Those decks are so fringe/rogue That I have only ever encountered either of them once in an entire weekend of testing online. It may just be a regional meta situation, and they are more prevalent elsewhere, but it still remains that removal is pretty weak right now.
Your first mistake is equating cockatrice or xmage metagames with reality.
The last week or so of THS/KTK standard, you could hop into some standard testing and play against Abzan Aggro once over 10 rounds. However, you'd play 3-5 durdley-pseudo-board-advantage combo decks over the same amount of rounds. That was not reality in the slightest.
People will play Wild Slash in this format. People will play Radiant Flames (especially week 1 when aggro is the "boogeyman"). People will play Arc Lightning. There are few two drops that don't die to Wild Slash.
Because in the first 2-3 turns, there is almost no interaction/removal to be had.
This is misleading and false. There is conditional removal. And it's probably still good enough. Just because a removal spell isn't Hero's Downfall doesn't mean that it won't be played.
I am coming from Mono Red Burn to this deck and as a similarly positioned deck I would say that you rarely have to worry about interaction in G1. These decks are tuned to kill before your opponent has any ability to interact with you. G2 they sideboard in the cheap early answers that slow you down enough to allow them to stabilize. While there are matchups that occasionally are able to interact early, your plan is still just to out-aggro them in G1. It's a bit of a toss-up. Then in G2 you can board in your early interaction and assume the control or board in anything you have to make your deck even faster and try to straight up race.
How do you guys feel about going with the full 12 fetches though? Is it worth it?
How do you guys feel about going with the full 12 fetches though? Is it worth it?
If you are running ANY kind of Delve, be it Become Immense, or Murderous Cut from the board, 12 is the minimum I would run, I have even seen some people advocating 2-4 Evolving Wilds, just for the extra chance to double up on fetches after a Command/Swell. Personally, I wouldnt run Wilds because it could slow you down, coming in tapped, and keeping you off a T1/T2 play, but I can atleast understand the logic.
I really wish that there was something akin to Vines of Vastwood in green right now, to board in against removal heavy decks, or honestly, main deck if RDW/Narrow removal actual does become commonplace.
The full 12 fetches is worth it given that it maximizes your damage output. Given that every fetch land gives you two landfall triggers (each trigger hopefully a minimum 1 point of damage), you should be getting 2 dmg for taking one point of damage. With good draws, you should be getting more.
This is what I'm currently at for the R/G(b) sideboard.
My gauntlet consists of:
Abzan midrange/aggro shell
Jacekai
URb Eldrazi Control
Abzan Walker Control
Esper Dragons
Br Aggro
RG Landfall
I haven't tested vs. the Eldrazi ramp deck but... I'm assuming that MU is perfectly fine.
You can sorta' figure out what goes where and when. Complete Disregard is pretty necessary for Hangarback Walker. You can get around walker maindeck with Makindi Sliderunner but I don't hold my breath. I'd rather have a clean answer for it post-board.
If youre going to be spending 3 mana on removal, whether its black conditional, or damage based, wouldnt Exquisite Firecraft just be better? Or Arc Lightning Even, since you can clear out multiple creatures and/or hit your opponent for any left over damage.
I like the idea of Disregard, for early game removal, or as Tech vs weenie decks, but I would personally prefer hard removal, or unconditional if im investing 3 mana into it. The only time I can see Touch of the Void/Complete Disregard being better than Firecraft, would be against Hangarback Walker.
I like the idea of Disregard, for early game removal, or as Tech vs weenie decks, but I would personally prefer hard removal, or unconditional if im investing 3 mana into it. The only time I can see Touch of the Void/Complete Disregard being better than Firecraft, would be against Hangarback Walker.
That is probably why it is a sideboard card to answer Hangarback. Exquisite Firecraft makes little sense as a sideboard card.
I've been trying this deck all morning and I've been finding it to be really inconsistent. Quite often I'll have parts of the combo, but not all of it, for example, one 1 drop and a bunch of spells or lands; 2 drops but no 1 drops; 1 drops but all lands are slow or the wrong fetch; spells and lands and no creatures etc. Even with the new rule mulligan rule the deck has been very inconsistent so far. It's too dependent on the combo, which isn't that easy to put together if you don't get the exact cards you need in hand to begin with.
Has anyone tested managorger hydra? It seems real nice if you are going for Battlerage wins and more or less voltron style combat. I think it should be in the 75 as its really good versus RDW. I really like this deck so far and I think that both the equipments aren't needed, as it was said "taking two turns off to play and equip them aren't worth it."
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"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
What I'm missing when I play the deck is evasion and creatures. I'm thinking of splashing white and getting mighty leap in there and adding more creatures with haste. I'm testing out Esper at the moment and having much more success. I think next I may try out the Devoid aggro deck too.
Abzan midrange/aggro shell
Jacekai
URb Eldrazi Control
Abzan Walker Control
Esper Dragons
Br Aggro
RG Landfall
How are you doing against that gauntlet lugger?
My assumption is that the low-to-the-ground, combo-centric list of Mongo may be the way to go with this deck, but I'm still questioning whether that is good enough to be a tier1 deck? While the draws are explosive, Im not sure that a deck where you are so dependant on drawing the right mix of cards in your opening 7 is where I want to be. It could also be possible that I overstate the variance built into this deck, and its actually not that bad…any thoughts?
Also, you might want to add a Grixis Dragons/Control deck to your gauntlet, with Draconic Roar and Radiant Flames as the main reason to go that route.
Jacekai and Br Aggro can be tough since you can rarely go for extra damage. Abzan Aggro can be tough since Hangarback Walker takes time and cards to plow through assuming you haven't landed a Makindi Sliderunner.
Since I'm MDing more board control burn (Wild Slash, Arc Lightning), RG Landfall mirror is really easy.
You can build this deck like a Naya Blitz style deck that has a combo kill and it definitely works but you're going to have hands that just don't come together. A lot of these builds are probably less tuned than the Brave Naya builds from two years ago so variance is just something that's going to creep into your list. It's the nature of the beast. My list drops the explosiveness for a slightly more grindy kill. It's a give/take situation as there are turns where I think, "man, if I had a become immense my opponent would be dead." Then there are turns where I'm in situations where I'm glad that I'm slightly grindier since my cards average out to be more useful in more places rather than just on my turn and just when I'm going for the kill.
I think you guys are seriously under estimating the power level of the Abzan Midrange and Jeskai decks.
Complete disregard? That card is terrible.
No Abbot? Have you played with the card?
Snapping Gnarlid? A card that is infinitely chump blockable and provides no value late game.
Bottom line is that this deck needs a 1 drop as consistently as possible. As you are trying to create the most powerful game 1 deck possible. You also need late game staying power and value, which is wear Abbot comes in.
This is the working list I've put together so far. I went for a very low curve with some options for reach to get around or through blockers. I think it has a lot of potential for a new fast-aggro style deck.
I've played the better part of a week with Snapping Gnarlid. Don't think it makes the cut.
Abbot of Keral Keep is the obvious replacement, although no one really ever had to test it, given that he just naturally oozes value.
With Abbot, you actually want to keep your land count high, since he'll nab your landfall triggers for you late in the game. Some of these lists that just port the landfall guys into the current RDW shell look... anemic. It's not uncommon for the current RDW to miss land drops and you don't really want to miss land drops until turns 4 or 6. If you're not going to hit land drops you might as well drop Scythe Leopard and just play mono-red. Because you want to hit land drops 3-4, you can also afford to play up the curve just a bit (and should, as your mana needs somewhere to go). I tried 2x Zurgo Bellstriker in an attempt to lower my curve but he was garbage. Evasive 3-4 drops is where I'll stay.
Edit: Keep in mind that by swapping Gnarlid with Abbot, you're making yourself super dead in the water to Arc Lightning and Twin Bolt, so that has to inform what you're doing to an extent.
I have seen basically no talk of using Undergrowth Champion in this list. Is there a reason this is being ignored? A 3 drop that turns into a 4/4 after one fetch seems pretty good. Two fetches makes it a 6/6 that is basically impossible to block profitably.
I have seen basically no talk of using Undergrowth Champion in this list. Is there a reason this is being ignored? A 3 drop that turns into a 4/4 after one fetch seems pretty good. Two fetches makes it a 6/6 that is basically impossible to block profitably.
It has also downsides. It's a 3-drop without haste. If you play it on turn 3 it's vulnerable to wild slash and other burn. it's also just going to die to non-burn removal.
The same is true of basically every other creature in all of these lists. Also I think the advantage of the permanent landfall bonus makes it potentially better than the other landfall creatures.
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Your first mistake is equating cockatrice or xmage metagames with reality.
The last week or so of THS/KTK standard, you could hop into some standard testing and play against Abzan Aggro once over 10 rounds. However, you'd play 3-5 durdley-pseudo-board-advantage combo decks over the same amount of rounds. That was not reality in the slightest.
People will play Wild Slash in this format. People will play Radiant Flames (especially week 1 when aggro is the "boogeyman"). People will play Arc Lightning. There are few two drops that don't die to Wild Slash.
This is misleading and false. There is conditional removal. And it's probably still good enough. Just because a removal spell isn't Hero's Downfall doesn't mean that it won't be played.
How do you guys feel about going with the full 12 fetches though? Is it worth it?
If you are running ANY kind of Delve, be it Become Immense, or Murderous Cut from the board, 12 is the minimum I would run, I have even seen some people advocating 2-4 Evolving Wilds, just for the extra chance to double up on fetches after a Command/Swell. Personally, I wouldnt run Wilds because it could slow you down, coming in tapped, and keeping you off a T1/T2 play, but I can atleast understand the logic.
I really wish that there was something akin to Vines of Vastwood in green right now, to board in against removal heavy decks, or honestly, main deck if RDW/Narrow removal actual does become commonplace.
1x Twin Bolt
2x Self-Inflicted Wound
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Complete Disregard
1x Plummet
2x Shaman of the Great Hunt
1x Slab Hammer
2x Retreat to Valakut
This is what I'm currently at for the R/G(b) sideboard.
My gauntlet consists of:
Abzan midrange/aggro shell
Jacekai
URb Eldrazi Control
Abzan Walker Control
Esper Dragons
Br Aggro
RG Landfall
I haven't tested vs. the Eldrazi ramp deck but... I'm assuming that MU is perfectly fine.
You can sorta' figure out what goes where and when. Complete Disregard is pretty necessary for Hangarback Walker. You can get around walker maindeck with Makindi Sliderunner but I don't hold my breath. I'd rather have a clean answer for it post-board.
Youtube Channel
I like the idea of Disregard, for early game removal, or as Tech vs weenie decks, but I would personally prefer hard removal, or unconditional if im investing 3 mana into it. The only time I can see Touch of the Void/Complete Disregard being better than Firecraft, would be against Hangarback Walker.
That is probably why it is a sideboard card to answer Hangarback. Exquisite Firecraft makes little sense as a sideboard card.
Youtube Channel
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Jacekai and Br Aggro can be tough since you can rarely go for extra damage. Abzan Aggro can be tough since Hangarback Walker takes time and cards to plow through assuming you haven't landed a Makindi Sliderunner.
Since I'm MDing more board control burn (Wild Slash, Arc Lightning), RG Landfall mirror is really easy.
You can build this deck like a Naya Blitz style deck that has a combo kill and it definitely works but you're going to have hands that just don't come together. A lot of these builds are probably less tuned than the Brave Naya builds from two years ago so variance is just something that's going to creep into your list. It's the nature of the beast. My list drops the explosiveness for a slightly more grindy kill. It's a give/take situation as there are turns where I think, "man, if I had a become immense my opponent would be dead." Then there are turns where I'm in situations where I'm glad that I'm slightly grindier since my cards average out to be more useful in more places rather than just on my turn and just when I'm going for the kill.
You can hold up Complete Disregard for Dromoka's Command. You can't for Touch of the Void. Sorcery speed cards just aren't very good vs. Dromoka's Command and Hangarback Walker.
Complete disregard? That card is terrible.
No Abbot? Have you played with the card?
Snapping Gnarlid? A card that is infinitely chump blockable and provides no value late game.
Bottom line is that this deck needs a 1 drop as consistently as possible. As you are trying to create the most powerful game 1 deck possible. You also need late game staying power and value, which is wear Abbot comes in.
My list
4 Bloodstained
4 Heath
2 Cinderglade
3 Forest
5 Mountain
1 Smoldering Marsh
4 Scythe Leopoard
4 Swiftspear
3 Zurgo
4 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Abbot
2 Heelcutter
4 Atarka Command
4 Firecraft
2 Become Immense
2 Titans Str
4 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Molten Vortex
2 Fiery Impulse
1 Act of Treason
2 Roast
2 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Scab Clan Berserker
1 Outpost Siege
Curve topper should be reach or have evasion, not another ground creature
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cinder Glade
4x Forest
2x Looming Spires
4x Mountain
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Creature (21)
2x Goblin Heelcutter
3x Lightning Berserker
4x Makindi Sliderunner
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Scythe Leopard
4x Snapping Gnarlid
4x Atarka's Command
1x Become Immense
4x Swell of Growth
4x Wild Slash
Sorcery (2)
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Display of Dominance
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Plummet
3x Roast
2x Shatter
2x Volcanic Upheaval
Swell of Growth has definitely helped me out in the test games I've done. I can't wait to build this.
Podcast
They should be Zurgo
Podcast
4x Scythe Leopard
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Zurgo Bellstriker
4x Snapping Gnarlid
4x Makindi Sliderunner
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
Spells
4x Atarka's Command
4x Wild Slash
4x Swell of Growth
3x Exquisite Firecraft
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cinder Glade
5x Forest
7x Mountain
2x Looming Spires
4x Roast
3x Touch of the Void
2x Outpost Siege
This is the working list I've put together so far. I went for a very low curve with some options for reach to get around or through blockers. I think it has a lot of potential for a new fast-aggro style deck.
4x Scythe Leopard
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
4x Makindi Sliderunner
3x Goblin Heelcutter
4x Akoum Firebird
Instants and Sorceries: (13)
4x Wild Slash
4x Atarka's Command
1x Exquisite Firecraft
1x Become Immense
1x Murderous Cut
2x Arc Lightning
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Windswept Heath
2x Cinder Glade
1x Smoldering Marsh
2x Looming Spires
4x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Swamp
I've played the better part of a week with Snapping Gnarlid. Don't think it makes the cut.
Abbot of Keral Keep is the obvious replacement, although no one really ever had to test it, given that he just naturally oozes value.
With Abbot, you actually want to keep your land count high, since he'll nab your landfall triggers for you late in the game. Some of these lists that just port the landfall guys into the current RDW shell look... anemic. It's not uncommon for the current RDW to miss land drops and you don't really want to miss land drops until turns 4 or 6. If you're not going to hit land drops you might as well drop Scythe Leopard and just play mono-red. Because you want to hit land drops 3-4, you can also afford to play up the curve just a bit (and should, as your mana needs somewhere to go). I tried 2x Zurgo Bellstriker in an attempt to lower my curve but he was garbage. Evasive 3-4 drops is where I'll stay.
Edit: Keep in mind that by swapping Gnarlid with Abbot, you're making yourself super dead in the water to Arc Lightning and Twin Bolt, so that has to inform what you're doing to an extent.
It has also downsides. It's a 3-drop without haste. If you play it on turn 3 it's vulnerable to wild slash and other burn. it's also just going to die to non-burn removal.
Youtube Channel