This thread is to continue the discussion left off in the previous thread. Grixis has access to disruption, removal, counter magic, card draw, a range of finishers, as well as a good mana base. This thread exists in order to try and make a competitively viable list.
CARD OPTIONS
Key: [Staple] - Great card for us, you should seriously consider running it. [Recommended] - Good card, but there are better options available to us. [Not Recommended] - Not very good, unless your build is very different. [Sideboard] - A sideboard card that you should try to run depending on your meta.
Creatures:
[Staple]Prognostic Sphinx: It's no Ætherling, but it has evasion, can dodge removal, and smoothen out your draws. One of the best finishers available to us. Run 1-2. [Staple]Keranos, God of Storms: Just provides a lot of card advantage. Gives you an additional card on top of a land and stacks on a Lightning Bolt to other draws. Run 1-2. [Not Recommended]Stormbreath Dragon: Better in a more tempo oriented deck, and even then Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker is probably better. But is a fine finisher. Play 0-3. [Not Recommended]Pearl Lake Ancient: Prognostic Sphinx is way superior as a finisher. Sure Pearl Lake can be flashed in and can't be countered, but it's easily chumped. It's better in a deck that can play End Hostilities. Play 0-1. [Not Recommended]Omenspeaker: An early game blocker that sets up your draws, that's about all. Play 0. [Not Recommended]Sigiled Starfish: It's no Nyx-Fleece Ram. Play 0. [Sideboard]Clever Impersonator: A Clone effect that can copy any nonland permanent. May be useful at some point. Play 0-2.
Planeswalkers:
[Staple]Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: Exile your opponent's creatures and eventually beat them with 'em. Against Control it exiles their few win cons and the ultimate can wreck them. Play 3-4. [Recommended]Jace, the Living Guildpact: Fuels Delve while filtering draws. -3 is a huge cost, but can be useful at times. -8 often wins you the game. Run 0-2. [Not Recommended]Chandra, Pyromaster: Doesn't really do too much for us. The +1 isn't too relevant, the 0 ability contradicts with Counterspells and the Ultimate won't win you the game. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker: Better in a more tempo version of the deck. There are better finishers available to us. But one that can occasionally be removal can be useful. Run 0-2. [Sideboard]Liliana Vess: Can be brought in against Midrange and Control. Run 0-1.
Instants & Sorceries:
Card Draw: [Staple]Divination: Is a sorcery and sometimes clashes with other spells, but is efficient in terms of mana cost. Play 2-3. [Staple]Steam Augury: It's a bad Fact or Fiction, but it fuels delve. Play 2-4. [Staple]Dig Through Time: Being able to dig 7 cards deep for whatever you need is a really powerful effect. With fetches, early removal and Steam Augury, can often be cast for UU. Run 1-2. [Recommended]Read the Bones: Might be better than Divination, but the life loss does not go unnoticed. Play 0-3. [Recommended]Jace's Ingenuity: Dig Through Time is recommended in its spot, but is just consistent draw 3 for 5 at instant speed. Play 0-3. [Not Recommended]Tormenting Voice: It's card filtering not card draw, and is sorcery speed. But, it costs 2 mana, and fuels delve. Run 0-3. [Not Recommended]Weave Fate: Steam Augury is better as it digs deeper and fuels delve, and for 1 more mana, you could just play Jace's Ingenuity instead. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Bitter Revelation: Although it does fuel delve and you get to choose what you keep, both Steam Augury and Read the Bones do the a better job. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Treasure Cruise: Dig Through Time does a better job as it is an instant, and it lets you dig 7 cards deep. Run 0-1.
Disruption: [Staple]Thoughtseize: One of the best disruption spells every printed. Run 3-4. [Recommended]Despise No reason to run this over Thoughtseize, unless you need copies 5-8. Run 0. [Sideboard]Stain the Mind: It's no Slaughter Games, but can be good against certain decks like Jeskai Ascendancy. Run 0-2.
Removal [Staple]Magma Jet: Efficient removal that sets up your draws. Run 1-4. [Staple]Lightning Strike: Efficient easy to cast removal. Run 2-4. [Staple]Hero's Downfall: Kills any creature or planeswalker. Run 3-4. [Staple]Anger of the Gods: One of the biggest reasons to play Red. Run 2-4. [Recommended]Silence the Believers Can be run as a 1-off for more removal. Run 0-1. [Recommended]Murderous Cut Can often be cast for 3, if not less. Have to be vary of how much delve you want to run in the deck though. Run 0-2. [Recommended]Ætherspouts Can be good in certain situations, and no so great in others. Run 0-2. [Not Recommended]Ulcerate: Better in an aggro deck, lifeloss hurts. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Bile Blight: Is a great card but the double black really hurts. Good in a heavy black Grixis deck, but other than that Lightning Strike is easier on the mana. Run 0-3. [Not Recommended]Stoke the Flames: No real reason for us to play it over Silence the Believers. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Curse of the Swine: Can be amazing when followed up by a Anger of the Gods, but that doesn't happen too often. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Spite of Mogis: Can be okay in a more delve oriented deck. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Drown in Sorrow: Good card, but no reason to play it over Anger of the Gods. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Extinguish All Hope: It's certainly no Damnation. Plus it doesn't kill Courser of Kruphix, among other things. Run 0. [Not Recommended]In Garruk's Wake: Can be good in a Sultai Ramp deck or something, but not in here. Run 0. [Sideboard]Magma Spray: Excellent against aggro. Run 3-4. [Sideboard]Dark Betrayal: Good if you expect a lot of black in your meta (Mono-Black Aggro, Abzan, Mardu). Run 0-3. [Sideboard]Arc Lightning: Another good anti-aggro card. Run 0-2.
Counterspells: [Staple]Dissolve: Best counterspell available to us. Run 3-4. [Staple]Dissipate: Dissolves 5-8 if you need them. Run 0-2. [Not Recommended]Nullify: A Essence Scatter that costs UU most of the time. Run 0. [Not Recommended]Mindswipe: Jeskai Tempo doesn't even run it. Run 0-1. [Sideboard]Disdainful Stroke: Great against all the midrange decks out there. Run 2-4. [Sideboard]Negate: Good in the Control mirror. Run 1-3. [Sideboard]Gainsay: Could be good against control, but not great anymore since MUD is no longer a thing. Run 0-2.
Win Conditions: [Staple]Empty the Pits: Late game win condition that only needs a turn or two to end the game. Run 1-3.
Artifacts & Enchantments:
[Not Recommended]Font of Fortunes: Slow card draw that you can drop on turn 2 and crack any time at instant speed. Play 0-3. [Not Recommended]Perilous Vault: A wrath effect we have available to us, but its really slow, and takes two turns to blow up. If only it had Flash, right? Play 0-1. [Sideboard]Circle of Flame: Can be sided in against aggro decks. Run 0-3. [Sideboard]Cranial Archive: Graveyard hate, or for long control games. Run 0-1.
Feel free to share your ideas, your decklists and results. We can discuss cards in depth and collectively try and make Grixis Control a Tier 1 Deck! If you find any mistakes in the Primer, do let me know and I'll fix it. Thanks for having a look
I'm very glad to see that this, as I've been wondering if/when we might have a primer for this awesome deck. I've been in several discussions on other threads about this deck. I've been getting very good results the last couple weeks with my build, and I'll definitely contribute to this discussion.
Personal highlight: I was already pretty full on cards in hand and had cleared all real threats, so I spent a couple turns in a row playing Steam Augury setting all 5 cards into one pile. My opponent predictably gave me the 0, but it did allow me after 2 turns to play ETP for 28 zombies.
Needless to say, Dissolve won't be a card until turn 5. 14 blue sources is far from where you want to be. Also, it is a pipe-dream to imagine a consistent Anger of the Gods until turn 6.
This is a classic example of trying to pack 1UU-, 1BB- and 1RR-spells in the same deck. Don't do this. Fetch-lands are great, but they require basics. If you have 8 fetch lands and 8 basic lands, then without Mana Confluence or Evolving Wilds you can only get 8 + (27-8) * 2 = 46 sources in a 27-land deck. 1CC spells require 19 sources (in a 27-lander) and 3 * 19 = 57 sources.
Instead, focus on UB splashing red, or UR splashing black. That's quite doable, for instance the following mana-base works for UBr (19 blue, 19 black and 10 red sources):
Yeah, the sample list was just something I put together really quick as an example of what the deck could look like. Thanks for your input though. When someone else posts a good list, I can replace that one with theirs ^^ So if you think you have a good list for the primer, let me know.
I think a BRu or URb list would probably be best, I'm not too sure which one though (just need BBBB late game). We do need to be able to cast Lightning Strike in the main and Anger of the Gods from the side early though. Could also work in more Murderous Cut in place of some Hero's Downfall, but I don't know how many cards with delve you can actually run along side Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits. Also, we need be be able to deal with Walkers.
A 27-land deck requires 13 sources for a 90% success rate (assuming you have two lands) to cast a 1C spell. The mana I showed has only 10. Here's the table:
I don't think I can get the mana to work.. I want to play it.
but anger + downfall and dissolve cannot be all played in the same deck with a standard mana base.
super annoying since I own 4 temple of deciet 4 temple of mallace 2 polluted delta and 3 bloodstained mire and pretty much nothing that good in any other colour combo.
I think it is possible to play UBr.. for Kreanos as a win condition.
Also Font of fortunes >> divination. It is not about mana effiecency its about tempo and timing... you don't counter or kill your opponents turn 3 play you'll die. turn 2 you aren't doing anything.
Although, it is a demonstration of why Steam Augury is a very powerful card.
I really do like Steam Augury now that it supports Delve so well. Empty the Pits (along side Prognostic Sphinx) is most likely going to be the finisher of choice for the deck.
As for Carsten Kotter's list, Bile Blight seems too hard to cast; you don't really need more than 2 Empty the Pits; 4 Thoughtseizeand 2 Despise in the main seems unnecessary; and I don't really think one needs Tormenting Voice, even without it your graveyard gets filled up really quickly, maybe if he was running Murderous Cutas well, then he would need to run it, but yeah. It's an alright starting point though.
I actually like Tormented Voice a lot for what it does. Cute synergies aside, smoothing out draws is a real concern and Tormented Voice is better at insuring you actually hit your land drops in a timely matter when compared to say Font of Fortunes.
He also really seemed to be sleeping on Prognostic and Stroke as ways to combat the Midrange menace. List looks pretty cool and while I don't think Steam Augury is very good in a vacuum, Dig through Time IS very good and any card that can make dig more busted than it already is deserves some attention.
I actually like Tormented Voice a lot for what it does. Cute synergies aside, smoothing out draws is a real concern and Tormented Voice is better at insuring you actually hit your land drops in a timely matter when compared to say Font of Fortunes.
I've been thinking about this card a reasonable amount since it was dropped. Part of me is ashamed to want to try Wild Guess in a control deck and part of me is really curious.
He also really seemed to be sleeping on Prognostic and Stroke as ways to combat the Midrange menace. List looks pretty cool and while I don't think Steam Augury is very good in a vacuum, Dig through Time IS very good and any card that can make dig more busted than it already is deserves some attention.
The thing that bothers me the most about this list is that he's running 6 dedicated delve spells. You can't just casually hardcast Dig or Empty. I'd cut some number -- leaning towards cutting Empty the Pits as I think it's a bit of a trap beyond a one-of (but hey, SCG is just trying to sell some cards man).
Oh absolutely, I've cut the Pits in short order, despite how cool it admittedly is.
6 Fetchlands and Steam Augury/Tormended Voice go some ways in powering out Delve much faster than you should reasonably be able to so my problem with his 6 delve spells is less that it's 6 and more to do what 6. In a Augury fueled list Dig seems absurd and I could easily see myself maxing out.
At that point what it really starts to boil down to is your threats and answers tbh. Sphinx seems solid and I've even started playing around with Soul of Shandalaar to combat the green decks although I might be going a tad to deep there.
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I have to agree with the earlier points about trying to play RR BB and UU on turn three, with the mana base is just unreasonable. It's nice to see math that reinforces what I was feeling about the mana. As such, I've relegated Anger to the sideboard and since then it's been super consistent.
Tormenting Voice is a good card for this, no argument. I am personally not running it, just because it's such a tight list, but it does serve a role. My thoughts are that it's really best in game 1, as prior to sideboarding you may have a few stray cards that are suboptima against the cards your opponent is running. A Magma Jet VS a R/G monsters list isn't going to do too much for you, but being able to Voice that away to draw some potential - or even hit your land drops - is a very relevant play.
I only have a few bits of red in the mainboard, which helps make casting spells a lot easier. I've been considering cutting something to put in a 27th land, but I'm conflicted about that - I don't really miss land drops very often at all, but when you miss even one it hurts BAD.
One thing I want to point out is the mainboard Disdainful Stroke. I cannot stress how important this card has been, in almost every game. Particularly when on the play - a green deck dropping a Sylvan Caryatid turn 2 into something like a Siege Rhino turn 3 when you're at 2 lands is just backbreaking, and this plugs that hole so well.
I think a BRu or URb list would probably be best, I'm not too sure which one though (just need BBBB late game). We do need to be able to cast Lightning Strike in the main and Anger of the Gods from the side early though. Could also work in more Murderous Cut in place of some Hero's Downfall, but I don't know how many cards with delve you can actually run along side Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits. Also, we need be be able to deal with Walkers.
It is possible to get a (19, 19, 13) mana-distribution, but it is going to be painful as you'll need 2 Mana Confluence:
This has 16 untapped sources and 11 tapped ones. With that much pain, you might want to change scry-lands to refugee-lands, or have some other form of life-gain. Alternatively accept that you'll have a lot of cipt-lands.
Personally, Murderous Cut has been such a clutch card that I've gone to three, and may even want more. I can't imagine playing any removal card above that one.
atm I have 3 silence and 2 cut.. because I really like being able to use Dig through time to do things like grab a counter when I need it there is only so many delve cards you can play.
believe the hype murderous cut is awesome.... has saved my life many times.. allowing me to use two removal spells in a turn. but using delve is a delicate balance.
I'll be trying this out tomorrow night at FNM. It's kinda iffy, but has some pretty powerful plays. Monastery Swiftspear will most likely get replaced, just not sure with what yet. It's just a bad card outside of a Tempo or Walker based deck.
I'm thinking Ashcloud Phoenix may be worth mainboarding, but I'm not sure yet. The card seems resilient, which is what we want, but the damage and manasink to flip it is not ideal. Anger of the Gods is a card I think is amazing, but my deck can't support the RR to cast it. That may change if I get run over by aggro/swarm decks. Overall it seems to run pretty smoothly, though I do miss the spoiled manabase we used to have.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
I agree. Silence has been very good in my testing, plus the format has slowed down a bit because of all the mana fixing that comes in tapped. So a four mana removal effect is not as slow as it seems, and most of the time you can double it up. Thinking of putting another on the sideboard because of how strong it has been in testing.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
How many red sources would we need to reliably cast Fated Conflagration? With us already wanting early red for Anger of the Gods, it seems like this could be a decent replacement for Hero's Downfall, allowing us to reduce black to a splash or even cut it entirely.
24 lands: 22 red sources
25 lands: 23 red sources
26 lands: 24 red sources
27 lands: 24 red sources
28 lands: 25 red sources
To stir other finisher discussion -- what are thoughts on Necropolis Fiend?
Other than it likely being a casual card.
Fiend isn't awful only because he has removal attached to him. However, I don't feel like our deck can reliably abuse him enough to make him more than just a 4/5 flyer for a sometimes discounted mana cost, which is not what we want.
Actually after doing some more playtesting and seeing a couple other matches other control decks have played, I think Phoenix may be what we want. The card is very resistant to removal, trades very well if needed, and it has high enough power that it can win the game singlehandedly for us. Plus it turns on Stubborn Denial, which isn't a bad sideboard card.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Do you find that the addition of white makes Empty the Pits awkward to cast? I almost feel like Perilous Vault would be a better inclusion, both in terms of function but also as a way to smooth out problems with mana fixing.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
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[Staple] - Great card for us, you should seriously consider running it.
[Recommended] - Good card, but there are better options available to us.
[Not Recommended] - Not very good, unless your build is very different.
[Sideboard] - A sideboard card that you should try to run depending on your meta.
[Staple] Prognostic Sphinx: It's no Ætherling, but it has evasion, can dodge removal, and smoothen out your draws. One of the best finishers available to us. Run 1-2.
[Staple] Keranos, God of Storms: Just provides a lot of card advantage. Gives you an additional card on top of a land and stacks on a Lightning Bolt to other draws. Run 1-2.
[Not Recommended] Stormbreath Dragon: Better in a more tempo oriented deck, and even then Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker is probably better. But is a fine finisher. Play 0-3.
[Not Recommended] Pearl Lake Ancient: Prognostic Sphinx is way superior as a finisher. Sure Pearl Lake can be flashed in and can't be countered, but it's easily chumped. It's better in a deck that can play End Hostilities. Play 0-1.
[Not Recommended] Omenspeaker: An early game blocker that sets up your draws, that's about all. Play 0.
[Not Recommended] Sigiled Starfish: It's no Nyx-Fleece Ram. Play 0.
[Sideboard] Clever Impersonator: A Clone effect that can copy any nonland permanent. May be useful at some point. Play 0-2.
[Staple] Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: Exile your opponent's creatures and eventually beat them with 'em. Against Control it exiles their few win cons and the ultimate can wreck them. Play 3-4.
[Recommended] Jace, the Living Guildpact: Fuels Delve while filtering draws. -3 is a huge cost, but can be useful at times. -8 often wins you the game. Run 0-2.
[Not Recommended] Chandra, Pyromaster: Doesn't really do too much for us. The +1 isn't too relevant, the 0 ability contradicts with Counterspells and the Ultimate won't win you the game. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker: Better in a more tempo version of the deck. There are better finishers available to us. But one that can occasionally be removal can be useful. Run 0-2.
[Sideboard] Liliana Vess: Can be brought in against Midrange and Control. Run 0-1.
Card Draw:
[Staple] Divination: Is a sorcery and sometimes clashes with other spells, but is efficient in terms of mana cost. Play 2-3.
[Staple] Steam Augury: It's a bad Fact or Fiction, but it fuels delve. Play 2-4.
[Staple] Dig Through Time: Being able to dig 7 cards deep for whatever you need is a really powerful effect. With fetches, early removal and Steam Augury, can often be cast for UU. Run 1-2.
[Recommended] Read the Bones: Might be better than Divination, but the life loss does not go unnoticed. Play 0-3.
[Recommended] Jace's Ingenuity: Dig Through Time is recommended in its spot, but is just consistent draw 3 for 5 at instant speed. Play 0-3.
[Not Recommended] Tormenting Voice: It's card filtering not card draw, and is sorcery speed. But, it costs 2 mana, and fuels delve. Run 0-3.
[Not Recommended] Weave Fate: Steam Augury is better as it digs deeper and fuels delve, and for 1 more mana, you could just play Jace's Ingenuity instead. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Bitter Revelation: Although it does fuel delve and you get to choose what you keep, both Steam Augury and Read the Bones do the a better job. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Treasure Cruise: Dig Through Time does a better job as it is an instant, and it lets you dig 7 cards deep. Run 0-1.
Disruption:
[Staple] Thoughtseize: One of the best disruption spells every printed. Run 3-4.
[Recommended] Despise No reason to run this over Thoughtseize, unless you need copies 5-8. Run 0.
[Sideboard] Stain the Mind: It's no Slaughter Games, but can be good against certain decks like Jeskai Ascendancy. Run 0-2.
Removal
[Staple] Magma Jet: Efficient removal that sets up your draws. Run 1-4.
[Staple] Lightning Strike: Efficient easy to cast removal. Run 2-4.
[Staple] Hero's Downfall: Kills any creature or planeswalker. Run 3-4.
[Staple] Anger of the Gods: One of the biggest reasons to play Red. Run 2-4.
[Recommended] Silence the Believers Can be run as a 1-off for more removal. Run 0-1.
[Recommended] Murderous Cut Can often be cast for 3, if not less. Have to be vary of how much delve you want to run in the deck though. Run 0-2.
[Recommended] Ætherspouts Can be good in certain situations, and no so great in others. Run 0-2.
[Not Recommended] Ulcerate: Better in an aggro deck, lifeloss hurts. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Bile Blight: Is a great card but the double black really hurts. Good in a heavy black Grixis deck, but other than that Lightning Strike is easier on the mana. Run 0-3.
[Not Recommended] Stoke the Flames: No real reason for us to play it over Silence the Believers. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Curse of the Swine: Can be amazing when followed up by a Anger of the Gods, but that doesn't happen too often. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Spite of Mogis: Can be okay in a more delve oriented deck. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Drown in Sorrow: Good card, but no reason to play it over Anger of the Gods. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Extinguish All Hope: It's certainly no Damnation. Plus it doesn't kill Courser of Kruphix, among other things. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] In Garruk's Wake: Can be good in a Sultai Ramp deck or something, but not in here. Run 0.
[Sideboard] Magma Spray: Excellent against aggro. Run 3-4.
[Sideboard] Dark Betrayal: Good if you expect a lot of black in your meta (Mono-Black Aggro, Abzan, Mardu). Run 0-3.
[Sideboard] Arc Lightning: Another good anti-aggro card. Run 0-2.
Counterspells:
[Staple] Dissolve: Best counterspell available to us. Run 3-4.
[Staple] Dissipate: Dissolves 5-8 if you need them. Run 0-2.
[Not Recommended] Nullify: A Essence Scatter that costs UU most of the time. Run 0.
[Not Recommended] Mindswipe: Jeskai Tempo doesn't even run it. Run 0-1.
[Sideboard] Disdainful Stroke: Great against all the midrange decks out there. Run 2-4.
[Sideboard] Negate: Good in the Control mirror. Run 1-3.
[Sideboard] Gainsay: Could be good against control, but not great anymore since MUD is no longer a thing. Run 0-2.
Win Conditions:
[Staple] Empty the Pits: Late game win condition that only needs a turn or two to end the game. Run 1-3.
[Not Recommended] Font of Fortunes: Slow card draw that you can drop on turn 2 and crack any time at instant speed. Play 0-3.
[Not Recommended] Perilous Vault: A wrath effect we have available to us, but its really slow, and takes two turns to blow up. If only it had Flash, right? Play 0-1.
[Sideboard] Circle of Flame: Can be sided in against aggro decks. Run 0-3.
[Sideboard] Cranial Archive: Graveyard hate, or for long control games. Run 0-1.
[Staple] Island/Swamp/Mountain: You need them. Run 6-10.
[Staple] Temple of Deceit/Temple of Epiphany/Temple of Malice: Although they enter tapped, they tap for either colour and fix your draws. Run 8-12.
[Staple] Polluted Delta/Bloodstained Mire: Although we can't fetch shocks with them, they do fuel delve. Run 4-8.
[Staple] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Good fixing that makes it much easier to cast Empty the Pits, it also lets you tap fetches for mana. Run 1-2.
[Recommended] Mana Confluence/Shivan Reef: An amount of these can be added to round off the mana base when needing to hit certain colours early consistently. Run 0-3.
[Not Recommended] Radiant Fountain/Dismal Backwater/Swiftwater Cliffs/Bloodfell Caves: Little reason to run these over scry lands, but if you feel like you need help against aggro or life loss, these could be helpful. Run 0-3.
2x Prognostic Sphinx
Instants (25)
4x Bile Blight
4x Hero's Downfall
1x Silence the Believers
2x Murderous Cut
1x AEtherspouts
4x Dissolve
4x Steam Augury
4x Dig Through Time
1x Empty the Pits
Sorceries (4)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Perilous Vault
Lands (26)
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Dismal Backwater
3x Temple of Malice
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Island
3x Swamp
1x Mountain
2x Despise
4x Disdainful Stroke
3x Drown in Sorrow
4x Jorubai Murk Lurker
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Liliana Vess
I play aggressively with delve, running the full package of 4 Steam Augury, a pair of Jace, the Living Guildpact. The sheer card advantage from having those two is huge, and a really potent enabler for Murderous Cut (3x) and of course Empty the Pits
Personal highlight: I was already pretty full on cards in hand and had cleared all real threats, so I spent a couple turns in a row playing Steam Augury setting all 5 cards into one pile. My opponent predictably gave me the 0, but it did allow me after 2 turns to play ETP for 28 zombies.
27 lands:
U: 14 (7 enters tapped)
B: 19 (7 enters tapped)
R: 12 (6 enters tapped)
Needless to say, Dissolve won't be a card until turn 5. 14 blue sources is far from where you want to be. Also, it is a pipe-dream to imagine a consistent Anger of the Gods until turn 6.
This is a classic example of trying to pack 1UU-, 1BB- and 1RR-spells in the same deck. Don't do this. Fetch-lands are great, but they require basics. If you have 8 fetch lands and 8 basic lands, then without Mana Confluence or Evolving Wilds you can only get 8 + (27-8) * 2 = 46 sources in a 27-land deck. 1CC spells require 19 sources (in a 27-lander) and 3 * 19 = 57 sources.
Instead, focus on UB splashing red, or UR splashing black. That's quite doable, for instance the following mana-base works for UBr (19 blue, 19 black and 10 red sources):
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstrained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Temple of Malice
3 Temple of Epiphany
4 Dismal Backwater
2 Swiftwater Cliffs
This mana-base won't allow for Lightning Strike, but Steam Augury is fine.
Yeah, the sample list was just something I put together really quick as an example of what the deck could look like. Thanks for your input though. When someone else posts a good list, I can replace that one with theirs ^^ So if you think you have a good list for the primer, let me know.
I think a BRu or URb list would probably be best, I'm not too sure which one though (just need BBBB late game). We do need to be able to cast Lightning Strike in the main and Anger of the Gods from the side early though. Could also work in more Murderous Cut in place of some Hero's Downfall, but I don't know how many cards with delve you can actually run along side Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits. Also, we need be be able to deal with Walkers.
I'll throw it in the primer as a sideboard option.
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
A 27-land deck requires 13 sources for a 90% success rate (assuming you have two lands) to cast a 1C spell. The mana I showed has only 10. Here's the table:
but anger + downfall and dissolve cannot be all played in the same deck with a standard mana base.
super annoying since I own 4 temple of deciet 4 temple of mallace 2 polluted delta and 3 bloodstained mire and pretty much nothing that good in any other colour combo.
I think it is possible to play UBr.. for Kreanos as a win condition.
Also Font of fortunes >> divination. It is not about mana effiecency its about tempo and timing... you don't counter or kill your opponents turn 3 play you'll die. turn 2 you aren't doing anything.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
It is not very good.
Although, it is a demonstration of why Steam Augury is a very powerful card.
I really do like Steam Augury now that it supports Delve so well. Empty the Pits (along side Prognostic Sphinx) is most likely going to be the finisher of choice for the deck.
As for Carsten Kotter's list, Bile Blight seems too hard to cast; you don't really need more than 2 Empty the Pits; 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Despise in the main seems unnecessary; and I don't really think one needs Tormenting Voice, even without it your graveyard gets filled up really quickly, maybe if he was running Murderous Cut as well, then he would need to run it, but yeah. It's an alright starting point though.
He also really seemed to be sleeping on Prognostic and Stroke as ways to combat the Midrange menace. List looks pretty cool and while I don't think Steam Augury is very good in a vacuum, Dig through Time IS very good and any card that can make dig more busted than it already is deserves some attention.
I've been thinking about this card a reasonable amount since it was dropped. Part of me is ashamed to want to try Wild Guess in a control deck and part of me is really curious.
The thing that bothers me the most about this list is that he's running 6 dedicated delve spells. You can't just casually hardcast Dig or Empty. I'd cut some number -- leaning towards cutting Empty the Pits as I think it's a bit of a trap beyond a one-of (but hey, SCG is just trying to sell some cards man).
6 Fetchlands and Steam Augury/Tormended Voice go some ways in powering out Delve much faster than you should reasonably be able to so my problem with his 6 delve spells is less that it's 6 and more to do what 6. In a Augury fueled list Dig seems absurd and I could easily see myself maxing out.
At that point what it really starts to boil down to is your threats and answers tbh. Sphinx seems solid and I've even started playing around with Soul of Shandalaar to combat the green decks although I might be going a tad to deep there.
Tormenting Voice is a good card for this, no argument. I am personally not running it, just because it's such a tight list, but it does serve a role. My thoughts are that it's really best in game 1, as prior to sideboarding you may have a few stray cards that are suboptima against the cards your opponent is running. A Magma Jet VS a R/G monsters list isn't going to do too much for you, but being able to Voice that away to draw some potential - or even hit your land drops - is a very relevant play.
This is the list I've been running:
2 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Jace, the Living Guildpact
2 Liliana Vess
4 Steam Augury
3 Dissolve
2 Dissipate
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Murderous Cut
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
2 Despise
2 Dig Through Time
2 Aetherspouts
1 Empty the Pits
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Malice
3 Shivan Reef
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Thoughtseize
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Magma Spray
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
I only have a few bits of red in the mainboard, which helps make casting spells a lot easier. I've been considering cutting something to put in a 27th land, but I'm conflicted about that - I don't really miss land drops very often at all, but when you miss even one it hurts BAD.
One thing I want to point out is the mainboard Disdainful Stroke. I cannot stress how important this card has been, in almost every game. Particularly when on the play - a green deck dropping a Sylvan Caryatid turn 2 into something like a Siege Rhino turn 3 when you're at 2 lands is just backbreaking, and this plugs that hole so well.
It is possible to get a (19, 19, 13) mana-distribution, but it is going to be painful as you'll need 2 Mana Confluence:
2 Mana Confluence
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstrained Mire
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Dismal Backwater
This has 16 untapped sources and 11 tapped ones. With that much pain, you might want to change scry-lands to refugee-lands, or have some other form of life-gain. Alternatively accept that you'll have a lot of cipt-lands.
there are a bunch of cards that don't die easily.
Rakshaka deathdealer, Sarkhan dragonspeaker, bloodsoaked champion, Scuttling doom engine plus Whip of erabos decks. furthermore you blow out people playing herald of torment and boon satyr. late game it is a boardwipe.
atm I have 3 silence and 2 cut.. because I really like being able to use Dig through time to do things like grab a counter when I need it there is only so many delve cards you can play.
believe the hype murderous cut is awesome.... has saved my life many times.. allowing me to use two removal spells in a turn. but using delve is a delicate balance.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Keranos, God of Storms
Instants
4 Magma Spray
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Lightning Strike
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
3 Steam Augury
1 Silence the Believers
2 Dig Through Time
1 Aetherspouts
2 Empty the Pits
3 Thoughtseize
3 Despise
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Harness by Force
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Aetherspouts
I'm thinking Ashcloud Phoenix may be worth mainboarding, but I'm not sure yet. The card seems resilient, which is what we want, but the damage and manasink to flip it is not ideal. Anger of the Gods is a card I think is amazing, but my deck can't support the RR to cast it. That may change if I get run over by aggro/swarm decks. Overall it seems to run pretty smoothly, though I do miss the spoiled manabase we used to have.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Other than it likely being a casual card.
24 lands: 22 red sources
25 lands: 23 red sources
26 lands: 24 red sources
27 lands: 24 red sources
28 lands: 25 red sources
Fiend isn't awful only because he has removal attached to him. However, I don't feel like our deck can reliably abuse him enough to make him more than just a 4/5 flyer for a sometimes discounted mana cost, which is not what we want.
Actually after doing some more playtesting and seeing a couple other matches other control decks have played, I think Phoenix may be what we want. The card is very resistant to removal, trades very well if needed, and it has high enough power that it can win the game singlehandedly for us. Plus it turns on Stubborn Denial, which isn't a bad sideboard card.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Do you find that the addition of white makes Empty the Pits awkward to cast? I almost feel like Perilous Vault would be a better inclusion, both in terms of function but also as a way to smooth out problems with mana fixing.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.