amount of grief -- they were, after all, very different decks.
Currently, it's not apparent whether or not Abzan Control has a place in this standard meta. Certainly, some people will play it, I've taken some data points so it is registering on the radar, but it's about as ubiquitous as fringe aggro decks. If someone would be interested in taking the time to write an Abzan Control primer, that would be appreciated. Even now, with how to build Abzan Control being in a sort of primordial, unstructured state, it's apparent that an Abzan Control would look considerably different than Abzan Aggro.
If you guys have any questions or suggestions, let me know, I'd be happy to hear them.
-- Lugger
Well, so much for this arrogant fool's opinion.
@xBattleSpawnx - please accept my apologies for the encouragement. I enjoyed seeing your decklists, so thank you also.
If I get tired of playing five color Abzan Ramp, I could try to write up a control primer, but the hypocrisy of trying to do it when I'm not playing it is too much for even I. I actually think that Bring to Light decks are a variant of Abzan Control and it needs a primer also, so maybe I've ruffled enough feathers and should just shut up.
Anyhoo, thanks to all for your tolerance, keep up the good work and, unless I start playing more aggro-ish midrange, ciao.
Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I think some amount of structure will help the direction of the discussion (fingers crossed). Just as a note, if it plays Siege Rhino, Warden, and Abzan Charm -- and it beats face -- it probably belongs here.
Finally made my first Top 8 of the new standard last night. Tuesdays are pretty competitive at my LGS and while it isn't an IQ or anything, you'll still come across several solid builds (especially Dark Jeskai right now).
I went 2-1-1 with my draw coming down to my opponent's slow play.
The deck felt solid all night, with the most recent changes helping the deck be more consistent. There are still tweaks to be made and I've noticed a few issues with flooding, but I'm not too sure what I can do to fix that (maybe tweak the mana to contain Shambling vent?).
Games:
Rd 1 vs U/W Awaken Control: 2-0
Both of these games were pretty straight forward. Hangarback and Jace allowed me to pull ahead pretty quickly and having access to Dig really helped keep my hand full of relevant threats that either ran him out of counter spells or just overwhelmed what he was doing. Bringing in Dispel out of the side was a blow out. IF you are running a light blue splash, this card is worth including in the side. It put in a ton of work for me all night.
Rd 2 vs Jeskai Black: 0-2
Game one I couldn't find a green source and quickly fell behind. I don't usually get color screwed, but when I do it tends to be in one of the major colors I need that I happen to have the most sources for (Green or Black). Game 2 should have been a win, but I failed to find any removal and Exert Influence being flashed back off of Jace is a really good way to turn the tables. Follow up stealing two of my critters with two mantis riders and well... I've been thinking about sideboarding that card and after seeing it completely hose me last night, it makes me want to even more. I don't recall boarding in Disdainful Stroke, which was definitely a mistake on my part.
Rd 3 vs Jund Aristocrats: 1-1-1
Game one I was color screwed. Needed black mana and had plenty of relevant answers to his board state, but couldn't get there. Brought in Anafenza for game two and completely shut him down. Game 3 was going the same way of game 2, with Anafenza taking care of any Aristocrats nonsense, but my opponent started taking several minutes on each turn and doing very little (such as finally deciding to equip ghostfire blade onto a creature and passing turn).
Rd 4 vs G/W Megamorph: 2-1
Game one was a slug fest, but wingmate roc eventually got him there. Games 2 and 3 went the way of Abzan Charm and Disdainful Stroke / Dispel. I boarded in Anafenza, but never saw her unfortunately. Dispel vs Dromoka's Command is amazing and being able to counter Gideon or Wingmate went a long way too.
Overall the blue splash I felt provided me with a couple of key answers to several tough matches and the overall changes to the deck feel solid. There's still some work to be done in the mana base to make it a little more consistent, and some card selection could perhaps be looked at. Ob Nixilis, Reignited was kind of underwhelming and was boarded out frequently. I'm not sure if a 1 of Gideon would be worth it though since that seems to be 4 of type of card in most builds.
Ok, so there are some questions as to what belongs in this thread and why this thread is in established, so I'm weighing in.
1. This thread is in "Established" instead of "Proven" because the volume of Abzan Aggro/Midrange decks in the past two Top 16s of SCG Opens and 18 pts or better at PT BFZ didn't meet the 10% of the metagame requirement.
It's sort of confusing, but basically we're counting the amounts in which the deck reaches the top tables. We weigh events by just counting further back (we counted a bunch of PT decks -- over 70 -- but only 16 from an Open). While this isn't the best way to measure the finishes of a deck, it's better than, say, eyeballing it -- which was how proven/est. was sorted in prior years. In theory, this should measure how often you're going to see a deck at a GP or Open if you're doing moderately well. It's not as polished as what ktkenshinx has over at the Modern forums but it's easy to use and somewhat coherent to a non-statistician. I can also update the Proven/Est. forums weekly with the model, so we won't have outdated metagame breakdowns.
If you guys have any questions or suggestions, let me know, I'd be happy to hear them.
-- Lugger
Because winning Pro Tour KTK and Pro Tour BFZ wasn't enough for Abzan?
Ok, so there are some questions as to what belongs in this thread and why this thread is in established, so I'm weighing in.
1. This thread is in "Established" instead of "Proven" because the volume of Abzan Aggro/Midrange decks in the past two Top 16s of SCG Opens and 18 pts or better at PT BFZ didn't meet the 10% of the metagame requirement.
It's sort of confusing, but basically we're counting the amounts in which the deck reaches the top tables. We weigh events by just counting further back (we counted a bunch of PT decks -- over 70 -- but only 16 from an Open). While this isn't the best way to measure the finishes of a deck, it's better than, say, eyeballing it -- which was how proven/est. was sorted in prior years. In theory, this should measure how often you're going to see a deck at a GP or Open if you're doing moderately well. It's not as polished as what ktkenshinx has over at the Modern forums but it's easy to use and somewhat coherent to a non-statistician. I can also update the Proven/Est. forums weekly with the model, so we won't have outdated metagame breakdowns.
If you guys have any questions or suggestions, let me know, I'd be happy to hear them.
-- Lugger
Because winning Pro Tour KTK and Pro Tour BFZ wasn't enough for Abzan?
Please take the time to read our deck criteria for each section.
We just got away from a system heavily influenced by perception bias (rather than imperfect measuring sticks; which we have now). I don't intend to go back.
hi all i just started to use abzan after rotation and I was using GR devotion before. Im using Kazuyuki Takimura for the main board but my sideboard looks like this:
my sideboard plan is simple
transgress the mind for bring to light decks taking out dromoka command
duress and tasigur for control deck out dromoka command
silkwrap for jeskai, depending on what I see it will be a split between charm, command and even wardern if he has so many removals specially if im on a draw, more controlling.
ultimate price for decks with lots of mono colored creatures (GW, Atarka, Aristocrat)
sorin for 1 Gideon for aggro decks
first game, 2-0 vs GW megamorph
Game 1 I curved very well with 2 rhinos in my hand and a couple of spells.
Game 2 was very close, my hand is ok but his curve was better and more aggro and he made a very good play (attack with lvl1 warden against my anafenza, im tapped out after casting anafenza and also attacking with warden, I blocked with anafenza and he casted dromoka to add counter to his warden, fight my warden and both creatures died after combat), then he made a mistake, he attacked with Gideon and dragon slayer on my untapped denP and Anafenza, I blocked the dragonslayer with anafenza and he casted dromoka for Gideon to fight anafenza.... he should have put the counter on HDS and let Gideon fight den protector, next turn I killed Gideon with my DP and drew my Gideon to keep his HDS helpless against my allies... I still went down to 6 but I drew sorin and wingmate.
I only boarded in sorin for Gideon, I feel that my main is already good enough against him but maybe ill add 1 more wingmate roc to replace 1 copy of transgress sideboard for these kind of matches and mirror maybe.
first game, 2-0 vs GW megamorph
Game 1 was close, I thought he is playing hardened scales when he casted avatar but he explained that he added that for mantis riders, which make sense i think. it's a very close game and we are playing around each others command and charm, but i think i should have just exiled his creatures than waiting for him to do cast command (not recommended against good players).. i died because of the den protector that i cant block with thopters. life is 4 vs 5, i can kill him next turn if i was able to chump block his DP.
Game 2 was sad for me... my hand was 5 lands, command and rhino.. i decided to mull knowing his turn 1-3 could be devasting to gamble and wait to cast rhino. my hand after mull and land on top was good but he curved very well again. warden, lvl warden, nissa, Gideon, then command my warden and i was stuck at 3 lands.. GG.
i sideboard ultimate price (which i should have done on game 1 too) and sorin but i think i made a mistake of taking out 2 warden (because he targets them a lot for his dromoka and i don't want spend a turn on lvling him)
any suggestions of the sideboard plan against GW? sometimes i fell its not needed.
I was paired up game 3 so the other guy offered a pack (6,2,1 prize for 7$ entry) for me to concede and i happy but a bit disappointed because i want to play more in preparation for gameday.
we got 7 packs and he asked me to choose 2, my packs are all junk and he opened 1 Gideon and 1 drana plus a rare land. i wasn't able to sleep well last night. hahahaha
Is there a consensus on mana base at this point? I see several lists running Shambling Vent as a 4 of vs a fetch heavier mana base. Does this mostly come down to the amount of B needed overall?
Since I am running a blue splash, I have an obvious preference to getting all my colors quickly and untapped, but it seems like vent might be a good tool against flooding and giving the deck something to do in the mid to late game top deck battles.
Edit: The Abzan Red list went 3-2 and needed to be X-1-1 in order to make top 8. Losses were to Scales (mana screw) and G/W (Gideon)
4 Siege Rhino
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Den Protector
3 Deathmist Raptor
3 Woodland Wanderer
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
Planeswalkers:
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instants:
4 Abzan Charm
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Murderous Cut
2 Radiant Flames
Lands:
2 Shambling Vent
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Cinder Glade
2 Canopy Vista
2 Plains
4 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
1 Radiant Flames
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Ultimate Price
2 Crackling Doom
2 Utter End
2 Silkwrap
3 Duress
3 Surge of Righteousness
I am trying some singletons to better face other midrange decks. I did pretty good in testing against 5-Color Bring to Light, but I haven't tested extensively against anything else. Most of the deck is pretty self explanatory and the mana has been surprisingly consistent. I should have an update after game day.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I came up with an old school base that I'm happy with, but I think I just want to copy someone elses fetch/battle manabase. It still gives me fits to try and come up with something.
So I am not posting any full lists until after. Regarding Mana I haven't tried Kazukis, but I thought Pauls was very good (and an improvement over the original SCG one).
I lost a few games to flooding. I lost 0 games to colors. I lost a few games to not hitting enough land drops.
But in general I was always able to curve out assuming I drew enough lands, which i assume is much harder with Shambling vents.
IMO Abzan Aggro is a nut draw deck. You don't want to plan on games going long. Of course you can sometimes win if they do (Warden is a hella of a drug), but efficient threats are much worse late in the game. Basically my feeling is that a hand with warden/hbw, anafenza and 4 drop, most commonly loses to not being able to cast them on time.
TL;DR. I think the shambling vents mana base is definitely worth investigating. But flood protection is not worth it if it screws up your ability to curve out. Note SV only increases white sources by 2.
">Helping to Invent Thopter/Depths in Old Ext
Creator of the Magic Humor Videos:
The Vintage Metagame The Original
if you start cutting G/W fetchs, do you still have enough green to reliably cast warden on one?
Did you mean Flooded Strand?
Edit: Nevermind, looked at the list.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
States Minnesota 2nd Place: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1251885
Wow that 1st place list is literally what my list wants to look like with some tweaking. Not a fan of the sideboard though.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
This is just one arrogant fool's opinion, but I think your deck fits.
I also think the nomenclature sucks. The typical Abzan Aggro, Control and Midrange decks from the previous standard were all midrange decks, IMO. The meta was just compressed to midrange, so it made sense to label them differently. Now that there is a Tier 1 real aggro deck, people are not calling Abzan an aggro deck.
@AsrialX - Does it make sense to clarify that this is an inclusive Abzan thread? I know the title of your OP includes Control, but a statement to the effect that this thread covers more colors and a range of midrange decks might be helpful. The key thing is that, as TBuzzSaw said, the main abzan cards are used.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
1. This thread is in "Established" instead of "Proven" because the volume of Abzan Aggro/Midrange decks in the past two Top 16s of SCG Opens and 18 pts or better at PT BFZ didn't meet the 10% of the metagame requirement.
It's sort of confusing, but basically we're counting the amounts in which the deck reaches the top tables. We weigh events by just counting further back (we counted a bunch of PT decks -- over 70 -- but only 16 from an Open). While this isn't the best way to measure the finishes of a deck, it's better than, say, eyeballing it -- which was how proven/est. was sorted in prior years. In theory, this should measure how often you're going to see a deck at a GP or Open if you're doing moderately well. It's not as polished as what ktkenshinx has over at the Modern forums but it's easy to use and somewhat coherent to a non-statistician. I can also update the Proven/Est. forums weekly with the model, so we won't have outdated metagame breakdowns.
2. Abzan Control is going to have to be in a separate thread.
Ok, I know a lot of our consistent users have voiced opinions where they like having all Abzan discussions occurring in one place. It makes sense as many of you are fairly tight knit and collaborate on a variety of things. However, the fact that Abzan Aggro and Control were in the same thread last year caused some users an exceptional amount of grief -- they were, after all, very different decks.
Currently, it's not apparent whether or not Abzan Control has a place in this standard meta. Certainly, some people will play it, I've taken some data points so it is registering on the radar, but it's about as ubiquitous as fringe aggro decks. If someone would be interested in taking the time to write an Abzan Control primer, that would be appreciated. Even now, with how to build Abzan Control being in a sort of primordial, unstructured state, it's apparent that an Abzan Control would look considerably different than Abzan Aggro.
If you guys have any questions or suggestions, let me know, I'd be happy to hear them.
-- Lugger
I would imagine that splashes are certainly allowed here - just think of "Abzan" in the title as reading "GWB(x)."
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Well, so much for this arrogant fool's opinion.
@xBattleSpawnx - please accept my apologies for the encouragement. I enjoyed seeing your decklists, so thank you also.
If I get tired of playing five color Abzan Ramp, I could try to write up a control primer, but the hypocrisy of trying to do it when I'm not playing it is too much for even I. I actually think that Bring to Light decks are a variant of Abzan Control and it needs a primer also, so maybe I've ruffled enough feathers and should just shut up.
Anyhoo, thanks to all for your tolerance, keep up the good work and, unless I start playing more aggro-ish midrange, ciao.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I think allowing a splash is reasonable. I don't want to foster the lack of innovation. On the other hand, we may get to the point at which Abzan Red (assuming it were to get popular) would have to be in separate threads if the deck ends up becoming distinct enough. Basically, we want to maintain flexibility for our users to discuss what they want while also having categories for decks. Obviously, there is going to be some tension.
As to Caleb Myers and Oliver Tin:
I actually recorded Myer's list as Aggro and Tin's list as Control. Tin's list skates the line between aggro and control so I played it safe and called it Control (it does look quite "grindy" and can SB into 5 board wipes). Notably, if it had been counted as Aggro it would not have bumped this thread into Proven.
Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I think some amount of structure will help the direction of the discussion (fingers crossed). Just as a note, if it plays Siege Rhino, Warden, and Abzan Charm -- and it beats face -- it probably belongs here.
I went 2-1-1 with my draw coming down to my opponent's slow play.
2x Canopy Vista
4x Flooded Strand
4x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
2x Prairie Stream
2x Sunken Hollow
3x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (3)
3x Silkwrap
Creature (19)
4x Den Protector
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
4x Siege Rhino
4x Abzan Charm
2x Dig Through Time
2x Murderous Cut
1x Utter End
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Sorcery (3)
2x Languish
1x Ruinous Path
3x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Dispel
1x Languish
1x Ojutai's Command
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Sultai Charm
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
The deck felt solid all night, with the most recent changes helping the deck be more consistent. There are still tweaks to be made and I've noticed a few issues with flooding, but I'm not too sure what I can do to fix that (maybe tweak the mana to contain Shambling vent?).
Games:
Rd 1 vs U/W Awaken Control: 2-0
Both of these games were pretty straight forward. Hangarback and Jace allowed me to pull ahead pretty quickly and having access to Dig really helped keep my hand full of relevant threats that either ran him out of counter spells or just overwhelmed what he was doing. Bringing in Dispel out of the side was a blow out. IF you are running a light blue splash, this card is worth including in the side. It put in a ton of work for me all night.
Rd 2 vs Jeskai Black: 0-2
Game one I couldn't find a green source and quickly fell behind. I don't usually get color screwed, but when I do it tends to be in one of the major colors I need that I happen to have the most sources for (Green or Black). Game 2 should have been a win, but I failed to find any removal and Exert Influence being flashed back off of Jace is a really good way to turn the tables. Follow up stealing two of my critters with two mantis riders and well... I've been thinking about sideboarding that card and after seeing it completely hose me last night, it makes me want to even more. I don't recall boarding in Disdainful Stroke, which was definitely a mistake on my part.
Rd 3 vs Jund Aristocrats: 1-1-1
Game one I was color screwed. Needed black mana and had plenty of relevant answers to his board state, but couldn't get there. Brought in Anafenza for game two and completely shut him down. Game 3 was going the same way of game 2, with Anafenza taking care of any Aristocrats nonsense, but my opponent started taking several minutes on each turn and doing very little (such as finally deciding to equip ghostfire blade onto a creature and passing turn).
Rd 4 vs G/W Megamorph: 2-1
Game one was a slug fest, but wingmate roc eventually got him there. Games 2 and 3 went the way of Abzan Charm and Disdainful Stroke / Dispel. I boarded in Anafenza, but never saw her unfortunately. Dispel vs Dromoka's Command is amazing and being able to counter Gideon or Wingmate went a long way too.
Overall the blue splash I felt provided me with a couple of key answers to several tough matches and the overall changes to the deck feel solid. There's still some work to be done in the mana base to make it a little more consistent, and some card selection could perhaps be looked at. Ob Nixilis, Reignited was kind of underwhelming and was boarded out frequently. I'm not sure if a 1 of Gideon would be worth it though since that seems to be 4 of type of card in most builds.
FNM results differ from actual GPs/SCG tourneys/Pro-Tour.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Because winning Pro Tour KTK and Pro Tour BFZ wasn't enough for Abzan?
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Please take the time to read our deck criteria for each section.
We just got away from a system heavily influenced by perception bias (rather than imperfect measuring sticks; which we have now). I don't intend to go back.
3 Silkwrap
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Ultimate Price
Any tips? So far im having a real bad time with Jeskai Black their tempo is just so good
thanks in advance!
3 Hangarback Walker
4 Den Protector
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2 wingmate roc
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Abzan Charm
4 Dromoka's Command
1 murderous cut
2 Plains
2 canopy vista
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 sunken hollow
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Shambling Vent
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 transgress the mind
2 ultimate price
2 tasigur
1 sorin
2 ultimate price
3 silkwrap
15 sideboard
my sideboard plan is simple
transgress the mind for bring to light decks taking out dromoka command
duress and tasigur for control deck out dromoka command
silkwrap for jeskai, depending on what I see it will be a split between charm, command and even wardern if he has so many removals specially if im on a draw, more controlling.
ultimate price for decks with lots of mono colored creatures (GW, Atarka, Aristocrat)
sorin for 1 Gideon for aggro decks
first game, 2-0 vs GW megamorph
Game 1 I curved very well with 2 rhinos in my hand and a couple of spells.
Game 2 was very close, my hand is ok but his curve was better and more aggro and he made a very good play (attack with lvl1 warden against my anafenza, im tapped out after casting anafenza and also attacking with warden, I blocked with anafenza and he casted dromoka to add counter to his warden, fight my warden and both creatures died after combat), then he made a mistake, he attacked with Gideon and dragon slayer on my untapped denP and Anafenza, I blocked the dragonslayer with anafenza and he casted dromoka for Gideon to fight anafenza.... he should have put the counter on HDS and let Gideon fight den protector, next turn I killed Gideon with my DP and drew my Gideon to keep his HDS helpless against my allies... I still went down to 6 but I drew sorin and wingmate.
I only boarded in sorin for Gideon, I feel that my main is already good enough against him but maybe ill add 1 more wingmate roc to replace 1 copy of transgress sideboard for these kind of matches and mirror maybe.
first game, 2-0 vs GW megamorph
Game 1 was close, I thought he is playing hardened scales when he casted avatar but he explained that he added that for mantis riders, which make sense i think. it's a very close game and we are playing around each others command and charm, but i think i should have just exiled his creatures than waiting for him to do cast command (not recommended against good players).. i died because of the den protector that i cant block with thopters. life is 4 vs 5, i can kill him next turn if i was able to chump block his DP.
Game 2 was sad for me... my hand was 5 lands, command and rhino.. i decided to mull knowing his turn 1-3 could be devasting to gamble and wait to cast rhino. my hand after mull and land on top was good but he curved very well again. warden, lvl warden, nissa, Gideon, then command my warden and i was stuck at 3 lands.. GG.
i sideboard ultimate price (which i should have done on game 1 too) and sorin but i think i made a mistake of taking out 2 warden (because he targets them a lot for his dromoka and i don't want spend a turn on lvling him)
any suggestions of the sideboard plan against GW? sometimes i fell its not needed.
I was paired up game 3 so the other guy offered a pack (6,2,1 prize for 7$ entry) for me to concede and i happy but a bit disappointed because i want to play more in preparation for gameday.
we got 7 packs and he asked me to choose 2, my packs are all junk and he opened 1 Gideon and 1 drana plus a rare land. i wasn't able to sleep well last night. hahahaha
Since I am running a blue splash, I have an obvious preference to getting all my colors quickly and untapped, but it seems like vent might be a good tool against flooding and giving the deck something to do in the mid to late game top deck battles.