ive never really been sold on military intelligence, is it really worth it?
I'm still working on this. I really just don't want to be running 8 4-drops in an aggro deck that also has multiple mana sinks if possible. However, right now it is working, though Bident might work better.
How about considering Hypnotic Siren over Shorestalker? If flying creatures don't turn up enormously in the format, I feel like the unconditional unblockable is worth trading off for the ability to snag an opponent's creature to clear the path during the late game.
Also, would it be worth trying to squeeze in a 1 or maybe 2-of of Hall of Triumph?
I think the deck should be fine with running Bidents (or maybe a split between bident and intelligence), since MUD didn't have an issue with running MoW, Bident, AND Jace previously. Looks like it'll be a fun deck, though! I certainly hope that it's at least a fringe playable thing, come the new standard.
EDIT: And of course, as a devotion deck, you might as well run Nykthos. It'll be particularly helpful with the mana sinks that otherwise would take a lot more investment.
How about considering Hypnotic Siren over Shorestalker? If flying creatures don't turn up enormously in the format, I feel like the unconditional unblockable is worth trading off for the ability to snag an opponent's creature to clear the path during the late game.
Maybe, but I don't want to have my offense stopped by a Mantis Rider.
Also, would it be worth trying to squeeze in a 1 or maybe 2-of of Hall of Triumph?
I'll try to fit it in.
I think the deck should be fine with running Bidents (or maybe a split between bident and intelligence), since MUD didn't have an issue with running MoW, Bident, AND Jace previously. Looks like it'll be a fun deck, though! I certainly hope that it's at least a fringe playable thing, come the new standard.
I'll run a split. Bident is sometimes more useful, but Intelligence can be cast to draw cards if you are mana screwed.
EDIT: And of course, as a devotion deck, you might as well run Nykthos. It'll be particularly helpful with the mana sinks that otherwise would take a lot more investment.
I would, but I want to be able to case Shorecrasher Elemental and leave up a blue mana to protect him from removal in the same turn. I don't want to take risks with Nykthos stopping me from doing that.
I would, but I want to be able to case Shorecrasher Elemental and leave up a blue mana to protect him from removal in the same turn. I don't want to take risks with Nykthos stopping me from doing that.
hm... I feel like you really miss out on some of the late game explosiveness that the deck could achieve by not including any copies. I do understand your concerns about shorecrasher, though. On the other hand, MUD never really had a huge problem with Nightveil getting wiped when it was casting that last standard, did it? I mean, it's not like removal of a 3 toughness creature (or even 4 toughness, if you're dropping on turn 4 and keeping a mana open) ha gotten much better since then, although stoke is run a ton more in the current standard...
maybe consider trying to run just a 2 or 3 of? It feels like a waste to not take advantage of all that devotion you'll be running around with.
Also, I guess I don't really keep up with standard super closely, but what decks are actually running Mantis Rider at this point? Jeskai Ascendency decks seem to have shifted towards tokens and the Rabblemaster/Outburst package. If it's just a single card that isn't even run in a bunch of the popular decks that your worried about, is it really worth losing the late game utility? Then again, I suppose that's mostly down to a local meta call.
I would, but I want to be able to case Shorecrasher Elemental and leave up a blue mana to protect him from removal in the same turn. I don't want to take risks with Nykthos stopping me from doing that.
hm... I feel like you really miss out on some of the late game explosiveness that the deck could achieve by not including any copies. I do understand your concerns about shorecrasher, though. On the other hand, MUD never really had a huge problem with Nightveil getting wiped when it was casting that last standard, did it? I mean, it's not like removal of a 3 toughness creature (or even 4 toughness, if you're dropping on turn 4 and keeping a mana open) ha gotten much better since then, although stoke is run a ton more in the current standard...
maybe consider trying to run just a 2 or 3 of? It feels like a waste to not take advantage of all that devotion you'll be running around with.
Fair enough.
Also, I guess I don't really keep up with standard super closely, but what decks are actually running Mantis Rider at this point? Jeskai Ascendency decks seem to have shifted towards tokens and the Rabblemaster/Outburst package. If it's just a single card that isn't even run in a bunch of the popular decks that your worried about, is it really worth losing the late game utility? Then again, I suppose that's mostly down to a local meta call.
ah, guess I never noticed. I don't have the money to actually play anywhere (no new cards, no money to even pay for FNM tournies T.T) so I mostly keep up with standard by watching SCG Opens when I get a chance and checking out the deck lists that interested me afterwards, so my knowledge of the meta is, admittedly, a bit patchy at the moment Still, point still stands - is a 4 of in a single deck really worth completely dropping a potential game changer late game? I mean, maybe just run a 2/2 or 3/1 split between Shorestalker and Siren, but I definitely feel like the mind control on siren can often be a game changer, especially against decks that like clogging the board like abzan.
I dunno, maybe singing bell strike will be enough to serve that purpose, I'm not really sure.
I've been playing blue devotion for most of this season and I'm pretty psyched for this card. It is an auto 4x. As far as other cards people have mentioned. Military intelligence is good but it is hard to keep online with all of the removal running around and with black getting ultimate price I would rather just play bident of thassa. If you are really set on using military intelegence then you will need triton tactics in the board to protect from early wipes. Even with this card it will be hard to reliably activate thassa but it does help alot. Master of waves is really the alstar of the deck so this card is great for it but doen't expect the deck to be tier 1. Even though you could argue this is better than nightveil specter there is no tidebinder mage, rapid hybridization, and no mutavault. Siren is better than shorestalker period. It blocks storm breath, it nearly unblockable and is absurd against most decks late game. Singing bell strike is great removal and an amazing devotion enabler but when games drag out it becomes increasingly less useful. Also remember you can always use nythos for 3 if you need the blue mana. I also haven't seen anyone mention Frost Walker. This is one of the best cards in the deck. It trades well with abzan mono green and other midrage decks as well as putting enormous pressure on control. Also since it has only one toughness the sacrifice ability is usually an upside in many matchups because it ensures it does to the grave for delve and makes it psuedo dodge bile blight witch otherwise wrecks the deck.
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I've been playing blue devotion for most of this season and I'm pretty psyched for this card. It is an auto 4x. As far as other cards people have mentioned. Military intelligence is good but it is hard to keep online with all of the removal running around and with black getting ultimate price I would rather just play bident of thassa. If you are really set on using military intelegence then you will need triton tactics in the board to protect from early wipes. Even with this card it will be hard to reliably activate thassa but it does help alot. Master of waves is really the alstar of the deck so this card is great for it but doen't expect the deck to be tier 1. Even though you could argue this is better than nightveil specter there is no tidebinder mage, rapid hybridization, and no mutavault. Siren is better than shorestalker period. It blocks storm breath, it nearly unblockable and is absurd against most decks late game. Singing bell strike is great removal and an amazing devotion enabler but when games drag out it becomes increasingly less useful. Also remember you can always use nythos for 3 if you need the blue mana. I also haven't seen anyone mention Frost Walker. This is one of the best cards in the deck. It trades well with abzan mono green and other midrage decks as well as putting enormous pressure on control. Also since it has only one toughness the sacrifice ability is usually an upside in many matchups because it ensures it does to the grave for delve and makes it psuedo dodge bile blight witch otherwise wrecks the deck.
Thanks for the suggestions, though I think this could actually be tier 1. Losing Tidebinder Mage and Frostburn Weird hurts, but Singing Bell Strike might be better than Rapid Hybridization because it gives devotion and losing Mutavault shouldn't matter as much since every deck lost Mutavault. What would your list be?
This card is a trap. I say that as a MBlue devo player that has a huge stock pile of Master of Waves ready to be sold.
The exile effect is basically useless inside devotion. He comes back face down = 0 devotion. Every 4 drop in the format is bigger than him even with a MoW pumping him. He cannot even attack through a courser w/o MoW on the board.
Blue devo has other problems. RtR-Theros MU worked because its 1 drops could scale into bigger threats as the game went on. Mutavault and tidebinder mage were the real cornerstones of the deck.
Right now Hypnotic Siren is the only consideration for the 1 mana slot and it just isn't powerful enough as a 1/1. There is no UU for the 2 CMC slot that is playable. Mindreaver is literally the ONLY UU creature in standard.
There are some major holes to fill for this deck to become viable again. 1/3 of the set spoiled so far. There is more to come but I'm not hopeful.
Here's my analysis of the card based on the U devotion deck i'm running right now broken down by each part of the card
UUU casting cost: Probably the biggest push for devotion in Khans block. Getting 3 devotion is quite strong in turning on Thassa or getting more out of master of waves. Unfortunately, the fact that it is 3 cmc means it fights for a spot amongst cloudform and Thassa.
Elemental subtype: Synergizes well with master of waves. Elemental U devotion is definitely strong when paired with the likes of Vaporkin, frostwalker and obelisk of Urd.
1st ability: The innate protection. On one hand, it dodges mass removal. On the other hand, it is a massive (and I mean massive) tempo lost. Not only does it come back face down (no devotion), but it requires quite a bit of mana investment to get it flipped. I honestly prefer cloudform's hexproof over this because realistically, the only mass sweeper you're going to run into playing this deck is crux of fate, Ugin, and drown in sorrow. Not worth sacrificing the deck's main strategy of aggro tempo just to dodge these cards.
2nd ability: Gives some reach in offense and some reach in defense, never both at the same time. Requires mana investment and the lack of any form of built in combat evasion means the defensive option is probably going to be used more.
Megamorph: highly irrelevant, you never want to play him as a face down card. The +1/+1 counter does not even remotely justify it.
3/3 body: On curve body but nothing special, can run over caryatids and trade with early game abzan but that's not what you want to be doing if the plan is to build devotion.
*****end analysis*******
TL;DR: No evasion and abilities that don't synergize with the strategy of U devotion means its probably going to lose out to cloudform. I rather take the one less U in exchange for evasion and less mana intensive protection investment.
In my build I currently run 3 thassa 4 cloudform and 4 crystalline nautilus. While nautilus is very powerful for bestowing on cloudform manafests I think this will be better for the deck. I actually splash red for Shaman of the great hunt and being able to pump this guy to 4 power while providing devotion for nykthos seems great to me. Something to note is that thassa does provide evasion so for 4 mana this is 5 unblockable with the ability to dodge removal. Also if your opponent tries to abzan charm an active thassa you can blink out to turn thassa into a non creature.
In my build I currently run 3 thassa 4 cloudform and 4 crystalline nautilus. While nautilus is very powerful for bestowing on cloudform manafests I think this will be better for the deck. I actually splash red for Shaman of the great hunt and being able to pump this guy to 4 power while providing devotion for nykthos seems great to me. Something to note is that thassa does provide evasion so for 4 mana this is 5 unblockable with the ability to dodge removal. Also if your opponent tries to abzan charm an active thassa you can blink out to turn thassa into a non creature.
Yeah you could go for all those tricks but devotion decks aren't about tricks as they are about aggro and tempo. Considering the current meta of strong midrange/control decks, aggro needs to get the ball rolling asap, that means every turn you're dropping and swinging trying to capitalize on all the fetch/painland/thoughseize/taplands your opponent plays.
Trying to find clever ways to protect your creatures that isn't a two mana counterspell and that involves investing tons of mana will more often than not make you lose the game because you lose out on tempo hard.
You obvously don't have to use the ficker ability but when it's good it's good. I will take a 2/2 with an upside for U any day of the week regardless of whether it gives devotion or not. The main reason to play the card is the UUU cmc and the ability to hit for 5. It's like a more badass frostburn weird. I would actually argue that the deck won't be tier in spite of having access to such a powerful card. I have been playing blue devotion but don't discout my experince based on the fact that I play a bad deck.(I know it's bad. Thats why I'm playing it.) This card may not be quite as good vs midrance but midrange is actually one of the decks better matchups. The evasive attacker and 4/1 beat sticks really punish midrange pre-board.
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Quick question, does his flicker effect protect him from targeted removal? Or will he still be targeted when he returns? I'm a noob don't laugh ._.
Regardless, it's obviously a good card that at the very least warrants consideration when building mono U. My question is, is it worth playing the affinity version of monoU, with like ensoul artifact and ornithopter? A more pure devotion strategy might be a better idea now with some of the new cards being revealed but I'm honestly not sure at this point.
Quick question, does his flicker effect protect him from targeted removal? Or will he still be targeted when he returns? I'm a noob don't laugh ._.
Regardless, it's obviously a good card that at the very least warrants consideration when building mono U. My question is, is it worth playing the affinity version of monoU, with like ensoul artifact and ornithopter? A more pure devotion strategy might be a better idea now with some of the new cards being revealed but I'm honestly not sure at this point.
He'll no longer be targeted.
Quote from Comprehensive Rules 400.7 »
An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. [...]
Btw, how do you feel with Mirror Mockery on Master of Waves? Even without this elemental BluDev got some really nice tools.
Could always try to not over extend with it and just do that and hold up counters. T4 Master of the Waves, T5, that on master and hold up a counter. Still funny lol
Quick question, does his flicker effect protect him from targeted removal? Or will he still be targeted when he returns? I'm a noob don't laugh ._.
Regardless, it's obviously a good card that at the very least warrants consideration when building mono U. My question is, is it worth playing the affinity version of monoU, with like ensoul artifact and ornithopter? A more pure devotion strategy might be a better idea now with some of the new cards being revealed but I'm honestly not sure at this point.
He'll no longer be targeted.
Quote from Comprehensive Rules 400.7 »
An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. [...]
Btw, how do you feel with Mirror Mockery on Master of Waves? Even without this elemental BluDev got some really nice tools.
Thanks for the clarification.
And yes I personally love mirror mockery, I think it has great applications. I said this in a different thread, but it also has great synergy with riptide chimera. Idk if mono U has the chancechance of being tier 1 again, but it definitely has a lot of potential.
I know I'm derailing my own topic, but quick question on Mirror Mockery.
Let's say someone drops a Siege Rhino, I enchant it, when it attacks, I get the token right??
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Hello there ol blue. Anyone else seeing a mono blue devotion coming again??
Elemental, so he plays super nice with Master of Waves.
He's got a pump, he defends himself, he has a bounce to protect himself. He does it ALL.
Thoughts, comments? I definitely think he will be a HUGE card.
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Shorecrasher Elemental
4 Military Intelligence
4 Cloudform
4 Singing Bell Strike
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Gudul Lurker
4 Triton Shorestalker
24 Island
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm still working on this. I really just don't want to be running 8 4-drops in an aggro deck that also has multiple mana sinks if possible. However, right now it is working, though Bident might work better.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Also, would it be worth trying to squeeze in a 1 or maybe 2-of of Hall of Triumph?
I think the deck should be fine with running Bidents (or maybe a split between bident and intelligence), since MUD didn't have an issue with running MoW, Bident, AND Jace previously. Looks like it'll be a fun deck, though! I certainly hope that it's at least a fringe playable thing, come the new standard.
EDIT: And of course, as a devotion deck, you might as well run Nykthos. It'll be particularly helpful with the mana sinks that otherwise would take a lot more investment.
I'll try the Bident.
Maybe, but I don't want to have my offense stopped by a Mantis Rider.
I'll try to fit it in.
I'll run a split. Bident is sometimes more useful, but Intelligence can be cast to draw cards if you are mana screwed.
I would, but I want to be able to case Shorecrasher Elemental and leave up a blue mana to protect him from removal in the same turn. I don't want to take risks with Nykthos stopping me from doing that.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
hm... I feel like you really miss out on some of the late game explosiveness that the deck could achieve by not including any copies. I do understand your concerns about shorecrasher, though. On the other hand, MUD never really had a huge problem with Nightveil getting wiped when it was casting that last standard, did it? I mean, it's not like removal of a 3 toughness creature (or even 4 toughness, if you're dropping on turn 4 and keeping a mana open) ha gotten much better since then, although stoke is run a ton more in the current standard...
maybe consider trying to run just a 2 or 3 of? It feels like a waste to not take advantage of all that devotion you'll be running around with.
Also, I guess I don't really keep up with standard super closely, but what decks are actually running Mantis Rider at this point? Jeskai Ascendency decks seem to have shifted towards tokens and the Rabblemaster/Outburst package. If it's just a single card that isn't even run in a bunch of the popular decks that your worried about, is it really worth losing the late game utility? Then again, I suppose that's mostly down to a local meta call.
Fair enough.
Jeskai Tempo still is running 4 Mantis Riders.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I dunno, maybe singing bell strike will be enough to serve that purpose, I'm not really sure.
Thanks for the suggestions, though I think this could actually be tier 1. Losing Tidebinder Mage and Frostburn Weird hurts, but Singing Bell Strike might be better than Rapid Hybridization because it gives devotion and losing Mutavault shouldn't matter as much since every deck lost Mutavault. What would your list be?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The exile effect is basically useless inside devotion. He comes back face down = 0 devotion. Every 4 drop in the format is bigger than him even with a MoW pumping him. He cannot even attack through a courser w/o MoW on the board.
Blue devo has other problems. RtR-Theros MU worked because its 1 drops could scale into bigger threats as the game went on. Mutavault and tidebinder mage were the real cornerstones of the deck.
Right now Hypnotic Siren is the only consideration for the 1 mana slot and it just isn't powerful enough as a 1/1. There is no UU for the 2 CMC slot that is playable. Mindreaver is literally the ONLY UU creature in standard.
There are some major holes to fill for this deck to become viable again. 1/3 of the set spoiled so far. There is more to come but I'm not hopeful.
UUU casting cost: Probably the biggest push for devotion in Khans block. Getting 3 devotion is quite strong in turning on Thassa or getting more out of master of waves. Unfortunately, the fact that it is 3 cmc means it fights for a spot amongst cloudform and Thassa.
Elemental subtype: Synergizes well with master of waves. Elemental U devotion is definitely strong when paired with the likes of Vaporkin, frostwalker and obelisk of Urd.
1st ability: The innate protection. On one hand, it dodges mass removal. On the other hand, it is a massive (and I mean massive) tempo lost. Not only does it come back face down (no devotion), but it requires quite a bit of mana investment to get it flipped. I honestly prefer cloudform's hexproof over this because realistically, the only mass sweeper you're going to run into playing this deck is crux of fate, Ugin, and drown in sorrow. Not worth sacrificing the deck's main strategy of aggro tempo just to dodge these cards.
2nd ability: Gives some reach in offense and some reach in defense, never both at the same time. Requires mana investment and the lack of any form of built in combat evasion means the defensive option is probably going to be used more.
Megamorph: highly irrelevant, you never want to play him as a face down card. The +1/+1 counter does not even remotely justify it.
3/3 body: On curve body but nothing special, can run over caryatids and trade with early game abzan but that's not what you want to be doing if the plan is to build devotion.
*****end analysis*******
TL;DR: No evasion and abilities that don't synergize with the strategy of U devotion means its probably going to lose out to cloudform. I rather take the one less U in exchange for evasion and less mana intensive protection investment.
Yeah you could go for all those tricks but devotion decks aren't about tricks as they are about aggro and tempo. Considering the current meta of strong midrange/control decks, aggro needs to get the ball rolling asap, that means every turn you're dropping and swinging trying to capitalize on all the fetch/painland/thoughseize/taplands your opponent plays.
Trying to find clever ways to protect your creatures that isn't a two mana counterspell and that involves investing tons of mana will more often than not make you lose the game because you lose out on tempo hard.
turn 2 Omenspeaker/Anticipate : order Shorecrasher Elemental
turn 3 Cloudform : Shorecrasher Elemental
turn 4 UUU and manifest Shorecrasher Elemental ; U +1/-1 : atack 5 fly and hexproof and devotion 7 in turn 4
Regardless, it's obviously a good card that at the very least warrants consideration when building mono U. My question is, is it worth playing the affinity version of monoU, with like ensoul artifact and ornithopter? A more pure devotion strategy might be a better idea now with some of the new cards being revealed but I'm honestly not sure at this point.
He'll no longer be targeted.
Btw, how do you feel with Mirror Mockery on Master of Waves? Even without this elemental BluDev got some really nice tools.
MTGO: UberMower
Thats pretty silly haha, like super silly
It would be if there wasn't so much black removal in the format and Ultimate Price didn't just get reprinted.
Thanks for the clarification.
And yes I personally love mirror mockery, I think it has great applications. I said this in a different thread, but it also has great synergy with riptide chimera. Idk if mono U has the chancechance of being tier 1 again, but it definitely has a lot of potential.
Let's say someone drops a Siege Rhino, I enchant it, when it attacks, I get the token right??