Just a preliminary sketch of what I think the deck could look like. Has strong aggressive elements to go with a decent midrange and control game. Jace and Kiora look made for each other, and Gideon allows us to ramp up the aggression when needed.
Jace seems like a stretch. There aren't many good sorcery-speed spells to recur here, relative to other Jace-centric decks in Standard currently. I think you could cut him in favor of a better 2-drop once we see the full spoiler.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Totally possible. I do like that Jace let's you be really aggressive early with Dromoka's Command and Stance before getting another shot to close out a couple of key attack phases.
Totally possible. I do like that Jace let's you be really aggressive early with Dromoka's Command and Stance before getting another shot to close out a couple of key attack phases.
That's true, and to be fair, I haven't played much with Jace yet. But I feel like he needs a critical mass of viable -3 targets to be worth running. Your 23 permanent spells won't work, nor will Stoke, so that leaves 11 possible Flashback targets. That's just not very consistent, especially if you're forced to delve any of them away.
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I like the engine and Dromoka's Command in any field expecting a lot of aggro, especially red aggro decks that invariably pop up. Also, Kiora seems pretty strong enough to play.
From the very limited testing I've done with this, Kiora is the real deal; untapping either Hangarback or Ojutai after combat is great, as is the minus ability to find more creatures. As much as I like Jace, I don't think this is the deck for him, and with the new duals having basic types, Knight is a lot better. Not sure if the deck needs a one-drop , and if that should be Warden or Kytheon, but I like Warden so far. Still not sure on Nissa and Mastery, but I think they're powerful enough to warrant slots.
I'm not sure you can support knight of the white orchid in here, because your one drop is green. It is impossible to curve warden into knight, as you would need a forest turn 1 (bfz duals will enter tapped until turn 3 at the earliest). Playing the knight will generally make following up with a raptor impossible as well unless you can get a land with the knight (which only really works on the draw). You can make knight into raptor work by playing a canopy vista turn one, then plains, and then forest. But just cutting the knight (or raptor, but knight seems worse) seems like it will make your deck more consistent, especially when you consider how light on white you actually are.
I also think you might be running too many bfz duals. You can probably get away with 2 of each, which will increase the likelihood of them entering untapped, sense having a full set of them makes it more likely that you get 2 or more in your opener and can't play 2 basics early enough for it to not ruin your tempo.
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I agree about the bfz lands, you don't want a lot more than 2 or 3 (in the alara shard color combos). Also why not surrak? he gives ojutai haste and is a good beater himself. I also don't like knight, and the stratus dancers main seems a bit sketchy, maybe hidden dragonslayer instead? I do like where this is going though, this definitely has real potential.
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"Play to have fun, it's a game."
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
This seems like it could definitely be the deck to beat after rotation. It seems impossible for Control to beat (Hangarback Walker+Deathmist Raptor/Den Protector+Planeswalkers+Lumbering Falls+Dromoka's Command and Valorous Stance seems like a nightmare) and the combination of Ojutai, recursive threats, and 10 planeswalkers is a massive pain for Midrange as well. The combination of Dromoka's Command, a quick clock, and being in white for lifegain also seems like it should make the aggro matchups highly winnable as well. I wish I could afford this, as it seems almost unbeatable.
We have rather similar lists. Hidden Dragonslayer might be better than Rattleclaw, but I like Rattleclaw more as a two drop in a deck of three drops. Gaea's Revenge is probably overkill in the sideboard, but Abzan. Sideboard options for mono red and big dumb Eldrazi.
We have rather similar lists. Hidden Dragonslayer might be better than Rattleclaw, but I like Rattleclaw more as a two drop in a deck of three drops. Gaea's Revenge is probably overkill in the sideboard, but Abzan. Sideboard options for mono red and big dumb Eldrazi.
I'm not really sure about Rattleclaw. This deck just has so many 3-drops between morphs and Raptors that it doesn't seem like there is much use for the mana. However, Hidden Dragonslayer doesn't really make a good 2-drop in most matchups, so I really am not sure what to run as my 2-drop (not that it really matters because this deck is so ridiculously expensive that there is no way that I can afford it). I do have a few of questions about this deck though.
Is Abzan really a problem? While this deck seems like it has a hard time Siege Rhino and Raksasha Deathdealer, the deck seems really good against everything else in Abzan due to the hard-to-kill creatures, recursion, and planeswalkers.
Is there much of a point to running Mastery of the Unseen? I get that it crushes the Control and some Midrange matchups, but Ojutai Bant already seems amazing against those even without Mastery.
Are counterspells really the way to go against the hypothetical Eldrazi decks? Most of them have abilities that trigger on casting them, which seems like it could be problematic.
Rattleclaw Mystic ensures a turn four or five Ojutai, ramps up to a turn 3 Gideon, and enables a turn 3 Kiora to be followed up by a Hangarback with her +1. When not cast on turn 2, Rattleclaw Mystic flipping can recur Deathmists.
From the Abzan side, the matchup always seemed fifty fifty. Gaea's Revenge also seems really good with Elspeth having left the format. The planeswalkers might be enough with Hero's Downfall rotating, but the creatures aren't as hard to kill as you'd think. Having both Ojutai and Mastery is truly where it becomes hard to interact with the deck barring sweepers, because they attack at different angles.
Mastery of the Unseen plus Gideon's emblem just seems like one of the strongest things that you can be doing in the format. I'm open to being wrong. I don't think adding more four mana planeswalkers like the extra Kioras you have listed is where you want to be. Mastery of the Unseen's stock also rises as the eldrazi seem to lack evasion. Perhaps counterspells end up bad against them, but without Annihilator and I don't recall any of them having trample.
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Rattleclaw Mystic ensures a turn four or five Ojutai, ramps up to a turn 3 Gideon, and enables a turn 3 Kiora to be followed up by a Hangarback with her +1. When not cast on turn 2, Rattleclaw Mystic flipping can recur Deathmists.
Rattleclaw can be absurd, but if you are so concerned with Abzan and Red Aggro, isn't a card that is a 2 mana blocker that trades with a RDW creature and gains 2 life or is a kill spell that turns into a relevant threat exactly what you want? Hidden Dragonslayer also works really well against Eldrazi (ironically it works better against them than it does against Dragons).
From the Abzan side, the matchup always seemed fifty fifty. Gaea's Revenge also seems really good with Elspeth having left the format. The planeswalkers might be enough with Hero's Downfall rotating, but the creatures aren't as hard to kill as you'd think. Having both Ojutai and Mastery is truly where it becomes hard to interact with the deck barring sweepers, because they attack at different angles.
I never said the creatures weren't hard to kill, I am just saying that they are hard to kill without losing value. There are only 4 Abzan Charms in the deck, which is not enough to effectively stop playsets of Hangarbacks, Protectors, and Raptors, and that is without even taking into account Ojutai and planeswalkers. The Masteries seem unnecessary when every single one of your threats gets you value before dying or doesn't stay dead and you are playing 10 planeswalkers. Of course, I've never played this deck and never will, so I could be totally wrong.
Mastery of the Unseen plus Gideon's emblem just seems like one of the strongest things that you can be doing in the format. I'm open to being wrong. I don't think adding more four mana planeswalkers like the extra Kioras you have listed is where you want to be. Mastery of the Unseen's stock also rises as the eldrazi seem to lack evasion. Perhaps counterspells end up bad against them, but without Annihilator and I don't recall any of them having trample.
While Mastery+Gideon is sweet, it just seems far too slow in this deck since you'll only be making 1 manifest per turn most of the time, especially since this deck is pretty mana-hungry. Also, Kiora is even better than Gideon in this deck. Untapping Hangarback and Ojutai is amazing. She can consistently hit both a creature and a land with her minus. The deck has graveyard synergies to abuse with her minus. I definitely think that she is stronger in non-Eldrazi , non-Control matchups than Mastery.
That's the thing. The old/current list runs 4 Elvish Mystic, 3 Caryatid, and 1 Rattleclaw Mystic. This enables certain Mastery draws, but also just enabled the deck to be able to cast Ojutai while also holding up disruption. I feel like both of our lists have a rather sad curve. I'm skeptical of running seven four mana planeswalker, three five drops, and stuff with morph like Den Protector that end up being five drops.
Against RDW, Rattleclaw chumps just as much as Dragonslayer. In a deck with access to Hangarback and Dromoka's Command, not to mention actual Dromoka, the lifegain is nice, but not necessary. Maybe I'm underestimating Hidden Dragonslayer. I've never loved the card, but maybe it could be better than I imagine.
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After seeing the full spoilers I honestly believe Ojutai Bant has a change to become a tier 1 deck. It hit hard, protects well, and can play the control game if built right. I hope with the right brew we see it elevated in status.
Seems very poweful, the morph duo is really strong vs. all decks, and we have access to lots of strong threats vs. midrange and control, as well as early game security in things like arashin cleric and hangarback and dromoka's command. Seems very good. We also get the extremely powerful lumbering falls, which can only be killed by creatures or crumble to dust, and that's it. Very very good in my opinion. Thoughts on my list/advice?
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ModernURB Grixis Shadow EDHURG Animar
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2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
Planeswalkers: 4
2 Kiora, Master of Depths
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Stasis Snare
2 Dig Through Time
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Valorous Stance
3 Ojutai's Command
Lands: 24
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Forest
3 Lumbering Falls
3 Canopy Vista
3 Prairie Stream
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
Just a preliminary sketch of what I think the deck could look like. Has strong aggressive elements to go with a decent midrange and control game. Jace and Kiora look made for each other, and Gideon allows us to ramp up the aggression when needed.
That's true, and to be fair, I haven't played much with Jace yet. But I feel like he needs a critical mass of viable -3 targets to be worth running. Your 23 permanent spells won't work, nor will Stoke, so that leaves 11 possible Flashback targets. That's just not very consistent, especially if you're forced to delve any of them away.
I'm not sure you can support knight of the white orchid in here, because your one drop is green. It is impossible to curve warden into knight, as you would need a forest turn 1 (bfz duals will enter tapped until turn 3 at the earliest). Playing the knight will generally make following up with a raptor impossible as well unless you can get a land with the knight (which only really works on the draw). You can make knight into raptor work by playing a canopy vista turn one, then plains, and then forest. But just cutting the knight (or raptor, but knight seems worse) seems like it will make your deck more consistent, especially when you consider how light on white you actually are.
I also think you might be running too many bfz duals. You can probably get away with 2 of each, which will increase the likelihood of them entering untapped, sense having a full set of them makes it more likely that you get 2 or more in your opener and can't play 2 basics early enough for it to not ruin your tempo.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
hangarback walker
kiora, master of the depths
planar outburst / end hostilities
dragonlord ojutai
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
4 Den Protector
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Hangarback Walker
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
3 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Valorous Stance
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Kiora, Master of Depths
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
4 Lumbering Falls
4 Plains
2 Prairie Stream
4 Windswept Heath
This seems like it could definitely be the deck to beat after rotation. It seems impossible for Control to beat (Hangarback Walker+Deathmist Raptor/Den Protector+Planeswalkers+Lumbering Falls+Dromoka's Command and Valorous Stance seems like a nightmare) and the combination of Ojutai, recursive threats, and 10 planeswalkers is a massive pain for Midrange as well. The combination of Dromoka's Command, a quick clock, and being in white for lifegain also seems like it should make the aggro matchups highly winnable as well. I wish I could afford this, as it seems almost unbeatable.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Kiora, Master of the Depths
3 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Stasis Snare
3 Valorous Stance
3 Dromoka's Command
4 Flooded Strand
4 Lumbering Falls
2 Prairie Stream
1 Canopy Vista
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Forest
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Mastery of the Unseen
3 Surge of Righteousness
3 Negate
2 Gaea's Revenge
2 Arashin Cleric
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Stasis Snare
I'm not really sure about Rattleclaw. This deck just has so many 3-drops between morphs and Raptors that it doesn't seem like there is much use for the mana. However, Hidden Dragonslayer doesn't really make a good 2-drop in most matchups, so I really am not sure what to run as my 2-drop (not that it really matters because this deck is so ridiculously expensive that there is no way that I can afford it). I do have a few of questions about this deck though.
Is Abzan really a problem? While this deck seems like it has a hard time Siege Rhino and Raksasha Deathdealer, the deck seems really good against everything else in Abzan due to the hard-to-kill creatures, recursion, and planeswalkers.
Is there much of a point to running Mastery of the Unseen? I get that it crushes the Control and some Midrange matchups, but Ojutai Bant already seems amazing against those even without Mastery.
Are counterspells really the way to go against the hypothetical Eldrazi decks? Most of them have abilities that trigger on casting them, which seems like it could be problematic.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
From the Abzan side, the matchup always seemed fifty fifty. Gaea's Revenge also seems really good with Elspeth having left the format. The planeswalkers might be enough with Hero's Downfall rotating, but the creatures aren't as hard to kill as you'd think. Having both Ojutai and Mastery is truly where it becomes hard to interact with the deck barring sweepers, because they attack at different angles.
Mastery of the Unseen plus Gideon's emblem just seems like one of the strongest things that you can be doing in the format. I'm open to being wrong. I don't think adding more four mana planeswalkers like the extra Kioras you have listed is where you want to be. Mastery of the Unseen's stock also rises as the eldrazi seem to lack evasion. Perhaps counterspells end up bad against them, but without Annihilator and I don't recall any of them having trample.
Rattleclaw can be absurd, but if you are so concerned with Abzan and Red Aggro, isn't a card that is a 2 mana blocker that trades with a RDW creature and gains 2 life or is a kill spell that turns into a relevant threat exactly what you want? Hidden Dragonslayer also works really well against Eldrazi (ironically it works better against them than it does against Dragons).
I never said the creatures weren't hard to kill, I am just saying that they are hard to kill without losing value. There are only 4 Abzan Charms in the deck, which is not enough to effectively stop playsets of Hangarbacks, Protectors, and Raptors, and that is without even taking into account Ojutai and planeswalkers. The Masteries seem unnecessary when every single one of your threats gets you value before dying or doesn't stay dead and you are playing 10 planeswalkers. Of course, I've never played this deck and never will, so I could be totally wrong.
While Mastery+Gideon is sweet, it just seems far too slow in this deck since you'll only be making 1 manifest per turn most of the time, especially since this deck is pretty mana-hungry. Also, Kiora is even better than Gideon in this deck. Untapping Hangarback and Ojutai is amazing. She can consistently hit both a creature and a land with her minus. The deck has graveyard synergies to abuse with her minus. I definitely think that she is stronger in non-Eldrazi , non-Control matchups than Mastery.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Against RDW, Rattleclaw chumps just as much as Dragonslayer. In a deck with access to Hangarback and Dromoka's Command, not to mention actual Dromoka, the lifegain is nice, but not necessary. Maybe I'm underestimating Hidden Dragonslayer. I've never loved the card, but maybe it could be better than I imagine.
2 Whisperer of the Wilds
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Den Protector
4 Undergrowth Champion
4 Woodland Wanderer
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Kiora, Master of the Depths
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Dromoka's Command
1 Stasis Snare
3 Valorous Stance
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Canopy Vista
2 Prairie Stream
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Forest
1 Blighted Cataract
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
3 Arashin Cleric
2 Horribly Awry
2 Silkwrap
1 Valorous Stance
Seems very poweful, the morph duo is really strong vs. all decks, and we have access to lots of strong threats vs. midrange and control, as well as early game security in things like arashin cleric and hangarback and dromoka's command. Seems very good. We also get the extremely powerful lumbering falls, which can only be killed by creatures or crumble to dust, and that's it. Very very good in my opinion. Thoughts on my list/advice?
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar