So with the addition of Sphinx's Tutelage and the new Jace, I think there is a pretty good U/B control deck to be had here. Also, with there now being 2 Sweepers in black, I think it's a little safer to go creature-less. This is what I came up with, though I haven't tested it yet. Thoughts and ideas always welcome!
If you are running Tight on mana. try Clash of Wills instead of dissolve.
I have tested Dark deal it is fine in theory but will get you killed in the end. you have to Dark deal with a loaded hand but that means throwing away a loaded hand for a potential "no removal hand"
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
Personally I would remove 1x Reality Shift for a 24th land at the very minimum. You are playing control so you want to be making sure that you are hitting your land drops. Reality shift is also your weakest removal as well. This deck needs earlier solutions too. While you are setting up your mill option, aggro specifically RDW is going to ruin your day by turn 4/5. You may want to think about something like Send to Sleep or something like that in your SB for that deck. Otherwise the list looks solid.
Day's undoing is counter productive if the wincon is mill. it shuffles back in the library and the triggers from tutelage go on the stack in the cleanup step resolved and they take another clean up step. and after Origins Releases the rules update so when Day's undoing ends the turn and the triggers happen they cease to exits. Rule 713.1A.
Trust me I WISH day's undoing would work that way.. but alas. nope.
Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I like the idea of Hydrolash, and I agree with Dark Deal after thinking about it. Here's an updated list. Mind Sculpt I think will be powerful, because you can buy them back with Jace.
Have you considered Fascination in place of Mind Sculpt? Sculpt looks good in a "mill" deck, but it's not generating any advantage for you in the process. Buying it back with Jace is also slow, and I think you'll find that you'll be pulling removal with him more often than not. Let your Sphinx's Tutelage do the heavy lifting for you.
I've been playing with a UG Tutelage idea, and Fascination is just amazing in that. Being able to force yourself to draw 7 means milling minimum 14 cards, and they're drawing 7 at the same time. Alhammarret's Archive might be worth looking at as well here, if you're looking to close things out a bit faster.
Basically I took the turbo fog concept and geared it towards mill. So far it seems to be working really well but of course it is just testing and lots of room for tweaking. The crypt was in originally for Day's Undoing until I found out you get no mill triggers from it so took the wanna be Time Twister out but left the crypt in for Deathmist and dredge decks.
Any input is greatly appreciated as I am usually a green player and this is my first dip into the bruise pool.
I like the idea of Hydrolash, and I agree with Dark Deal after thinking about it. Here's an updated list. Mind Sculpt I think will be powerful, because you can buy them back with Jace.
I am curious... why Risen Executioner ? He is super clunky and outside of his reoccurring nature, he does not really help you. I get that you probably want a beater in the SB for control mirrors but I think there are better options perhaps. Disciple Of The Ring might be a better fit? Can lock dowm problem creatures while you look for removal, survive Languish with a bit of help and provide a beater all in one.
Day's undoing is counter productive if the wincon is mill. it shuffles back in the library and the triggers from tutelage go on the stack in the cleanup step resolved and they take another clean up step. and after Origins Releases the rules update so when Day's undoing ends the turn and the triggers happen they cease to exits. Rule 713.1A.
Trust me I WISH day's undoing would work that way.. but alas. nope.
Nope, how it works, is Undoing shuffles, then draws. Tutelage puts mill triggers on the stack, then Undoing resolves, removing those triggers from the stack, and ends the turn...it sucks I know....
How does this deck beat your random Green deck?
Sure, Languish kills most creatures, but Rhinos, atarka/domroka, Gaea's revenge, Polukranos etc laughs at the card. In fact, Gaea's revenge just straight up destroys this deck by itself.
If Tutleage is going to be your main win con I would cut Reality Shift, Mind Sculpt, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and wall of frost. I would also think of moving Hydrolash to the sideboard as it is good vs aggressive decks, but doesn't do much to the green decks (which are running rampant).
I really like the concept of this deck of being mill-first as opposed to the U/G/w Turbo Fog that was introduced at the last PTQ. It would be even better if Hedron Crab gets reprinted in BFZ
I'm in the process of making my b/u control into tutelage. I'm running mostly creature hate main and side is for control. I absolutely love this deck! When it hit and combos it's amazing. Firecraft is my only weakness right as it can't be counter cause of the milling. The crypt is awesome but after tutelage triggers it usually has spell mastery. I don't know how many time I've had them down to a couple cards and they draw into Firecraft burn and win. I've found that's the only draw back to this deck
I found this list to be a lot more competitive then my previous versions, especially against Mono Red.
All the extra Scry’s and draws really help out. If I land Despise or Duress early game I can disrupt their hands a little bit. At FNM I even had a moment where I Duress’d an Outpost Siege and noticed a Thunderbreak Regent in my opponents hand , so next turn I Infinite Obliteration all of them and exiled all 4 from his library and hand.
As long as I manage to get tutelage and lands and play it on the third turn, I can usually mill out my opponents answers. The bomb combo for the deck I found was about mid game.
Popping down Fascination and getting Sphinx’s Tutelage activations for each card I draw. Whilst leaving enough mana open to then play Dark Deal.
That combo ended 3 games for me.
Anyway, it all depends on the cards I can draw and if I draw them before my opponent kills me lol
I found this list to be a lot more competitive then my previous versions, especially against Mono Red.
All the extra Scry’s and draws really help out. If I land Despise or Duress early game I can disrupt their hands a little bit. At FNM I even had a moment where I Duress’d an Outpost Siege and noticed a Thunderbreak Regent in my opponents hand , so next turn I Infinite Obliteration all of them and exiled all 4 from his library and hand.
As long as I manage to get tutelage and lands and play it on the third turn, I can usually mill out my opponents answers. The bomb combo for the deck I found was about mid game.
Popping down Fascination and getting Sphinx’s Tutelage activations for each card I draw. Whilst leaving enough mana open to then play Dark Deal.
That combo ended 3 games for me.
Anyway, it all depends on the cards I can draw and if I draw them before my opponent kills me lol
why do you splash white with tranquils instead of radiant fountain?
I've been running a Grixis list with tutelage as the wincon. The red looting spells like magmatic insight and tormenting voice can net you a ton of triggers in one turn and rapidly fuel treasure cruise. Haven't quite perfected it yet but Grixis colors feel reallllly strong for this game plan.
Mine looks rather similair to yours. I also really like ugin in the deck. You can just pitch him with voice if you draw him too early. Erebos titan is a little heavy on black though. I've been running angler over him.
As some one getting back into magic, these decks seems really good on paper, and I have most of the cards to build it.
My only question is how much enchantment hate/mill hate is floating around standard right now, or is even available? Is it easy or difficult to tech mill decks these days?
I mean - rotation is soon anyway so isn't that what the topic is?
People will still run enchant hate anyway. that's why I run 6 counterspells sideboard. You can afford to slow down a bit with your milling when your opponent is focused on removing the single win con from your deck. G2 and G3 it's almost always stupid to play tutelage turn 3 or 4 (maybe not with dispell anyway). You know they will play DCommand - and then den protector to get it back up. That is 95% of the time a game plan in any green deck. Blue decks you play counter war and hole the second tute in hand.
The only thing we need to really worry about is duress.
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4 Sphinx's Tutelage
Instants
4 Anticipate
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Dissolve
3 Reality Shift
Sorcery
2 Dark Deal
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Divination
4 Languish
2 Crux of Fate
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Planeswalker
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
6 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ultimate Price
2 Crux of Fate
4 Risen Executioner
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Read the Bones
So with the addition of Sphinx's Tutelage and the new Jace, I think there is a pretty good U/B control deck to be had here. Also, with there now being 2 Sweepers in black, I think it's a little safer to go creature-less. This is what I came up with, though I haven't tested it yet. Thoughts and ideas always welcome!
I have tested Dark deal it is fine in theory but will get you killed in the end. you have to Dark deal with a loaded hand but that means throwing away a loaded hand for a potential "no removal hand"
Day's undoing is counter productive if the wincon is mill. it shuffles back in the library and the triggers from tutelage go on the stack in the cleanup step resolved and they take another clean up step. and after Origins Releases the rules update so when Day's undoing ends the turn and the triggers happen they cease to exits. Rule 713.1A.
Trust me I WISH day's undoing would work that way.. but alas. nope.
Early Aggression can be fought with "Send to Sleep" "Hydrolash" "Drown in Sorrow" I personally am a BIG fan of Hydrolash since it draws as well.
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
Instants
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Reality Shift
3 Hydrolash
Sorcery
4 Read the Bones
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Languish
4 Mind Sculpt
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Wall of Frost
Planeswalker
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Polluted Delta
5 Island
6 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ultimate Price
2 Crux of Fate
4 Risen Executioner
2 Infinite Obliteration
3 Thoughtseize
I like the idea of Hydrolash, and I agree with Dark Deal after thinking about it. Here's an updated list. Mind Sculpt I think will be powerful, because you can buy them back with Jace.
I've been playing with a UG Tutelage idea, and Fascination is just amazing in that. Being able to force yourself to draw 7 means milling minimum 14 cards, and they're drawing 7 at the same time. Alhammarret's Archive might be worth looking at as well here, if you're looking to close things out a bit faster.
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
4 Dictate of Kruphix
3 Monetary Seige
Atifacts
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Tormonds Crypt
1 Profane Momento
Other Spells
3 Dark Deal
3 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Languish
2 Murderous Cut
4 Negate
3 Ultimate Price
1 Learn from the Past
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Polluted Delta
3 Temple of Deceit
4 Radiant Fountain
6 Swamps
7 Islands
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Languish
1 Orb of Warding
2 Dissapate
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Crux of Fate
2 Profane Momento
2 Virulent Plague
Basically I took the turbo fog concept and geared it towards mill. So far it seems to be working really well but of course it is just testing and lots of room for tweaking. The crypt was in originally for Day's Undoing until I found out you get no mill triggers from it so took the wanna be Time Twister out but left the crypt in for Deathmist and dredge decks.
Any input is greatly appreciated as I am usually a green player and this is my first dip into the bruise pool.
Have been considering Esper though for the removal suite.
I am curious... why Risen Executioner ? He is super clunky and outside of his reoccurring nature, he does not really help you. I get that you probably want a beater in the SB for control mirrors but I think there are better options perhaps. Disciple Of The Ring might be a better fit? Can lock dowm problem creatures while you look for removal, survive Languish with a bit of help and provide a beater all in one.
Hold on, you mean Day's Undoing won't mill with Tutelage in play?
Sure, Languish kills most creatures, but Rhinos, atarka/domroka, Gaea's revenge, Polukranos etc laughs at the card. In fact, Gaea's revenge just straight up destroys this deck by itself.
If Tutleage is going to be your main win con I would cut Reality Shift, Mind Sculpt, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and wall of frost. I would also think of moving Hydrolash to the sideboard as it is good vs aggressive decks, but doesn't do much to the green decks (which are running rampant).
Instead I would slot in a couple of crux of fate, some card draw / looting and some counterspells. I would try Monastery Siege or Thopter Spy Network .
Perhaps we should also look at Dakra Mystic .
Main deck
3 Tasigur, the golden fang
2 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
2 Dark Deal
2 Read the Bones
3 Thoughtseize
4 Treasure cruise
4 Languish
2 Clash of Wills
2 Dissipate
3 Hero's downfall
1 Murderous Cut
1 Ultimate Price
4 Sphinx's tutelage
1 Ashiok, nightmare weaver
1 Dismal Backwater
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Radiant fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
6 island
7 swamp
3 drown in sorrow
3 bile blight
2 self-inflicted wound
1 ultimate price
1 murderous cut
2 disdainful stroke
3 duress
9 Island
3 Swamps
4 Dismal Backwater
3 Tranquil Cove
3 Mage-Ring Network
4 Evolving Wilds
Instants
4 Dissolve
4 Icy Blast
2 Calculated Dismissal
2 Clash Of Wills
4 Crippling Chill
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
2 Jace's Sanctum
Sorceries
2 Talent of the Telepath
2 Fascination
2 Read the Bones
2 Dark Deal
1 Despise
1 Duress
Creatures
1 Willbreaker
2 Hangarback Walker
Artifacts
1 Orbs of Warding
2 Prism Ring
2 Willbreaker
2 Clone Legion
2 Mage-Ring Responder
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Sign in Blood
1 Duress
1 Despise
2 Monastery Siege
I found this list to be a lot more competitive then my previous versions, especially against Mono Red.
All the extra Scry’s and draws really help out. If I land Despise or Duress early game I can disrupt their hands a little bit. At FNM I even had a moment where I Duress’d an Outpost Siege and noticed a Thunderbreak Regent in my opponents hand , so next turn I Infinite Obliteration all of them and exiled all 4 from his library and hand.
As long as I manage to get tutelage and lands and play it on the third turn, I can usually mill out my opponents answers.
The bomb combo for the deck I found was about mid game.
Popping down Fascination and getting Sphinx’s Tutelage activations for each card I draw. Whilst leaving enough mana open to then play Dark Deal.
That combo ended 3 games for me.
Anyway, it all depends on the cards I can draw and if I draw them before my opponent kills me lol
why do you splash white with tranquils instead of radiant fountain?
edit: also your SB is only 14 cards
So it is lol I'll get on to that
I've changed the list again now that I've gotten some prodigies lol
My only question is how much enchantment hate/mill hate is floating around standard right now, or is even available? Is it easy or difficult to tech mill decks these days?
copy paste right from cockatrice
1 Send to Sleep
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Dig Through Time
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Island
3 Mountain
2 Swiftwater Cliffs
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
2 Shivan Reef
3 Dark Deal
2 Radiant Flames
2 Languish
2 Grave Birthing
1 Roilmage's Trick
2 Dismal Backwater
1 Blighted Cataract
3 Smoldering Marsh
2 Sunken Hollow
1 Skyline Cascade
1 Swamp
2 Anticipate
1 Disperse
1 Encase in Ice
4 Negate
1 Seismic Rupture
2 Fiery Impulse
2 Dispell
2 Radiant Flames
1 Crux of Fate
1 Aligned Hedron Network
People will still run enchant hate anyway. that's why I run 6 counterspells sideboard. You can afford to slow down a bit with your milling when your opponent is focused on removing the single win con from your deck. G2 and G3 it's almost always stupid to play tutelage turn 3 or 4 (maybe not with dispell anyway). You know they will play DCommand - and then den protector to get it back up. That is 95% of the time a game plan in any green deck. Blue decks you play counter war and hole the second tute in hand.
The only thing we need to really worry about is duress.