Dean knew that his opponent was sitting on gas, so I think drawing two might have given him the best shot at winning there. He was in the position where he could no longer race before Takimura could draw out of it, so he was stuck playing for the long game there, which he didn't end up doing.
_______________
Upon watching the vid a 2nd time, it looks as though Dean though his knight would trade with the Warden, which would've been fine, but Warden is unclear from a design perspective when it's repping levels and +1/+1 counters. It's a common mistake so I can totally see that being the case.
Tough call. I think I would have drawn 2 and probably not attacked with Anafenza and the Knight token, but I tend to play fairly conservatively and lean towards the control side of things. At the very least it would have left him with 2 knight tokens, the anafenza, and a thopter to take on 2 rhinos and a warden. Not a pleasant situation to be in, but could be worse.
I think that Abzan winning the PT is bad news for the immediate future of Abzan players. Probably expect to see a lot more Rhino hate (Valorous Stance, Disdainful Stroke, Roast) at your local events than you have been seeing the past couple weeks as other players are going to be expecting that Abzan will see a temporary surge.
I think that Abzan winning the PT is bad news for the immediate future of Abzan players. Probably expect to see a lot more Rhino hate (Valorous Stance, Disdainful Stroke, Roast) at your local events than you have been seeing the past couple weeks as other players are going to be expecting that Abzan will see a temporary surge.
One of the most interesting things for me watching the Pro Tour top 8 coverage was how none of the opponents of Abzan, in detailing how they plan on sideboarding, were bringing in Disdainful Stroke. I am pretty sure neither Muller nor Turtenwald brought in the Disdainful Strokes that they had access to.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Why is this in established instead of proven? Abzan aggro was very well represented with two in the top 8 and three others with 8+ wins in the standard portion
I know that Pantheon genuinely thought that strokes were bad in the matchup. However, these segments are filmed before the matches take place in view of other top 8 competitors and their accompanying players (though no sound). So players are almost incentivized to just make ***** up in order to not give away their actual plan. I can't say whether thats what anyone actually did, but I wouldn't necessarily hold them to what they said on screen.
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I think holding the abzan charm is pretty reasonable in that spot. If his top card is a removal spell, he just wins the game immediately. However if the draw 2 finds only 1 removal spell he is basically in the same spot that he started. If he draws a rhino then holding it would of been slightly bad.
Attacking with the knight is a mistake, since the only spell that makes sense is abzan charm in that spot (all other removal would be cast before blocks). So the double block (which severely punishes the attack) is almost always going to happen.
I think the two options (after holding charm which I like). Is powering up gideon and attacking with everything (which basically loses to a dromoka's command, but can beat a lot of other things and makes abzan charm less obvious). Or attacking with just anafenza and thopter. Making a 2nd knight to double block warden.
Why is this in established instead of proven? Abzan aggro was very well represented with two in the top 8 and three others with 8+ wins in the standard portion
Anyway, what do you think would've happened if when Takimura played his first Rhino, Dean had just drawn two with his Abzan Charm?
Why do you think Dean should have drawn 2 instead of exiling the Rhino?
I think playing the Charm defensively was the circumstance of where Dean found himself. I, personally, would've taken the line where I draw two and try and get more looks at cards to push something through. The Charm was going to draw him into more lands, which would've been bad but I think it would've given him a better chance (not knowing the top 4 cards) than 1-for-1ing a Rhino knowing that your opponent has rhinos, rocs, or gideons waiting for land drops.
________________________________
Ultimately, I think the value of the charm was reduced by the attack he made with the knight and Anafenza but I'm positive Dean thought Warden was a 3/3 so it's sort of irrelevant.
I do like Siow's line of firing up Gideon and swinging with the team however. It's not one I saw in retrospect and might have forced more awkward blocks.
So I'm still on board the Why-Not-Both camp in terms of playing traditional Abzan Aggro with Raptors. My list from the previous week basically looks like the Pro list only with Raptors and Sorin instead of Gideon and Wingmate. Again, the only reason why I played Sorin over Gideon was the heavy presence of Dark Jeskai starting to pop up in my meta.
I'm interested in seeing how that does. I just cut Raptors out of my build and will be trying out Nissa instead. I don't love dropping the raptors, but it will be easier on my mana base and a little more in line with what my deck is trying to do.
I don't think Dean played all that well. He should've drawn 2.
But more obviously, he and others misplayed Gideon. When there were obvious chances to just +1 and bash for 5, they missed it. I think the +1 is the most overlooked mode and people are not using it enough. Instead people go for the 'value' play of making tokens and lose. There was one super obvious game where there were total control of the board (opp mana screwed) and instead of bashing, he tried to make 2/2(!). Big mistake, he should've crunched in, forced some terrible blocks and won the game. He wound up losing, and Takada (sp) ignored Gideon! He just bashed away and won.
The takeaway; Gideo is OK, but don't go nuts on his 2/2's. I think Sorin is actually better because you +1 and smash and that just wins you games (even though people don't realize why). This is an AGGRO deck. Letting your opp. set up and you going ahead with 2/2's for 4 mana is terrible. 4 Mana Bad Moon, equally terrible! OR, 4 Mana, 5/5 Hasty industructible guy coming over. Think about it.
I don't think Dean played all that well. He should've drawn 2.
But more obviously, he and others misplayed Gideon. When there were obvious chances to just +1 and bash for 5, they missed it. I think the +1 is the most overlooked mode and people are not using it enough. Instead people go for the 'value' play of making tokens and lose. There was one super obvious game where there were total control of the board (opp mana screwed) and instead of bashing, he tried to make 2/2(!). Big mistake, he should've crunched in, forced some terrible blocks and won the game. He wound up losing, and Takada (sp) ignored Gideon! He just bashed away and won.
The takeaway; Gideo is OK, but don't go nuts on his 2/2's. I think Sorin is actually better because you +1 and smash and that just wins you games (even though people don't realize why). This is an AGGRO deck. Letting your opp. set up and you going ahead with 2/2's for 4 mana is terrible. 4 Mana Bad Moon, equally terrible! OR, 4 Mana, 5/5 Hasty industructible guy coming over. Think about it.
Gideon doesn't look too hasty to me. Siow noted that +1'ing left Dean open to D-Command the next turn which wouldn't have been great, but I think it was still his best shot at winning that game.
Edit: I acutally like swinging and holding up the A-Charm, just to make the blocks even harder. Does he double block there? Maybe, but we can't really know that I suppose.
yes, I watched that but he didn't mention the transgress the mind and the matchup for that.
You're going to have to be more specific about what matchups you want to know how to sideboard for. And without perfect knowledge, the most that could be offered to you would be assumptions.
I've been looking at these PT lists and struggling to come up with the right configuration of mana sources. The balance between fetches, battlelands, and basics is tricky. Currently, I think running four Shambling Vents is fine; there was one list with Citadel in that slot, but I don't think our colors are that difficult enough to necessitate that and Vents is rather good as a beater.
4 Shambling Vents
In terms of battlelands, I think the minimum is an Sunken Hollow, Smoldering Marsh, and two Canopy Vista. And anymore like Prairie Stream or Cinder Glade are dictated by the fetches that you choose to run.
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
2 Canopy Vistas
Fetches are tricky. With a Stream and a Hollow, Polluted Delta would be able to grab everything but Green and Strand could grab green, black, or white. With a Marsh, Hollow, and Vista, then Foothills can grab white, black, or green and possibly a red splash that I'm not convinced is necessary. Etc on the other fetches. Currently, I'm looking at a less blue emphasis, because I want to be able to fetch green since Shambling Vents is making black and white.
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
The Bloodstained Mire operates as a source of black and a source of green off of a single Cinder Glade, but fails to find White. But it enables me to fetch basic swamp. Unsure if that is right and ultimately depends on if I stick with the fourth Gideon or not.
1 Cinder Glade
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Forest
The PT manabases aren't super clear as to how they are better than this configuration that I currently am hoping to run. I tried doing the math, but it surpassed my abilities to be all too precise about it.
I think your Bloodstained Mire is generally worse than another Wooded Foothills unless you splash, because Mire + Glade + Swamp gives you 4 total color sources for three lands. Foothills gives you three by itself, so you can get up to seven color sources from your last 3 lands (hard to say exactly without the list). For the unsplashed wedges, the battlelands that match the fetches that give you all your colors (Prairie Stream and Cinder Glade for Abzan) are generally not helpful, because they give you only one source that may necessitate more CIPT, IMO.
Craig Wescoe had a very neat little article about GW Megamorph and talked about Archangel of Tithes being such a good card against all aggro, megamorph, and Dark Jeskai. Even Crackling Doom has a tough time with it since most of your creatures are 3 power.
My only gripe is how taxing it is in Abzan. I wish it would work.
While I agree that a 5/5 indestructible creature is great.. it opens him up to Abzan Charm, Crackling Doom and Jeskai Charm. I think that's why a lot of the time he just made tokens.
Also, it really is awesome to see Wingmate Roc back in action. A raided Roc has to have something like a 90% win rate.
This build sacrifices Rhino and Ana for the power of Archangel brings against the big three.
The Sandsteppe Citadels feel really bad to me in this deck. You only have 3 Abzan Charms requiring black in the main, and everything in the board requires only single black. The 4 Flooded Strand and 4 Wooded Foothills (as well as the chance to draw the two black sources) should be able to get you there most of the time, and that way you don't have the source of black coming into play tapped when you desperately need it right away.
This build sacrifices Rhino and Ana for the power of Archangel brings against the big three.
The Sandsteppe Citadels feel really bad to me in this deck. You only have 3 Abzan Charms requiring black in the main, and everything in the board requires only single black. The 4 Flooded Strand and 4 Wooded Foothills (as well as the chance to draw the two black sources) should be able to get you there most of the time, and that way you don't have the source of black coming into play tapped when you desperately need it right away.
The problem is that I needed more black sources but couldn't sacrifice green or white. I still want at least 12 black sources to be able to cast some of those removals in the side on turn 2 or 3.
Despite my love of the Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector package, it was hard on the mana base and not exactly what I wanted to do with the deck. I'll be giving this a run out tomorrow at my local Tuesday night tournament. At this point I'm not so sure that a splash is the best way to go, but it still feels powerful and allows me to easily get all my colors via Flooded Strand. The biggest upgrade I feel was the addition of Anafenza. While there is a strong argument to be made for having her in the main, for now I am going to try her out in the sideboard to keep any megamorph or cutthroat decks in check.
This will probably be one of my last attempts at a splash version given the way tournament results have gone in the overall meta.
Would also love some input on any holes in my game plan!
edit: I just noticed that the title changed to aggro/midrange, so please let me know if this type of build needs to be moved elsewhere.
So I'm still on board the Why-Not-Both camp in terms of playing traditional Abzan Aggro with Raptors. My list from the previous week basically looks like the Pro list only with Raptors and Sorin instead of Gideon and Wingmate. Again, the only reason why I played Sorin over Gideon was the heavy presence of Dark Jeskai starting to pop up in my meta.
Wingmate Roc is really good at breaking open the mirror in terms of taking out Gideon in addition to blocking Mantis Riders. I want to have acess to it in the 75, but don't love it in all matchups, especially given how soft it is to Languish. If you're swapping some number of Gideons for Sorins, which I think a 2/2 split is where I want to be, then moving Roc to the board and adding in some Raptors seems fine if not solid.
Walker would not be exiled. But an animated land would. Anafenza sees what you are the moment you leave.
FWiW, I played the same 75 as Paul at the PT and think the deck is good but not great (he obviously disagrees). More importantly I tested pretty much every idea in this thread, including some not here (like transformational sideboards).
I am confident most of the changes just make the deck worse. Abzan aggro is going to lose a lot of games. And a lot of those games are going to feel out of your control. But instead of trying to constantly tweak here and there, its a lot better to just focus on optimizing your play and your sideboard. You have the 2nd best nut draw in the format, and are far more resilient to any form of hate.
You have two great matchups (red and aristocrats) and bunch of close ones (control, GW, mirrors). The only truly bad one I have found is Finkel Jeskai (Tamada's is much better for you).
These are my conclusions after weeks of testing and a PT:
-Gideon is the best 4 by a long shot. Rhino, Archangel etc.. are all playable but Gideon is the best. It beats a lot of common answers and is unbeatable on the play.
-Wingmate/Gideon on the play are almost unbeatable without Tragic Arrogance. Assuming both players draw equal number of spells.
-Anafenza is currently MUCH MUCH better than any other 3. People are down on stance (because its blank against Jeskai). They are higher on price (because of Atarka Combo). And there are hangbacks (or dragonmasters) everywhere we want to exile.
-Cut and Abzan charm are the best removal in the format. But more important is the ability to reliably cast 2 removal spells on 4/5. So DCommands and Silkwraps serve a very valuable role.
-The control versions are better vs U decks, but significantly worse vs everything else.
-The third delta is a lot better than the 4th heath. Infinite hours of testing to decide this.
you still like running windswept heath? i think having access to four manlands is worth having to deal with an occasional black source. i think Takimura's manabase is beautiful.
im also pretty surprised this primer goes into established and not proven. i get that it didnt have a great day 2% at the PT, but it put two in the top 4 and won the event, comparative to, say, RDW, which had one in the top 8 and one other pilot that went 8-2 in standard...
Dean knew that his opponent was sitting on gas, so I think drawing two might have given him the best shot at winning there. He was in the position where he could no longer race before Takimura could draw out of it, so he was stuck playing for the long game there, which he didn't end up doing.
_______________
Upon watching the vid a 2nd time, it looks as though Dean though his knight would trade with the Warden, which would've been fine, but Warden is unclear from a design perspective when it's repping levels and +1/+1 counters. It's a common mistake so I can totally see that being the case.
Why is this in established instead of proven? Abzan aggro was very well represented with two in the top 8 and three others with 8+ wins in the standard portion
I know that Pantheon genuinely thought that strokes were bad in the matchup. However, these segments are filmed before the matches take place in view of other top 8 competitors and their accompanying players (though no sound). So players are almost incentivized to just make ***** up in order to not give away their actual plan. I can't say whether thats what anyone actually did, but I wouldn't necessarily hold them to what they said on screen.
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I think holding the abzan charm is pretty reasonable in that spot. If his top card is a removal spell, he just wins the game immediately. However if the draw 2 finds only 1 removal spell he is basically in the same spot that he started. If he draws a rhino then holding it would of been slightly bad.
Attacking with the knight is a mistake, since the only spell that makes sense is abzan charm in that spot (all other removal would be cast before blocks). So the double block (which severely punishes the attack) is almost always going to happen.
I think the two options (after holding charm which I like). Is powering up gideon and attacking with everything (which basically loses to a dromoka's command, but can beat a lot of other things and makes abzan charm less obvious). Or attacking with just anafenza and thopter. Making a 2nd knight to double block warden.
">Helping to Invent Thopter/Depths in Old Ext
Creator of the Magic Humor Videos:
The Vintage Metagame The Original
Criteria is here.
I think playing the Charm defensively was the circumstance of where Dean found himself. I, personally, would've taken the line where I draw two and try and get more looks at cards to push something through. The Charm was going to draw him into more lands, which would've been bad but I think it would've given him a better chance (not knowing the top 4 cards) than 1-for-1ing a Rhino knowing that your opponent has rhinos, rocs, or gideons waiting for land drops.
________________________________
Ultimately, I think the value of the charm was reduced by the attack he made with the knight and Anafenza but I'm positive Dean thought Warden was a 3/3 so it's sort of irrelevant.
I do like Siow's line of firing up Gideon and swinging with the team however. It's not one I saw in retrospect and might have forced more awkward blocks.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
But more obviously, he and others misplayed Gideon. When there were obvious chances to just +1 and bash for 5, they missed it. I think the +1 is the most overlooked mode and people are not using it enough. Instead people go for the 'value' play of making tokens and lose. There was one super obvious game where there were total control of the board (opp mana screwed) and instead of bashing, he tried to make 2/2(!). Big mistake, he should've crunched in, forced some terrible blocks and won the game. He wound up losing, and Takada (sp) ignored Gideon! He just bashed away and won.
The takeaway; Gideo is OK, but don't go nuts on his 2/2's. I think Sorin is actually better because you +1 and smash and that just wins you games (even though people don't realize why). This is an AGGRO deck. Letting your opp. set up and you going ahead with 2/2's for 4 mana is terrible. 4 Mana Bad Moon, equally terrible! OR, 4 Mana, 5/5 Hasty industructible guy coming over. Think about it.
Gideon doesn't look too hasty to me. Siow noted that +1'ing left Dean open to D-Command the next turn which wouldn't have been great, but I think it was still his best shot at winning that game.
Edit: I acutally like swinging and holding up the A-Charm, just to make the blocks even harder. Does he double block there? Maybe, but we can't really know that I suppose.
Gideon doesn't have haste. You can't attack with him the turn he enters the battlefield.
I think your Bloodstained Mire is generally worse than another Wooded Foothills unless you splash, because Mire + Glade + Swamp gives you 4 total color sources for three lands. Foothills gives you three by itself, so you can get up to seven color sources from your last 3 lands (hard to say exactly without the list). For the unsplashed wedges, the battlelands that match the fetches that give you all your colors (Prairie Stream and Cinder Glade for Abzan) are generally not helpful, because they give you only one source that may necessitate more CIPT, IMO.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
My only gripe is how taxing it is in Abzan. I wish it would work.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
While I agree that a 5/5 indestructible creature is great.. it opens him up to Abzan Charm, Crackling Doom and Jeskai Charm. I think that's why a lot of the time he just made tokens.
Also, it really is awesome to see Wingmate Roc back in action. A raided Roc has to have something like a 90% win rate.
4 Warden of the First Tree
3 Hangarback Walker
4 Den Protector
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Archangel of Tithes
3 Wingmate Roc
Spells
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Abzan Charm
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Silkwrap
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Canopy Vista
3 Forest
4 Plains
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Valorous Stance
3 Surge of Righteousness
2 Silkwrap
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Ultimate Price
This build sacrifices Rhino and Ana for the power of Archangel brings against the big three.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
The Sandsteppe Citadels feel really bad to me in this deck. You only have 3 Abzan Charms requiring black in the main, and everything in the board requires only single black. The 4 Flooded Strand and 4 Wooded Foothills (as well as the chance to draw the two black sources) should be able to get you there most of the time, and that way you don't have the source of black coming into play tapped when you desperately need it right away.
The problem is that I needed more black sources but couldn't sacrifice green or white. I still want at least 12 black sources to be able to cast some of those removals in the side on turn 2 or 3.
An alternative could be:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Canopy Vista
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Kolios
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
I still don't think it'll work out, but we'll have to wait until Oath probably bringing us the Enemy Tangolands.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
2x Canopy Vista
4x Flooded Strand
4x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
2x Prairie Stream
2x Sunken Hollow
3x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (3)
3x Silkwrap
Creature (19)
4x Den Protector
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4x Siege Rhino
4x Abzan Charm
2x Dig Through Time
2x Murderous Cut
1x Utter End
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Sorcery (3)
2x Languish
1x Ruinous Path
3x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Dispel
1x Languish
1x Ojutai's Command
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Sultai Charm
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Despite my love of the Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector package, it was hard on the mana base and not exactly what I wanted to do with the deck. I'll be giving this a run out tomorrow at my local Tuesday night tournament. At this point I'm not so sure that a splash is the best way to go, but it still feels powerful and allows me to easily get all my colors via Flooded Strand. The biggest upgrade I feel was the addition of Anafenza. While there is a strong argument to be made for having her in the main, for now I am going to try her out in the sideboard to keep any megamorph or cutthroat decks in check.
This will probably be one of my last attempts at a splash version given the way tournament results have gone in the overall meta.
Would also love some input on any holes in my game plan!
edit: I just noticed that the title changed to aggro/midrange, so please let me know if this type of build needs to be moved elsewhere.
Edit: Found some cool lists from SCG States. Hunter Nance rocking Woodland Wanderer over Gideon (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=93391) and a Megamorph list sans Hangarback (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=93537)
FWiW, I played the same 75 as Paul at the PT and think the deck is good but not great (he obviously disagrees). More importantly I tested pretty much every idea in this thread, including some not here (like transformational sideboards).
I am confident most of the changes just make the deck worse. Abzan aggro is going to lose a lot of games. And a lot of those games are going to feel out of your control. But instead of trying to constantly tweak here and there, its a lot better to just focus on optimizing your play and your sideboard. You have the 2nd best nut draw in the format, and are far more resilient to any form of hate.
You have two great matchups (red and aristocrats) and bunch of close ones (control, GW, mirrors). The only truly bad one I have found is Finkel Jeskai (Tamada's is much better for you).
These are my conclusions after weeks of testing and a PT:
-Gideon is the best 4 by a long shot. Rhino, Archangel etc.. are all playable but Gideon is the best. It beats a lot of common answers and is unbeatable on the play.
-Wingmate/Gideon on the play are almost unbeatable without Tragic Arrogance. Assuming both players draw equal number of spells.
-Anafenza is currently MUCH MUCH better than any other 3. People are down on stance (because its blank against Jeskai). They are higher on price (because of Atarka Combo). And there are hangbacks (or dragonmasters) everywhere we want to exile.
-Cut and Abzan charm are the best removal in the format. But more important is the ability to reliably cast 2 removal spells on 4/5. So DCommands and Silkwraps serve a very valuable role.
-The control versions are better vs U decks, but significantly worse vs everything else.
-The third delta is a lot better than the 4th heath. Infinite hours of testing to decide this.
">Helping to Invent Thopter/Depths in Old Ext
Creator of the Magic Humor Videos:
The Vintage Metagame The Original
im also pretty surprised this primer goes into established and not proven. i get that it didnt have a great day 2% at the PT, but it put two in the top 4 and won the event, comparative to, say, RDW, which had one in the top 8 and one other pilot that went 8-2 in standard...