I like Mantle because with Ascendancy out and the combo not in hand it becomes a free Ghastly Discovery that provides extra insurance vs Dromoka's Command. It also lets Caryatid block weenies if you have mana up, and lets you go off from an empty hand. I've almost never been upset to draw it in the months I've been playing this deck. I'm beginning to come around to the opinion of Nyx-Fleece Ram over more fragile dorks like Rattleclaw Mystic, though, especially since they don't die to Seismic Rupture out of the board. Playing both Den Protector/Twinflame and Altar of the Brood seems like a waste of space unless you're facing an inordinate amount of TurboFog.
You can hold up a swan song for an upkeep burn spell with an altar version too, if you only have an additional card in your hand.
Therein lies the rub. It's impossible to determine if it would have mattered or not, but with Dragon Mantle you can win casting Retraction Helix as your last card while with only Briber's Purse we are forced to hold an extra card in hand.
That being said, I don't think it's wrong to cut Dragon Mantle and Twinflame. I like the fact that there are several viable paths with the Jeskai Ascendancy Combo. Playing the combo to suit your personal playing style is best, and I'm glad we can discuss several options.
I look forward to hearing all the results with the combo!
What do you guys think about Narset Trascendent in the sideboard against control decks ? I kinda like the +1 to help us prepairing to a turn 5 - 6 win, and if it goes unanswered her ulti is pretty much a wincon against them.
As I said in the SB options post above, Narset can be useful against control, as you can build the ultimate while generating some CA. What are the UB control players doing against this deck? Counterspells? Disruption? Removal? Maybe Surrak can be good too, it dodges Bile Blight, Ultimate Price and counterspells.
One thing I noted while testing and goldfishing Lee Shi Tian's list (outdated, maybe) is that you can go off in a lot of different ways in various scenarios, and Twinflame is sometimes your wincon if you milled the Altar, or a combo piece (paired with another creature). I don't feel like I need Den Protector if I already have a Twinflame... If I used or milled one, recurring it with Den Protector uses 1 slot that can be easily be another Twinflame. The only adventage I see is regrowthing a destroyed Ascendancy.
I do like kanister's aproach, I don't like "cute things" either, and that leads me to the next question: what's the more effective maindeck configuration?
Edit: Regarding Altar of the Brood, I play 1 (along with 2 Twinflames, as I explained before) to power the turn 3 kill.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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If we are going for a planeswalker alternate win-con, I feel like Kiora would be better than any other option. It offers card advantage, guaranteed, and can stall the game. Also, the ultimate actually wins the game, vs Narset ult being a pseudo-win. Narset is only going to be better when you can guarantee the +1 with a scheming/scry land or if you can rebound a dig through time, and even then you need the dig to resolve, on your turn. It just seems more inconsistent. That having been said, I don't want to give my opponent targets for their hero's downfall so I would rather play a hexproof/resilient creature as my alternate win-con, which is what led me to hooded hydra + Ojutai in my sideboard. I have liked the den protector as most people don't want to kill it before the unmorph because they think it is a rattleclaw. Also, especially in a format where we have to be expecting dromoka's commant in over 1/3 of our matches, dragon mantle just seems like an obvious inclusion as a free can-trip that sometimes can combo. My logic after that is that as long as we are already running mantles, we might as well run twinflame for the synergy and for the hasty combo potential.
If u want to response GW command Swan Song will be better than Mantle. If I have to choose between counter for 1 mana and not always digging in 1 card for 1 mana it would be obvious . Song is better in meta with counterspells and very different hate cards around.
I know this is a token build but I am using the Jeskai Ascendancy as a combo card for me
I am planning on taking this deck to a FNM this week, I am looking for advice. I have never played a jeskai token deck so if you have any advice for matchups and what to look for, that would be greatly appreciated. I have seen other builds online but this is what I have came up with. I wish I had monastery mentor instead of soulfire grand master but I don't have any of them as of right now. I know Goblin rabble master is pretty salty but I am in the same boat with them.
I don't have any access to goblin rabble master, monsatery mentor, Brimaz or ojutai dragon lord.I am going to see if I can make some trade for the mentor or dragon lord.
@fncmtg there's a special thread on Proven section for jeskai builds and it had a lot of discussion about tokens build lately.
@narex456 kiora and narset are very different in what they do, and what you try to do with them. I preffer the +1 of Narset cause it let me fight trough control hand disruption by adding cards to my hand, and i feel like the ult is superior (i prefer to combo out without interaction than putting a few 9/9 tokens and try to win in the combat step)
I like Ojutai a lot in the sideboard, and is something i've been thinking about. I also think that may be worth including Keranos, God of the Storm
I agree that the two planeswalkers do very different things but when I look at them I just see a 4-drop alternate win condition. With that having been said, I prefer kiora over the consistency that it provides. All abilities will always do exactly what you expected them to do when you put them into the deck. That just isn't true with Narset. I will agree that Narset is more powerful if it works out, but the fact that it won't always work out the in a predictable way that I can foresee pushes me towards the more consistent planeswalker.
Narex, after some more playtesting with your list I like how it plays out. I may follow kanister's lead and up the number of untapped lands, however. I am thinking about cutting 1 Monastery and 1 Bivouac for a Shivan Reef and Battlefield Forge for FNM this Friday. My main question is the 2 Silkwrap in the sideboard. Might we be better off with more Magma Sprays or Lightning Strikes or Seismic Rupture in that slot? I say that mostly since your mana base skews a bit more towards red than white.
Also, I think upping the number of maindeck Swan Song's may be correct. Most of the Sultai decks of Sultai Charm main, while a lot of Abzan, GW Deovtion and Heroic decks now feature Dromoka's command main.
I always seem to be bringing a number of Swan Songs in, so maybe just starting with 3 mainboard can be correct? Even against mono red it can catch a burn spell.
I like silkwrap better than the other options for that slot because of heroic and abzan aggro. Against heroic, it gives us a way to kill their big guy after it gets big, and against abzan aggro, it kills fleecemane, rakshasa deathdealer, warden of the first tree, and anafenza, which few removal spells that we can play can do.
I feel uncomfortable cutting green sources from the deck because of how important it is to hit your caryatid but considering there are only 5 maindeck green cards with little more in the sideboard, I could see that being correct.
I could see moving another swan song to the mainboard but I don't know what I would cut. The 4th dig through time is an option, but I would still feel bad about doing it. The other main option is to cut the 4th dragon mantle. I think that this is probably the best bet since I am still unsure that moving it up to 4 was correct.
Edit: I also just realized that that would open up a sideboard slot. I think that I would fill that with another seismic rupture but I am unsure as we do already have a lot of aggro cards in the board. I don't think that it would be worth it to put a mantle in the board. Other options are a 4 mana planeswalker or a hornet nest.
I have ultimately been unimpressed by the hornet nest as I find that they usually either go wide enough that it doesn't matter or they hit me in the air. I feel like I would rather just have a removal spell at that point. About the alternate gameplan vs control, it is not as if we need to commit too much to threaten them with an ojutai. Even if it just draws out a counter spell I am happy with it. It is just another thing that they have to deal with stretching their resources thin. I think of it as a "proactive negate" because the only thing that our negates are doing anyway is disrupting their counterspells. It can be better than a negate however because if they decide not to answer it, it can win the game without the "cute stuff" that ascendancy requires, or even fuel the cuteness that comes with it.
narex, I'm not sure but with only 4 Taigam's Scheming it will be tougher to fill the graveyard for Dig. Doing the math, we probably need to play at least 15 green sources. 15/20=75% of the time, we hit a green source with our first mana source. Of the remaining 25%, 15/19 times it should be a green source or 19.73% of the time. Adding it up we should see a green source 95% of the time with 15 green sources out of 20 (then again, my math may be fuzzy) in our first two mana sources. We'd be really unlucky not to hit a green with 3 mana sources. Good luck at Providence this weekend!
kanister, I think the raw power of Dig Through Time is worth it. One of my favorite plays at GP Memphis was T2 Caryatid, T3 Scheming + EOT Dig, T4 combo. I guess I'm just fond of backup plans. I haven't used Hornet Nest in awhile because most of the mono red decks used Hammerhand or Frenzied Goblin, but now with those falling out of favor Hornet Nest may be the right call again. I'll try out your list either for FNM or Game Day this weekend. Good luck at Krakow!
Good luck to all of you combo pilots this Game Day Weekend. I'll let you know if I win a Sarkhan playmat, ha ha.
Unless I am counting wrong, my most recent list has 14 green sources out of 20 lands. Given your math I should either consider adding another green source, or accept a <95% average for drawing a green source in my first 3 lands. That having been said, even though turn 2 caryatid is the strongest play that this deck has access to, I am fine with those numbers especially considering the fact that a turn 2 blue digging spell (anticipate or scheming) is also an acceptable play, setting up a turn 3 caryatid.
Yeah I read your deck list wrong, and it turns out 14 green sources is pretty strong too. Should hit green source 70% with your first land, then 30 * (14/19) ~ 22, so about 92% of the time you should hit a green with your 2nd mana source.
Kanister's list has 13 green producing lands, so his odds are 65% on the first land, then 35*(13/19) ~ 23 which turns out to be 88% of time hitting a green source on a 2nd land. All in all pretty strong odds.
There's more blue spells than anything in the deck for digging so a minimum of fifteen blue sources seems right.
That being said, it's still a dicey proposition keeping a one lander even if you have combo in hand.
Good evening everyone (7pm here), i want to share with you the main 60s i'm currently testing and a few possible changes that i've been thinking lately. After reading the complete thread twice i put together this cards (the mana base is the same as Lee Shi Tian's deck, i just love the configuration so far):
I have my doubts in the Nyx-Fleece Ram slots and the Dragon Mantle slots. Nyx-Fleece Ram could be either Rattleclaw Mystic (for explosiveness) or maybe switching them into more deck manipulation. Dragon Mantle is the "hard choice". Sometimes they work perfectly (i even won a game or two by making infinite mana and atacking with an enchanted critter for 20+), but sometimes is just the worst card in the deck. I like the fact that can prevent a Dromoka's Command for hurting us bad and the trigger/cantrip effect for only R, but again ... sometimes is SO bad, and i don't want bad cards or circunstancial cards in the deck, i want to maximize consistency. I thought of cutting them for 1 Twinflame (another way to combo out if something go terribly wrong), 1 Taigam's Scheming and 1 Treasure Cruise. Or maybe another tool to get more deck manipulation but that still help me with Ascendancy triggers. Maybe some token generator as Raise the Alarm or Secure the Wastes to fight against aggro decks and Foul-Tongue Invocation ? (that card is seeing a lot of play lately)
Sorry if this is TL:DR but i'm trying to get the best out of the deck.
What if somebody ran the zero-mana artifact plan, and DIDNT RUN GREEN?
I mean, can't the deck combo off without a mana producer? All you really need is any creature, retraction helix, ascendancy, and a zero-mana artifact, right? If the problem is blockers, run a creature that can't be blocked Gudul Lurker seems like it's the best fit.
So, what do we lose dropping green? The resiliency of Caryatid? It can't swing anyway. The mystical turn three win? Does that really happen enough to matter? The digging of Commune? In a list running artifacts and no dragon mantle, it will often whiff and cause us to kill our artifacts.
So , why not drop green?
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In practice, I did try that with red and hasty little red guys. I liked tho idea. Never gave it a lot of crazy though. I'd try it again. It would certainly surprise people.
Well, Ivan Jen is known for piloting Heroic Jeskai Ascendancy if that's something you're interested in. Instead of a 0 mana artifact he runs Springleaf Drum so you can still loop and make your dudes infinitely big.
So I scrubbed out at 2-2-1 at the IQ today. I happened to play UB control in the first round, drew and got put into the control draw bracket. I lost to a UB control playing 4 copies of Self-Inflicted Wound in the sideboard. I also lost to an Esper control that landed T2 Thoughtseize, T3 Duress into a T4 Narset. A Narset emblem a couple of turns later and I was done.
We're caught in the proverbial rock and a hard place. One on side Atarka Red threatens to pound us and on the other UB control is waiting to interact with our hand and combo pieces. Gonna be a tough meta for us until Origins.
Actually, GreyBeta, that's exactly what I was looking for, and I feel so stupid for not seeing it sooner.
I was planning on running Springleaf Drum with Ensoul Artifact that way it's a creature and it untaps, but you can simply USE THE SPRINGLEAF DRUM AS THE "zero mana" ARTIFACT!!! It means keeping two creatures on the board, but it seems like such an excellent plan that has a decent shot at going the creature route too, and actually playing a legit game of magic!! Oh, excellent, excellent.
I feel so dumb for not putting the pieces together sooner, but this is excellent and I'm really not sure why nobody else runs a strategy similar to this.
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One of the issues with cutting green is that you're more susceptible to running out of gas. Yes, the 4 color version has a less consistent manabase wise but you're also chock full of card drawing or card manipulation spells. Going the heroic route means cutting some of those card digging spells for creatures, which has its upsides and downsides. On the plus, being able to win without relying on Caryatid or Ascendancy is nice. On the minus, sometimes they answer your dudes and you're down to drawing off the top without Dig Through Time to get you there.
While I like the heroic idea, I was more talking about the version of the combo running Springleaf drum so you don't need a mana dork, just two normal creatures.
I'm going to try a Jeskai control list running the Springleaf combo.
Which leaves room for 10-14 control and dig spells.
Not sure if this will work out or not, but I have high hopes for it, as this idea kinda takes the best of both worlds and still leaves room for removal spells, which is something the typical combo deck lacks.
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Caryatid is too good to drop it. 80% of time u combo on Caryatid + ascendancy, the rest is sheep. I'm that guy who won trial with Mono Caryatid ascendancy, deck is tier 1 when it has 0/3 wall on turn 2 or 3, without it it is staring to be harder ;p With Birds of Prardise or Noble Hierarch deck would be great. Now it lacks some cosistency, my losses was becouse of red Eidolon or not having Caryatid on turn 2 or 3 in play. Despite 5-3 drop (from 5-0, losses twice to Red aggro with always turn 2 Eidolon and Esper) I would still take it one more time to GP. Deck is good enough to fight everything but mono red with turn 2 Eidolon;p
I sold my caryatids before I started running ascendancy combo. I've done well enough off only ratttleclaws and the occasional Follower. I guess I'm just looking for a different option as I'm tired off my current build and finding caryatids for trade is proving to be difficult.
My current list is a little inconsistent, but then again I'm running chaff like Humble Defector and Refocus (although occasionally drawing five cards off that interaction is GLORIOUS).
Assuming Caryatid wasn't an option, which way would you go with the deck?
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| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Therein lies the rub. It's impossible to determine if it would have mattered or not, but with Dragon Mantle you can win casting Retraction Helix as your last card while with only Briber's Purse we are forced to hold an extra card in hand.
That being said, I don't think it's wrong to cut Dragon Mantle and Twinflame. I like the fact that there are several viable paths with the Jeskai Ascendancy Combo. Playing the combo to suit your personal playing style is best, and I'm glad we can discuss several options.
I look forward to hearing all the results with the combo!
One thing I noted while testing and goldfishing Lee Shi Tian's list (outdated, maybe) is that you can go off in a lot of different ways in various scenarios, and Twinflame is sometimes your wincon if you milled the Altar, or a combo piece (paired with another creature). I don't feel like I need Den Protector if I already have a Twinflame... If I used or milled one, recurring it with Den Protector uses 1 slot that can be easily be another Twinflame. The only adventage I see is regrowthing a destroyed Ascendancy.
I do like kanister's aproach, I don't like "cute things" either, and that leads me to the next question: what's the more effective maindeck configuration?
Edit: Regarding Altar of the Brood, I play 1 (along with 2 Twinflames, as I explained before) to power the turn 3 kill.
I am planning on taking this deck to a FNM this week, I am looking for advice. I have never played a jeskai token deck so if you have any advice for matchups and what to look for, that would be greatly appreciated. I have seen other builds online but this is what I have came up with. I wish I had monastery mentor instead of soulfire grand master but I don't have any of them as of right now. I know Goblin rabble master is pretty salty but I am in the same boat with them.
I don't have any access to goblin rabble master, monsatery mentor, Brimaz or ojutai dragon lord.I am going to see if I can make some trade for the mentor or dragon lord.
4 Seeker of the Way
2 Soulfire Grand Master
Enchantment (4)
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
Instant (20)
2 Anticipate
3 Lightning Strike
2 Ojutai's Command
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Stoke the Flames
3 Wild Slash
3 Dragon Fodder
4 Treasure Cruise
Land (23)
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
3 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 End Hostilities
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Mantis Rider
2 Valorous Stance
@narex456 kiora and narset are very different in what they do, and what you try to do with them. I preffer the +1 of Narset cause it let me fight trough control hand disruption by adding cards to my hand, and i feel like the ult is superior (i prefer to combo out without interaction than putting a few 9/9 tokens and try to win in the combat step)
I like Ojutai a lot in the sideboard, and is something i've been thinking about. I also think that may be worth including Keranos, God of the Storm
Also, I think upping the number of maindeck Swan Song's may be correct. Most of the Sultai decks of Sultai Charm main, while a lot of Abzan, GW Deovtion and Heroic decks now feature Dromoka's command main.
I always seem to be bringing a number of Swan Songs in, so maybe just starting with 3 mainboard can be correct? Even against mono red it can catch a burn spell.
I feel uncomfortable cutting green sources from the deck because of how important it is to hit your caryatid but considering there are only 5 maindeck green cards with little more in the sideboard, I could see that being correct.
I could see moving another swan song to the mainboard but I don't know what I would cut. The 4th dig through time is an option, but I would still feel bad about doing it. The other main option is to cut the 4th dragon mantle. I think that this is probably the best bet since I am still unsure that moving it up to 4 was correct.
Edit: I also just realized that that would open up a sideboard slot. I think that I would fill that with another seismic rupture but I am unsure as we do already have a lot of aggro cards in the board. I don't think that it would be worth it to put a mantle in the board. Other options are a 4 mana planeswalker or a hornet nest.
kanister, I think the raw power of Dig Through Time is worth it. One of my favorite plays at GP Memphis was T2 Caryatid, T3 Scheming + EOT Dig, T4 combo. I guess I'm just fond of backup plans. I haven't used Hornet Nest in awhile because most of the mono red decks used Hammerhand or Frenzied Goblin, but now with those falling out of favor Hornet Nest may be the right call again. I'll try out your list either for FNM or Game Day this weekend. Good luck at Krakow!
Good luck to all of you combo pilots this Game Day Weekend. I'll let you know if I win a Sarkhan playmat, ha ha.
Kanister's list has 13 green producing lands, so his odds are 65% on the first land, then 35*(13/19) ~ 23 which turns out to be 88% of time hitting a green source on a 2nd land. All in all pretty strong odds.
There's more blue spells than anything in the deck for digging so a minimum of fifteen blue sources seems right.
That being said, it's still a dicey proposition keeping a one lander even if you have combo in hand.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Den Protector
3 Briber's Purse
1 Altar of the Brood
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Retraction Helix
3 Commune with the Gods
3 Taigam's Scheming
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
I have my doubts in the Nyx-Fleece Ram slots and the Dragon Mantle slots.
Nyx-Fleece Ram could be either Rattleclaw Mystic (for explosiveness) or maybe switching them into more deck manipulation.
Dragon Mantle is the "hard choice". Sometimes they work perfectly (i even won a game or two by making infinite mana and atacking with an enchanted critter for 20+), but sometimes is just the worst card in the deck. I like the fact that can prevent a Dromoka's Command for hurting us bad and the trigger/cantrip effect for only R, but again ... sometimes is SO bad, and i don't want bad cards or circunstancial cards in the deck, i want to maximize consistency. I thought of cutting them for 1 Twinflame (another way to combo out if something go terribly wrong), 1 Taigam's Scheming and 1 Treasure Cruise. Or maybe another tool to get more deck manipulation but that still help me with Ascendancy triggers. Maybe some token generator as Raise the Alarm or Secure the Wastes to fight against aggro decks and Foul-Tongue Invocation ? (that card is seeing a lot of play lately)
Sorry if this is TL:DR but i'm trying to get the best out of the deck.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Altar of the Brood
3 Briber's Purse
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
3 Dragon Mantle
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Taigam's Scheming
3 Anticipate
4 Retraction Helix
4 Dig Through Time
4 Mana Confluence
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Plenty
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Swan Song
4 Seismic Rupture
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Magma Spray
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Briber's Purse
2 Altar of the Brood
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Taigam's Scheming
3 Commune with the Gods
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
4 Retraction Helix
2 Swan Song
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
2 Frontier Bivouac
3 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Abandon
2 Island
1 Battlefield Forge
2 Swan Song
3 Hornet Nest
4 Seismic Rupture
2 Negate
1 Myth Realized
2 Den Protector
I mean, can't the deck combo off without a mana producer? All you really need is any creature, retraction helix, ascendancy, and a zero-mana artifact, right? If the problem is blockers, run a creature that can't be blocked Gudul Lurker seems like it's the best fit.
So, what do we lose dropping green? The resiliency of Caryatid? It can't swing anyway. The mystical turn three win? Does that really happen enough to matter? The digging of Commune? In a list running artifacts and no dragon mantle, it will often whiff and cause us to kill our artifacts.
So , why not drop green?
About Mindslaver rulings:
So I scrubbed out at 2-2-1 at the IQ today. I happened to play UB control in the first round, drew and got put into the control draw bracket. I lost to a UB control playing 4 copies of Self-Inflicted Wound in the sideboard. I also lost to an Esper control that landed T2 Thoughtseize, T3 Duress into a T4 Narset. A Narset emblem a couple of turns later and I was done.
We're caught in the proverbial rock and a hard place. One on side Atarka Red threatens to pound us and on the other UB control is waiting to interact with our hand and combo pieces. Gonna be a tough meta for us until Origins.
I was planning on running Springleaf Drum with Ensoul Artifact that way it's a creature and it untaps, but you can simply USE THE SPRINGLEAF DRUM AS THE "zero mana" ARTIFACT!!! It means keeping two creatures on the board, but it seems like such an excellent plan that has a decent shot at going the creature route too, and actually playing a legit game of magic!! Oh, excellent, excellent.
I feel so dumb for not putting the pieces together sooner, but this is excellent and I'm really not sure why nobody else runs a strategy similar to this.
About Mindslaver rulings:
I'm going to try a Jeskai control list running the Springleaf combo.
4x ascendancy
4x Springleaf
4x helix
8-12x Creatures
Which leaves room for 10-14 control and dig spells.
Not sure if this will work out or not, but I have high hopes for it, as this idea kinda takes the best of both worlds and still leaves room for removal spells, which is something the typical combo deck lacks.
About Mindslaver rulings:
My current list is a little inconsistent, but then again I'm running chaff like Humble Defector and Refocus (although occasionally drawing five cards off that interaction is GLORIOUS).
Assuming Caryatid wasn't an option, which way would you go with the deck?
About Mindslaver rulings: