I've been running a Mardu list for a bit now, did all right last FNM (3-1), and trying to move towards more green & white. What I'm wondering is, how useful is it to keep the red? Or how much red? The splash is basically free, depending on the structure of the manabase. Butcher of the Horde is a great wincon, but Nantuko Husk can be a solid sac outlet as well, and I'm a bit underwhelmed by Dragon Fodder. The problem I'm having is mainly getting both white and green at the same time to cast something like Abzan Ascendancy. Really difficult to cast that on curve right now.
Note - at the moment I only own one Liliana and 2 Hangarbacks, otherwise there would probably be more copies included.
With the cards you have listed, the red splash seems unnecessary. Husk provides the engine you need like a champ and while Butcher of the Horde is a sexy win-con, there are many ways to win with this deck and many sac engines that you can use, without hurting yourself trying to force the mana curve.
My suggestion: Drop the red (Dragon Fodder is garbage in this deck), double up on Secure the Wastes (or go even better with Rally the Ancestors. Drop the Bloodsoaked Champion and move closer towards focusing on sac engine. Champion is good, but he is better in aggro builds, not necessarily synergistic builds.
Another note: Languish is a bad idea in the sideboard. Your removal should be cheap and be able to hit 1-2 meta staple creatures, not kill all of your creatures as well as theirs. While it might work with Zulaport Cutthroat, the idea is you want them to wipe your board for triggers, not the other way around.
I've been reading this thread since like page 2, but I don't think I've posted more than MAYBE once. So I'm back to share a list I've had incredible success with.
I started with the deck in straight Golgari, because it was cheaper, and I didn't want to spend a lot on a deck I'd never played. Through testing I came to the realization I would either need CoCo or Abzan Ascendancy to turn my guys into something actually threatening. This isn't a surprise. SoI went Abzan and the mana made me cry and any game(s) I failed to find Ascendancy, I just lost.
Fast forward a few days and I'm sifting through other brews and come across a R/W deck I built to survive board wipes, and pulled out my Flamewake Phoenixes. I had to find a way to play red, but I was already struggling with three colors. In the end, I scrapped the whole deck and started over from point A with a playset of Flamewakes, Cutthroats, Husks, and [card=Sultai Emissary]Emissaries[/c]. From there it was filling in the curve, and realizing that the haste and evasive nature of flamewake meant Icould take an aggressive approach to the deck, while retaining the grindier concept using cutthroat. Bloodsoaked Champion is probably what makes this deck tick. being able to recur him during combat is great for sacrifice shenanigans, and threatens to make an unblocked Husk lethal very quickly.
Notable ways Flamewake Phoenix is nutso:
- It's recurrable with: Husk (with one sac), Ashcloud, Smothering Abomination, Sarkhan's +1, Hangarback after being pumped.
- It can sac itself to Husk to then be recurred in combat for R, netting a +2/+2 for Husk, and a death trigger.
- It can be sacced to Smothering Abomination on upkeep, and then recurs the same turn for R because Abom has 4 power.
- It's top-notch discard fodder to a flipped Liliana.
- Flying is incredibly relevant right now.
Notable Ways Bloodsoaked Champion is nutso:
- Husk can sac it during combat, then pay 1B for another trigger until it's massive.
- Smothering Abom usually sacs it on upkeep, and can freely recur it for 1B because Abom is evasive.
- More discard fodder for Lili's +2.
- It's a 2-power 1-drop, attacking through Jace and morphs with no threat to card advantage.
I could go on and on with the intricacies and ways to use your mana to maximize card use, but if you guys have questions, ask. I feel like this version has a lot more game against most decks, mainly because it's not reliant on any specific card or combination thereof. It's just an incredibly synergistic beatdown deck that has a powerful engine-based lategame. Like a black/red version of G/W Megamorph.
Is Bone Splinters really preferable over Abzan Charm?
Or are we assuming we are playing Golgari at this point?
Is the fact you can cast Bone Splinters and another creature on that turn the reason for it being better?
Bone Splinters is better in my experience because it costs 1 mana. Yes Abzan Charm and Crackling Doom are "better" in a vacuum. I don't know how you spend your first 3-4 turns, but I spend mine laying down threats and beats. Abzan Charm requires you to leave 3 mana open, which means I don't have mana to curve in to butcher or pump Hangarback. Also getting the GWB consistently is akward sometimes for my manabase.
I tested Abzan Charm in my deck and I didn't like it very much.
So yeah, for me, that fact that you can lay down a beats+use splinters on the same turn is the reason it's better. It's the new Tragic Slip, though too bad it isn't an instant.
I'm liking murderous cut over splinters or charm, though I'm pretty against abzan charm or ascendancy in this deck
Could you elaborate? I have some concern about running out of cards to delve, especially if I am either a) sacrificing scions or b) recurring stuff from my graveyard that I don't want to delve away
I finally built up an abzan list. I only played about 4 matches online (won them all but it was the practice room so there was a lot of jank and missplays as you expect). Here's what I came up with:
Sideboard needs work for sure but that will likely come the more I play. The big question I have is Hangarback Walker. I had it in the original draft, but with rally and coco, it's pretty much a nonbo. If I included it, I would probably just cut CoCo but keep the Rally. Either way the deck has run pretty well for a first pass. Notable wins have been:
vs Atarka Aggro 2-1
Game 1 he just had the business and I couldn't get up and running before I was run over
Game 2 Arashin cleric, cutthroat, and carrier thrall were able to give me enough time to stabilize and get the engine running and at that point he couldn't get any traction.
Game 3 Similar to game 2, only I had fewer creatures out and my opponent was able to amass a pretty good board presence. I was able to rally on defense, which then killed important creatures (cutthroat/thrall/blisterpod) to get value and then rally again for the following block. Too much for him.
vs Esper Dragons 2-0
G1 He stumbles on lands. I am able to fleshbag away his jace. He manages to get out an ojutai, but taps out for it allowing me to rally back a fleshbag, flipping liliana and killing oj.
G2 I get the full engine running: abz ascendancy, evo leap, blisterpod and cutthroats. He tapped out a few times leading up to that allowing me to get my board presence and CoCos. Not difficult, but he should have definitely played less aggressively.
Edit: Anafenza basically is game over. I added 2 Abzan Charms and 2 Infinite Obliteration in the side
I'm liking murderous cut over splinters or charm, though I'm pretty against abzan charm or ascendancy in this deck
Could you elaborate? I have some concern about running out of cards to delve, especially if I am either a) sacrificing scions or b) recurring stuff from my graveyard that I don't want to delve away
If you run enough fetchlands, delving away important creatures shouldn't be a problem for you to pay for Murderous Cut.
Delve spells did not work in rally decks for me. Abzan charm has been good in a field of hangarbacks and Den Protectors. I hate killing Anafenzas only to have it recurred with Den Protector.
Hangarbacks are not good with CoCo, much better with EvoLeap. Gideon or Sorrin are also good in those decks.
I tend to be more focused on my strategy game 1. Removal comes out of the side borad games 2-3. Gathers, while good in the blind, tend to get cut. Also, Fleshbag gets cut if they run hangarbacks.
I run 2 Infinite Obliteration in the side. I bring it in against esper dragons and any time I think they have Anafenzas. Did I mention Anafenzas are bad for this deck? I run 2 of my own in the side.
Delve may not work in rally decks, but it works just fine in aristocrats. Between the fetches and all the value you already got off your creatures, delving away 3 or 4 cards for cheap instant removal it worth it.
Between infinite obliteration and complete disregard in the board, den protector crap should be manageable
Yeah, I think there are enough fetches right now to support running one Murderous Cut without interfering with anything. Against some decks you probably do want something that exiles, though - that's why I run Silkwrap out of the side. I'm really wary of not being able to get the colors right to cast Abzan Charm on time.
Utter end is a fine catch all. Complete Disregard missed Anafenzas, that is a pretty big deal for the deck. I think I ran maybe 8 side board cards when expecting Anafenzas, 2abz charm, 3Surge of Righteousness, 2 Infinite Obliteration, 1 Utter End (maybe on this one). Need to check my notes, but 7 to 8 cards seems right.
Self-inflicted can still miss. I think silkwrap is the best of those 3, specifically if they are running den protector. I still prefer abzan charm or utter end to cleanly deal with the problem, and they have added utility elsewhere.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Surge of Righteousness is still my favorite right now. Without instant speed removal, you can just lose to Atarka red on turn 4. I played against DeMars list this past weekend. I lost game 1. Game 2 and 3 he had make a guy big, once double titan strength and once Become Immense, and Temur Battle Rage. Both times, I had Surge. I really needed the instant speed removal.
I will say that at least in my Esper Rally build, 2 Dig Through Times have been fantastic. The first one usually eats 6 lands and the 2nd eats more lands, maybe an extra Jace or something, but isn't destroying my graveyard.
I don't know about Crackling Doom right now. If somebody's trying to do something cute like ramp to Eldrazi or Dragons it's great, but it's a little lackluster against a field of Walkers and Jaces and Den Protectors. It's going to depend on your meta, obviously, but I've had very little interest in casting Crackling Doom locally.
As mentioned in the comments of the article, if you can find a way to get white mana without tap lands Abzan Ascendancy seems worth the splash. Black himself likes the card but couldn't get it to work while running Sandsteppe Citadel.
Bone Splinters is just such a bad top deck when your behind. I just can't get on any bandwagon using that card. It's been in standard 3 times now and had never been good.
I have a 4c list I'll post in a few days once I have some more testing and settle on a list I enjoy. I can't leave Butcher alone.
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"It's like some kind of Voltron... made of elephants??"
Bone Splinters is just such a bad top deck when your behind. I just can't get on any bandwagon using that card. It's been in standard 3 times now and had never been good.
I have a 4c list I'll post in a few days once I have some more testing and settle on a list I enjoy. I can't leave Butcher alone.
I don't really think it is better necessarily. I think it's getting more results because more people here are focusing on it.
Personally I think mardu with a green splash for catacomb sifter and 2ish evolutionary leap us probably the way to go
With the cards you have listed, the red splash seems unnecessary. Husk provides the engine you need like a champ and while Butcher of the Horde is a sexy win-con, there are many ways to win with this deck and many sac engines that you can use, without hurting yourself trying to force the mana curve.
My suggestion: Drop the red (Dragon Fodder is garbage in this deck), double up on Secure the Wastes (or go even better with Rally the Ancestors. Drop the Bloodsoaked Champion and move closer towards focusing on sac engine. Champion is good, but he is better in aggro builds, not necessarily synergistic builds.
Another note: Languish is a bad idea in the sideboard. Your removal should be cheap and be able to hit 1-2 meta staple creatures, not kill all of your creatures as well as theirs. While it might work with Zulaport Cutthroat, the idea is you want them to wipe your board for triggers, not the other way around.
3 Hangarback Walker
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Sultai Emissary
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Nantuko Husk
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Grim Haruspex
4 Flamewake Phoenix
2 Smothering Abomination
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Other Spells - 5
3 Bone Splinters
2 Collateral Damage
Lands - 23
5 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Blighted Fen
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Bloodfell Caves
3 Duress
2 Rending Volley
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Ultimate Price
2 Minister of Pain
1 Act of Treason
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Outpost Siege
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
I started with the deck in straight Golgari, because it was cheaper, and I didn't want to spend a lot on a deck I'd never played. Through testing I came to the realization I would either need CoCo or Abzan Ascendancy to turn my guys into something actually threatening. This isn't a surprise. SoI went Abzan and the mana made me cry and any game(s) I failed to find Ascendancy, I just lost.
Fast forward a few days and I'm sifting through other brews and come across a R/W deck I built to survive board wipes, and pulled out my Flamewake Phoenixes. I had to find a way to play red, but I was already struggling with three colors. In the end, I scrapped the whole deck and started over from point A with a playset of Flamewakes, Cutthroats, Husks, and [card=Sultai Emissary]Emissaries[/c]. From there it was filling in the curve, and realizing that the haste and evasive nature of flamewake meant Icould take an aggressive approach to the deck, while retaining the grindier concept using cutthroat. Bloodsoaked Champion is probably what makes this deck tick. being able to recur him during combat is great for sacrifice shenanigans, and threatens to make an unblocked Husk lethal very quickly.
Notable ways Flamewake Phoenix is nutso:
- It's recurrable with: Husk (with one sac), Ashcloud, Smothering Abomination, Sarkhan's +1, Hangarback after being pumped.
- It can sac itself to Husk to then be recurred in combat for R, netting a +2/+2 for Husk, and a death trigger.
- It can be sacced to Smothering Abomination on upkeep, and then recurs the same turn for R because Abom has 4 power.
- It's top-notch discard fodder to a flipped Liliana.
- Flying is incredibly relevant right now.
Notable Ways Bloodsoaked Champion is nutso:
- Husk can sac it during combat, then pay 1B for another trigger until it's massive.
- Smothering Abom usually sacs it on upkeep, and can freely recur it for 1B because Abom is evasive.
- More discard fodder for Lili's +2.
- It's a 2-power 1-drop, attacking through Jace and morphs with no threat to card advantage.
I could go on and on with the intricacies and ways to use your mana to maximize card use, but if you guys have questions, ask. I feel like this version has a lot more game against most decks, mainly because it's not reliant on any specific card or combination thereof. It's just an incredibly synergistic beatdown deck that has a powerful engine-based lategame. Like a black/red version of G/W Megamorph.
CMy Peasant CubeC
On Cubetutor
Bone Splinters is better in my experience because it costs 1 mana. Yes Abzan Charm and Crackling Doom are "better" in a vacuum. I don't know how you spend your first 3-4 turns, but I spend mine laying down threats and beats. Abzan Charm requires you to leave 3 mana open, which means I don't have mana to curve in to butcher or pump Hangarback. Also getting the GWB consistently is akward sometimes for my manabase.
I tested Abzan Charm in my deck and I didn't like it very much.
So yeah, for me, that fact that you can lay down a beats+use splinters on the same turn is the reason it's better. It's the new Tragic Slip, though too bad it isn't an instant.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
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Could you elaborate? I have some concern about running out of cards to delve, especially if I am either a) sacrificing scions or b) recurring stuff from my graveyard that I don't want to delve away
3 Carrier Thrall
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Fleshbag Murauder
2 Grim Haruspex
1 Merciless Executioner
3 Nantuko Husk
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
4 Blisterpod
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Catacomb Sifter
Spells 13
4 Rally The Ancestors
3 Evolutionary Leap
3 Collected Company
3 Abzan Ascendancy
2 Canopy Vista
2 Caves of Koilos
3 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Plains
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Scoured Barrens
2 Shambling Vents
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arashin Cleric
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 Duress
1 Gravepurge
2 Minister of Pain
2 Caustic Caterpillar
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Anafenza the Foremost
Sideboard needs work for sure but that will likely come the more I play. The big question I have is Hangarback Walker. I had it in the original draft, but with rally and coco, it's pretty much a nonbo. If I included it, I would probably just cut CoCo but keep the Rally. Either way the deck has run pretty well for a first pass. Notable wins have been:
vs Atarka Aggro 2-1
Game 1 he just had the business and I couldn't get up and running before I was run over
Game 2 Arashin cleric, cutthroat, and carrier thrall were able to give me enough time to stabilize and get the engine running and at that point he couldn't get any traction.
Game 3 Similar to game 2, only I had fewer creatures out and my opponent was able to amass a pretty good board presence. I was able to rally on defense, which then killed important creatures (cutthroat/thrall/blisterpod) to get value and then rally again for the following block. Too much for him.
vs Esper Dragons 2-0
G1 He stumbles on lands. I am able to fleshbag away his jace. He manages to get out an ojutai, but taps out for it allowing me to rally back a fleshbag, flipping liliana and killing oj.
G2 I get the full engine running: abz ascendancy, evo leap, blisterpod and cutthroats. He tapped out a few times leading up to that allowing me to get my board presence and CoCos. Not difficult, but he should have definitely played less aggressively.
Edit: Anafenza basically is game over. I added 2 Abzan Charms and 2 Infinite Obliteration in the side
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
If you run enough fetchlands, delving away important creatures shouldn't be a problem for you to pay for Murderous Cut.
Hangarbacks are not good with CoCo, much better with EvoLeap. Gideon or Sorrin are also good in those decks.
I tend to be more focused on my strategy game 1. Removal comes out of the side borad games 2-3. Gathers, while good in the blind, tend to get cut. Also, Fleshbag gets cut if they run hangarbacks.
I run 2 Infinite Obliteration in the side. I bring it in against esper dragons and any time I think they have Anafenzas. Did I mention Anafenzas are bad for this deck? I run 2 of my own in the side.
Between infinite obliteration and complete disregard in the board, den protector crap should be manageable
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
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Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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4 Hangarback Walker
Creatures
4 Blisterpod
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Catacomb Sifter
2 Nantuko Husk
4 Smothering Abomination
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
Enchantments
4 Evolutionary Leap
3 Murderous Cut
Sorceries
3 Bone Splinters
Basic Lands
5 Forest
3 Swamp
Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cinder Glade
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plummet
3 Ultimate Price
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Duress
2 Ruinous Path
I have a 4c list I'll post in a few days once I have some more testing and settle on a list I enjoy. I can't leave Butcher alone.
Credit goes to Brofoux for the Sig pic.
Current Modern Deck
Black Licorice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11006564#post11006564
Lands are bad topdecks too.
Bone Splinters is clutch in this deck, at least in Sultai Aristocrats. Zulaport Cutthroat + Blisterpod/Carrier Thrall/any fodder can really foil weenie aggro early on.
I'm testing out Sultai colors with a splash of dragon, and so far it's pretty darned fun.
I'm super interested in a Mardu version running Butcher of the Horde.
I've seen some lists with Butcher, but is an Abzan version with Rally and Collected Company THAT much better? I see the two that top 8'd on StarCity.
What do you guys think?
Personally I think mardu with a green splash for catacomb sifter and 2ish evolutionary leap us probably the way to go
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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I've been tinkering with something like this:
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
4x Butcher of the Horde
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Liliana, Heretical Healer
4x Nantuko Husk
2x Smothering Abomination
4x Sultai Emissary
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
Instant (5)
3x Altar's Reap
2x Mardu Charm
2x Crackling Doom
1x Bone Splinters
Land (24)
3x Battlefield Forge
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Caves of Koilos
1x Mountain
4x Nomad Outpost
1x Shambling Vent
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp
2x Act of Treason
1x Bone Splinters
1x Despise
3x Duress
2x Felidar Cub
2x Outpost Siege
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Utter End
In order to splash green, would I simply replace the battlefield forge with Canopy Vista, or would there be more to it?