I do think that if there is a resulting viable deck, it can't possibly be as explosive as the old one - so maybe by default it needs to be a bit more grindy and long term value driven?
All the competitive multicolor decks are insanely powerful in the mid to late game. U devotion will never reach that level of power. It's simply how wizards balance multicolor and monocolor. The only hope is to take advantage of all the taplands, fetches, scry lands, and pain lands. Basically you need to get in fast and hard and create enough pressure that they never reach mid-late game.
Also Bident does work in a deck filled with evasive creatures
Against control we have an amazing match up. We just have so many cheap threats that we out aggro them. In one game I had a morphed Lurker and Hypnotic Siren swinging for 5 turns until he finally board cleared, in which I dropped more dudes. A good play is to either Cloudform and hope for a Dancer or play one morphed on turn three. Save your Master of Waves until turn 5 so you have 5 mana open. Drop your Master and if they counter or kill spell it, counter it with your dancer.
Side note: Singing Bellstrike is VERY powerful and echoes Tidebinder mage without the devotion or 2 power.
Against control we have an amazing match up. We just have so many cheap threats that we out aggro them. In one game I had a morphed Lurker and Hypnotic Siren swinging for 5 turns until he finally board cleared, in which I dropped more dudes. A good play is to either Cloudform and hope for a Dancer or play one morphed on turn three. Save your Master of Waves until turn 5 so you have 5 mana open. Drop your Master and if they counter or kill spell it, counter it with your dancer.
Side note: Singing Bellstrike is VERY powerful and echoes Tidebinder mage without the devotion or 2 power.
I don't understand a few things about what you are saying.
Can you explain how casting Master of Waves on turn 5 leaves enough mana open to flip Stratus Dancer? I think you mean turn 6, but I may be missing something.
Also, in your control scenario, didn't you just do 7 damage in 5 turns before they wiped? That's not exactly amazing against control. Every aggro deck in the format puts out damage faster than that. I've been primarily playing U/B control for the past two months and I would love for someone to swing with 2 1/1s at me for 5 turns. I agree that blue aggro can have a strong match up against control, especially after sideboarding, but I think the strength is bringing in counterspells, extra draw etc.
Against control we have an amazing match up. We just have so many cheap threats that we out aggro them. In one game I had a morphed Lurker and Hypnotic Siren swinging for 5 turns until he finally board cleared, in which I dropped more dudes. A good play is to either Cloudform and hope for a Dancer or play one morphed on turn three. Save your Master of Waves until turn 5 so you have 5 mana open. Drop your Master and if they counter or kill spell it, counter it with your dancer.
Side note: Singing Bellstrike is VERY powerful and echoes Tidebinder mage without the devotion or 2 power.
I don't understand a few things about what you are saying.
Can you explain how casting Master of Waves on turn 5 leaves enough mana open to flip Stratus Dancer? I think you mean turn 6, but I may be missing something.
Also, in your control scenario, didn't you just do 7 damage in 5 turns before they wiped? That's not exactly amazing against control. Every aggro deck in the format puts out damage faster than that. I've been primarily playing U/B control for the past two months and I would love for someone to swing with 2 1/1s at me for 5 turns. I agree that blue aggro can have a strong match up against control, especially after sideboarding, but I think the strength is bringing in counterspells, extra draw etc.
Oh sorry yeah I meant on turn 6. But what I meant is that all you have to devote is 2 creatures and keep swinging in. They refuse to spend a baord clear to just kill 2 creatures. But when they do and tap out is when you drop two more until you can get a Stratus dancer or a coutnerspell up.
I have found That the deck is fine vs Abzan. You just side out thassa and rely on your flyers. The only card you really have to watch out for from the deck is as you mentioned drown in sorrow. I haven't tested it too much vs abzan not that it has shore crasher but I assume it's not to different. Having a threat that takes multiple removal to deal with seems strong vs them though. You are absolutrely right about G/x. It's a horrid matchup and while getting more reliable ways to activate thassa will help it is a real struggle. I think Profaner of the Dead will help by sending their mana dorks back to hand and allow you to capitaliz on greedy mana bases but it really is a though match.
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Profaner looks strong. It works against your devotion count though. I don't think that is a direction you want to take in the end.
I'll just break it down like this.
You cannot beat red decks as their removal can keep you off devotion. Their removal is cheap so you will not gain any tempo from your opponent casting their removal. Rabblemaster runs all over you. You have no permanent removal so even if you disable him with encase in ice or singing bell strike the goblin tokens themselves can be enough. Most of your creatures in the deck are 1 toughness so they will not be blocking. You have no way to beat a never ending stream of goblin tokens let alone an attacking rabblemaster. Even 1 hordling outburst is enough to win the games I tested.
G/x decks is the same problem. Again no permanent removal. Polukranos eats everything on your board for little activation cost. The creatures in general can outrace you in damage.
Abzan game 1 can fire off a few cheap removal. Outrace you with Seige Rhino. After board end hostilities and drown in sorrow come in. Swings favor for your opponent by a wide margin.
Finding a deck in the format that doesn't have some of these elements is about impossible to find. No matter how you look at it UD has a bad match up vs everything. The other issue UD has is it's low damage output for an aggro deck.
I think the key to making this deck function properly is somehow combing the artifact package with the morph package while also keeping your staple mythic cards. Here are the packages that I want to combine. The artifact package and the morph package interact well with one another and I want to find the best mix between the two to get the quickest and most efficient deck possible. Any help would be greatly appreciate.
This is a deck that was on channelfireball.com
Says it's already won 2 events and I feel there can be many more. Anyway, on to the list. With some suggested changes post-dtk. It entwines the Artifact and Devotion theme with a sub-theme of Ferocious. I feel like the addition of Red. Even though it may dilute the devotion a touch I believe it may be worth it.
So, I dropped 2 Cloudform for 2 Shorecrasher. 1 Hammer for 1 Thassa. 4 Frost Walker for 4 Stratus Dancer. I think the list would benefit from another Thassa. Since i'm running 4 Dancer I feel we can drop the 2 denials in the board for another Thassa and a 2nd Sphinx.
I've been playing a slower paced deck than what it seems most people are playing with, with no or few one drops. All the Scrying allows you to run fewer lands than you might need otherwise as you can usually filter your deck at least after turn 3. I am running 4 Silumgar Sorcerer and 4 Thassa's Rebuff. These cards help you take control of the game by allowing you to cast Silumgar Sorcerer on their end step or using it/Thassa's Rebuff to counter a creature against more aggessive decks. Another great play with Sorcerer is casting it after the opponent attacks when you have 3-4 devotion and Thassa out. You immediately get a 5/5 indestructible to block with. It's really nice to have a counter in the maindeck. If you have even just a Shorecrasher out this card is just as good as Mana Leak. Early game it is great even if you've only got an Omenspeaker or Frostwalker out because they often won't have enough to pay the additional 1.
I play-tested a bit with Hypnotic Siren/Triton Shorestalker/Gudul Lurker but they really seem to lack having any effect on my games. Against Aggro they are too slow/weak and against control they don't really do enough to force an answer. I've also seen a lot of deck lists running Nykthos, but after a bunch of playtesting I never really found it too useful. If you have enough devotion to make use of it you should already be winning. I'd rather have 4 U on turn 4 for Shorecrasher and mana to protect it.
I've been running Omenspeaker as they are great on defense and can allow you to keep a hand with only 2 lands, or help you find the right cards. Omenspeaker is kind of a safer Anticipate, and it adds devotion. It is a decent sac for Silumgar Sorcerer (or possible Profaner of the Dead in the sideboard) as well. Encrust has actually been doing well for me as well, stopping beefy creatures after an attack, or you can even halt a Perilous Vault, as well as bringing up your devotion for Thassa's Rebuff/Master of Waves/Thassa, God of the Sea.
Lately I have been trying out Sidisi's Faithful in the 1 drop slot and they're doing pretty well, except they are almost completely dead vs control. I like having a 1 drop that can add to my devotion, but it also has utility on defense/bouncing a troublesome creature to be countered later. This is the one card I would like to remove, but I feel if I don't run it I lose to aggressive decks. It isn't too bad later on because usually you can Scry it to the bottom of your deck with Sphinx/Thassa/Omenspeaker.
Prognostic Sphinx has also worked quite well as a fall back way to win the game. They are there basically as a hard to remove win condition if the game has stalled.
Shorecrasher Elemental works insanely well against control, and running Thassa's Rebuff in the main deck means you have ways around them even using 2 removal spells or a board wipe to get rid of it. This guy is also able to survive an Ugin drop quite well since it can become colorless for (U). Keep in mind in most cases this card should be considered a 4 drop so you can protect it from burn with -1/+1 or removal with U. Don't forget this guy gets +1/+1 from Master of Waves too making him a beast.
Frost Walker doesn't only work really well as an aggressive two drop, he can be used to trade with many 3 or even 4 drops.
Encrust has actually really suprised me at how well it works. This allows you to play out your cards more aggressively against aggro because you can Encrust their guys after they attack, rather than having to counter them with Silumgar Sorcerer or Thassa's Rebuff. The extra boost to your devotion really helps in a lot of cases too. I've even had luck with it against Perilous Vault.
For the sideboard I've been trying out a few different things. Aetherspouts works really well against aggressive decks although it is kind of easy to spot. Profaner of the Dead works well with Omenspeaker/Sidisi's Faithful and even Shorecrasher to remove tokens and severely slows down aggro decks with smaller creatures. Against control I have 5 or so counters added in to prevent them from removing your strong threats like Sphinx and Shorecrasher or reducing your devotion. Cloudform could be used to replace Encrust against control.
All the competitive multicolor decks are insanely powerful in the mid to late game. U devotion will never reach that level of power. It's simply how wizards balance multicolor and monocolor. The only hope is to take advantage of all the taplands, fetches, scry lands, and pain lands. Basically you need to get in fast and hard and create enough pressure that they never reach mid-late game.
Also Bident does work in a deck filled with evasive creatures
Against control we have an amazing match up. We just have so many cheap threats that we out aggro them. In one game I had a morphed Lurker and Hypnotic Siren swinging for 5 turns until he finally board cleared, in which I dropped more dudes. A good play is to either Cloudform and hope for a Dancer or play one morphed on turn three. Save your Master of Waves until turn 5 so you have 5 mana open. Drop your Master and if they counter or kill spell it, counter it with your dancer.
Side note: Singing Bellstrike is VERY powerful and echoes Tidebinder mage without the devotion or 2 power.
I don't understand a few things about what you are saying.
Can you explain how casting Master of Waves on turn 5 leaves enough mana open to flip Stratus Dancer? I think you mean turn 6, but I may be missing something.
Also, in your control scenario, didn't you just do 7 damage in 5 turns before they wiped? That's not exactly amazing against control. Every aggro deck in the format puts out damage faster than that. I've been primarily playing U/B control for the past two months and I would love for someone to swing with 2 1/1s at me for 5 turns. I agree that blue aggro can have a strong match up against control, especially after sideboarding, but I think the strength is bringing in counterspells, extra draw etc.
A good play will cast a board wipe to deal with 2 creatures. It doesn't take much to bury you in CA after a few 2 for 1.
G/R monsters just stomps all over this deck. It has the same issues with G/W. Polukranos eats everything.
You cannot outrace a Seige Rhino. Easy for abzan to keep you off devotion.
I want UD to come back. Giving us 1 card isn't going to make that happen. We have many holes in the deck to fill.
I'll just break it down like this.
You cannot beat red decks as their removal can keep you off devotion. Their removal is cheap so you will not gain any tempo from your opponent casting their removal. Rabblemaster runs all over you. You have no permanent removal so even if you disable him with encase in ice or singing bell strike the goblin tokens themselves can be enough. Most of your creatures in the deck are 1 toughness so they will not be blocking. You have no way to beat a never ending stream of goblin tokens let alone an attacking rabblemaster. Even 1 hordling outburst is enough to win the games I tested.
G/x decks is the same problem. Again no permanent removal. Polukranos eats everything on your board for little activation cost. The creatures in general can outrace you in damage.
Abzan game 1 can fire off a few cheap removal. Outrace you with Seige Rhino. After board end hostilities and drown in sorrow come in. Swings favor for your opponent by a wide margin.
Finding a deck in the format that doesn't have some of these elements is about impossible to find. No matter how you look at it UD has a bad match up vs everything. The other issue UD has is it's low damage output for an aggro deck.
Artifact Package
Ornithopter
Darksteel Citadel
Ghostfire Blade
Ensoul Artifact
Morph Package
Gudul Lurker
Stratus Dancer
Shorecrasher Elemental
Cloudform
Creatures
Ornithopter 4
Gudul Lurker 4
Stratus Dancer 4
Frost Walker 4
Shorecrasher Elemental 4
Thassa, God of the Sea 3
Master of Waves 4
Icefall Regent 1
Spells
Ghostfire Blade 4
Ensoul Artifact 4
Cloudform 2
Lands
Darksteel Citadel 4
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx 1
Island 17
Says it's already won 2 events and I feel there can be many more. Anyway, on to the list. With some suggested changes post-dtk. It entwines the Artifact and Devotion theme with a sub-theme of Ferocious. I feel like the addition of Red. Even though it may dilute the devotion a touch I believe it may be worth it.
4 Darksteel Citadel
5 Island
2 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
3 Swiftwater Cliffs
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Illusory Angel
4 Master of Waves
2 Shorecrasher Elemental
4 Ornithopter
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
4 Ensoul Artifact
2 Ghostfire Blade
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Shrapnel Blast
2 Springleaf Drum
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Wild Slash
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Arc Lightning
2 Barrage of Boulders
1 Dig Through Time
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Lightning Strike
1 Outpost Siege
1 Prognostic Sphinx
So, I dropped 2 Cloudform for 2 Shorecrasher. 1 Hammer for 1 Thassa. 4 Frost Walker for 4 Stratus Dancer. I think the list would benefit from another Thassa. Since i'm running 4 Dancer I feel we can drop the 2 denials in the board for another Thassa and a 2nd Sphinx.
23 Island
1cc
4 Sidisi's Faithful
2cc
4 Omenspeaker
4 Frost Walker
4 Thassa's Rebuff
4 Shorecrasher Elemental
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Silumgar Sorcerer
3 Encrust
4 Master of Waves
5cc
2 Prognostic Sphinx
I've been playing a slower paced deck than what it seems most people are playing with, with no or few one drops. All the Scrying allows you to run fewer lands than you might need otherwise as you can usually filter your deck at least after turn 3. I am running 4 Silumgar Sorcerer and 4 Thassa's Rebuff. These cards help you take control of the game by allowing you to cast Silumgar Sorcerer on their end step or using it/Thassa's Rebuff to counter a creature against more aggessive decks. Another great play with Sorcerer is casting it after the opponent attacks when you have 3-4 devotion and Thassa out. You immediately get a 5/5 indestructible to block with. It's really nice to have a counter in the maindeck. If you have even just a Shorecrasher out this card is just as good as Mana Leak. Early game it is great even if you've only got an Omenspeaker or Frostwalker out because they often won't have enough to pay the additional 1.
I play-tested a bit with Hypnotic Siren/Triton Shorestalker/Gudul Lurker but they really seem to lack having any effect on my games. Against Aggro they are too slow/weak and against control they don't really do enough to force an answer. I've also seen a lot of deck lists running Nykthos, but after a bunch of playtesting I never really found it too useful. If you have enough devotion to make use of it you should already be winning. I'd rather have 4 U on turn 4 for Shorecrasher and mana to protect it.
I've been running Omenspeaker as they are great on defense and can allow you to keep a hand with only 2 lands, or help you find the right cards. Omenspeaker is kind of a safer Anticipate, and it adds devotion. It is a decent sac for Silumgar Sorcerer (or possible Profaner of the Dead in the sideboard) as well. Encrust has actually been doing well for me as well, stopping beefy creatures after an attack, or you can even halt a Perilous Vault, as well as bringing up your devotion for Thassa's Rebuff/Master of Waves/Thassa, God of the Sea.
Lately I have been trying out Sidisi's Faithful in the 1 drop slot and they're doing pretty well, except they are almost completely dead vs control. I like having a 1 drop that can add to my devotion, but it also has utility on defense/bouncing a troublesome creature to be countered later. This is the one card I would like to remove, but I feel if I don't run it I lose to aggressive decks. It isn't too bad later on because usually you can Scry it to the bottom of your deck with Sphinx/Thassa/Omenspeaker.
Prognostic Sphinx has also worked quite well as a fall back way to win the game. They are there basically as a hard to remove win condition if the game has stalled.
Shorecrasher Elemental works insanely well against control, and running Thassa's Rebuff in the main deck means you have ways around them even using 2 removal spells or a board wipe to get rid of it. This guy is also able to survive an Ugin drop quite well since it can become colorless for (U). Keep in mind in most cases this card should be considered a 4 drop so you can protect it from burn with -1/+1 or removal with U. Don't forget this guy gets +1/+1 from Master of Waves too making him a beast.
Frost Walker doesn't only work really well as an aggressive two drop, he can be used to trade with many 3 or even 4 drops.
Encrust has actually really suprised me at how well it works. This allows you to play out your cards more aggressively against aggro because you can Encrust their guys after they attack, rather than having to counter them with Silumgar Sorcerer or Thassa's Rebuff. The extra boost to your devotion really helps in a lot of cases too. I've even had luck with it against Perilous Vault.
For the sideboard I've been trying out a few different things. Aetherspouts works really well against aggressive decks although it is kind of easy to spot. Profaner of the Dead works well with Omenspeaker/Sidisi's Faithful and even Shorecrasher to remove tokens and severely slows down aggro decks with smaller creatures. Against control I have 5 or so counters added in to prevent them from removing your strong threats like Sphinx and Shorecrasher or reducing your devotion. Cloudform could be used to replace Encrust against control.