I've been playing it a bit today and think it's great. Jace isn't awesome here without Gather the Pack, but it's still a good card that lets you filter a little quicker.
Faithful is really just perfect.
Jaces main purpose is to dump bad combo pieces and be something we can company into to rally. Its hilarious how busted faithful is in this deck. Makes Liliana's minus 1 unsummon, beats hangarback, reuses wayfinders, Saves 2 creatures from exile if you do not have a husk, keeps jeskai off balance (bounce Jace turn 2 is strong), gives some more interaction instant speed with company, Blocks really well, the list goes on.
My experience testing against Jeskai was that their Jace didn't really do anything at least game one. Since most aren't playing any counterspells, you can just go for the combo kill and they can't really do much about it. Flashing back a burn spell is alright, I guess, but hardly something to be concerned with.
If Jace was Merfolk looter I would still bounce it. I played Jeskai 4 times at the invi and bounced Jace twice and got rewarded. The thought process is that we do not interact with Jace well, so they can rely on Jace to filter their draws. He kept 5 lands (2 scry), Jace and mantis Rider. I bounced Jace, made him sac Jace and he drew 2 more lands and 4 irrelevant spells before he died.
I've been playing it a bit today and think it's great. Jace isn't awesome here without Gather the Pack, but it's still a good card that lets you filter a little quicker.
Faithful is really just perfect.
Jaces main purpose is to dump bad combo pieces and be something we can company into to rally. Its hilarious how busted faithful is in this deck. Makes Liliana's minus 1 unsummon, beats hangarback, reuses wayfinders, Saves 2 creatures from exile if you do not have a husk, keeps jeskai off balance (bounce Jace turn 2 is strong), gives some more interaction instant speed with company, Blocks really well, the list goes on.
My experience testing against Jeskai was that their Jace didn't really do anything at least game one. Since most aren't playing any counterspells, you can just go for the combo kill and they can't really do much about it. Flashing back a burn spell is alright, I guess, but hardly something to be concerned with.
If Jace was Merfolk looter I would still bounce it. I played Jeskai 4 times at the invi and bounced Jace twice and got rewarded. The thought process is that we do not interact with Jace well, so they can rely on Jace to filter their draws. He kept 5 lands (2 scry), Jace and mantis Rider. I bounced Jace, made him sac Jace and he drew 2 more lands and 4 irrelevant spells before he died.
Fair enough - I merely meant that Jeskai seemed like a deck that this matches up very well with. They really struggle to interact in a meaningful way with anything Rally is trying to do.
Last weekend when I saw the Forge Rally list that skipped the Husk kill and instead ran 4 Purphoros with thopter producers, I thought, "Huh, do I even need husk?" Then I tweaked my list into the following and took FNM tonight against Esper Dragons, Abzan Aggro, and Mono White Devotion. Obviously not proven and there's certainly a lot of junk in this list, but it was super fun.
Last weekend when I saw the Forge Rally list that skipped the Husk kill and instead ran 4 Purphoros with thopter producers, I thought, "Huh, do I even need husk?" Then I tweaked my list into the following and took FNM tonight against Esper Dragons, Abzan Aggro, and Mono White Devotion. Obviously not proven and there's certainly a lot of junk in this list, but it was super fun.
Not gonna lie, I am really not a fan of these kinda lists. You have no plan B, you are on combo or bust.I tried a list very close to this and the fact that you cannot play a fair game of magic really hurts. You took out all the best cards (Company, Liliana, Haruspex) and replaced them with lifegain and gather the pack.
I could be wrong of course but I feel like these kinda lists are a step backwards from where we are today.
I see what you mean surf. The life-gainers are cheap thrills, and serve just to stall until the win. Its possible the spots would be better as stronger cards, but the "fair" plan for the deck is to just cast a Purphoros and continue with stall creatures.Personally I think a strong fair plan goes out when Deathmist Raptor leaves the deck.
I enjoyed winning with Purphoros rather than Husk+Marauder. It was just easier and much more frequently available. Making the choice to go with Purphoros I think forces Collected Company out of the list. I've always enjoyed Gather the Pack though, as it is so strong with Jace, both finding it and putting flashback rallies into the yard, plus it does so quickly.
I see what you mean surf. The life-gainers are cheap thrills, and serve just to stall until the win. Its possible the spots would be better as stronger cards, but the "fair" plan for the deck is to just cast a Purphoros and continue with stall creatures.Personally I think a strong fair plan goes out when Deathmist Raptor leaves the deck.
I enjoyed winning with Purphoros rather than Husk+Marauder. It was just easier and much more frequently available. Making the choice to go with Purphoros I think forces Collected Company out of the list. I've always enjoyed Gather the Pack though, as it is so strong with Jace, both finding it and putting flashback rallies into the yard, plus it does so quickly.
I agree with Jace being good with Pack. I disagree with the deck losing a fair plan once Raptor is gone. Game 1 with my list the fair plan is difficult, possible, but difficult. You can still play a carytid into a company that hits liliana and a sac dude killing their courser or soulfire. From there playing medium creatures/trading creatures with haruspx/ using Jace to flashback companies is a valid fair plan.
Game 2 however I normally go full "Fair plan". I bring in Rhinos, sac creatures and the 4th faithful. My gameplan from there is to be a boardcontrol deck that pecks at them with 1/1's and 3/1's finally ending the game with husk and Rhino (alot of the time rally is not even involved).
Basically what I am saying is that cutting Liliana is a mistake. The card is STUPID good. Like modern playable good. For the invi I wanted to play the best liliana deck and this was by far it. Games with Liliana and games without are not even remotely the same. Everytime I flipped the card during the invitational my opponents groaned. If you have not guessed yet, I really like Liliana.
Guys, re: Deathmist Raptor and rotation, I'm pretty sure competitive forum rules indicate no new card or post-rotation discussion until after Wizards has posted the FULL spoiler of the new set. I'm just telling you so a moderator doesn't have to...
As for Shadowsauce and the Forge Rally list, I think the point of that list is running creatures that make multiple bodies when they enter, like Gearcrafter and Thopter Engineer. If you're not maximizing bodies per rally I don't think you're getting all the value out of Purphoros that you should be. Have you considered adding a couple Impact Tremors as a way to improve your odds of getting the combo? They're obviously not as strong as Big P but having two of them means you have six copies of some sort of combo-out. By running 4 Thopter Engineer, 4 Gearcrafter, possibly even Hangarbacks and Chiefs of the Foundry, you add the potential for a hasty thopter swing to add to your Purphoros hit. (If your Rally brings back a Chief of the Foundry your Hangarbacks will survive as 1/1's; either way they will trigger Purphoros or Tremors.) And getting Hangarbacks in the yard pre-rally is as easy as 0-casting them if you need. Hangarbacks also give you another relevant two-drop. Finally, running all eight 3-drop thopter-makers plus Tremors gives you a realistic chance of turning on devotion so Purphoros can swing too. Just a few thoughts!
I know the Clerics and Jaces seem tempting but honestly I think Purphoros really wants a thopter rush to be maximally effective.
P.S. shouldn't it really be "Rally Forge", not "Forge Rally"? Better name since it rhymes with "Valley Forge", at least to the history nerd in me.
P.P.S. Unrelated topic - does this deck have any prayer against U/R Tutelage or is that just a lost matchup? I mean, the combination of Anger of the Gods plus Negates for our Rallies, plus our own deck just feeds their mill with Wayfinders... brutal. Is that matchup saveable or should we write it off as hopeless and focus on improving other matchups?
I like the multiple bodies off the engineers and gearcrafters; not only do they double count for kills (triple with a haste attack), but they can get in early damage or chump block a flyer which are both things the deck can struggle with. To play them I would replace the 7 clerics, but I couldn't find any room for Chiefs. This led me to settle on the stall plan rather than the quicker combo plan.
Aaaannnnnndddddd my buddy just won a PPTQ with my 75 (the actual cards, I let him borrow them). He played 1 FNM before the event and crushed it with Ease. Deck is nuts.
I guess as long as Hushwing Griff doesn't see increased sideboard usage, this deck is a real good choice!
There's a much nastier SB card but much more narrow so less likely to face it: Hallowed Moonlight. Crushes CoCo, Rally, all token makers, Deathmist Raptor too. I'm amazed more people aren't boarding it. If Rally takes off in a big way, expect to start seeing this card. It's a beating, it's to this deck what Back to Nature is to Constellation.
tested a bit with surfkatt's version in the weekend as I am taking to a GPT this week.
I did have some concerns vs UBx against early ashioks but the match up appeared actually not bad went 6-2 sideboarded, one loss was getting decked.
@surfkatt I am currently short 1 jace, what would you recommend in that slot
Thats tough because Jace is very powerful. You could go a couple ways with it. Den protector if you want a similar recursive ability (I don't really like it though, to weak with company and to expensive). Elvish visionary is you want a consistently fine creature. Gather the pack is an option because Jace's main goal is to feed and flashback Rally and it does half of that. I would probably stick with either a gather the pack or another edict creature. I find I almost always want more edicts but I never really knew what to cut. With the rise of Esper Dragons Sac creatures get even better (especially because they play jace now too).
I spoke with my friend the won the PPTQ with it and a few other people and we all agreed to cut a Visionary for a Caves of kolios. While the deck might not NEED another land, we had a few more 1 land hands than we liked. Other than that the deck stays the same until rotation. I am looking to work on it for post rotation because I do not have any events before than that are standard.
I agree with adding a land. The I was often searching for that double white.or double black
While only talking about current cards. Post rotation I am thinking of starting this based around the 5c rally deck. That did well at a go. Mainly because Mantis rider and knuckle blade are both hastable as well as being solid in their own right..
played surfkatt's list with the +1 land -1 visionary, changed the sb -1 flesh bag -1 executioner +2 abzans charms as I expected to see a lot of anafenza.
r1 jeskai 2-0
r2 UB control 1-1
r3 abzan control 0-2
g1 I put him on abzan aggro and would have mulliganed if I thought he was playing control. This game and second game deck ran really cold. Turn 3 I collected company to get some pressure on the board only to get a flesh bag and 5 lands , then turn 4 I double wayfinder hitting zero lands
r4 abzan aggro 2-0
I was able to control anafenzan g1 and had a really good curve and g2 he only found 1 anafenzan which i abzan charmed
r5 UG coco assault formation 2-1
this deck can kill really fast if you are not able to control the board well or deal with assault formation
won g1 easily, g2 and 3 both close. This is one game where having the 2 extra sac creatures in the board would have been handy.
top 4
r6 UB control with perilous vaults 2-0
g1 I mulled to 6 on the draw. My 1st few turns draw made my hand really bad, by turn 5 I had 3 coco and 4 rally as my hand. I missed land drop on turn 3 and had no pressure against his t3 ashiok after he had siezed my wayfinder on t2. but it worked out surprising well and I killed him with 3 cards left in my libary.
g2 I had to grind down 2 ashioks but eventually managed to get there.
r7 finals not going to the GP so conceeded as opponent is.
now full spoilers are out , can we discuss after rotation?
maybe 4C with elves and the new blood artist lite Zulaport Cutthroat? can be not so worried about actually attacking and just drain people out.
The way the removal is creatures like mantis rider are going to be in a sweet spot.
If Jace was Merfolk looter I would still bounce it. I played Jeskai 4 times at the invi and bounced Jace twice and got rewarded. The thought process is that we do not interact with Jace well, so they can rely on Jace to filter their draws. He kept 5 lands (2 scry), Jace and mantis Rider. I bounced Jace, made him sac Jace and he drew 2 more lands and 4 irrelevant spells before he died.
Fair enough - I merely meant that Jeskai seemed like a deck that this matches up very well with. They really struggle to interact in a meaningful way with anything Rally is trying to do.
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Arashin Cleric
4 Cleric of the Forward Order
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Gather the Pack
4 Rally the Ancestors
3 Frontier Bivouac
1 Temple of Plenty
4 Mana Confluence
2 Yavimaya Coast
3 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Reality Shift
4 Impact Tremors
Not gonna lie, I am really not a fan of these kinda lists. You have no plan B, you are on combo or bust.I tried a list very close to this and the fact that you cannot play a fair game of magic really hurts. You took out all the best cards (Company, Liliana, Haruspex) and replaced them with lifegain and gather the pack.
I could be wrong of course but I feel like these kinda lists are a step backwards from where we are today.
I enjoyed winning with Purphoros rather than Husk+Marauder. It was just easier and much more frequently available. Making the choice to go with Purphoros I think forces Collected Company out of the list. I've always enjoyed Gather the Pack though, as it is so strong with Jace, both finding it and putting flashback rallies into the yard, plus it does so quickly.
I agree with Jace being good with Pack. I disagree with the deck losing a fair plan once Raptor is gone. Game 1 with my list the fair plan is difficult, possible, but difficult. You can still play a carytid into a company that hits liliana and a sac dude killing their courser or soulfire. From there playing medium creatures/trading creatures with haruspx/ using Jace to flashback companies is a valid fair plan.
Game 2 however I normally go full "Fair plan". I bring in Rhinos, sac creatures and the 4th faithful. My gameplan from there is to be a boardcontrol deck that pecks at them with 1/1's and 3/1's finally ending the game with husk and Rhino (alot of the time rally is not even involved).
Basically what I am saying is that cutting Liliana is a mistake. The card is STUPID good. Like modern playable good. For the invi I wanted to play the best liliana deck and this was by far it. Games with Liliana and games without are not even remotely the same. Everytime I flipped the card during the invitational my opponents groaned. If you have not guessed yet, I really like Liliana.
As for Shadowsauce and the Forge Rally list, I think the point of that list is running creatures that make multiple bodies when they enter, like Gearcrafter and Thopter Engineer. If you're not maximizing bodies per rally I don't think you're getting all the value out of Purphoros that you should be. Have you considered adding a couple Impact Tremors as a way to improve your odds of getting the combo? They're obviously not as strong as Big P but having two of them means you have six copies of some sort of combo-out. By running 4 Thopter Engineer, 4 Gearcrafter, possibly even Hangarbacks and Chiefs of the Foundry, you add the potential for a hasty thopter swing to add to your Purphoros hit. (If your Rally brings back a Chief of the Foundry your Hangarbacks will survive as 1/1's; either way they will trigger Purphoros or Tremors.) And getting Hangarbacks in the yard pre-rally is as easy as 0-casting them if you need. Hangarbacks also give you another relevant two-drop. Finally, running all eight 3-drop thopter-makers plus Tremors gives you a realistic chance of turning on devotion so Purphoros can swing too. Just a few thoughts!
I know the Clerics and Jaces seem tempting but honestly I think Purphoros really wants a thopter rush to be maximally effective.
P.S. shouldn't it really be "Rally Forge", not "Forge Rally"? Better name since it rhymes with "Valley Forge", at least to the history nerd in me.
P.P.S. Unrelated topic - does this deck have any prayer against U/R Tutelage or is that just a lost matchup? I mean, the combination of Anger of the Gods plus Negates for our Rallies, plus our own deck just feeds their mill with Wayfinders... brutal. Is that matchup saveable or should we write it off as hopeless and focus on improving other matchups?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Also, Impact Tremors are in the board.
There's a much nastier SB card but much more narrow so less likely to face it: Hallowed Moonlight. Crushes CoCo, Rally, all token makers, Deathmist Raptor too. I'm amazed more people aren't boarding it. If Rally takes off in a big way, expect to start seeing this card. It's a beating, it's to this deck what Back to Nature is to Constellation.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
tested a bit with surfkatt's version in the weekend as I am taking to a GPT this week.
I did have some concerns vs UBx against early ashioks but the match up appeared actually not bad went 6-2 sideboarded, one loss was getting decked.
@surfkatt I am currently short 1 jace, what would you recommend in that slot
Thats tough because Jace is very powerful. You could go a couple ways with it. Den protector if you want a similar recursive ability (I don't really like it though, to weak with company and to expensive). Elvish visionary is you want a consistently fine creature. Gather the pack is an option because Jace's main goal is to feed and flashback Rally and it does half of that. I would probably stick with either a gather the pack or another edict creature. I find I almost always want more edicts but I never really knew what to cut. With the rise of Esper Dragons Sac creatures get even better (especially because they play jace now too).
I spoke with my friend the won the PPTQ with it and a few other people and we all agreed to cut a Visionary for a Caves of kolios. While the deck might not NEED another land, we had a few more 1 land hands than we liked. Other than that the deck stays the same until rotation. I am looking to work on it for post rotation because I do not have any events before than that are standard.
Cheers
I agree with adding a land. The I was often searching for that double white.or double black
While only talking about current cards. Post rotation I am thinking of starting this based around the 5c rally deck. That did well at a go. Mainly because Mantis rider and knuckle blade are both hastable as well as being solid in their own right..
r1 jeskai 2-0
r2 UB control 1-1
r3 abzan control 0-2
g1 I put him on abzan aggro and would have mulliganed if I thought he was playing control. This game and second game deck ran really cold. Turn 3 I collected company to get some pressure on the board only to get a flesh bag and 5 lands , then turn 4 I double wayfinder hitting zero lands
r4 abzan aggro 2-0
I was able to control anafenzan g1 and had a really good curve and g2 he only found 1 anafenzan which i abzan charmed
r5 UG coco assault formation 2-1
this deck can kill really fast if you are not able to control the board well or deal with assault formation
won g1 easily, g2 and 3 both close. This is one game where having the 2 extra sac creatures in the board would have been handy.
top 4
r6 UB control with perilous vaults 2-0
g1 I mulled to 6 on the draw. My 1st few turns draw made my hand really bad, by turn 5 I had 3 coco and 4 rally as my hand. I missed land drop on turn 3 and had no pressure against his t3 ashiok after he had siezed my wayfinder on t2. but it worked out surprising well and I killed him with 3 cards left in my libary.
g2 I had to grind down 2 ashioks but eventually managed to get there.
r7 finals not going to the GP so conceeded as opponent is.
now full spoilers are out , can we discuss after rotation?
maybe 4C with elves and the new blood artist lite Zulaport Cutthroat? can be not so worried about actually attacking and just drain people out.
The way the removal is creatures like mantis rider are going to be in a sweet spot.
4 Beastcaller Savant
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Mantis Rider
3 Butcher of the Horde
4 Siege Rhino
2 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Rally the Ancestors
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Prairie Stream
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Glade
1 Canopy Vista
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Evolving Wilds