I've played Sultai ramp a lot with great success with this list and one of the thing i keep asking myself is if this deck really want Sylvan Caryatid in it or if it is better to run 27 lands 4 Frontier Siege and go 3 Thoughtseize 3 Bile Blight. Right now i find caryatid poorly positioned and i side it out a lot. This would also open some sideboard slots. I like the deck a lot because of its flexibility and u got to play with some of the most powerful cards avaible in standard. One other of my concern is Crux of Fate because the card is really good only against green devotion or at killing stormbreath dragon while keeping your own dudes maybe if i go 4 Siege i'll try to go up to 3 Queen because the dragon mode+Queen is really strong in those same match.
Liliana might also deserve a main deck spot, she has proven to be extremly good and allows me to cut on Dig against aggro while beeing able to tutor for Feed the Clan or Tasigur, i've even tutored my single jungle hollow with coursers on board to get out of Stoke the Flames range. Playing liliana main deck could also allow more one-of or an interpret the signs too.
As for Ashiok, i really dislike the card since it does almost nothing most of the time, even more since the printing of Torrent Elemental, so i play none of it but i'm still thinking about a one-of Kiora since it can be useful (i was thinking about liliana's tutor+kiora's draw) even if the card is fragile. Nissa is amazing with both frontier siege and ugin and is one of the strongest threat since it will almost always need two or more specific card to be answered or she will win the game on her own in a couple of turns.
Sagu Mauler are amazing in every match where hornet queen is bad and dodges most removals and played counterspells (only crackling doom is a concern tbh), as well as beeing probably the best answer to ugin.
Well, keep ignoring how good Tasigur is and running 4x Ugin I guess.
You do realize that you're posting in a thread specifically about brewing a deck with 4 Ugin in it right? And that you're flaming?
Any post that's not about turboing out Ugin simply does not belong in this thread. There are literally dozens of threads about Tasigur. This one is about Ugin.
I Don´t understand the presence of Tasigur, the Golden Fang. He´s a defence weapon or an atack strategy?
Both of them, he's a threath on his own with his great stat, he's a decent ground blocker if u need him, he's card advantage engine with Frontier Siege (not mentionning the absurdity of double siege+tasigur), he can also filter your draws with courser and he is an awesome mana dump for a deck which plays 26 lands+4 caryatid+3 frontier siege. Additionnaly costing 6 is a huge bonus both with and against Ugin.
About Ugin, this deck will never need 4 of it because you have dig through time and it is a 8 mana planeswalker that can come with 9 loyalty. Only 3 cards can kill him (utter end, garruk and hero's downfall, no banishing light/perilous vault isn't a good answer vs sultai charm ) so i'll never play more than 2 of it.
This is a thread about brewing a deck with 4 ugins in it. The ONLY thing the deck needs is 4 ugin. The rest is up to the brewers.
Read the OP before posting, newb.
Have you considered that perhaps the optimal build of the deck does not require a playset of Ugin? I realize you already purchased a full set, but maybe the deck will perform better without 4. Given that the deck runs dig through time and has 8 scrylands and kiora, and since Ugin isn't useful in multiples, I would suggest testing with 3. As for reading comprehension, your OP refers to your playset of Ugin but doesn't say you are building with the deck constraint of always running 4 ugin (which is a silly constraint to place on yourself), you say it is about ramping into Ugin.
Yeah sure maybe it doesn't need 4 (it does, btw because I've been playing it a tonne) but the point I'm trying to make is that I made a thread about something very specific, and there are several threads about tasigur and other sultai ideas. But if you starta thread on this forum right now that is about anything other than siege rhino or tasigur all the trolls come along and talk for pages about siege rhino or tasigur. There are a dozen threads to talk about sultai tasigur decks. This is not one of them. It's a card that doesn't even fit into the strategy of the deck. The deck is about making huge piles of mana to turbo out big spells like Ugin or Garruk or whatever. Tasigur is neither a big bomb to ramp out nor a way to ramp out big bombs. It's just a random over-rated value card that people are turfing into every build right now because it works in modern.
Thanks for this kind answer, i was going to be less pleasant.
As of Sultai turbo ugin, i think it's a wrong appelation, the thing that all those decks have in common and distinguish them from other Sultai builds (Sidsi brews or control like Fabiano's deck) is Frontier Siege, it's the glue that makes the deck stick, Ugin beeing a nice kill/reset but not the only way to go. I think Sultai Ramp is a more appropriate name.
You can't articulate how wrong I am because I'm not wrong, so there's no way to articulate it.
This card is garbage. He's a big hype right now because he's legitimately good in modern, but in standard he's just an overcosted beater. Sometimes you might get lucky and get the 4/5 on turn 3 or 4 or whatever, but that same thing can be achieved way better in abzan with caryatid + rhino and rhino actually threatens the opponent.
I strongly dissagree with this statement, Tasigur is an extremely powerful card, specially when your gameplan isn't playing it on turn 2 or 3 but way later in the game with mana up to use its ability right away. With a bit of luck, you will leave only that Ugin that got thoughtseized earlier or that Nissa that got killed and mill 2 lands when you use Tasigur. I can't count the times where i play Tasigur for 2/3 mana and thanks to Frontier Siege i can activate him twice right away which is an insanely powerful play and almost always wins the game if my opponent don't have an immediate answer for him.
Yeah sure maybe it doesn't need 4 (it does, btw because I've been playing it a tonne) but the point I'm trying to make is that I made a thread about something very specific, and there are several threads about tasigur and other sultai ideas. But if you starta thread on this forum right now that is about anything other than siege rhino or tasigur all the trolls come along and talk for pages about siege rhino or tasigur. There are a dozen threads to talk about sultai tasigur decks. This is not one of them. It's a card that doesn't even fit into the strategy of the deck. The deck is about making huge piles of mana to turbo out big spells like Ugin or Garruk or whatever. Tasigur is neither a big bomb to ramp out nor a way to ramp out big bombs. It's just a random over-rated value card that people are turfing into every build right now because it works in modern.
You're wrong about Tasigur, it clearly belongs to this kind of builds because you are the deck most fit to abuse it for two reasons : you have the mana for it and you have gamebreaking spells to reccur. Even reccuring a removal/thoughtseize is huge in this mid-range oriented meta, the only 2 cards i'm not happy to get back are caryatid and crux of fate. In my deck the card that Tasigur have replaced is Treasure Cruise/Prognostic Sphinx which i needed in order to find my few threats (if you rely ONLY on ugin to win, even playing 4 of it won't do it against the vast majority of the field) and i can assure you Tasigur is a strict upgrade to Treasure Cruise or Sphinx in this deck. Tasigur is a decent sized beater (kills in 5 attacks), a decent blocker, a card advantage engine. All that in a card that can cost 1 mana. I think you can definitively call it a bomb.
One more thing, try to avoid the "newbies", "trolls" or other terms like that when people are trying to have an argumented conversation, they add nothing to the debate, can make other people angry and lead you to beeing ban.
As I guess I was the first "troll" to bring a non-4-Ugin build into this discussion, I'll say that as mentioned very articulately above, it is because these lists are tied together unlike other Sultai brews by running some mix of Frontier Siege and Ugin. I tried posting my list elsewhere, but was told to post it in here instead. I would happily make another thread for our Tasigur-heavy lists, but it would probably get locked or merged with Sultai Delve - which would be a shame.
For those having trouble with UB control and Pearl Lake Ancient, I've often fantasized resolving a Stain the Mind against them, though it probably isn't ever going to happen.
As I guess I was the first "troll" to bring a non-4-Ugin build into this discussion, I'll say that as mentioned very articulately above, it is because these lists are tied together unlike other Sultai brews by running some mix of Frontier Siege and Ugin. I tried posting my list elsewhere, but was told to post it in here instead. I would happily make another thread for our Tasigur-heavy lists, but it would probably get locked or merged with Sultai Delve - which would be a shame.
Hey mate I'm wondering how you did with testing the feed the clans in your version of the deck did you make Any change? If so please feel free to send an updated decklist I'm havingnfunlaying this deck
Hey mate, was just about to get back to you. Haven't been able to get out and play any magic in the last few days, so have only been able playing games against the Abzan deck I have sleeved up at home, so Feed the Clan hasn't gotten a run out yet. I'm excited to see how this goes on Game Day this weekend though.
RE: Thoughtseize. I've definitely been considering using those two spots I have for Rakshasha's Secret used more effectively. I'm tossing up between Thoughtseize, Crux or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in there. I think Thoughtseize, if it deserves a slot in this deck, would be most effective in the SB and I'm hesitant to give MB slots to it. Crux has been good against Abzan, but I feel it might be a bit clunky against other matchups, so am also thinking it too hits the SB. Testing Ashiok now, seeing it seems to be a mainstay in Sultai Control lists. Thoughts on her/it?
Mr. Stoned Crab, your list has some interesting choices. How has 4 MB Thoughtseize been for you? I've seen a lot of people complaining that Thoughtseize is just not a good maindeck card at the moment, and I tend to agree. Four seems a lot, even disregarding that! Also, how has Nissa been? That's another card I'm interested in.
I've choosed to run 4 Thoughtseize main deck for a few reasons :
.i play 13 lands that comes into play tap, i need a 1 mana spell for early stages of the game, specially if i have to go with 2 taplands in first two turns
.Thoughtseize allows you to get info on your opponent hand and to play accordingly which can be huge and really important to protect your walkers from downfall or counters
. The best turn 1 play in a deck playing dig+tasigur is thoughtseize
. The card thoughtseize is fighting for in this slot is bile blight, if you expect a meta without UB control, sultai whip, GB constellation, then bile blight is probably better main deck.
About planeswalkers, since i've tested all playables walkers of this shard (even the *****ty jace^^) i can give you some insight on them :
. Ashiok is weak, don't protect itself, can be a "do nothing card" even in match-up it is supposed to shine in, forces you to play multiple of him if you want to rely on the mill plan so it can also cripple your hand by drawing multiples. The last argument that kills Ashiok for me is Torrent Elemental, this card makes Ashiok feel so dumb, just imagine vs ub control going thoughtseize on turn 2 to protect your ashiok from counter, play ashiok on turn 3 and mill Torrent Elemental. I've done that multiple time and it sucks hard.
. Kiora is actually fine for her interaction with courser and at being additional copies of Frontier Siege (somehow fill the same purpose). She is just incredibly bad against anything with red in it or hasty/flash creatures. Her +1 ability is relevant against heroic and, surprisingly, against opposing Ugin.
If you chose to play those two walkers, i strongly recommand playing some Crux of Fate to protect them.
. Jace is just too weak and his UU is too mana intensive in a deck with courser, queen and multiple BB spells. Even if his bounce can be devastating with thoughtseize, his 2 other abilities are too weak and his ultimate feels like a nerf version of ugin's. Suffers too of beeing bad against red decks and hasty beaters.
. Liliana is really good as a one-of and could desserve a main-deck spot, all of her abilities are relevant, the +1 is amazing against mid range, control and even against burn (you +1 her, they can burn you in which case you'll tutor feed the clan or burn her and save you some life as well as 3 for 1 them since they will need 2 burn to kill her or if you have some coursers you can tutor the solo jungle hollow to win some life), the tutor is amazing with so many high impact spells and works with kiora -1 as well, the ultimate is most of the time game winning.
. Nissa is probably the 2nd most powerful planeswalker in the deck after Ugin, with a turn 3 siege you can attack on turn 4 with her even if you play a tap land or play a courser on 2nd main if you have an untap land, her tokens are immune to ugin -x which is pretty relevant, she's an incredibly fast clock in a deck that is rather slow, turning lands 4/4 is important for Feed the Clan and she is a must be answered card which will need at least two cards to be dealt with. On the funny note, i play 3 basic and 0 forest but that just shows how nissa first power is one of the most powerful ever printed on a planeswalker.
. Garruk is good but you should really look at it as an additionnal hero's downfall with upside. Suffers from being weak to downfall (7 mana for a 3/3 is expensive).
.Ugin is self mandatory, an amazing reset button, a wincon on his own (quite hard to lose if you can ultimate him) and it can come with 9 counters which is quite insane. What's not to love with the Spirit Dragon ?
You realize the main reason he's good is that he's easily a 4/5 for 1 black and his ability is just an added bonus, yeah? Because I really can't articulate how wrong you are. There are some cards in this deck you can maybe argue aren't good, but Tasigur is objectively very, very good and he's currently seeing play in basically any decks that run black including UB control and Abzan.
Hey mang, would you mind posting up your version of coyws ugin ramp? Id like to see what you did differently in mainboard sideboard and lands thanks for your comments btw you guys have been very helpful!! and just for Ultralunch im gonna sideboard 2 more ugin just because i like the jaw drops of ppl seeing 4 ugins I know the deck dosent need em but how cool would it be to place with 4 ugins lol keep this amazing thread going guys!!
I posted my changes up above but here are the changes I'm taking to Gameday today (if I get off work early enough).
MB
-2 Treasure Cruise (trying a DTT 2-2 split)
-2 Rakshasa's Secret (it's decent, but I think the Thoughtseizes might be better for our gameplan)
-1 Negate (didn't do enough work)
+2 Thoughseize
+2 Dig Through Time
+1 Disdainful Stroke
SB
-1 Silence the Believers (never used it)
-1 Negate (barely used it)
-1 Disdainful Stroke (put it mainboard)
+2 Reality Shift (I really think this could be a huge advantage against aggro decks that give us the most trouble, it can blank a Rabblemaster and it gets rids of both phoenixes that see play that can be otherwise hard to deal with)
+1 Drown in Sorrow (I won a game last time I played entirely on a Drown in Sorrow at the right time against a board of tokens and a Rabblemaster and as it's one of our harder matchups I feel okay going a little overboard)
E: And actually if they have one in stock at my LGS I'll probably buy a Nissa and put it in the sideboard over Pearl Lake Ancient since I think it will give us more of a fighting shot against control. I might try to put another Heros Downfall in the side over something because last time I got ultimated by an Ashiok I had no answers for.
E2: Made the Nissa swap. Ignore the comment on Downfall. I was thinking I was only running 2 MB for some reason. I think 3 is the right amount. And to expand on why I think Nissa is better, UB is a different style of control that PLA is designed for and they do it better than us. They're going to be more likely to stick it than we are. Whereas even one manland off Nissan can use up two removal and let us overwhelm them before they can stabilize. The longer that match goes, the less likely our odds of winning, so we want more proactive early plays and PLA doesn't fit that plan.
Not so hot. Ended up 12/33 after losing my final match which would have put me in the top 8. Considering everyone who did make top 8 has been playing years and been to multiple high level events, I don't feel too bad, but I played extremely sloppy because my job required a 15 hour shift yesterday and then some more work today. I still think I got some more good insights into the deck, though.
1. UB Control 1-2
I have no idea how to play against this deck. I feel like I'm doing something wrong but I also feel like there just isn't anything to do but play everything you can and hope to sneak past their counters. Game 3 I managed to stick a Rakshasa Deathdealer early and then I got greedy and pumped it when attacking rather than just letting it swing for two and he had two kill spells and I only had the mana for one regen. If I had regened it twice I might have actually won that game solely off of it because the only thing that could take care of it would be a Perilous Vault and Perilous is easy for this deck to deal with. I won one game because he flooded pretty hard. He had two all land Jace's Ingenuity draws he said.
2. RW Tokens - 2-1
I kept a sketchy hand game one and wasn't anticipating a fast deck. After boarding I wrecked him easily. I wish I could play a token deck every match because they put up no fight against this deck after board.
3. Sultai control - 2-1
He was playing Fabiano's list with some really minor tweaks. These games were super fun and it went back and forth pretty well. We ended up going to time but on the end of turn 5 he had just tapped out for Silumgar and I had a Tasugar, a Silumgar, and I think a Courser on the board and my only card in hand was an Ugin and I was going to be able to play it unanswered next turn so he gave me the match win. He ended up getting 9th place. I only won the second game because it went on to the point where we each had like 15 cards in our decks and he pitched his last wincon with a Wayfinder. I had one life left but he literally had nothing left but kill and draw spells so he gave it to me.
4. Abzan midrange - 0-2
I lost pretty bad both games. I just couldn't keep up with his value creatures and never saw Crux of Fate. He was going to drop to go somewhere so he let me have the match win, though. First time playing Abzan and I felt really clueless how to play this deck against it.
5. RDW - 0-2
First game he just rolled me super hard. Second game I sided in all my hate and mulliganed a bad hand into a slightly less bad hand and prayed and then drew garbage and he won pretty easily. It took like 15 minutes for both games so we played 3 or 4 more, don't remember exactly, but each time he got me down below 10 and then I stabilized and he wasn't able to come back. I think I had a rough match-up against him pre-board but post-board I'd say it's at least 60-40 in my favor unless I get screwed on draws. One game Tasigur could only return a kill spell or a Feed the Clan and I ended up at like 32 life or something after being down to 12 or so.
6. Mardu midrange - 1-2
I wrecked him pretty efficiently game one and he board in a ton of planeswalkers and I just didn't have enough answers for them. Game three was going reasonably in my favor and I had board control and answers in hand and he Thoughtseized me twice and took them and I didn't draw anymore and he played Sarkhan, then Elpseth, then Sorin in three consecutive turns. I think I would have had game 3 if he hadn't drawn absolutely exactly what he needed. He also even said himself that game 2 was pretty much a perfect starting hand. I think this is a decent matchup that may even favor us a little bit depending. Crackling Doom hitting the greatest power creature instead of you just saccing a creature by choice is ridiculous and really hurts us since I would have possibly won game 2 if my Tasigur had survived another turn because it left me with just a Courser that didn't have enough power to kill his Sarkhan in the one turn I had the opportunity to pull it off.
All in all, it was a lot of fun. Couple card specific things:
- Nissa - Felt like win more. She did nothing when I was behind and didn't really secure much more when I was ahead. I do still think she has potential in this deck and I'm going to keep playing her.
- Bile Blight - I don't think I drew this once tonight despite boarding it in against several matchups. Have no idea how to feel about it.
- Dig Through Time - 100% on board the DTT train. Being able to filter directly to the answer I needed won me at least two games that I probably would have lost if I just TCed. Probably going to do a 3-1 split or drop TC altogether.
- Reality Shift - Saw some potential. I survived one of my post actual match RDW games because I used it on an Ashcloud Phoenix that would have been able to hit me for lethal and it got rid of it forever. I didn't get a chance to draw it in my Mardu match, but it would have blanked Sarkhan despite his indestructibility and that probably would have won me that match because Sarkhan was like 12-16 of my life lost in both games I lost. Had it boarded in, just never saw it. I think the card is better than it seems at first glance, especially against decks running red.
- Never really missed Negate tonight. I guess it would have been nice to use on Thoughtseize to spare my Disdainful Stroke, but eh, the odds of having a one-of in hand when I needed it are so small it seems silly to make deck decisions based on that.
I think that's all the changes I made or cards I was iffy on. I still feel really good about the deck and I don't know if it needs more tweaking so much as I need to learn how to play it better against certain decks.
My Gameday experience was much the same. I went 1-2 but then had to drop because I had something on, but still wanted to get the three games in. I definitely don't remember the games as clearly as you do, but here are some thoughts:
G1 vs RG Ramp - 0-2: I got absolutely rolled in game one by Temur Battlerage shenanigans, that were huge misplays from me in hindsight, but tbh, I wasn't expecting Battlerage. He was playing a very cool rogue-ish build and drew the absolute nuts against me in both games. In game two, he was able to fight through 3 Hero's Downfalls, 1 Murderous Cut AND two Bile Blights (LITERALLY ALL OF MY REMOVAL) and still won because he hit massive threat after massive threat. Although I lost both games, I feel like our deck is still good against his sort of deck - because usually, by the time I've used 6 removal spells I have hit Ugin or Hornet Queen or some sought of threat and they are running out of steam - not too worried in hindsight, just bad beats.
G2 vs UB Control - 2-1: I usually hate playing against UB Control, but for some reason, these games actually felt nice. Games one and two went right down to the wire - game one I got milled to death while he was at one life... if I had one more mana the turn before, I would've killed him but that's life. Game two went equally as long, and Torrent Elemental was the absolute king. In all three games he was, really. Sometimes he even got exiled by their own Ashiok, allowing me to play him (good times). He did the goods for me in this game. I have a vague memory of my opponent landing a Pearl Lake Ancient in this game, which is usually a pain in the ass - I can't remember how I beat it, but I must have somehow! Game three was absolutely nuts on my behalf, perhaps the quickest control "mirror" ever. I had 10 minutes + turns to kill him, and I did it on T2. It was a simple matter of pushing through his counterspells with threats, while (and this is key) COUNTERING his draw spells. I had 2 Stroke and 3 Negate in my deck after siding, and pretty much held them almost exclusively to counter his Dig Through Times and Ingenuities. Combining this with Tasigur + Tasigur + Courser + Elemental + Elemental etc. put immense pressure on him until he simply broke, and I was able to follow up with Hornet Queen and then Ugin. It was as satisfying a win against UB Control I've ever had.
G3 vs Abzan Aggro - 0-2: I was excited to see this matchup because I'd been testing against the deck all week and felt like post-SBing, I could beat it at least 60% of the time (which is better than nothing). Unfortunately, I just drew the absolute worst hands in both games. Game one I kept a two lander + Wayfinder... the Wayfinder missed, and I was promptly smashed to my death. Game two, I had to mulligan to four... it had Crux of Fate, and three lands, but by the time I died, I was still on three lands.
Notes:
Although the result was meh, I wasn't too discouraged. The Abzan match was pretty much a write off, and in games for fun afterwards I beat him in 2/2 times. The UB Control matchup was heartening because I also beat UB Control at my 3-1 at FNM on Friday in a very similar manner (with Torrent Elemental being MVP) - maybe this matchup isn't as terrible as we think it is, although I feel Negate is extremely useful (though Stroke at the very least counters their draw spells, which is key). I've proxied up a UB list and will do some testing against it throughout the next few days - two things I want to try are Ashiok in the SB aswell as Whisperwood Elemental in the SB. As you noted, RW matchups feel really good, especially with life-gain in the SB to draw us out of burn range once we stabilise. I'm curious to see what our matchup will be like against these RG Devotion decks that seem to be popping up. I tend to think we should be good, with Crux of Fate, access to Stroke, Torrent Elemental being able to tap down their board to get through damage, Downfall to deal with their Ugins, while having our own Ugins etc.
After last FNM and now Game Day, one thing I will be doing is dropping the MB counterspells to up my land count to 26. I've lost too many games from land-screw to sit on my laurels. Maybe 25 will be better, but I'll start at 26. Also, I'm probably going to MB two Crux of Fate - it comes in against so many decks that I might as well just MB it. Thoughtseize will then be next on my list of things to think about. I'm still going to stick with 2-2 Dig/Cruise combo, because I've often gotten frustrated by the UU needed for Dig, but there's a certain depressing inevitability about 4 Dig becoming the ultimate resolution.
In terms of Reality Shift, I can't help but feel that card just isn't worth it in any list that has access to black - because black just has plain good actual removal.
BTW, I'm starting to think we should maybe just take our discussions to the Sultai Control thread, seeing we are heading in that direction. I still love our lists more than more Fabiano-style lists though.
Yes, it's a Block Constructed, due to me being crazy. Also, I saw three Portuguese Alt Ugins in hands of one person... how hard should I hate the bastard?
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I haven't really had any major land issues and I definitely was never kept off my UU for Dig ever. The only time I even noticed a shortage of a color was green when I was trying to keep a Deathdealer with regen mana open. Occasionally I've had a couple plays come a turn later than ideal because I only had a tapland in hand, but that's kind of the nature of this standard.
And again on Reality Shift, it can kill dragonform indestructible Sarkhan, which absolutely wrecked me, and yeah Hero's Downfall can kill him when he's not +1ed, but if they're running Elspeths and Sorins too then it's not a bad deal. And it permanently gets rid of both recurring Phoenix cards, which can easily be a headache for us. It's definitely just a sideboard card, but there's enough cards that kill spells don't adequately deal with that I think it's worth having. And even if I side it in against red and they don't play those cards, it's a solid play against Stormbreath and Rabblemaster and it's easier to have the mana open for it to hit them before they hit us. And against the Boros decks that are becoming fairly popular, it doesn't care if they Valorous Stance their Monastery Mentor against a kill spell, which really hurts us. I really think it's great tech against decks running red but agree that black is superior otherwise.
Not sure how I feel about Crux in the main. It's good, but most of the games where I really needed a board wipe, it's too late for me to recover by turn 5. Like I've won several games now where if I had drawn a Crux of Fate instead of Drown in Sorrow I almost certainly would have lost. I think it's best against mono G devotion and Abzan decks that take a little longer to get going, but my meta is way more aggro focused. If your meta is more midrange, it is definitely the smart move, though.
It may make sense to move to the control thread, but I feel like they play extremely differently. His deck tries to control the board with counters and removal and we try to control the board with a mix of value creatures and removal, and I also like your list (I'd love to call it our lists but you made the core that I've just tweaked to my tastes) way better.
Yes, it's a Block Constructed, due to me being crazy. Also, I saw three Portuguese Alt Ugins in hands of one person... how hard should I hate the bastard?
You have so much ramp and only four cards worth ramping into. I would take out like half the ramp and put in more Ugins and Villainous Wealths and probably some more card draw so you can actually make sure you get your threats.
Yeah, I only used cards I had available at the moment, may change some of these by the end of the month. What I wanna get myself are "Toothless", they may help me. And I have myself some other big hitters as well leaning to the green side, like Arashin War Beast (I own two). But on the other hand, have several draw cards on the other side, like Enhanced Awareness (I have four). I'm not lacking on any of them, actually, but the deck was meant mainly into ramp. However, I can do without the doggies, the worst of my ramp-likes, and look for more of the other cards... and I need to fight the Toothless, they would totally help me.
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Oh, very interesting points made there. The getting around Valorous Stance in particular does sound very useful, and is something I hadn't considered. I guess another fairytale scenario is: you have Courser on the field and can see you have a critter on top of your library. They send removal at your Courser, and in response you Reality Shift your own Courser. Or even just Reality Shifting a Torrent Elemental if they desperately send a Stance at it. A bit greedy, but could be relevant.
I ended up biting the bullet and dropping my 4th Tasigurs and Sultai Charms, to let me MB Blights. I feel dirty, but I guess its probably the right choice. I went 2-0 against UW Heroic and two UB Controls. My anti-control sideboard plan worked a charm, this is what I packed:
I basically wanted to try out a bunch of SB cards, focusing on taking out my archenemy, control decks. Worked out very well! This is what I did against control:
Basically, I dramatically increased my threat density to sculpt my deck to a point where I am presenting them with something they must answer every turn. Yet I still have a few counterspells to get in their way, draw spells to keep up and Ugins in the super-late game. It worked brilliantly, both control decks struggled for mana in the Game Ones, so I was able to sneak wins - and then I absolutely rolled them in both G2s. Resolving a Deathdealer, Ashiok, Tasigur, Whisperwood or Nissa and having it stick around for more than a turn is big, big game against them. Meanwhile, Torrent Elemental just keeps chipping away. Silumgar is in my SB for tokens, but I thought I might as well chuck him in out of the board too, just to add another threat.
My loss of the night came against RW Aggro. Game One was a blow, as I kept a risky two lander and then missed on my Wayfinder and never really got in the game. G2 I mulliganed into a nice six and the game went fairly as you'd expect. After staving off his early plays with removal, I stabilised with a big Tasigur + Feed the Clans turn and then controlled the game into Silumgar, Hornet Queen and then Ugin. G3 was much like game one, unfortunately, just got beaten up and killed on turn 5. Usually I like the RW Aggro matchup, as I find most games go like the second, but tonight wasn't the night.
Beating Heroic was surprisingly easier than I thought. I even won off a mulligan to 5, albeit, he didn't seem to draw God's Willing or Feat of Resistance that game. Next game I was able to resolve Ugin (thanks to some Feed the Clans stalling), play around his God's Willing/Defiant-Strikes by -2ing instead of +2ing his dudes away until he ran out of them, and then proceeded to win.
Overall, I really liked my sideboard today. Being able to deal so handily with control is what I've been trying to figure out for a while. Whisperwood Elemental is probably the most questionable card, but he didn't come up in any games today unfortunately so I wasn't able to see him out. But I have high hopes for the guy. I plan to bring him in against any grindy matchups, as he can get out of control.
Thoughtseize is the final card that I feel like I should be playing, but haven't gotten around to using yet. I think I'll start with two of them MB over the two Crux of Fate at my next standard tourney, and move Crux to the SB dropping Silumgar (he did really well in his one appearance tonight, but I still can't help but feel he might be too slow) and a Disdainful Stroke.
Won against: jeskai tokens/outpost seige and abzan midrange
Draw against: temur midrange
Lost against: 5 color jank deck (underworld cerberus, siege rhino, stormbreath, etc..) ran out of time on the third game.
Literally speaking, this is a U/B control splashing green for the walkers, charms and weath.
A lot of people ask why no thoughtseize? I used it before and found it tended to drain me too quickly so I switched it out for despise since it still hits walkers and creatures (like rhino and stormbreath), other spells just counter em.
Villainous weath, this has been a pet tech card of mine and everytime I use it I manage to hit a lot of cards even if I cast it for five, but ideally I use it late game for 8 as it hits everything except lands. Awesome card if you ask me.
Seeing the cards for dtk, I get a lot of mix emotions on how to go forward with the deck, but for sure I'Ll be finding room for anticipate and maybe a spot on the side for the new silumgar.
How bout you guys, how are you changing your lists post DTK?
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4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Jungle Hollow
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures : 12
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Hornet Queen
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Enchantement : 3
3 Frontier Siege
Instants : 8
3 Dig Through Time
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Sultai Charm
Sorcery : 6
4 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
2 Sagu Mauler
1 Liliana Vess
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Feed the Clan
1 Sultai Charm
3 Negate
4 Bile Blight
1 Dig Through Time
I've played Sultai ramp a lot with great success with this list and one of the thing i keep asking myself is if this deck really want Sylvan Caryatid in it or if it is better to run 27 lands 4 Frontier Siege and go 3 Thoughtseize 3 Bile Blight. Right now i find caryatid poorly positioned and i side it out a lot. This would also open some sideboard slots. I like the deck a lot because of its flexibility and u got to play with some of the most powerful cards avaible in standard. One other of my concern is Crux of Fate because the card is really good only against green devotion or at killing stormbreath dragon while keeping your own dudes maybe if i go 4 Siege i'll try to go up to 3 Queen because the dragon mode+Queen is really strong in those same match.
Liliana might also deserve a main deck spot, she has proven to be extremly good and allows me to cut on Dig against aggro while beeing able to tutor for Feed the Clan or Tasigur, i've even tutored my single jungle hollow with coursers on board to get out of Stoke the Flames range. Playing liliana main deck could also allow more one-of or an interpret the signs too.
As for Ashiok, i really dislike the card since it does almost nothing most of the time, even more since the printing of Torrent Elemental, so i play none of it but i'm still thinking about a one-of Kiora since it can be useful (i was thinking about liliana's tutor+kiora's draw) even if the card is fragile. Nissa is amazing with both frontier siege and ugin and is one of the strongest threat since it will almost always need two or more specific card to be answered or she will win the game on her own in a couple of turns.
Sagu Mauler are amazing in every match where hornet queen is bad and dodges most removals and played counterspells (only crackling doom is a concern tbh), as well as beeing probably the best answer to ugin.
You do realize that you're posting in a thread specifically about brewing a deck with 4 Ugin in it right? And that you're flaming?
Any post that's not about turboing out Ugin simply does not belong in this thread. There are literally dozens of threads about Tasigur. This one is about Ugin.
Both of them, he's a threath on his own with his great stat, he's a decent ground blocker if u need him, he's card advantage engine with Frontier Siege (not mentionning the absurdity of double siege+tasigur), he can also filter your draws with courser and he is an awesome mana dump for a deck which plays 26 lands+4 caryatid+3 frontier siege. Additionnaly costing 6 is a huge bonus both with and against Ugin.
About Ugin, this deck will never need 4 of it because you have dig through time and it is a 8 mana planeswalker that can come with 9 loyalty. Only 3 cards can kill him (utter end, garruk and hero's downfall, no banishing light/perilous vault isn't a good answer vs sultai charm ) so i'll never play more than 2 of it.
This is a thread about brewing a deck with 4 ugins in it. The ONLY thing the deck needs is 4 ugin. The rest is up to the brewers.
Read the OP before posting, newb.
Have you considered that perhaps the optimal build of the deck does not require a playset of Ugin? I realize you already purchased a full set, but maybe the deck will perform better without 4. Given that the deck runs dig through time and has 8 scrylands and kiora, and since Ugin isn't useful in multiples, I would suggest testing with 3. As for reading comprehension, your OP refers to your playset of Ugin but doesn't say you are building with the deck constraint of always running 4 ugin (which is a silly constraint to place on yourself), you say it is about ramping into Ugin.
Sorry for being such a newb!!!!!11
As of Sultai turbo ugin, i think it's a wrong appelation, the thing that all those decks have in common and distinguish them from other Sultai builds (Sidsi brews or control like Fabiano's deck) is Frontier Siege, it's the glue that makes the deck stick, Ugin beeing a nice kill/reset but not the only way to go. I think Sultai Ramp is a more appropriate name.
By the way,
I strongly dissagree with this statement, Tasigur is an extremely powerful card, specially when your gameplan isn't playing it on turn 2 or 3 but way later in the game with mana up to use its ability right away. With a bit of luck, you will leave only that Ugin that got thoughtseized earlier or that Nissa that got killed and mill 2 lands when you use Tasigur. I can't count the times where i play Tasigur for 2/3 mana and thanks to Frontier Siege i can activate him twice right away which is an insanely powerful play and almost always wins the game if my opponent don't have an immediate answer for him.
You're wrong about Tasigur, it clearly belongs to this kind of builds because you are the deck most fit to abuse it for two reasons : you have the mana for it and you have gamebreaking spells to reccur. Even reccuring a removal/thoughtseize is huge in this mid-range oriented meta, the only 2 cards i'm not happy to get back are caryatid and crux of fate. In my deck the card that Tasigur have replaced is Treasure Cruise/Prognostic Sphinx which i needed in order to find my few threats (if you rely ONLY on ugin to win, even playing 4 of it won't do it against the vast majority of the field) and i can assure you Tasigur is a strict upgrade to Treasure Cruise or Sphinx in this deck. Tasigur is a decent sized beater (kills in 5 attacks), a decent blocker, a card advantage engine. All that in a card that can cost 1 mana. I think you can definitively call it a bomb.
One more thing, try to avoid the "newbies", "trolls" or other terms like that when people are trying to have an argumented conversation, they add nothing to the debate, can make other people angry and lead you to beeing ban.
Hey mate I'm wondering how you did with testing the feed the clans in your version of the deck did you make Any change? If so please feel free to send an updated decklist I'm havingnfunlaying this deck
RE: Thoughtseize. I've definitely been considering using those two spots I have for Rakshasha's Secret used more effectively. I'm tossing up between Thoughtseize, Crux or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in there. I think Thoughtseize, if it deserves a slot in this deck, would be most effective in the SB and I'm hesitant to give MB slots to it. Crux has been good against Abzan, but I feel it might be a bit clunky against other matchups, so am also thinking it too hits the SB. Testing Ashiok now, seeing it seems to be a mainstay in Sultai Control lists. Thoughts on her/it?
Mr. Stoned Crab, your list has some interesting choices. How has 4 MB Thoughtseize been for you? I've seen a lot of people complaining that Thoughtseize is just not a good maindeck card at the moment, and I tend to agree. Four seems a lot, even disregarding that! Also, how has Nissa been? That's another card I'm interested in.
.i play 13 lands that comes into play tap, i need a 1 mana spell for early stages of the game, specially if i have to go with 2 taplands in first two turns
.Thoughtseize allows you to get info on your opponent hand and to play accordingly which can be huge and really important to protect your walkers from downfall or counters
. The best turn 1 play in a deck playing dig+tasigur is thoughtseize
. The card thoughtseize is fighting for in this slot is bile blight, if you expect a meta without UB control, sultai whip, GB constellation, then bile blight is probably better main deck.
About planeswalkers, since i've tested all playables walkers of this shard (even the *****ty jace^^) i can give you some insight on them :
. Ashiok is weak, don't protect itself, can be a "do nothing card" even in match-up it is supposed to shine in, forces you to play multiple of him if you want to rely on the mill plan so it can also cripple your hand by drawing multiples. The last argument that kills Ashiok for me is Torrent Elemental, this card makes Ashiok feel so dumb, just imagine vs ub control going thoughtseize on turn 2 to protect your ashiok from counter, play ashiok on turn 3 and mill Torrent Elemental. I've done that multiple time and it sucks hard.
. Kiora is actually fine for her interaction with courser and at being additional copies of Frontier Siege (somehow fill the same purpose). She is just incredibly bad against anything with red in it or hasty/flash creatures. Her +1 ability is relevant against heroic and, surprisingly, against opposing Ugin.
If you chose to play those two walkers, i strongly recommand playing some Crux of Fate to protect them.
. Jace is just too weak and his UU is too mana intensive in a deck with courser, queen and multiple BB spells. Even if his bounce can be devastating with thoughtseize, his 2 other abilities are too weak and his ultimate feels like a nerf version of ugin's. Suffers too of beeing bad against red decks and hasty beaters.
. Liliana is really good as a one-of and could desserve a main-deck spot, all of her abilities are relevant, the +1 is amazing against mid range, control and even against burn (you +1 her, they can burn you in which case you'll tutor feed the clan or burn her and save you some life as well as 3 for 1 them since they will need 2 burn to kill her or if you have some coursers you can tutor the solo jungle hollow to win some life), the tutor is amazing with so many high impact spells and works with kiora -1 as well, the ultimate is most of the time game winning.
. Nissa is probably the 2nd most powerful planeswalker in the deck after Ugin, with a turn 3 siege you can attack on turn 4 with her even if you play a tap land or play a courser on 2nd main if you have an untap land, her tokens are immune to ugin -x which is pretty relevant, she's an incredibly fast clock in a deck that is rather slow, turning lands 4/4 is important for Feed the Clan and she is a must be answered card which will need at least two cards to be dealt with. On the funny note, i play 3 basic and 0 forest but that just shows how nissa first power is one of the most powerful ever printed on a planeswalker.
. Garruk is good but you should really look at it as an additionnal hero's downfall with upside. Suffers from being weak to downfall (7 mana for a 3/3 is expensive).
.Ugin is self mandatory, an amazing reset button, a wincon on his own (quite hard to lose if you can ultimate him) and it can come with 9 counters which is quite insane. What's not to love with the Spirit Dragon ?
Hey mang, would you mind posting up your version of coyws ugin ramp? Id like to see what you did differently in mainboard sideboard and lands thanks for your comments btw you guys have been very helpful!! and just for Ultralunch im gonna sideboard 2 more ugin just because i like the jaw drops of ppl seeing 4 ugins I know the deck dosent need em but how cool would it be to place with 4 ugins lol keep this amazing thread going guys!!
MB
-2 Treasure Cruise (trying a DTT 2-2 split)
-2 Rakshasa's Secret (it's decent, but I think the Thoughtseizes might be better for our gameplan)
-1 Negate (didn't do enough work)
+2 Thoughseize
+2 Dig Through Time
+1 Disdainful Stroke
SB
-1 Silence the Believers (never used it)
-1 Negate (barely used it)
-1 Disdainful Stroke (put it mainboard)
+2 Reality Shift (I really think this could be a huge advantage against aggro decks that give us the most trouble, it can blank a Rabblemaster and it gets rids of both phoenixes that see play that can be otherwise hard to deal with)
+1 Drown in Sorrow (I won a game last time I played entirely on a Drown in Sorrow at the right time against a board of tokens and a Rabblemaster and as it's one of our harder matchups I feel okay going a little overboard)
E: And actually if they have one in stock at my LGS I'll probably buy a Nissa and put it in the sideboard over Pearl Lake Ancient since I think it will give us more of a fighting shot against control. I might try to put another Heros Downfall in the side over something because last time I got ultimated by an Ashiok I had no answers for.
E2: Made the Nissa swap. Ignore the comment on Downfall. I was thinking I was only running 2 MB for some reason. I think 3 is the right amount. And to expand on why I think Nissa is better, UB is a different style of control that PLA is designed for and they do it better than us. They're going to be more likely to stick it than we are. Whereas even one manland off Nissan can use up two removal and let us overwhelm them before they can stabilize. The longer that match goes, the less likely our odds of winning, so we want more proactive early plays and PLA doesn't fit that plan.
Not so hot. Ended up 12/33 after losing my final match which would have put me in the top 8. Considering everyone who did make top 8 has been playing years and been to multiple high level events, I don't feel too bad, but I played extremely sloppy because my job required a 15 hour shift yesterday and then some more work today. I still think I got some more good insights into the deck, though.
1. UB Control 1-2
I have no idea how to play against this deck. I feel like I'm doing something wrong but I also feel like there just isn't anything to do but play everything you can and hope to sneak past their counters. Game 3 I managed to stick a Rakshasa Deathdealer early and then I got greedy and pumped it when attacking rather than just letting it swing for two and he had two kill spells and I only had the mana for one regen. If I had regened it twice I might have actually won that game solely off of it because the only thing that could take care of it would be a Perilous Vault and Perilous is easy for this deck to deal with. I won one game because he flooded pretty hard. He had two all land Jace's Ingenuity draws he said.
2. RW Tokens - 2-1
I kept a sketchy hand game one and wasn't anticipating a fast deck. After boarding I wrecked him easily. I wish I could play a token deck every match because they put up no fight against this deck after board.
3. Sultai control - 2-1
He was playing Fabiano's list with some really minor tweaks. These games were super fun and it went back and forth pretty well. We ended up going to time but on the end of turn 5 he had just tapped out for Silumgar and I had a Tasugar, a Silumgar, and I think a Courser on the board and my only card in hand was an Ugin and I was going to be able to play it unanswered next turn so he gave me the match win. He ended up getting 9th place. I only won the second game because it went on to the point where we each had like 15 cards in our decks and he pitched his last wincon with a Wayfinder. I had one life left but he literally had nothing left but kill and draw spells so he gave it to me.
4. Abzan midrange - 0-2
I lost pretty bad both games. I just couldn't keep up with his value creatures and never saw Crux of Fate. He was going to drop to go somewhere so he let me have the match win, though. First time playing Abzan and I felt really clueless how to play this deck against it.
5. RDW - 0-2
First game he just rolled me super hard. Second game I sided in all my hate and mulliganed a bad hand into a slightly less bad hand and prayed and then drew garbage and he won pretty easily. It took like 15 minutes for both games so we played 3 or 4 more, don't remember exactly, but each time he got me down below 10 and then I stabilized and he wasn't able to come back. I think I had a rough match-up against him pre-board but post-board I'd say it's at least 60-40 in my favor unless I get screwed on draws. One game Tasigur could only return a kill spell or a Feed the Clan and I ended up at like 32 life or something after being down to 12 or so.
6. Mardu midrange - 1-2
I wrecked him pretty efficiently game one and he board in a ton of planeswalkers and I just didn't have enough answers for them. Game three was going reasonably in my favor and I had board control and answers in hand and he Thoughtseized me twice and took them and I didn't draw anymore and he played Sarkhan, then Elpseth, then Sorin in three consecutive turns. I think I would have had game 3 if he hadn't drawn absolutely exactly what he needed. He also even said himself that game 2 was pretty much a perfect starting hand. I think this is a decent matchup that may even favor us a little bit depending. Crackling Doom hitting the greatest power creature instead of you just saccing a creature by choice is ridiculous and really hurts us since I would have possibly won game 2 if my Tasigur had survived another turn because it left me with just a Courser that didn't have enough power to kill his Sarkhan in the one turn I had the opportunity to pull it off.
All in all, it was a lot of fun. Couple card specific things:
- Nissa - Felt like win more. She did nothing when I was behind and didn't really secure much more when I was ahead. I do still think she has potential in this deck and I'm going to keep playing her.
- Bile Blight - I don't think I drew this once tonight despite boarding it in against several matchups. Have no idea how to feel about it.
- Dig Through Time - 100% on board the DTT train. Being able to filter directly to the answer I needed won me at least two games that I probably would have lost if I just TCed. Probably going to do a 3-1 split or drop TC altogether.
- Reality Shift - Saw some potential. I survived one of my post actual match RDW games because I used it on an Ashcloud Phoenix that would have been able to hit me for lethal and it got rid of it forever. I didn't get a chance to draw it in my Mardu match, but it would have blanked Sarkhan despite his indestructibility and that probably would have won me that match because Sarkhan was like 12-16 of my life lost in both games I lost. Had it boarded in, just never saw it. I think the card is better than it seems at first glance, especially against decks running red.
- Never really missed Negate tonight. I guess it would have been nice to use on Thoughtseize to spare my Disdainful Stroke, but eh, the odds of having a one-of in hand when I needed it are so small it seems silly to make deck decisions based on that.
I think that's all the changes I made or cards I was iffy on. I still feel really good about the deck and I don't know if it needs more tweaking so much as I need to learn how to play it better against certain decks.
G1 vs RG Ramp - 0-2: I got absolutely rolled in game one by Temur Battlerage shenanigans, that were huge misplays from me in hindsight, but tbh, I wasn't expecting Battlerage. He was playing a very cool rogue-ish build and drew the absolute nuts against me in both games. In game two, he was able to fight through 3 Hero's Downfalls, 1 Murderous Cut AND two Bile Blights (LITERALLY ALL OF MY REMOVAL) and still won because he hit massive threat after massive threat. Although I lost both games, I feel like our deck is still good against his sort of deck - because usually, by the time I've used 6 removal spells I have hit Ugin or Hornet Queen or some sought of threat and they are running out of steam - not too worried in hindsight, just bad beats.
G2 vs UB Control - 2-1: I usually hate playing against UB Control, but for some reason, these games actually felt nice. Games one and two went right down to the wire - game one I got milled to death while he was at one life... if I had one more mana the turn before, I would've killed him but that's life. Game two went equally as long, and Torrent Elemental was the absolute king. In all three games he was, really. Sometimes he even got exiled by their own Ashiok, allowing me to play him (good times). He did the goods for me in this game. I have a vague memory of my opponent landing a Pearl Lake Ancient in this game, which is usually a pain in the ass - I can't remember how I beat it, but I must have somehow! Game three was absolutely nuts on my behalf, perhaps the quickest control "mirror" ever. I had 10 minutes + turns to kill him, and I did it on T2. It was a simple matter of pushing through his counterspells with threats, while (and this is key) COUNTERING his draw spells. I had 2 Stroke and 3 Negate in my deck after siding, and pretty much held them almost exclusively to counter his Dig Through Times and Ingenuities. Combining this with Tasigur + Tasigur + Courser + Elemental + Elemental etc. put immense pressure on him until he simply broke, and I was able to follow up with Hornet Queen and then Ugin. It was as satisfying a win against UB Control I've ever had.
G3 vs Abzan Aggro - 0-2: I was excited to see this matchup because I'd been testing against the deck all week and felt like post-SBing, I could beat it at least 60% of the time (which is better than nothing). Unfortunately, I just drew the absolute worst hands in both games. Game one I kept a two lander + Wayfinder... the Wayfinder missed, and I was promptly smashed to my death. Game two, I had to mulligan to four... it had Crux of Fate, and three lands, but by the time I died, I was still on three lands.
Notes:
Although the result was meh, I wasn't too discouraged. The Abzan match was pretty much a write off, and in games for fun afterwards I beat him in 2/2 times. The UB Control matchup was heartening because I also beat UB Control at my 3-1 at FNM on Friday in a very similar manner (with Torrent Elemental being MVP) - maybe this matchup isn't as terrible as we think it is, although I feel Negate is extremely useful (though Stroke at the very least counters their draw spells, which is key). I've proxied up a UB list and will do some testing against it throughout the next few days - two things I want to try are Ashiok in the SB aswell as Whisperwood Elemental in the SB. As you noted, RW matchups feel really good, especially with life-gain in the SB to draw us out of burn range once we stabilise. I'm curious to see what our matchup will be like against these RG Devotion decks that seem to be popping up. I tend to think we should be good, with Crux of Fate, access to Stroke, Torrent Elemental being able to tap down their board to get through damage, Downfall to deal with their Ugins, while having our own Ugins etc.
After last FNM and now Game Day, one thing I will be doing is dropping the MB counterspells to up my land count to 26. I've lost too many games from land-screw to sit on my laurels. Maybe 25 will be better, but I'll start at 26. Also, I'm probably going to MB two Crux of Fate - it comes in against so many decks that I might as well just MB it. Thoughtseize will then be next on my list of things to think about. I'm still going to stick with 2-2 Dig/Cruise combo, because I've often gotten frustrated by the UU needed for Dig, but there's a certain depressing inevitability about 4 Dig becoming the ultimate resolution.
In terms of Reality Shift, I can't help but feel that card just isn't worth it in any list that has access to black - because black just has plain good actual removal.
BTW, I'm starting to think we should maybe just take our discussions to the Sultai Control thread, seeing we are heading in that direction. I still love our lists more than more Fabiano-style lists though.
4x Ainok Guide
4x Embodiment of Spring
3x Marang River Prowler
1x Rakshasa Deathdealer
2x Sagu Mauler
2x Temur Sabertooth
4x Whisperer of the Wilds
Enchantment (2)
1x Frontier Siege
1x Sultai Ascendancy
Instant (2)
2x Sultai Charm
Artifact (4)
4x Sultai Banner
2x Shamanic Revelation
1x Treasure Cruise
1x Villainous Wealth
3x Write into Being
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Land (22)
4x Dismal Backwater
3x Forest
3x Island
4x Jungle Hollow
3x Opulent Palace
1x Swamp
4x Thornwood Falls
3x Archers of Qarsi
3x Jeskai Sage
4x Map the Wastes
3x Refocus
2x Ugin's Construct
Yes, it's a Block Constructed, due to me being crazy. Also, I saw three Portuguese Alt Ugins in hands of one person... how hard should I hate the bastard?
Forum Set Make!
(W/B)(U/R)(B/G)(R/W)(G/U)Mornad Broken (Active)(W/B)(U/R)(B/G)(R/W)(G/U)
My decks:
(R/G)Atarka, the Beastly Dragon Call (EDH)(R/G)
And again on Reality Shift, it can kill dragonform indestructible Sarkhan, which absolutely wrecked me, and yeah Hero's Downfall can kill him when he's not +1ed, but if they're running Elspeths and Sorins too then it's not a bad deal. And it permanently gets rid of both recurring Phoenix cards, which can easily be a headache for us. It's definitely just a sideboard card, but there's enough cards that kill spells don't adequately deal with that I think it's worth having. And even if I side it in against red and they don't play those cards, it's a solid play against Stormbreath and Rabblemaster and it's easier to have the mana open for it to hit them before they hit us. And against the Boros decks that are becoming fairly popular, it doesn't care if they Valorous Stance their Monastery Mentor against a kill spell, which really hurts us. I really think it's great tech against decks running red but agree that black is superior otherwise.
Not sure how I feel about Crux in the main. It's good, but most of the games where I really needed a board wipe, it's too late for me to recover by turn 5. Like I've won several games now where if I had drawn a Crux of Fate instead of Drown in Sorrow I almost certainly would have lost. I think it's best against mono G devotion and Abzan decks that take a little longer to get going, but my meta is way more aggro focused. If your meta is more midrange, it is definitely the smart move, though.
It may make sense to move to the control thread, but I feel like they play extremely differently. His deck tries to control the board with counters and removal and we try to control the board with a mix of value creatures and removal, and I also like your list (I'd love to call it our lists but you made the core that I've just tweaked to my tastes) way better.
You have so much ramp and only four cards worth ramping into. I would take out like half the ramp and put in more Ugins and Villainous Wealths and probably some more card draw so you can actually make sure you get your threats.
Forum Set Make!
(W/B)(U/R)(B/G)(R/W)(G/U)Mornad Broken (Active)(W/B)(U/R)(B/G)(R/W)(G/U)
My decks:
(R/G)Atarka, the Beastly Dragon Call (EDH)(R/G)
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Hornet Queen
2 Torrent Elemental
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
2 Bile Blight
2 Crux of Fate
3 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Frontier Siege
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
I ended up biting the bullet and dropping my 4th Tasigurs and Sultai Charms, to let me MB Blights. I feel dirty, but I guess its probably the right choice. I went 2-0 against UW Heroic and two UB Controls. My anti-control sideboard plan worked a charm, this is what I packed:
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Feed the Clans
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
2 Rakshasa, Deathdealer
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
I basically wanted to try out a bunch of SB cards, focusing on taking out my archenemy, control decks. Worked out very well! This is what I did against control:
-2 Frontier Siege
-1 Murderous Cut
-1 Hero's Downfall
-2 Bile Blight
-2 Crux of Fate
-1 Sultai Charm
-2 Satyr Wayfinder
+2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
+2 Whisperwood Elemental
+1 Nissa, Worldwaker
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+1 Negate
+2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
+1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Basically, I dramatically increased my threat density to sculpt my deck to a point where I am presenting them with something they must answer every turn. Yet I still have a few counterspells to get in their way, draw spells to keep up and Ugins in the super-late game. It worked brilliantly, both control decks struggled for mana in the Game Ones, so I was able to sneak wins - and then I absolutely rolled them in both G2s. Resolving a Deathdealer, Ashiok, Tasigur, Whisperwood or Nissa and having it stick around for more than a turn is big, big game against them. Meanwhile, Torrent Elemental just keeps chipping away. Silumgar is in my SB for tokens, but I thought I might as well chuck him in out of the board too, just to add another threat.
My loss of the night came against RW Aggro. Game One was a blow, as I kept a risky two lander and then missed on my Wayfinder and never really got in the game. G2 I mulliganed into a nice six and the game went fairly as you'd expect. After staving off his early plays with removal, I stabilised with a big Tasigur + Feed the Clans turn and then controlled the game into Silumgar, Hornet Queen and then Ugin. G3 was much like game one, unfortunately, just got beaten up and killed on turn 5. Usually I like the RW Aggro matchup, as I find most games go like the second, but tonight wasn't the night.
Beating Heroic was surprisingly easier than I thought. I even won off a mulligan to 5, albeit, he didn't seem to draw God's Willing or Feat of Resistance that game. Next game I was able to resolve Ugin (thanks to some Feed the Clans stalling), play around his God's Willing/Defiant-Strikes by -2ing instead of +2ing his dudes away until he ran out of them, and then proceeded to win.
Overall, I really liked my sideboard today. Being able to deal so handily with control is what I've been trying to figure out for a while. Whisperwood Elemental is probably the most questionable card, but he didn't come up in any games today unfortunately so I wasn't able to see him out. But I have high hopes for the guy. I plan to bring him in against any grindy matchups, as he can get out of control.
Thoughtseize is the final card that I feel like I should be playing, but haven't gotten around to using yet. I think I'll start with two of them MB over the two Crux of Fate at my next standard tourney, and move Crux to the SB dropping Silumgar (he did really well in his one appearance tonight, but I still can't help but feel he might be too slow) and a Disdainful Stroke.
4 polluted delta
2 temple of malady
2 temple of deciet
1 temple of mystery
3 oppulent palace
2 llanowar wastes
1 yavimya coast
4 dismal backwater
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 island
2 swamp
Creatures
1 silumgar, the drifting death
1 pearl lake ancient
Planeswalkers
2 ashiok, nightmare weaver
2 kiora, the crashing wave
1 garruk, apex predator
2 ugin, the spirit dragon
3 dissolve
3 crux of fate
3 bile blight
4 hero's downfall
2 sultai charm
4 dig through time
1 enhanced awareness
2 disdainful stroke
1 murderous cut
1 villainous weath
2 despise
1 liliana vess
2 Drown in sorrow
2 rakshasa deathdealer
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 feed the clan
1 silence the believers
2 negate
2 pharika's cure
1 sultai charm
Won against: jeskai tokens/outpost seige and abzan midrange
Draw against: temur midrange
Lost against: 5 color jank deck (underworld cerberus, siege rhino, stormbreath, etc..) ran out of time on the third game.
Literally speaking, this is a U/B control splashing green for the walkers, charms and weath.
A lot of people ask why no thoughtseize? I used it before and found it tended to drain me too quickly so I switched it out for despise since it still hits walkers and creatures (like rhino and stormbreath), other spells just counter em.
Villainous weath, this has been a pet tech card of mine and everytime I use it I manage to hit a lot of cards even if I cast it for five, but ideally I use it late game for 8 as it hits everything except lands. Awesome card if you ask me.
Seeing the cards for dtk, I get a lot of mix emotions on how to go forward with the deck, but for sure I'Ll be finding room for anticipate and maybe a spot on the side for the new silumgar.
How bout you guys, how are you changing your lists post DTK?