Although the Temur Ascendancy combo was working well before Fate Reforged (I won a lot of FNMs with it!), the Temur Sabertooth pushed it over the top as the perfect card for this combo.
The opinions on this deck are split between these two versions. There is the straight combo version, generally represented by the presence of Karametra's Acolyte (Joey Page's version) and the aggro/midrange version (played by Mr. Toepfner) which relies on Nykthos/Voyaging Satyr to create the combo note that both versions must create 7 mana before they are able to create nearly infinite amounts of mana.
And, although these decks did well, there is planty of room for innovation as this is a solid, easy to assemble combo that can win in the midst of playing a normal devotion strategy.
With all three in play and enough other cards to reach 7 green devotion, you can return the Acolyte to your hand and replay it as many times as you want, netting 1 green mana each time, for infinite mana.
Attack with all your creatures being infinite in size with trample with Nylea, God of the Hunt
Cast an infinite size Craters Claw or Villainous Wealth (splashing black).
and MUCH MUCH MORE!
In addition, the Temur Sabretooth can do crazy stuff on it's own as it just needs 1G to bounce any creature (except itself), but bouncing a creature then renders it indestructible. It can return a manifested creature to your hand (virtual card draw with Whisperwood Elemental). And bouncing and replaying any 4-power creature with a Temur Ascendancy in play will draw you a card. Also, bouncing/replaying an Eidolon draws you a card each time and with sufficient mana, you can easily negate almost any targeted removal and even recover from board wipes.
I ran a version of this deck in a PPTQ over the weekend that did not run the Mystics and instead ran more four power creatures, and, although I started out 2-0, the deck just died to mana screw and mana flood the rest of the way. Worst luck of my Magic life, but it happens. To combat this, I realized the Mystics were critical to the deck. Not only do they allow for a turn 2 Temur Ascendancy, they are free devotion with an Ascendancy in play and with a Purphoros in play, along with a Sabertooth, I feel they are critical to the success of the deck.
Big thanks to Joey Page for mentioning MTG Salvation, and to lajube and Deathtouch_Roadrunner for all their posts and comments from the previous thread.
Good start. You should correct the link to the deck tech.
Clearly mystics aren't "needed" as Joey Page did well without them, and I have had reasonable success as well. But I presently agree that more elves is good, as it makes the deck more consistent at getting to the 4-mana guys in time.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
some use voyaging satyr, why not just go for kiora's follower, can get a lot of mana even without nykthos just with acolyte + follower.
I haven't played this yet. But you have to balance the advantage of untapping creatures against the significantly harder mana cost. It is critical that your mana dork can be playe don turn 2, and the blue requirement could be hard to ensure that early in the game.
Good start. You should correct the link to the deck tech.
Clearly mystics aren't "needed" as Joey Page did well without them, and I have had reasonable success as well. But I presently agree that more elves is good, as it makes the deck more consistent at getting to the 4-mana guys in time.
Fixed the link, thanks.
Regarding Mystics, this deck has to be fast, unless you want to switch to a more controlling version. Hence why the Mystics are needed. The deck that placed 11th did run them and, after my terrible mana day with this deck, I feel they are needed.
i like this deck idea
but guess i would cut the hornet queen for a 4th eidolon. u dont really need the queen, but the eidolon can help u draw ur combo pieces together
Not a bad suggestion. You are right, it's not needed and the Eidolon can get you the cards you need to go off. Thanks!
Would trying to add some redundancy with cards like Thassa's Ire and Verdant Haven or even Dictate of Karametra be worth looking into? Even if you can't go infinite, another way of squeezing out extra mana to push over the top sounds handy. (Of course, there are only so many card slots.)
I just want to play this deck after watching the guy in the Deck Tech lol..
Temur Ascendancy: We get Fedora's lol
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
Anyway, I put a ton of time into optimizing the goldfish of my deck. Mainly, I upped the amount of draw, so you rarely run out of cards to play out. The following list nearly always does infinite damage between turns 5 and 8. It also is fairly robust against removal. (In a test case, I went from a T5 End Hostilities to a T8 combo out. All the card draw keeps my hand stocked.)
He cut the Communes and Nylea's Disciple from the main, and (good move) put planeswalkers in the sideboard.
Cutting Commune reduces the combo consistency (mitigated by having more of the combo pieces), but makes for a faster board presence otherwise.
Myself, I'm looking to try Elvish Mystic in place of Commune, which will increase the speed and consistency of hitting four drops, but decrease the reliability of finding all the pieces. On the plus side, Elf will expand Genesis Hydras, and enables the "combo" of Temur Sabertooth+Elvish Mystic= 1G: block 2 giant creatures without dying to either, or 1G: attack with Sabertooth into a swarm of weenies without dying.
Is a straight gr version of this deck with Hammer of Purphoros worth looking into? You'll be down to 2 colors, hence a slightly better manabase but lacking an untapped dual. Is the card draw from Ascendancy THAT good?
Is a straight gr version of this deck with Hammer of Purphoros worth looking into? You'll be down to 2 colors, hence a slightly better manabase but lacking an untapped dual. Is the card draw from Ascendancy THAT good?
Well I think the issue here is, once you get infinite mana what exactly are you going to do with it? There will be games where you can go infinite, but might not have the powerhouse cards in hand to make use of the mana. Pass the turn only to find your infinite mana taken away by a removal spell that you can't deal with.
With Temur Ascendency, if you don't have the outlet for the infinite many in your hand, you can just use that mana to bounce and return a 4 power critter as many times as you like until you have what you need.
Of course, there is the possibility that you won't be able to do that either and have to pass the turn anyways since Sabertooth can't bounce itself.
A straight G/R version with the hammer is certainly worth looking into though. There are other ways to draw cards like Eidolon of Blossoms and Shamanic Revelation.
Card draw is what makes you go off, just playing a G-Hydra into a Polukranos and attacking is fine, but the potential for more is what makes this list stand out. Personally I don't really like "janky" cards like Karametra's Acolyte and Singing Bell Strike, and I've had reasonable success with the deck without those two cards, just getting G-Hydra+ Fatty and drawing 2 and instantly hitting for 10 or more works ok on its own. I get why those cards are in the deck, but I'm looking towards other options myself. Voyaging Satyr + Temur Sabretooth should work just as well as Acolyte + Sabertooth most of the time, and Satyr seems better on its own t2-t4, for just untapping a land. Losing the jank might open up slots for maindeck counterspells or removal, which I think the deck kind of needs. Maybe even add some card draw to make sure you find the Ascendancy on time.
That's not a bad idea, provided you understand the implications. Nykthos is not searchable with Genesis Hydra, so you have to rely on drawing it. Removing Acolyte reduces the probability of comboing in the early to mid game from 85% to 35%, and removing Bell Strike reduces it even more. Now you have to have Nykthos+Satyr+Sabertooth+Ascendancy+some other stuff to combo, and all the other possibilities are gone. Which is fine if your replacements provide good value. Given that, I think a better plan is to go for a solid green devotion deck: more big creatures. Indeed, this is exactly what Mark Toepfner used to get 11th at SCG.
OP: Please include Nythkos as part of the 4 key cards since there is no combo without it. In my experience finding a Nythkos at a key time can be a real pain. You need some kind of non-basic land fetch to help out with consistency.
I've tested a lot of these cards. My ratings:
('A' cards for this deck are like Polukranos and Ascendancy).
Kruphix's Insight - D. don't play it. You need a lot more enchantments before it's better than Commune. In fact, you'll often cast it and find 0.
Commune - B+. see the list I quoted above. It's good.
Arbor Colossus - B-. it's not a game ender, but it's very strong against flyers.
Hornet Queen - B. Genesis Hydra sometimes balks at trying to get 9 mana, but otherwise it's all-round value.
Bow of Nylea - C. Deathtouch and lifegain have value, but not being a body is a downside in the early game.
Knuckleblade - C. Much better in a non-devotion deck. Here it's hard to cast and low devotion. You might try Reverent Hunter.
Crater's Claws - B. good removal, and a finisher, but no devotion
Purphoros - B. Never a creature. Dealing 2 damage per creature can win. Pump is hard to do more than 1 or 2, but it can happen.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
OP: Please include Nythkos as part of the 4 key cards since there is no combo without it. In my experience finding a Nythkos at a key time can be a real pain. You need some kind of non-basic land fetch to help out with consistency.
I would, but it's not true. I find the deck goes off all the time without a Nykthos. Acolyte is basically Nykthos 5-8 and can turn the deck on all by itself without Nykthos, plus, you can hit it off a Genesis Hydra, along with either of the other key cards, which ultimately makes it more key than Nykthos. Also, if you depend on Nykthos, then the combo requires a way to untap it, so that makes voyaging satyr required also or even Kiora's Follower.
At this point, it's a three card combo, which relies on the rest of the deck to provide things to do with the crazy things those three cards can do. I don't want to promote this as a 4+ card combo which then also requires the deck to provide more things to go crazy. Three card combos are very workable especially with uncounterable ways to put pieces into play. Four plus card combos are much, much harder to pull off and eat up more deck space.
So, are people just ignoring the fact that the list that got 11th didnt use acolytes, while the list that got 66th did? I'm guessing that the sacrifice for playing acolyte is some degree of consistency. Im currently testing a build somewhere in the middle and it's preforming decently well.
Also, I wonder if anyone else feels as though courser is incredibly underwhelming here. Yes, he's an enchantment for eidolon, yes he has GG for acolyte/nykthos. But I rarely find that he's something I want to be doing on t2/t3 and drawing him late game, when I need an enabler for ascendancy is incredibly frustrating.
I think the main misconception is thinking of this as a combo deck. You don't need acolyte or singing bell strike or kioras follower or commune with the gods. Take a normal mono green devotion deck from theros standard, add ascendancy and sabertooth, and you have a 'plan b' of comboing. arbor colossus > singing bell strike. Hornet queen > karamenta's acolyte.
I think the main misconception is thinking of this as a combo deck. You don't need acolyte or singing bell strike or kioras follower or commune with the gods. Take a normal mono green devotion deck from theros standard, add ascendancy and sabertooth, and you have a 'plan b' of comboing. arbor colossus > singing bell strike. Hornet queen > karamenta's acolyte.
I have to disagree to an extent. Devotion strategies have a "top end" strategy that is not necessarily present here. Note there's only 1 hornet queen in the 11th place build. Devotion builds are pretty slow and and casting a hornet queen on t4 with very little gas afterward is pretty underwhelming (hence the G, RG, and UG builds were all pushed out of the last format). It's pretty rare to not win this deck by not using some infinite/huge mana iteration and t6 at the latest. This goes so much bigger than even the B/G constellation builds it feels pretty incomparable. If I werent comboing out for a win pretty much every game, I would call it a "plan b," but that simply isnt how this deck seems to operate.
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Here is our original thread, which was developed for use with Villainous Wealth: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/576309-best-wealth-deck-ever-introducing-the-temur
It also looks like a copy took 11th place:
Although the Temur Ascendancy combo was working well before Fate Reforged (I won a lot of FNMs with it!), the Temur Sabertooth pushed it over the top as the perfect card for this combo.
The opinions on this deck are split between these two versions. There is the straight combo version, generally represented by the presence of Karametra's Acolyte (Joey Page's version) and the aggro/midrange version (played by Mr. Toepfner) which relies on Nykthos/Voyaging Satyr to create the combo note that both versions must create 7 mana before they are able to create nearly infinite amounts of mana.
And, although these decks did well, there is planty of room for innovation as this is a solid, easy to assemble combo that can win in the midst of playing a normal devotion strategy.
The first deck is based on these three cards:
Temur Ascendancy
Karametra's Acolyte
Temur Sabertooth
With all three in play and enough other cards to reach 7 green devotion, you can return the Acolyte to your hand and replay it as many times as you want, netting 1 green mana each time, for infinite mana.
The second version replaces the Acolyte with Voyaging Satyr and Nykthos, Shrine to Nix.
Both can go infinite with all 3 or four pieces in play.
So, what can you then do with infinite mana?
In addition, the Temur Sabretooth can do crazy stuff on it's own as it just needs 1G to bounce any creature (except itself), but bouncing a creature then renders it indestructible. It can return a manifested creature to your hand (virtual card draw with Whisperwood Elemental). And bouncing and replaying any 4-power creature with a Temur Ascendancy in play will draw you a card. Also, bouncing/replaying an Eidolon draws you a card each time and with sufficient mana, you can easily negate almost any targeted removal and even recover from board wipes.
Here's my take on the deck:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Carytid
4 Temur Sabertooth
4 Genesis Hydra
4 Karametra's Acolyte
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Hornet Queen
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nix
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Mountain
SB TBD
I ran a version of this deck in a PPTQ over the weekend that did not run the Mystics and instead ran more four power creatures, and, although I started out 2-0, the deck just died to mana screw and mana flood the rest of the way. Worst luck of my Magic life, but it happens. To combat this, I realized the Mystics were critical to the deck. Not only do they allow for a turn 2 Temur Ascendancy, they are free devotion with an Ascendancy in play and with a Purphoros in play, along with a Sabertooth, I feel they are critical to the success of the deck.
I'm loving this deck!
Clearly mystics aren't "needed" as Joey Page did well without them, and I have had reasonable success as well. But I presently agree that more elves is good, as it makes the deck more consistent at getting to the 4-mana guys in time.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I haven't played this yet. But you have to balance the advantage of untapping creatures against the significantly harder mana cost. It is critical that your mana dork can be playe don turn 2, and the blue requirement could be hard to ensure that early in the game.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Fixed the link, thanks.
Regarding Mystics, this deck has to be fast, unless you want to switch to a more controlling version. Hence why the Mystics are needed. The deck that placed 11th did run them and, after my terrible mana day with this deck, I feel they are needed.
Not a bad suggestion. You are right, it's not needed and the Eidolon can get you the cards you need to go off. Thanks!
1, forest, mystic
2, forest, mystic, caryatid
3, island, gen hydra for 4 into acolyte
4, Nykthos, Sabertooth, infinity
There are several ways to get there, but in the one you listed, step 4 is Ascendancy, Sabertooth, Infinity..., not Nykthos.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
true that, missed it
Main board:-4 Commune with the Gods, +1 Karametra's Acolyte, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +1 Eidolon of Blossoms, +1 land and a rebuilt mana base.
Side board: +3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave, +3 Nissa, Worldwaker, +2 Hunt the Hunter and -some other cards that don't matter.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Temur Ascendancy: We get Fedora's lol
He cut the Communes and Nylea's Disciple from the main, and (good move) put planeswalkers in the sideboard.
Cutting Commune reduces the combo consistency (mitigated by having more of the combo pieces), but makes for a faster board presence otherwise.
Myself, I'm looking to try Elvish Mystic in place of Commune, which will increase the speed and consistency of hitting four drops, but decrease the reliability of finding all the pieces. On the plus side, Elf will expand Genesis Hydras, and enables the "combo" of Temur Sabertooth+Elvish Mystic= 1G: block 2 giant creatures without dying to either, or 1G: attack with Sabertooth into a swarm of weenies without dying.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Well I think the issue here is, once you get infinite mana what exactly are you going to do with it? There will be games where you can go infinite, but might not have the powerhouse cards in hand to make use of the mana. Pass the turn only to find your infinite mana taken away by a removal spell that you can't deal with.
With Temur Ascendency, if you don't have the outlet for the infinite many in your hand, you can just use that mana to bounce and return a 4 power critter as many times as you like until you have what you need.
Of course, there is the possibility that you won't be able to do that either and have to pass the turn anyways since Sabertooth can't bounce itself.
A straight G/R version with the hammer is certainly worth looking into though. There are other ways to draw cards like Eidolon of Blossoms and Shamanic Revelation.
That's not a bad idea, provided you understand the implications. Nykthos is not searchable with Genesis Hydra, so you have to rely on drawing it. Removing Acolyte reduces the probability of comboing in the early to mid game from 85% to 35%, and removing Bell Strike reduces it even more. Now you have to have Nykthos+Satyr+Sabertooth+Ascendancy+some other stuff to combo, and all the other possibilities are gone. Which is fine if your replacements provide good value. Given that, I think a better plan is to go for a solid green devotion deck: more big creatures. Indeed, this is exactly what Mark Toepfner used to get 11th at SCG.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Shaman of the Great Hunt (another card drawer)
Purphoros, God of the Forge (Win condition)
Satyr Wayfinder(Finds Nykthos!!!)
Xenagos
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
('A' cards for this deck are like Polukranos and Ascendancy).
Kruphix's Insight - D. don't play it. You need a lot more enchantments before it's better than Commune. In fact, you'll often cast it and find 0.
Commune - B+. see the list I quoted above. It's good.
Arbor Colossus - B-. it's not a game ender, but it's very strong against flyers.
Hornet Queen - B. Genesis Hydra sometimes balks at trying to get 9 mana, but otherwise it's all-round value.
Bow of Nylea - C. Deathtouch and lifegain have value, but not being a body is a downside in the early game.
Knuckleblade - C. Much better in a non-devotion deck. Here it's hard to cast and low devotion. You might try Reverent Hunter.
Crater's Claws - B. good removal, and a finisher, but no devotion
Purphoros - B. Never a creature. Dealing 2 damage per creature can win. Pump is hard to do more than 1 or 2, but it can happen.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I would, but it's not true. I find the deck goes off all the time without a Nykthos. Acolyte is basically Nykthos 5-8 and can turn the deck on all by itself without Nykthos, plus, you can hit it off a Genesis Hydra, along with either of the other key cards, which ultimately makes it more key than Nykthos. Also, if you depend on Nykthos, then the combo requires a way to untap it, so that makes voyaging satyr required also or even Kiora's Follower.
At this point, it's a three card combo, which relies on the rest of the deck to provide things to do with the crazy things those three cards can do. I don't want to promote this as a 4+ card combo which then also requires the deck to provide more things to go crazy. Three card combos are very workable especially with uncounterable ways to put pieces into play. Four plus card combos are much, much harder to pull off and eat up more deck space.
Also, I wonder if anyone else feels as though courser is incredibly underwhelming here. Yes, he's an enchantment for eidolon, yes he has GG for acolyte/nykthos. But I rarely find that he's something I want to be doing on t2/t3 and drawing him late game, when I need an enabler for ascendancy is incredibly frustrating.
I have to disagree to an extent. Devotion strategies have a "top end" strategy that is not necessarily present here. Note there's only 1 hornet queen in the 11th place build. Devotion builds are pretty slow and and casting a hornet queen on t4 with very little gas afterward is pretty underwhelming (hence the G, RG, and UG builds were all pushed out of the last format). It's pretty rare to not win this deck by not using some infinite/huge mana iteration and t6 at the latest. This goes so much bigger than even the B/G constellation builds it feels pretty incomparable. If I werent comboing out for a win pretty much every game, I would call it a "plan b," but that simply isnt how this deck seems to operate.