@contumaz All the findings in this thread find Kiora very underwhelming and Ashiok an Allstar. Can you tell me about your choice here?
Dont think of Kiora (at least early) as a PW that is going to win the game, think of her as a 4 CMC explore that also gains you 2+ life or rebound. Late game she is a versatile "removal" spell that in 3 turns can end a game quickly.
She is really strong in some games (Azban midrange, control mirrors, Mardu super friends etc) and never dead even in games she isnt great (which makes her an easy cut for SB cards).
@contumaz All the findings in this thread find Kiora very underwhelming and Ashiok an Allstar. Can you tell me about your choice here?
I think kiora is better because it does something in your favor the moment it goes in. The fact that it let´s you draw and play an aditional land is really really great. Your lands give you lives and scry. Yes!, kiora will die but it will make an impact especially against decks with burn; you want more answers and they need to kill it. Also i like a lot silence the believers, exile is great nowadays. Kiora ramps out on it.
I´ve always liked ashiok but i think, it may not fit here. We need to gain turns or time as you may, control the board. So many times ashiok just puts 3 non-creature spells, lands, or a mystic elf that i think is not worth it. I now sometimes you get a polukranos or something big. To me it´s just too conditional.
For those running the more typical creature based version my friend playing abzan midrange just showed me a neat piece of tech in grim haruspex
Prone to removal but laughs at any sort of sweeper.
Perhaps a card that might prove useful once standard gets two orzhav sweepers in jan?
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New Jace is baaaad in this deck. A one-of Garruk is probably fine, however.
There's no reason to run Evolving Wilds over Polluted Delta or scrylands. It's probably fine as a singleton, but no more. We need to be able to play an untapped green/black source on turn two.
Against Rabble you will always take damage. I'm of the opinion that Bile Blight is where we want to be with that. We shouldn't have a much trouble landing it, either, because Rabblemaster is CMC 3 and BB is CMC 2. We will have at least one turn to get ready and have our removal live. In light of this, Ulcerate isn't quite where you want to be. Until there is a serious CMC 1 threat in the format, at least. Monastery Swiftspear, Favored Hoplite, Soldier of the Pantheon, and Bloodsoaked Champion are all very good, but removing them isn't worth three life.
Drown in Sorrow is huge against them too. There's a reason that well-performing lists tend to have 4 in the sideboard. You can go down to 3, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Kiora and Nissa were both much better before KTK dropped. They're not awful, either one of them, but they're also not the all-stars that they used to be. I personally run 2 Kiora and 1 Nissa and that's probably riiiiight where I want to be. Ashiok mainboard at 2-3 (3 preferred) is also where I want to be. He is always very good. Played on T3 with Caryatid out will really present a problem for your opponent where they are forced to make bad attacks.
Bow of Nylea is very, very good for us. Kills Hornet Queen & friends and helps out immensely in the burn matchup. There's no reason not to have two of them somewhere in your 75. If it wasn't nearly dead in the control mirror, I'd maindeck one and sideboard another. As it stands, however, two copies in the sideboard are just what the doctor ordered.
As for Thassa and Aqueous Form, I'd stay away from both. By the time we're sitting back to play a wincon, both of them are highly unnecessary.
For those running the more typical creature based version my friend playing abzan midrange just showed me a neat piece of tech in grim haruspex
Prone to removal but laughs at any sort of sweeper.
Perhaps a card that might prove useful once standard gets two orzhav sweepers in jan?
We don't really run enough guys to make Grim Haruspex profitable. That's a card that belongs in like...Mononlack Aggro or BW Warriors.
Also, you probably want to avoid talking about upcoming cards or sets. It's against the Competitive forum rules (stupid, I know).
Gotta say I'm super excited to hear back from you guys this weekend after you post your FNM results. I don't think I'll get my cards in time for this week. But I look forward to playing both versions soon. (contumaz and other)
Sadly my ability to really playtest is very minimal so over the next few weeks I don't expect great results as I learn to pilot the deck.
But I'm hopeful since everybody here does a good job of making top 4 recently!
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Against jeskai with 3 mana you can counter damage and kill a creature like rabble or mantis.
Ok, but that means you let them resolve the creature the turn before (T2-T3) because you cant run nullify (hard to cast with so many taplands and fountains) , take 1 or 3 damage (goblin token or mantis) and then take 3 damage on T3 or T4. bile blight is a T2 play so is still fast enough...
against abzan aggro you can kill flemancee or rakshasa fast an in his turn
On the draw - You can deal a T2 flemancee with ulcerate only if you put an untapped B source T1 (you run 6 untapped B source over 26 lands, 23% ). So no taplands or fountains (16 over 26 lands, 61%). Bile Blight can't do this.
On the play - you can deal with a T2 flemancee with both (Ulcerate or Bile Blight), but Ulcerate in this case is better for you. With a different manabase also Bile Blight can be good so the 3 life is really necessary?.
And yes, the lands can keep you alive.
4 lands are 8 life
3 ulcerate are 9 damage. 4 ulcerate are 12 damage.
the lands can keep you alive, but ulcerate can kill you...
Bow in this build is really amazing.
Totaly agree
There is a lot of other meta based reasons to play ulcerate but i think that is better if you test it.
My post isn't against ulcerate also because i run 2 SB and i know, the card is good.
But i agree with Tapped Out
Quote from Tapped Out »
Against Rabble you will always take damage. I'm of the opinion that Bile Blight is where we want to be with that. We shouldn't have a much trouble landing it, either, because Rabblemaster is CMC 3 and BB is CMC 2. We will have at least one turn to get ready and have our removal live. In light of this, Ulcerate isn't quite where you want to be. Until there is a serious CMC 1 threat in the format, at least. Monastery Swiftspear, Favored Hoplite, Soldier of the Pantheon, and Bloodsoaked Champion are all very good, but removing them isn't worth three life
My thoughts are:
Is too greedy run 3 ulcerate MB agaisnt aggro builds? how you define advantage/lifeloss?
Run the playset of fountain + 1 bow MB can give us enough lifegain?
In wich way run 4 Fountain MB can interact with other cards like bile blight (or nullify) with strong mana requirements? Decks like UB control can run 4 refuge + 4 fountain without many mana issues because they are bicolor but we are TRI-color and we run the same cards (more or less) + some G cards. Is it a problem?
You run 12 taplands (4 trilands + 8 temple) + 4 fountain. You play a turn behind most of the time. Is not easier smother the manabase (less CIPT lands, add painlands or fetch) and just run bile blight and nullify?
Is better run bile blight and lose some life sometimes (because of painlands/fetch) or run ulcerate and lose 3 life every single time?
@TheNoob
I agree with Tappedout, Evolving Wilds is like a worse tapland that can produce only 1 color without upside (like scry 1 or gain 1 life)
Can be fine 1-of because can search for G (because Polluted Delta can only find island or swamp).
Great thoughts!.
What happens if you start a hand against aggro with and island and two taplands and bile blight?. How often can this happen? do you take a mulligan?. If this happen you will be able to cast it only on turn 3.
If you play control with black your opponent plays around bile blight.
If you play 3 copies of a card how often can it appear in a game? 2 times will be normal, so ulcerate takes 6. But it kills one turn early. Make a 2 for 1 against aggro (hammerhand + swifspear, as an example) is worth 3 lives in my opinnion.
If U/W heroic becomes a thing (it has already made an impact in my meta, everyone is searching for the cards) ulcerate can take care of the first creatures. Please test ulcerate against this deck if you can.
Every opinion i´ve made is based in my testing against aggro and midrange decks and it is metabased. If your meta doesn´t include monored (mine has a lot) or u/w heroic (on the rise) you should play ulcerate on the SB.
I can safely say that in the last 10 games against rabble red o sligh i have won 9 times. May be i´m lucky.
Nonetheless i aggre that my list needs to be perfected. There is a particular time when i´m at 7 lands, just waiting for pla to come in. I think that i need to do something to close up the game early while not tapping my lands. Maybe sphinx?? what do you say?
If you play control with black your opponent plays around bile blight
I can't see your point,
If people can play around bile blight can't play around ulcerate?
Both are -3/-3 ...
Why is Bile Blight great? because it can destroy "x" creatures or token with the same name. Your opponent will play arround that to make the card less eficient. It also restrict us to play less spells on first turns and compete for mana with other spelss.
Again, I love bile blight, i run 2 of them. And i also love ulcerate.
What does an aggro deck against the following on the draw?
t1 ulcerate (on his turn) or despise
t2 bile blight or ulcerate
t3 downfall or sultai charm
If they want to waste a removal or burn spell on that early instead of a pump spell and hit for 1 then pass the turn for us to deal with it or counter what's next...
Late game it isn't entirely a dead card and makes akward attacks for the opponent. Plus late game we can push a couple more points of damage via morph.
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If they want to waste a removal or burn spell on that early instead of a pump spell and hit for 1 then pass the turn for us to deal with it or counter what's next...
Late game it isn't entirely a dead card and makes akward attacks for the opponent. Plus late game we can push a couple more points of damage via morph.
The main problem is that both mono red in any version or u/w heroic have evasion. The ruthless may not be able to block.
Why is Bile Blight great? because it can destroy "x" creatures or token with the same name. Your opponent will play arround that to make the card less eficient. It also restrict us to play less spells on first turns and compete for mana with other spelss.
Ok, now is clear, thanks.
Yes, the opponent can play around the "destroy "x" creatures or token with the same name" clause but, even if the opponent play around Bile Blight, is still an advantage to us.
Because he/she can't use all the cards in this hand but need to slow down, or play tight, against us.
So would not likely play 2 rabblemaster goblin, or 2 mantis rider or make hundred tokens with Akroan Crusader + jeskai ascendancy if we hold BB mana open (for ex.).
If the opponent must play tight we can force missplay and gain advantage from it.
Agree, but! the fact remains. With ulcerate whe are able to play more spells in a turn and kill faster (you didn´t address speed) also is free for delve.
Again, I love bile blight, i run 2 of them. And i also love ulcerate.
What does an aggro deck against the following on the draw?
t1 ulcerate (on his turn) or despise
t2 bile blight or ulcerate
t3 downfall or sultai charm
t1 ulcerate (on his turn) or despise (T1 B source untapped)
t2 bile blight or ulcerate (T2 another B untapped for bile blight or tapland + ulcerate)
t3 downfall or sultai charm (T3 another untapped source on t3, and for sultai charm you need BUG)
So, at best 100% untapped sources or at worse 66% (due to tapland on T2)
As i wrote before, with your manabase you can't do this with enough consistency.
61% of the time you play a turn behind due to taplands or miss bile blight due to 1 source
In your example you never miss a turn or only miss 1 on T2 (miss rate 0%-33%)
33% vs 61%
How you can do that with enough consistency?
In my opinion this is MCL scenario...
6 Untapped B source on T1 23%
Quite 1/4.
So, how you can do "t1 ulcerate (on his turn) or despise" with enough consistency if you can hit T1 B 1 time every 4?
last few points
How you can run T3 hero's downfall with enough consistency with only 14 B source?
How you can run T3 dissolve with enough consistency with only 16 U source?
Again maybe i´m lucky, but i swear i´ve never faced color problems. Although i know the manabase needs tweaking. Beign three color deck with specifics color spells can be tricky. I´been updating my manabase based on tappedout suggestions and it aint looking like the one you posted. Why don´t you make a recomendation, later i will post how my manabase is right now (i´m at work right now)
With ulcerate whe are able to play more spells in a turn and kill faster (you didn´t address speed) also is free for delve.
You can't kill faster if you are a turn behind most of the time due to manabase issues, you have the same speed (at best).
Cast a single cmc 1 spell on turn 2 or cast a single cmc 2 spell on turn 2 is the same speed. Is also the same for Delve.
On T3-T4 play cheaper spell can make the differences in the Delve count, but you need also think about win the game and not only put cards inside the GY.
As you wrote before you can usually play 2 ulcerate over the 3 MB, so play 2 cmc 1 spell during G1 (for ex.) can increase by 2 the GY, That means, your "play more spells in a turn and kill faster" can happen sometimes but is not so broken as you think.
In that case if you cast more spell in a turn is because you lost the turn before due to taplands or color screw.
Quote from contumaz »
Again maybe i´m lucky, but i swear i´ve never faced color problems. Although i know the manabase needs tweaking. Beign three color deck with specifics color spells can be tricky. I´been updating my manabase based on tappedout suggestions and it aint looking like the one you posted. Why don´t you make a recomendation, later i will post how my manabase is right now (i´m at work right now)
Sorry. probably i take the older one.
This is the last you wrote, correct me if i'm wrong.
NEW
16 Taplands 61,5%
2 Fountain 7,7%
8 other 30.8%
vs.
OLD
12 Taplands 46%
4 Fountains 15%
10 other 39%
Is better because can give you 19 B source but become slower than before...
Every bit of the discussion about ulcerate moves around the manabase at this point. I will post my latest manabase wich has been working wonders for me. It let´s me kill faster, discard and/or counter in the first turns.
Also please remember, if you run 12 taplands or 14 you probably won´t be able to cast bilbe blight on T2 unless you are willing to play a T3 tap land and leave a counter or other 3 CMC spell offline.
Also please remember, if you run 12 taplands or 14 you probably won´t be able to cast bilbe blight on T2 unless you are willing to play a T3 tap land and leave a counter or other 3 CMC spell offline.
Infact, my advice is run a manabase with max 8-10 taplands and simply run bile blight.
In that case you can also run a T3 dissolve
Is quite good (even if painful sometime) and can afford T2 bile blight (or nullify)
What do you think?
it is in fact super interesting, but i would like to see the full deck.
With that mana base no wonder you think ulcerate can take a lot of life points out of you!!.
Do you keep track of how many lifes can your lands drain?? an average at least??
Just on the top of my head; if you have mana confluence in your opening hand, i guess it can take like 4 lifes before urborg comes online. At best. With no life gain on sight that´s worrying.
Running Bile Blight as your main insurance policy vs. aggro may mean you need to tweak your manabase. I'd start with like:
3-4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malice
4 Opulent Palace
And go from there. We generally don't need blue until the later turns.
mmmmm that affects a lot the dissolve you may draw or have in hand. That´s another reason for ulcerate.
Would you share your most recent list? I might be missing something.
You don't need Dissolve mana up on turn 3, generally. Ideally, you are saving your counterspells for the late game when they try to do something big. Plus, Sylvan Caryatid really helps out with your mana.
My manabase is a little slower than the one I proposed. I'm generally not at a loss for colors with both four copies of Opulent Palace and Polluted Delta. BB on turn 2-3 is never usually an issue unless I've drawn a hand that's got like...two Temple of Mystery or something.
If they want to waste a removal or burn spell on that early instead of a pump spell and hit for 1 then pass the turn for us to deal with it or counter what's next...
Late game it isn't entirely a dead card and makes akward attacks for the opponent. Plus late game we can push a couple more points of damage via morph.
Ruthless Ripper is quite ill-suited to our deck. It's another cool card that belongs in Monoblack Aggro, if anywhere.
Running Bile Blight as your main insurance policy vs. aggro may mean you need to tweak your manabase. I'd start with like:
3-4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malice
4 Opulent Palace
And go from there. We generally don't need blue until the later turns.
mmmmm that affects a lot the dissolve you may draw or have in hand. That´s another reason for ulcerate.
Would you share your most recent list? I might be missing something.
You don't need Dissolve mana up on turn 3, generally. Ideally, you are saving your counterspells for the late game when they try to do something big. Plus, Sylvan Caryatid really helps out with your mana.
My manabase is a little slower than the one I proposed. I'm generally not at a loss for colors with both four copies of Opulent Palace and Polluted Delta. BB on turn 2-3 is never usually an issue unless I've drawn a hand that's got like...two Temple of Mystery or something.
I disagree with dissolve; i rather dissolve a T3 polukranos (phoenix or whatever) than downfall it. obviously i preffer to disdainful stroke it but i run just two. But again, your deck is pretty different.
Running Bile Blight as your main insurance policy vs. aggro may mean you need to tweak your manabase. I'd start with like:
3-4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malice
4 Opulent Palace
And go from there. We generally don't need blue until the later turns.
mmmmm that affects a lot the dissolve you may draw or have in hand. That´s another reason for ulcerate.
Would you share your most recent list? I might be missing something.
You don't need Dissolve mana up on turn 3, generally. Ideally, you are saving your counterspells for the late game when they try to do something big. Plus, Sylvan Caryatid really helps out with your mana.
My manabase is a little slower than the one I proposed. I'm generally not at a loss for colors with both four copies of Opulent Palace and Polluted Delta. BB on turn 2-3 is never usually an issue unless I've drawn a hand that's got like...two Temple of Mystery or something.
I disagree with dissolve; i rather dissolve a T3 polukranos (phoenix or whatever) than downfall it. obviously i preffer to disdainful stroke it but i run just two. But again, your deck is pretty different.
Different from yours? Or different from what we're doing here in general? It's very similar to Shaheen Soorani's list and ones that are close to it. Confer:
Running Bile Blight as your main insurance policy vs. aggro may mean you need to tweak your manabase. I'd start with like:
3-4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malice
4 Opulent Palace
And go from there. We generally don't need blue until the later turns.
mmmmm that affects a lot the dissolve you may draw or have in hand. That´s another reason for ulcerate.
Would you share your most recent list? I might be missing something.
You don't need Dissolve mana up on turn 3, generally. Ideally, you are saving your counterspells for the late game when they try to do something big. Plus, Sylvan Caryatid really helps out with your mana.
My manabase is a little slower than the one I proposed. I'm generally not at a loss for colors with both four copies of Opulent Palace and Polluted Delta. BB on turn 2-3 is never usually an issue unless I've drawn a hand that's got like...two Temple of Mystery or something.
I disagree with dissolve; i rather dissolve a T3 polukranos (phoenix or whatever) than downfall it. obviously i preffer to disdainful stroke it but i run just two. But again, your deck is pretty different.
Different from yours? Or different from what we're doing here in general? It's very similar to Shaheen Soorani's list and ones that are close to it. Confer:
Din´t mean to sound arrogant. I just wanted to follow the conversation about manabase and spells on time around the "creature less" version. In your list that changes a lot.
The format is slow enough that you just get away with incredibly stable mana bases with them in conjunction with Courser of Kruphix.
Also, I would rather Downfall an early Polukranos than Dissolve one. Dissolve should be used for things that matter more, and to be fair, I would rather sift through cards instead of immediately downfall Polukranos on turn 3 anyways. Dissolve should be reserved for things like Nissa, Xenagos, Elspeth - anything that can act as a 2 for 1 upon resolution.
Dissolve should be reserved for things like Nissa, Xenagos, Elspeth - anything that can act as a 2 for 1 upon resolution.
^ This. I think folks are too worried about having UU open on turn 3. Dissolve should be live, absolutely. Just not that friggin' early. We should be more worried about killing their mobs and/or sticking a Courser during those early turns than sitting on our heels trying to jam countermagic.
Hi guys!! just got back from FNM! guess what? i won it again!!!
The ilustration on brain maggot is amazing and i also opened a sorin! So, pretty nice FNM for me.
Introduction
I´ve been worried about the manabase issue. So i cut down one charm on the MB and added 1 Bile blight for a total of 3 + 3 ulcerate. This will give me one faster and less mana specific removal. 2 black is easy at this point.
Added Garruk, apex predator.
Added aetherspouts X 2 to SB
added whelming wave X 3 to SB
R1 won 2-0.R/G monsters. Easy. The most dreaded card in this matchup is crater claws. You MUST keep a counter in hand for it.
R2 Won 2-1.Mardu Midrange. this deck has only one disruption against us; Thoughtseize. Depending on the version pay attention. Brimaz on T3 must not be killed with downfall unless you have a way to counter the sorin in the next turn. If sorin gets in, the token will be made and then comes the roc, stormbreath or sarkhan.
R3 Won 2-1.Our dear friend mono red. Whelming wave is just fun. They must read the card and then take everything up and start over. Ulcerate and despise on time as always. Finally it happened!!!. The game that i lost was over a color screw. Starting hand with island, swamp and fountain. I draw a tap land on t4 and lost because wasn´t able to cast charm on rabblemaster. *Turning point 1!!!!!
R4 U/W Heroic. Won 2-1.
G1. First game was a blast for me. I despised his only creature, he played t3 2/2 i downfall it on sight and in response he plays god´s willing. My turn, i play kiora and by the look of his face i knew the end was coming. I counter some creatures and exile some others (silence of the believers shines against this deck). The same turn i ultimated kiora also casted garruk.
G2. Color screwed again just like the previous match!!!!!!!!!!!! F$%#$&#$ fountain!!!I didn´t draw despise or ulcerate and bile blight WAS NOT FAST ENOUGH playing two tap lands T1 and T2 against a favorited hoplite. He killed me on turn 4. *Turning point 2!!!!!!!
G3. We both draw at the top of our game.
ADVICE 1! Kill the battlewise on sight!!, that guy is one of the engines of the deck.
ADVICE 2! There´s a moment when U/W needs to kill you, because it is runing out of gas and you have 4 or more cards waiting. Don´t rush it. wait for the right moment. But be aware that an innocent 2/2 might become a 8/6 with protection against every color on a blink.
ADVICE 3! They can SB in counters.
Personal thought: I wanted the fourth ulcerate every game. * Turning point 3!!!!
After comes and goes kiora holding the fort a couple of turns, he couldn't kill me and garruk came into play. Game over.
I think i won this match on pure luck. I was able to cast an uncontested aetherspout and he draw only two god´s willing (considering all the scry and card draw that´s a few), and as i said before; ajani's presence < silence the believers.
R5 sidisi whip. We covered that before. It seems to me that they are starting to play more maulers after SB.
I´m done with the 3 fountains package.
I will put the fourth ulcerate in SB.
U/W heroic is the hardest, grindier and out of the box match so far. You never now what will happen, counters have less value against heroic. He can take your life points on a blink etc..we need ulcerare and despise to win this. (in my build of course)
Dont think of Kiora (at least early) as a PW that is going to win the game, think of her as a 4 CMC explore that also gains you 2+ life or rebound. Late game she is a versatile "removal" spell that in 3 turns can end a game quickly.
She is really strong in some games (Azban midrange, control mirrors, Mardu super friends etc) and never dead even in games she isnt great (which makes her an easy cut for SB cards).
I think kiora is better because it does something in your favor the moment it goes in. The fact that it let´s you draw and play an aditional land is really really great. Your lands give you lives and scry. Yes!, kiora will die but it will make an impact especially against decks with burn; you want more answers and they need to kill it. Also i like a lot silence the believers, exile is great nowadays. Kiora ramps out on it.
I´ve always liked ashiok but i think, it may not fit here. We need to gain turns or time as you may, control the board. So many times ashiok just puts 3 non-creature spells, lands, or a mystic elf that i think is not worth it. I now sometimes you get a polukranos or something big. To me it´s just too conditional.
i been wanted to!! I´m thinking about it.
Right now i´m testing Jace and Garruk apex.
Prone to removal but laughs at any sort of sweeper.
Perhaps a card that might prove useful once standard gets two orzhav sweepers in jan?
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
There's no reason to run Evolving Wilds over Polluted Delta or scrylands. It's probably fine as a singleton, but no more. We need to be able to play an untapped green/black source on turn two.
Against Rabble you will always take damage. I'm of the opinion that Bile Blight is where we want to be with that. We shouldn't have a much trouble landing it, either, because Rabblemaster is CMC 3 and BB is CMC 2. We will have at least one turn to get ready and have our removal live. In light of this, Ulcerate isn't quite where you want to be. Until there is a serious CMC 1 threat in the format, at least. Monastery Swiftspear, Favored Hoplite, Soldier of the Pantheon, and Bloodsoaked Champion are all very good, but removing them isn't worth three life.
Drown in Sorrow is huge against them too. There's a reason that well-performing lists tend to have 4 in the sideboard. You can go down to 3, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Kiora and Nissa were both much better before KTK dropped. They're not awful, either one of them, but they're also not the all-stars that they used to be. I personally run 2 Kiora and 1 Nissa and that's probably riiiiight where I want to be. Ashiok mainboard at 2-3 (3 preferred) is also where I want to be. He is always very good. Played on T3 with Caryatid out will really present a problem for your opponent where they are forced to make bad attacks.
Bow of Nylea is very, very good for us. Kills Hornet Queen & friends and helps out immensely in the burn matchup. There's no reason not to have two of them somewhere in your 75. If it wasn't nearly dead in the control mirror, I'd maindeck one and sideboard another. As it stands, however, two copies in the sideboard are just what the doctor ordered.
As for Thassa and Aqueous Form, I'd stay away from both. By the time we're sitting back to play a wincon, both of them are highly unnecessary.
Also, you probably want to avoid talking about upcoming cards or sets. It's against the Competitive forum rules (stupid, I know).
Gotta say I'm super excited to hear back from you guys this weekend after you post your FNM results. I don't think I'll get my cards in time for this week. But I look forward to playing both versions soon. (contumaz and other)
Sadly my ability to really playtest is very minimal so over the next few weeks I don't expect great results as I learn to pilot the deck.
But I'm hopeful since everybody here does a good job of making top 4 recently!
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Great thoughts!.
What happens if you start a hand against aggro with and island and two taplands and bile blight?. How often can this happen? do you take a mulligan?. If this happen you will be able to cast it only on turn 3.
If you play control with black your opponent plays around bile blight.
If you play 3 copies of a card how often can it appear in a game? 2 times will be normal, so ulcerate takes 6. But it kills one turn early. Make a 2 for 1 against aggro (hammerhand + swifspear, as an example) is worth 3 lives in my opinnion.
If U/W heroic becomes a thing (it has already made an impact in my meta, everyone is searching for the cards) ulcerate can take care of the first creatures. Please test ulcerate against this deck if you can.
Every opinion i´ve made is based in my testing against aggro and midrange decks and it is metabased. If your meta doesn´t include monored (mine has a lot) or u/w heroic (on the rise) you should play ulcerate on the SB.
I can safely say that in the last 10 games against rabble red o sligh i have won 9 times. May be i´m lucky.
Nonetheless i aggre that my list needs to be perfected. There is a particular time when i´m at 7 lands, just waiting for pla to come in. I think that i need to do something to close up the game early while not tapping my lands. Maybe sphinx?? what do you say?
3-4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malice
4 Opulent Palace
And go from there. We generally don't need blue until the later turns.
mmmmm that affects a lot the dissolve you may draw or have in hand. That´s another reason for ulcerate.
Would you share your most recent list? I might be missing something.
Why is Bile Blight great? because it can destroy "x" creatures or token with the same name. Your opponent will play arround that to make the card less eficient. It also restrict us to play less spells on first turns and compete for mana with other spelss.
Again, I love bile blight, i run 2 of them. And i also love ulcerate.
What does an aggro deck against the following on the draw?
t1 ulcerate (on his turn) or despise
t2 bile blight or ulcerate
t3 downfall or sultai charm
If they want to waste a removal or burn spell on that early instead of a pump spell and hit for 1 then pass the turn for us to deal with it or counter what's next...
Late game it isn't entirely a dead card and makes akward attacks for the opponent. Plus late game we can push a couple more points of damage via morph.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
The main problem is that both mono red in any version or u/w heroic have evasion. The ruthless may not be able to block.
frenzied goblin
Hammerhand
stratus walk
aqueous form
etc...
Agree, but! the fact remains. With ulcerate whe are able to play more spells in a turn and kill faster (you didn´t address speed) also is free for delve.
Again maybe i´m lucky, but i swear i´ve never faced color problems. Although i know the manabase needs tweaking. Beign three color deck with specifics color spells can be tricky. I´been updating my manabase based on tappedout suggestions and it aint looking like the one you posted. Why don´t you make a recomendation, later i will post how my manabase is right now (i´m at work right now)
Every bit of the discussion about ulcerate moves around the manabase at this point. I will post my latest manabase wich has been working wonders for me. It let´s me kill faster, discard and/or counter in the first turns.
Also please remember, if you run 12 taplands or 14 you probably won´t be able to cast bilbe blight on T2 unless you are willing to play a T3 tap land and leave a counter or other 3 CMC spell offline.
it is in fact super interesting, but i would like to see the full deck.
With that mana base no wonder you think ulcerate can take a lot of life points out of you!!.
Do you keep track of how many lifes can your lands drain?? an average at least??
Just on the top of my head; if you have mana confluence in your opening hand, i guess it can take like 4 lifes before urborg comes online. At best. With no life gain on sight that´s worrying.
My manabase is a little slower than the one I proposed. I'm generally not at a loss for colors with both four copies of Opulent Palace and Polluted Delta. BB on turn 2-3 is never usually an issue unless I've drawn a hand that's got like...two Temple of Mystery or something.
Anyway:
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Planeswalkers (6):
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants & Sorceries (19):
1 Aetherspouts
3 Bile Blight
2 Dig Through Time
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
4 Sultai Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Forest
2 Island
3 Swamp
4 Opulent Palace
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bow of Nylea
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dissolve
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Negate
3 Nylea's Disciple
1 Phenax, God of Deception
Ruthless Ripper is quite ill-suited to our deck. It's another cool card that belongs in Monoblack Aggro, if anywhere.
First of all, your deck is really different.
I disagree with dissolve; i rather dissolve a T3 polukranos (phoenix or whatever) than downfall it. obviously i preffer to disdainful stroke it but i run just two. But again, your deck is pretty different.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=75983
Din´t mean to sound arrogant. I just wanted to follow the conversation about manabase and spells on time around the "creature less" version. In your list that changes a lot.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
May the God(s) of Magic smile upon you.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
The format is slow enough that you just get away with incredibly stable mana bases with them in conjunction with Courser of Kruphix.
Also, I would rather Downfall an early Polukranos than Dissolve one. Dissolve should be used for things that matter more, and to be fair, I would rather sift through cards instead of immediately downfall Polukranos on turn 3 anyways. Dissolve should be reserved for things like Nissa, Xenagos, Elspeth - anything that can act as a 2 for 1 upon resolution.
The ilustration on brain maggot is amazing and i also opened a sorin! So, pretty nice FNM for me.
Introduction
I´ve been worried about the manabase issue. So i cut down one charm on the MB and added 1 Bile blight for a total of 3 + 3 ulcerate. This will give me one faster and less mana specific removal. 2 black is easy at this point.
Added Garruk, apex predator.
Added aetherspouts X 2 to SB
added whelming wave X 3 to SB
Manabase:
matches
R1 won 2-0.R/G monsters. Easy. The most dreaded card in this matchup is crater claws. You MUST keep a counter in hand for it.
R2 Won 2-1.Mardu Midrange. this deck has only one disruption against us; Thoughtseize. Depending on the version pay attention. Brimaz on T3 must not be killed with downfall unless you have a way to counter the sorin in the next turn. If sorin gets in, the token will be made and then comes the roc, stormbreath or sarkhan.
R3 Won 2-1.Our dear friend mono red. Whelming wave is just fun. They must read the card and then take everything up and start over. Ulcerate and despise on time as always. Finally it happened!!!. The game that i lost was over a color screw. Starting hand with island, swamp and fountain. I draw a tap land on t4 and lost because wasn´t able to cast charm on rabblemaster. *Turning point 1!!!!!
R4 U/W Heroic. Won 2-1.
G1. First game was a blast for me. I despised his only creature, he played t3 2/2 i downfall it on sight and in response he plays god´s willing. My turn, i play kiora and by the look of his face i knew the end was coming. I counter some creatures and exile some others (silence of the believers shines against this deck). The same turn i ultimated kiora also casted garruk.
G2. Color screwed again just like the previous match!!!!!!!!!!!! F$%#$&#$ fountain!!!I didn´t draw despise or ulcerate and bile blight WAS NOT FAST ENOUGH playing two tap lands T1 and T2 against a favorited hoplite. He killed me on turn 4. *Turning point 2!!!!!!!
G3. We both draw at the top of our game.
ADVICE 1! Kill the battlewise on sight!!, that guy is one of the engines of the deck.
ADVICE 2! There´s a moment when U/W needs to kill you, because it is runing out of gas and you have 4 or more cards waiting. Don´t rush it. wait for the right moment. But be aware that an innocent 2/2 might become a 8/6 with protection against every color on a blink.
ADVICE 3! They can SB in counters.
Personal thought: I wanted the fourth ulcerate every game. * Turning point 3!!!!
After comes and goes kiora holding the fort a couple of turns, he couldn't kill me and garruk came into play. Game over.
I think i won this match on pure luck. I was able to cast an uncontested aetherspout and he draw only two god´s willing (considering all the scry and card draw that´s a few), and as i said before; ajani's presence < silence the believers.
R5 sidisi whip. We covered that before. It seems to me that they are starting to play more maulers after SB.
I´m done with the 3 fountains package.
I will put the fourth ulcerate in SB.
U/W heroic is the hardest, grindier and out of the box match so far. You never now what will happen, counters have less value against heroic. He can take your life points on a blink etc..we need ulcerare and despise to win this. (in my build of course)