You have nothing else for that slot. Deathdealer is just bad cause of languish and all the exile effects and abbot in a fatty midrange/control build is terrible.
The meta is gonna be slow because most decks plays will start at 3-4 so I don't see a issue with it. The top deck is a mute point as every target discard spell is bad late.
I think me and you will have to just disagree here.
@knto I believe you are right there is just more value in playing red over white personally but, abzan charm and utter end are reasons to play white to but the lack of early removal is a huge concern for me. Also abzan lack of a early sweeper that doesn't annihilate half the creatures in the deck.
@trappedunderice
Your only gonna get one man land now which makes its mana base now terrible. The reason you even played 8 scry Lands taking you to 12 tapped Lands is scry Lands helped filter your draw and you don't get that now.the scry Lands also helped Smith you into hitting your colors which you will also not have now. Also to that point jund doesn't have scry Lands either but they have 2 sets of fetches that get you to the dual you need. Now if rhino, charm, utter end and all the good cards for abzan were gonna be around in oath I'd play abzan but unfortunately you won't get rhino l, charm, utter end and all that when oath drops will rotate out and you'll be left with fate and dragons and jund card quality will still be good and abzan not so hot. If you wanna play gw I'd look into Naya it looks like a solid deck will come to them to.
Rhinos rotates when the block after Oath comes. You'll get at least a few months of Rhino and two sets of manlands. I'm fine playing 26 lands if four and eventually eight of my lands are beaters.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Oath is the spring set. Khans rotates when oath releases. You won't get khans all through bfz block as far as I was told
There will be 3 "blocks" legal at one time. The first two set block is Khans plus Fate. The second block is Dragons plus Origins. The third block is Battle for Zendikar, which includes Oath as the second set of its two set block. Then Rhino rotates.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
You have nothing else for that slot. Deathdealer is just bad cause of languish and all the exile effects and abbot in a fatty midrange/control build is terrible.
okay so after experimenting with the list I had previously it was doing pretty well but just lacked the umph I needed for midrange. so I decided to go the dragons route as it opens up for better spot removal in foul tongue and draconic roar, can play the haven land to recur threat along with command and den protector, obvs get to play atarka and the resilience of thunderbreak is great, still playing sarkhan as the lack of instant speed removal to deal with him is proving to be great. so her is the list I have come up with for jund dragons
also know I'm gonna get the question of why no kolaghan storm fury or dragonlord
this style is more true to midrange and doesn't really want kolaghan, storm's fury that much. kolaghan can close out a game pretty quick if your ahead but if you fall behind it feels real bad to hard cast her and have her make blocks and stuff so deck isn't quite built for her.
as for the dragonlord I don't know maybe a 1 could be ok. haven't attempted to test her yet but I feel like she will just most cases be a 6/5 stick with flying and give other dudes haste. so not sure if she is really worth the 6 mana and the higher curve.
Playing less than 8 fetchlands can't be right. I would cut those Llanowar Wastes in a heartbeat.
How's Ultimate Price been? I have not liked the card in my testings and have opted to play other removal. 3 Foul-Tongues also feels like maybe 1 too many - I think it's given most people will choose to play Hangarback Walker in the first week at least.
I think playing 3 Atarkas requires more sources of mana. 1 Read the Bones, 2 Nissas and 24 lands feels too little. Have you considered playing the new draw spell? I'm not sure it's better than Read the Bones, but it would make it easier to hit the critical mass of cards needed to cast all your expensive stuff. Regardless, I'm sure you need to play ~26 lands at least. When I played with Dragonlord Kolaghan (a 6-drop), even with 7 mana dorks and 4 Coursers, I felt that 24 lands was too few.
So through abit more testing I dropped an atarka and went up a land. Dropped a foul tongue for murderous cut. Dropped two wastes and added two more fetches. Has worked out pretty smooth. Overall the deck feels really strong and gave toppled most assumed archetypes. Feel like this will be a tier 1 deck.
The Dragons variant is incredibly strong. It absolutely destroys esper dragons in my experience and seems very well balanced with great early and late game. Here is the list i modified from the one earlier in the thread.
This is the route Im going with Jund right now. Includes the morph recursion of Protector/Raptor and dig spells like Pack to speed out Tasigur and fuel Cut. Still shakey on Whether Rattleclaw is actually worth it, he is there mostly to fuel a 4 mana converge of Wanderer or be an extra morph trigger to recur Raptor. Painful Truths is pure gas, I much prefer it over RtB, mainly because all i want are more cards, I dont need to dig for an answer that often.
My only doubt, is whether to make cuts to fit more radiant flames, or a Languish or two into the mainboard. Im not too scared of any creature based deck other than hyper fast Red decks, but I just dont know what else to cut, except maybe the Rattleclaws. Which may be the path to take, because ive been using the Land drop from Atarka's to "ramp" into a Wanderer on turn 3 quite often.
Alrighty, i think i might have come up with a very strong jund list. So far, in testing, ive only lost to grixis eldrazi aggro due to some unfortunate draws.
I've been recently been testing out new Jund decks in preparation for the Las Vegas Invitational, and the new Pptq season that's just about to start. My very first inclination was to play Dragons just to run Draconic Roarsince there aren't other substitutes in the new standard. After looking at this thread I've seen a lot of unfocused decks, and to have a consistent Jund deck you need a versatility in your creatures, removal, and lands. This will prevent you from drawing the wrong half of your deck in certain match ups. Also I would run the full sets of both Kolaghan's Command, and Den Protector so you can have as many options as possible. I am currently at school, but when I get home I will post my current list to give guys an idea of a Jund deck with a proactive, consistent game plan. Here is my current Jund build.
I've been recently been testing out new Jund decks in preparation for the Las Vegas Invitational, and the new Pptq season that's just about to start. My very first inclination was to play Dragons just to run Draconic Roarsince there aren't other substitutes in the new standard. After looking at this thread I've seen a lot of unfocused decks, and to have a consistent Jund deck you need a versatility in your creatures, removal, and lands. This will prevent you from drawing the wrong half of your deck in certain match ups. Also I would run the full sets of both Kolaghan's Command, and Den Protector so you can have as many options as possible. I am currently at school, but when I get home I will post my current list to give guys an idea of a Jund deck with a proactive, consistent game plan. Here is my current Jund build.
I definitely think the Dragon shell is the best way to build Jund, and Rattleclaw Mystic is an auto-include. However even this version seems too fixated on being durdly and keeping the hand stocked, instead of focusing on getting ahead on board position. I think Ob Nixilis is a fantastic card but in a Draconic Roar -deck Sarkhan takes the cake. Your best bet is to leverage the free chip damage. K-command and Den Protector are both great cards, but they have extremely diminishing returns. Both of those cards only become good when some interaction between the players has already take place - you don't never ever want to draw a hand with >=3 Den Protectors / K-commands and some late drops.
I would also look to increase the dragon count to turn on the clauses on those spells. Sarkhan helps a little, but a one-of Dragonlord Kolaghan would also be fine.
I have a Jund Delve Deck, I'll post it later, but I want to see if you guys can help me in seeing what can replace what with the coming rotation.
It did pretty well at my last PPTQ, but due to fatigue, most of my games went to time, even when all 3 ties I was in I was in an overwhelming position to win.
Also, what 3 toughness creatures that are not really seeing play can go in jund decks? I say this cause with no lightning strike, the only way to efficiently get rid of a 3 toughness creature at instant speed is Spell Mastery Fiery impulse and Draconic Roar, which I don't think will see as much diverse play like lightning strike due to their 'conditions'.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
Here is what Iv come up with so far for my Jund deck. It goes the dragon route with a decent amount of maindeck removal. Considering how resilient most of the threats are and how easy they are to recur, I feel ok maindecking a few sweepers. Also I know there are no Rattleclaw Mystics, but manadorks have never really been my play style.
I know Blisterpod might seem a bit strange, but its got great CA, Im ok with it dying to removal or eating an attack, or even wrathing it myself, plus it can always help ramp.
Let me know your thoughts. Any advice or comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
I seen this today as well but I feel pia and kiran are just meh and sure its kinda cutesy to play it then kolaghan but overall i just feel like pia and kiran just....do nothing.....like literally nothing in the deck. also that mana base he posted looks atrocious. i feel there is literally no reason to be playing 12 fetches and seems like a very stream lined deck list that star city told him to fit cards in to try and help sell like fetches pia kiran and kolaghan. all which even now as rotation nears no body seems to think are gonna be any good. i for one have never been nor will be a fan of either kolaghan's. both are agro styled cards and are just paid if you have to vanilla play them and can't attack. pia and kiran could be ok but the 3 mana to sac a thopter seems just clunky and i'd almost rather play brood butcher of chandra'sd parents and even butcher is just to slow.
i think i'd rather stick with a midrange control shell involving the much better and still most likely to see play dragonlord atarka supplemented with quality spells and planeswalkers.
I have actually considered Sarkhan a lot, but went with Ob because his -3 can kill anything to Sarkhan's which kills only certain creatures. However Sarkhan can kill a Gideon before he can +1 for value which is nice, and being able to trigger Draconic Roar and Foul-Tongue is nice. Also I feel this deck will always be a little slower game one, but has a lot of play when it comes to sideboarding. Also Kolaghan's Command is going to be a premium removal spell in the wake of all the weenie decks. If you can just keep looping Commands and Den Protectors how can you lose?
Eventually command will be a dead card cause every deck with have something the 2 damage doesn't kill.
Sarkhan should be in greater numbers as through testing I've found he us just plain hard to answer. Abzan really is the only deck with answers to him instant speed answers is more what I'm referring to here.
Command is never a dead draw game one which I really like. This card is just an engine with Den Protector. Also this card just kills Jace, Hangarback, Nissa and Soulfire cards I foresee to be huge players in the new standard.
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The meta is gonna be slow because most decks plays will start at 3-4 so I don't see a issue with it. The top deck is a mute point as every target discard spell is bad late.
I think me and you will have to just disagree here.
@knto I believe you are right there is just more value in playing red over white personally but, abzan charm and utter end are reasons to play white to but the lack of early removal is a huge concern for me. Also abzan lack of a early sweeper that doesn't annihilate half the creatures in the deck.
@trappedunderice
Your only gonna get one man land now which makes its mana base now terrible. The reason you even played 8 scry Lands taking you to 12 tapped Lands is scry Lands helped filter your draw and you don't get that now.the scry Lands also helped Smith you into hitting your colors which you will also not have now. Also to that point jund doesn't have scry Lands either but they have 2 sets of fetches that get you to the dual you need. Now if rhino, charm, utter end and all the good cards for abzan were gonna be around in oath I'd play abzan but unfortunately you won't get rhino l, charm, utter end and all that when oath drops will rotate out and you'll be left with fate and dragons and jund card quality will still be good and abzan not so hot. If you wanna play gw I'd look into Naya it looks like a solid deck will come to them to.
Hangarback Walker fills that slot just fine...
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3 Den Protector
3 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Thunderbreak Reagent
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Foul-tongue Invocation
4 Draconic Roar
2 Ultimate Price
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Ruinous Path
1 Crux of Fate
1 Read the Bones
2 Transgres the Mind
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Cinder Glade
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mountain
1 swamp
3 Forest
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
2 Feed the Clan
3 Radiant Flames
3 Duress
1 Crux of Fate
1 Ruinous Path
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Ultimate Price
also know I'm gonna get the question of why no kolaghan storm fury or dragonlord
this style is more true to midrange and doesn't really want kolaghan, storm's fury that much. kolaghan can close out a game pretty quick if your ahead but if you fall behind it feels real bad to hard cast her and have her make blocks and stuff so deck isn't quite built for her.
as for the dragonlord I don't know maybe a 1 could be ok. haven't attempted to test her yet but I feel like she will just most cases be a 6/5 stick with flying and give other dudes haste. so not sure if she is really worth the 6 mana and the higher curve.
How's Ultimate Price been? I have not liked the card in my testings and have opted to play other removal. 3 Foul-Tongues also feels like maybe 1 too many - I think it's given most people will choose to play Hangarback Walker in the first week at least.
I think playing 3 Atarkas requires more sources of mana. 1 Read the Bones, 2 Nissas and 24 lands feels too little. Have you considered playing the new draw spell? I'm not sure it's better than Read the Bones, but it would make it easier to hit the critical mass of cards needed to cast all your expensive stuff. Regardless, I'm sure you need to play ~26 lands at least. When I played with Dragonlord Kolaghan (a 6-drop), even with 7 mana dorks and 4 Coursers, I felt that 24 lands was too few.
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I've debated painful truths and just the issue is rtb can dig as deep if not at least one deeper than truths does and only costs 2 life.
Could be right about foul tongue MI t sub for a cut if I go up on fetches.
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cinder Glade
3 Forest
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Crux of Fate
4 Draconic Roar
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Murderous Cut
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Painful Truths
3 Ruinous Path
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Den Protector
2 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Woodland Wanderer
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Dragonlord Atarka
//Spells
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Radiant Flames
2 Ruinous Path
3 Atarka's Command
2 Murderous Cut
3 Gather the Pack
3 Painful Truths
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Cinder Glade
3 Smoldering Marsh
//Plansewalkers
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
This is the route Im going with Jund right now. Includes the morph recursion of Protector/Raptor and dig spells like Pack to speed out Tasigur and fuel Cut. Still shakey on Whether Rattleclaw is actually worth it, he is there mostly to fuel a 4 mana converge of Wanderer or be an extra morph trigger to recur Raptor. Painful Truths is pure gas, I much prefer it over RtB, mainly because all i want are more cards, I dont need to dig for an answer that often.
My only doubt, is whether to make cuts to fit more radiant flames, or a Languish or two into the mainboard. Im not too scared of any creature based deck other than hyper fast Red decks, but I just dont know what else to cut, except maybe the Rattleclaws. Which may be the path to take, because ive been using the Land drop from Atarka's to "ramp" into a Wanderer on turn 3 quite often.
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Canopy Vista
2x Cinder Glade
3x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
3x Mountain
1x Smoldering Marsh
3x Swamp
1x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Creatures (25)
3x Deathmist Raptor
3x Den Protector
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
4x Scythe Leopard
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Thunderbreak Regent
3x Woodland Wanderer
2x Read the Bones
Instant (8)
4x Atarka's Command
2x Complete Disregard
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Crumble to Dust
2x Duress
2x Feed the Clan
2x Murderous Cut
2x Radiant Flames
1x Read the Bones
2x Roast
2x Ruinous Path
thoughts?
Having no hard removal against big creatures seems bad as well.
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4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Canopy Vista
2x Cinder Glade
2x Forest
1x plains
2x Llanowar Wastes
3x Mountain
1x Smoldering Marsh
2x Swamp
1x Blighted Fen
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Beastcaller Savant
3x Dust Stalker
4x Forerunner of Slaughter
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3x Thunderbreak Regent
3x Woodland Wanderer
Sorcery (2)
2x Duress
Instant (10)
4x Abzan Charm
3x Atarka's Command
1x Complete Disregard
2x Murderous Cut
2x Complete Disregard
2x Crumble to Dust
3x Radiant Flames
1x Read the Bones
2x Roast
3x Ruinous Path
2x Transgress the Mind
4x Den Protector
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Thunderbreak Regent
3x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalkers:
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Instants/Sorceries:
4x Draconic Roar
4x Kolaghan's Command
3x Ruinous Path
2x Roast
2x Foul-Tongue Invocation
1x Murderous Cut
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
2x Cinder Glade
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
2x Ainok Survivalist
4x Duress
1x Foul-Tongue Invocation
2x Painful Truths
3x Radiant Flames
2x Rending Volley
1x Virulent Plague
I definitely think the Dragon shell is the best way to build Jund, and Rattleclaw Mystic is an auto-include. However even this version seems too fixated on being durdly and keeping the hand stocked, instead of focusing on getting ahead on board position. I think Ob Nixilis is a fantastic card but in a Draconic Roar -deck Sarkhan takes the cake. Your best bet is to leverage the free chip damage. K-command and Den Protector are both great cards, but they have extremely diminishing returns. Both of those cards only become good when some interaction between the players has already take place - you don't never ever want to draw a hand with >=3 Den Protectors / K-commands and some late drops.
I would also look to increase the dragon count to turn on the clauses on those spells. Sarkhan helps a little, but a one-of Dragonlord Kolaghan would also be fine.
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It did pretty well at my last PPTQ, but due to fatigue, most of my games went to time, even when all 3 ties I was in I was in an overwhelming position to win.
Also, what 3 toughness creatures that are not really seeing play can go in jund decks? I say this cause with no lightning strike, the only way to efficiently get rid of a 3 toughness creature at instant speed is Spell Mastery Fiery impulse and Draconic Roar, which I don't think will see as much diverse play like lightning strike due to their 'conditions'.
3 Blisterpod
2 Den Protector
3 Deathmist Raptor
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Dragonlord Atarka
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Murderous Cut
2 Radiant Flames
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Ruinous Path
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Draconic Roar
Lands (25)
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Cinder Glade
2 Mortuary Mire
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
I know Blisterpod might seem a bit strange, but its got great CA, Im ok with it dying to removal or eating an attack, or even wrathing it myself, plus it can always help ramp.
Let me know your thoughts. Any advice or comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
3 Den Protector
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Blighted Fen
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cinder Glade
4 Polluted Delta
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Murderous Cut
2 Wild Slash
2 Despise
3 Ruinous Path
i think i'd rather stick with a midrange control shell involving the much better and still most likely to see play dragonlord atarka supplemented with quality spells and planeswalkers.
Sarkhan should be in greater numbers as through testing I've found he us just plain hard to answer. Abzan really is the only deck with answers to him instant speed answers is more what I'm referring to here.