I think chained to the rocks is one of the best, if not the best removal card we have access too. Raphael Levy was using evolving wilds in his pro tour deck just to make that card work. I'm considering doing the same in the future.
Do you have a deck list for Levy's decklist? I really think chained and magma jet are the two most overlooked cards in this color, and some of Mardu's best options.
Seeker of the Way is so ridiculously important for this deck, in my opinion. Brad Nelson explained it best when he said it's not a card you plan to win with, it's just a piece of the puzzle. On the play, he opens up really strong tempo lines. Turn two seeker, turn three crackling doom is pretty crazy and even works on caryatid on the play and courser on the draw. Two of them in play is just crazy, and mid-game you can swing for 4 or 5 out of nowhere. At the very least, he goes on the butcher's block should he become irrelevant.
I'm definitely in the magma jet camp with a few others in this thread. I went a bit further and started running read the bones. I'll probably swap it out for Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker once I get my hands on them, though.
I've been dedicating 8 slots of the sideboard for a transformational beaters sideboard plan, cause turn three 5/5 flyer, turn four 5/4 flyer is game over for lots of people. With a post board creature suite of: 4 bloodsoaked champion, 4 seeker of the way, 4 master of the feast, 4 goblin rabblemaster and 4 butcher of the horde.. it lets you just aggro people out. I'm not sticking with that plan since it doesn't solve our difficult matches, but it's been great fun in testing
It looked like he played a very controlling and grindy Mardu Planeswalker Deck. It's possible he favoured Chained to the Rocks over Hero's Downfall because it's 1 CMC vs 3 CMC, allowing him to play multiple spells per turn. But because he needed more mountains (he plays 27 lands!) he probably didn't have the mana fixing to play double black. I wonder how well his list did against Abzan Midranges and the Jeskai Wins.
At my local store there are a few Abzan / Green Devotion and Jeskai decks. I did OK last week since their decks weren't really complete. I feel like this week they'll all be more tuned because of the Pro Tour.
P.S. What are your thoughts on Herald of Torment? Bestow onto Seeker for a 6 lifegain swing, or a 3/3 flying 3 drop.
I'm not a huge fan of Herald of Torment, but there are deck lists that seem to be doing well with him. I know the the guy who won the Pennsylvania State Championship was running them in his mainboard. There is an article by him on TCGPlayer.
I know my mana needs some work honestly, and I think the deck might need more draw power due to the amount of times you can going into top deck mode.
I am considering running or trying Read the Bones
Also I am thinking of lowering Brimaz, the guy is awesome but I think 3 might be too many.
Perhaps even lowering Hero's Downfall in the main as well to really tamper with the removal and possibly fit in some Seekers, because I really just want to test the deck out.
In terms of 4 drop creatures I prefer Phoenix miles over Butcher, due to my removal heavy meta.
This deck is made out of cards I have available or I would probably run 3 Ashcloud's
I've also been thinking of possibly playing some evolves to really accommodate chained...but it just makes the deck so slow, and hitting threats or having answers on time really is was keeps this deck alive. The removal and threat level power.
Master of the Feast has been testing much better than seeker of the way. The decks list posted here are so greedy in terms of colored mana and CMC. I have been playing ash cloud phoenix for about a week and it has done well enough for me to consider adding some more to my sideboard. So far my biggest challenges have come from a early hornet queen or hornets nest out of the green decks.
Sorin has been very poor for this kind of mid range deck and belongs in a token deck or abzan deck.
Mardu charm has been nearly worthless. Was drop a long time ago along with Brimaz
I had not problems last week hitting the right mana. I may have been on a lucky streak though. I really like the list by Eddie Sutton, the guy who won Pennsylvania State Championships.
Civilwargoat - What's your decklist with Master of the Feast? Is it more aggressive list with Bloodsoaked Champion?
I am trying to work Bile Blight into the sb for the hornet problem but I find it too narrow as it only hits those 2 cards and it would be the only match up I would bring them in for. Its possible that the plains should be another tri-land. The mana has been ok, but it still feels like something is a little off. Haven't considered the Gryff but it seems narrow, like Blight. Since the way my deck is configured drawing extra cards is not possible each card slot needs to be as flexible and as powerful as possible.
The Champions are going to get cut because they never do what i need them to do which is to be a recurring source of damage vs control. And they have the same problem Bile blight would have, which is that they are for only one match up, that being control. I have been impressed with the Phoenix and and debating 1 Thoughtseize 2 Phoenix in their place.
I'm also cutting champions. They're great in the opening hand, sometimes. That's almost all they bring to table. Not really where I want to be with cards in this deck.
Glad to see I'm not the only one getting positive results out of Master of the Feast. He's been just brutal in my testing.
Surprised to see a lack of Bile Blight in some of these lists, but maybe it's just my meta that makes it so good. Lots of green ramp and jeskai.
I'm also cutting champions. They're great in the opening hand, sometimes. That's almost all they bring to table. Not really where I want to be with cards in this deck.
Glad to see I'm not the only one getting positive results out of Master of the Feast. He's been just brutal in my testing.
Surprised to see a lack of Bile Blight in some of these lists, but maybe it's just my meta that makes it so good. Lots of green ramp and jeskai.
I know that Blight is great against the hornet tokens but getting a 1 or 2 of card to line up with their 1 or 2 of card isn't worth messing the deck up for. I am going to run no blights tomorrow night where i know there are several green devotion players and how it goes.
I'm also cutting champions. They're great in the opening hand, sometimes. That's almost all they bring to table. Not really where I want to be with cards in this deck.
Glad to see I'm not the only one getting positive results out of Master of the Feast. He's been just brutal in my testing.
Surprised to see a lack of Bile Blight in some of these lists, but maybe it's just my meta that makes it so good. Lots of green ramp and jeskai.
I know that Blight is great against the hornet tokens but getting a 1 or 2 of card to line up with their 1 or 2 of card isn't worth messing the deck up for. I am going to run no blights tomorrow night where i know there are several green devotion players and how it goes.
At the very least, bile blight hits their dorks as well. An answer to cards that comprise good starts and good endings is certainly nothing to scoff at.
I'm also cutting champions. They're great in the opening hand, sometimes. That's almost all they bring to table. Not really where I want to be with cards in this deck.
Glad to see I'm not the only one getting positive results out of Master of the Feast. He's been just brutal in my testing.
Surprised to see a lack of Bile Blight in some of these lists, but maybe it's just my meta that makes it so good. Lots of green ramp and jeskai.
I know that Blight is great against the hornet tokens but getting a 1 or 2 of card to line up with their 1 or 2 of card isn't worth messing the deck up for. I am going to run no blights tomorrow night where i know there are several green devotion players and how it goes.
Oh, just realized my post popped up right below your mention of the card. I wasn't replying specifically to you or anything. I just find Bile Blight to be really good in general. Hits all the three drops I'm actually scared of right on curve when I'm on the draw, and it keeps me aggressive on the play. Throw in the fact that it can be a huge card advantage swing, and I'm just thoroughly sold.
The card did so much work in the Jeskai decks through the PT weekend, that I am sure it would have the same results in the mardu somewhat.
Also I read people keep cutting Brimaz, I actually dont know if i can manage that! I just enjoy dropping bombs, and I feel like after wearing down
an opponents resources, and with our removal Brimaz can close out games so fast.
But then again my Mardu midrange is honestly at its core a RW splash b just for seize, dooms, and downfalls.
At the very least, bile blight hits their dorks as well. An answer to cards that comprise good starts and good endings is certainly nothing to scoff at.
Sylvan Caryatid is hexproof and Courser of Kruphix is 4 toughness, so unless you're doing something ELSE into them as well, it's frustrating to say the least, especially when most of our burn spells only do 2 or 3 damage. It's been the death of me two FNM in a row. I can either waste a Heros Downfall, Crackling Doom, or Banishing light on the Courser to stall the threats/land life gain (while knowing all the decks run full playsets of both and I have no maindeck answers to Caryatid) or just hope I can deal with whatever threats DO come down. But even then, they have a 0/3 hexproof blocker and 2/4 blocker. The only real ways around them seem to be wraths or air creatures. I'm trying out a creature set next week with Goblin Rabblemaster being the only non-flyer and bringing some nice air support with Herald of Torment, Hushwing Gryff, Stormbreath Dragon, or Wingmate Roc in addition to Butcher of the Horde. With enough kill/disruption, I should be able to survive long enough to get the 5CMC threats online.
The card did so much work in the Jeskai decks through the PT weekend, that I am sure it would have the same results in the mardu somewhat.
Also I read people keep cutting Brimaz, I actually dont know if i can manage that! I just enjoy dropping bombs, and I feel like after wearing down
an opponents resources, and with our removal Brimaz can close out games so fast.
But then again my Mardu midrange is honestly at its core a RW splash b just for seize, dooms, and downfalls.
Brimaz lines up very poorly vs green creatures, like rhino, courser, and polykranous. He doesn't trade up like a rabble master can and his token alone don't do enough.
Looking over the list you posted 11 tap lands seems like too many.
The issue I have with the gryff is how little pressure he puts on your opponent. 2/1 for 3 isn't that great when the most common etb effect is a rhino drain and a hornet queen. Am i missing something about the work gryff did at the pro tour?
At the very least, bile blight hits their dorks as well. An answer to cards that comprise good starts and good endings is certainly nothing to scoff at.
Sylvan Caryatid is hexproof and Courser of Kruphix is 4 toughness, so unless you're doing something ELSE into them as well, it's frustrating to say the least, especially when most of our burn spells only do 2 or 3 damage. It's been the death of me two FNM in a row. I can either waste a Heros Downfall, Crackling Doom, or Banishing light on the Courser to stall the threats/land life gain (while knowing all the decks run full playsets of both and I have no maindeck answers to Caryatid) or just hope I can deal with whatever threats DO come down. But even then, they have a 0/3 hexproof blocker and 2/4 blocker. The only real ways around them seem to be wraths or air creatures. I'm trying out a creature set next week with Goblin Rabblemaster being the only non-flyer and bringing some nice air support with Herald of Torment, Hushwing Gryff, Stormbreath Dragon, or Wingmate Roc in addition to Butcher of the Horde. With enough kill/disruption, I should be able to survive long enough to get the 5CMC threats online.
This is why I rely on Butcher and Master against G/x. Both cards come down at a point in the curve that belies their p/t ratio- which allows you to keep pace with the G/x accelerated threats. While they drop dorks to power out a turn three polukranos, we simply drop a 5/5 in the air to answer. Bile Blight trumps their Hornet Queen nut draws and even Arbor Colossus falls to master/butcher + burn. Meanwhile, Rabblemaster can trade up to take down a courser/caryatid, Seeker can do the same (and live). They don't even block most of the time, assuring that butcher/master is a fast clock. Lifelink jabs combined with removal and burn keep us racing just fine.
my experience with master of the feast against abzan is that they have so much removal for it that they just wait for your upkeep to get a card then kill it with abzan charm/utter end/hero's downfall
If you are having all kinds of problems with Abzan Midrange there are primarily three cards you want to be playing Butcher of the Horde, Stormbreath Dragon, and ashcloud phoenix. It doesn't even matter if you don't have tokens for the butcher to eat, he is still a 5/4 flyer for 4 mana that has added utility. People might complain that he's not evasive. How many aggressively costed playable creatures can survive a Hero's downfall? The answer is very few, so you might as well just get used to your stuff getting blasted out of the sky and just make sure you have another threat to play the following turn. The format as it is right now is very grindy and that means most games go to a top-deck race. In that race you want to be drawing fat fliers or you are going to lose. If you are playing a creature based midrange and you are not playing the fat fliers you have at your disposal, you will lose to Polly and Siege Rhino every time.
Also from my experience I have found that you need to pack an answer to Hornet Queen, because that card is devastating and showing up more and more. I can't even tell you how many times I've been completely dominating a game only to have that thing drop and then I just slowly lose the game while praying to top deck an anger. It's worth the sideboard space, because you will lose the game without an answer. I myself pack 3 Anger of the gods in the main and 3 end hostilities in the board for green devotion and more aggressive azban decks.
Just a disclaimer... these comments are directed more at creature based midrange decks than the control decks. I know alot of the builds on here are some where between.
Here's what I've been tinkering with. Because of the prevalence of strong Abzan decks where I play, I've been trying to make it strong against that. Been testing it against several Abzan decks, and it's been doing better than the previous iteration.
I'll be taking this to the next FNM. I know Chained to the Rocks seems sort of out of place with only 4 mountains, but with the fetching too, I'm hoping to get more use out of them. I play on holding Downfalls almost purely for Planeswalker removal and in an emergency against creatures. [Gods Willing] is very important to evade removal and get in that last damage, as unlike other midrange decks, Mardu wants to get in and get it done as soon as our fatties drop. With Wingmate Roc being picked up by many Abzan decks, I feel it would be smarter to be able to evade them and swing at their face. Chained, being cheaper than many of our other options for removal, allows us to do 1 or more other things on a turn we cast it. Or at least, that's the hope.
@Adelaise I like your list, but I think if you're trying to run Chained to the Rocks you should just play all 4 of them, and in addition, you've got to make your manabase work with it better. I think something more like this would work better with Chained:
Has anybody been playing Raise the Alarm, Mardu Charm and Seeker of the Way together in playtesting? They seem like they're made to be a team, and Mardu Charm already does similar things as Thoughtseize and Stoke the Flames.
I want to play stoke but I feel like Crackling Doom does both of the things I want stoke to do at the same time, I just prefer not casting it for full price and instead use stoke as a cool combat trick when I am nearly tapped out with tokens/seeker on defense if necessary.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
You just need it to be a mountain though. You don't need it untapped. You just need your turn 1 land to produce white, and a second land that is or can fetch a mountain, then your game plan is still on track. Also, in hindsight, I think the 2 Temple of Triumphs should be 2 more Temple of Silence, to ensure that turn 2 you're either playing Chained to the Rocks or Thoughtseize.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If not a decklist, a link will suffice as well.
4 goblin rabblemaster
4 butcher of the horde
3 crackling doom
3 hero's downfall
3 magma jet
4 lightning strike
2 bile blight
3 mardu charm
2 read the bones
Seeker of the Way is so ridiculously important for this deck, in my opinion. Brad Nelson explained it best when he said it's not a card you plan to win with, it's just a piece of the puzzle. On the play, he opens up really strong tempo lines. Turn two seeker, turn three crackling doom is pretty crazy and even works on caryatid on the play and courser on the draw. Two of them in play is just crazy, and mid-game you can swing for 4 or 5 out of nowhere. At the very least, he goes on the butcher's block should he become irrelevant.
I'm definitely in the magma jet camp with a few others in this thread. I went a bit further and started running read the bones. I'll probably swap it out for Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker once I get my hands on them, though.
I've been dedicating 8 slots of the sideboard for a transformational beaters sideboard plan, cause turn three 5/5 flyer, turn four 5/4 flyer is game over for lots of people. With a post board creature suite of: 4 bloodsoaked champion, 4 seeker of the way, 4 master of the feast, 4 goblin rabblemaster and 4 butcher of the horde.. it lets you just aggro people out. I'm not sticking with that plan since it doesn't solve our difficult matches, but it's been great fun in testing
At my local store there are a few Abzan / Green Devotion and Jeskai decks. I did OK last week since their decks weren't really complete. I feel like this week they'll all be more tuned because of the Pro Tour.
P.S. What are your thoughts on Herald of Torment? Bestow onto Seeker for a 6 lifegain swing, or a 3/3 flying 3 drop.
I feel like a more creature based, Mid-range build is wayyyy more efficient.
This is the build I have been playing with very solid results:
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1x Ajani Steadfast
2x Ashcloud Phoenix
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Banishing Light
3x Crackling Doom
3x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
3x Lightning Strike
3x Magma Jet
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Nomad Outpost
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
2x Battlefield Forge
2x Caves of Koilos
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Temple of Triumph
2x Temple of Silence
2x Temple of Malice
SB:
4x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Despise
2x Suspension Field
2x End Hostilities
I know my mana needs some work honestly, and I think the deck might need more draw power due to the amount of times you can going into top deck mode.
I am considering running or trying Read the Bones
Also I am thinking of lowering Brimaz, the guy is awesome but I think 3 might be too many.
Perhaps even lowering Hero's Downfall in the main as well to really tamper with the removal and possibly fit in some Seekers, because I really just want to test the deck out.
In terms of 4 drop creatures I prefer Phoenix miles over Butcher, due to my removal heavy meta.
This deck is made out of cards I have available or I would probably run 3 Ashcloud's
I've also been thinking of possibly playing some evolves to really accommodate chained...but it just makes the deck so slow, and hitting threats or having answers on time really is was keeps this deck alive. The removal and threat level power.
Sorin has been very poor for this kind of mid range deck and belongs in a token deck or abzan deck.
Mardu charm has been nearly worthless. Was drop a long time ago along with Brimaz
Civilwargoat - What's your decklist with Master of the Feast? Is it more aggressive list with Bloodsoaked Champion?
For Hornet Queen, have you considered Hushwing Gryff and Bile Blight?
4 Master of the Feast
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Butcher of the Horde
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Thoughtseize
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Crackling Doom
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Stoke the Flames
3 Nomad Outpost
2 Caves of Koilos
3 Battlefield Forge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
3 Swamps
4 Mountain
1 Plains
I am trying to work Bile Blight into the sb for the hornet problem but I find it too narrow as it only hits those 2 cards and it would be the only match up I would bring them in for. Its possible that the plains should be another tri-land. The mana has been ok, but it still feels like something is a little off. Haven't considered the Gryff but it seems narrow, like Blight. Since the way my deck is configured drawing extra cards is not possible each card slot needs to be as flexible and as powerful as possible.
3 End Hostilities
2 Utter End
2 Banishing Light
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
The Champions are going to get cut because they never do what i need them to do which is to be a recurring source of damage vs control. And they have the same problem Bile blight would have, which is that they are for only one match up, that being control. I have been impressed with the Phoenix and and debating 1 Thoughtseize 2 Phoenix in their place.
Glad to see I'm not the only one getting positive results out of Master of the Feast. He's been just brutal in my testing.
Surprised to see a lack of Bile Blight in some of these lists, but maybe it's just my meta that makes it so good. Lots of green ramp and jeskai.
I know that Blight is great against the hornet tokens but getting a 1 or 2 of card to line up with their 1 or 2 of card isn't worth messing the deck up for. I am going to run no blights tomorrow night where i know there are several green devotion players and how it goes.
At the very least, bile blight hits their dorks as well. An answer to cards that comprise good starts and good endings is certainly nothing to scoff at.
Oh, just realized my post popped up right below your mention of the card. I wasn't replying specifically to you or anything. I just find Bile Blight to be really good in general. Hits all the three drops I'm actually scared of right on curve when I'm on the draw, and it keeps me aggressive on the play. Throw in the fact that it can be a huge card advantage swing, and I'm just thoroughly sold.
The card did so much work in the Jeskai decks through the PT weekend, that I am sure it would have the same results in the mardu somewhat.
Also I read people keep cutting Brimaz, I actually dont know if i can manage that! I just enjoy dropping bombs, and I feel like after wearing down
an opponents resources, and with our removal Brimaz can close out games so fast.
But then again my Mardu midrange is honestly at its core a RW splash b just for seize, dooms, and downfalls.
Sylvan Caryatid is hexproof and Courser of Kruphix is 4 toughness, so unless you're doing something ELSE into them as well, it's frustrating to say the least, especially when most of our burn spells only do 2 or 3 damage. It's been the death of me two FNM in a row. I can either waste a Heros Downfall, Crackling Doom, or Banishing light on the Courser to stall the threats/land life gain (while knowing all the decks run full playsets of both and I have no maindeck answers to Caryatid) or just hope I can deal with whatever threats DO come down. But even then, they have a 0/3 hexproof blocker and 2/4 blocker. The only real ways around them seem to be wraths or air creatures. I'm trying out a creature set next week with Goblin Rabblemaster being the only non-flyer and bringing some nice air support with Herald of Torment, Hushwing Gryff, Stormbreath Dragon, or Wingmate Roc in addition to Butcher of the Horde. With enough kill/disruption, I should be able to survive long enough to get the 5CMC threats online.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Brimaz lines up very poorly vs green creatures, like rhino, courser, and polykranous. He doesn't trade up like a rabble master can and his token alone don't do enough.
Looking over the list you posted 11 tap lands seems like too many.
The issue I have with the gryff is how little pressure he puts on your opponent. 2/1 for 3 isn't that great when the most common etb effect is a rhino drain and a hornet queen. Am i missing something about the work gryff did at the pro tour?
This is why I rely on Butcher and Master against G/x. Both cards come down at a point in the curve that belies their p/t ratio- which allows you to keep pace with the G/x accelerated threats. While they drop dorks to power out a turn three polukranos, we simply drop a 5/5 in the air to answer. Bile Blight trumps their Hornet Queen nut draws and even Arbor Colossus falls to master/butcher + burn. Meanwhile, Rabblemaster can trade up to take down a courser/caryatid, Seeker can do the same (and live). They don't even block most of the time, assuring that butcher/master is a fast clock. Lifelink jabs combined with removal and burn keep us racing just fine.
Also from my experience I have found that you need to pack an answer to Hornet Queen, because that card is devastating and showing up more and more. I can't even tell you how many times I've been completely dominating a game only to have that thing drop and then I just slowly lose the game while praying to top deck an anger. It's worth the sideboard space, because you will lose the game without an answer. I myself pack 3 Anger of the gods in the main and 3 end hostilities in the board for green devotion and more aggressive azban decks.
Just a disclaimer... these comments are directed more at creature based midrange decks than the control decks. I know alot of the builds on here are some where between.
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Seeker of the Way
4 Butcher of the Horde
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells: 18
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Strike
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Crackling Doom
3 Gods Willing
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Lands: 25
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Nomad's Outpost
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I'll be taking this to the next FNM. I know Chained to the Rocks seems sort of out of place with only 4 mountains, but with the fetching too, I'm hoping to get more use out of them. I play on holding Downfalls almost purely for Planeswalker removal and in an emergency against creatures. [Gods Willing] is very important to evade removal and get in that last damage, as unlike other midrange decks, Mardu wants to get in and get it done as soon as our fatties drop. With Wingmate Roc being picked up by many Abzan decks, I feel it would be smarter to be able to evade them and swing at their face. Chained, being cheaper than many of our other options for removal, allows us to do 1 or more other things on a turn we cast it. Or at least, that's the hope.
Lands: 25
4 Nomad's Outpost
4 Bloodstained Mire (if you have the 4th, if not run a 4th Wilds)
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Battlefield Forge
4 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (I don't think playing more than 1 of these is right, but that's just me)
That gives you 11 ways to get a mountain out, which is about the minimum I'd run if I'm wanting to use Chained.
I want to play stoke but I feel like Crackling Doom does both of the things I want stoke to do at the same time, I just prefer not casting it for full price and instead use stoke as a cool combat trick when I am nearly tapped out with tokens/seeker on defense if necessary.