Vault is one of the best cards vs Mardu and I wouldn't SB it out, Aetherspouts is also very good vs them. Negate seems bad in the matchup unless you expect them to bring in Planeswalkers out of the SB, and if that's the case then the probably are cutting some of their low drops and you won't need all 4 Drowns.
I'd bring in 2 Negate, 3 Drown, and 1 Aetherspouts and keep the land in as I don't think you can ever afford to SB out lands. If they're on Wingmate Roc then Silence the Believers is also good to bring in.
Fair enough on the vault. I bring out a vault against jeskai (The maraud SB was based on Jeskai) just because it is so slow vs them but perhaps thats not the case with mardu. I thought negate because of hoardling outburst, walkers, chain to rock, and face burn (if necessary). perhaps not all four are needed but I think there's merit in bringing in some number (maybe 1-2?). And yeah perhaps the right number of drown is 3? When I see outburst/rabblemaster I instinctively just want to grab all the drowns! Those plus some lists run seeker make me think that drowns are always gonne be good, but maybe 3 is a better number in this MU. I feel like the MU is cake if I shut those cards down and control planes walkers. Maybe that's an oversimplification? Again this SB was based on Jeskai in which I bring a my 27th land out because I side out a lot of high CMC and bring in lower CMC stuff so I can justify it IMO. Here I think you're right and it stays because the same rule doesn't apply. Regardless, thanks for the feedback, I'll revisit and change it up a bit.
I like PLA in the mirror, I wouldn't side it out.
The reason I traded for Sphinx is that the CMC is lower, allowing me to cast and hold more land up to protect. A creature with such high CMC like PLA I have found to be hard to protect at times against decks like Azban. Perhaps this is less worrisome in the mirror? Its almost six and half dozen the other as far as I can see without having played this MU much. One you can get on the board without worry, the other is easier to keep on the board once its there. I just haven't honestly been able to test this MU unfortunately.
Thanks for all the feedback!
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
Mainboard sultai charms? Mainboard reclamation sages? Pardon my ignorance but is that really happening? If it is and our vault gets blown out (the only thing those two cards can do to us) they spend the turn not playing a threat. Vault is one of our better cards atm, but losing a vault is not the end of the game. If vault is your only play you're doing it wrong or you need to get lucky anyways.
With all the mainboard Sultai Charm's and Reclamation Sage's running around how well positioned is this deck.
You now have worse matchups across the board due to people playing artifact/enchantment hate in increased numbers and it's not even directed at you personally. Whip of Erebos is one of if not the strongest card in standard atm and the spillover from people trying to combat it just so happens to hit one of your most important cards.
If the deck struggled to put up wins in a largely midrange field then I'd be doubtful of it's viability with the increasing popularity of Heroic and Jeskai strategies.
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Brilliant ideas are stupid ideas that worked - Patrick Chapin
Many games I won by milling my opponents deck with Ashiok. Another incredible card in this deck is Jace, the Living Guildpact. Not only increase my Delve in a amazing speed, but the possibility to choose my next draw. I think everyone should try at least one Jace.
Liliana is good too, she can control my opponents hand and can tutor everything I need, without the use of Dig Through Time. And every time I ult her, my opponent concedes the game.
Hi guys! I need your help. I'm going to participate at an incoming Grand Prix this coming Saturday.
Would like to check with you all which of the two decks below would best be used in a GP event. And if there should be adjustments be made to the main board and sideboard
I would hesitate to cut the murk lurkers from the side. You're running a pretty different list from mine however, I found the lurkers to be invaluable against Jeskai tokens which is pretty relevant (especially in my meta). This MU is pretty awful for me G1 if they have a halfway decent hand but G2 and G3 I have never lost because of the great SBing options. Murk Lurkers have really gone the distance for me against them. It draws their removal (away from your head) gains you life, and is an amazing blocker. I run 3 and its just been great in my testing. Perhaps your list handles the MU better but that's just my 2 cents. I've also been looking at bringing them in against the mirror in hopes that they side a lot of removal against me. I don't like to play the waiting game against control so I'd like to throw a few more threats in to keep them on their heals. IN the control mirror, a 2/4 is a decent win-con
Bile blights: I wouldn't run less than 4 MB. With so many violent outburst, rabble master, and raise the alarm going around, its just too good. Its even good against heroic if you can get it off early (have to be careful on this one, their critters get out of reach quick). I have just loved this card so far.
The 2 creatures seem like a lot of wishful thinking. You're gonna need a good reason to take -1/-1 to all opponent's creatures, over Scry 3, but if you can then it works. The Elemental seems more suited in a deck that is expecting blockers, rather than the defensive deck like this.
And Temporal Trespass seems good. It just is making those 4 Digs much worse.
That's a hard call. I think there's a larger faction that's behind the ashiok build (for reasons that ironically no long valid). Perhaps 60-40 or 55-45 split, whith the Ashiok build being favored. The point of the Ashiok build was to help shore up the aggro matchups, but sligh style decks have mostly gone the way of the wind (for tokens/heroic), so the PLA build seems fairly favorable, but I might be mistaken. Maybe someone else has some input.
I would stay off this deck, if you can help it, to be honest. Its threats, mana and spells are all awkward. I also find Ashiok to be a fairly questionable card, as much as I love her.
I agree that this deck might be poorly placed right now.
My current question is, is Bile Blight still the right main deck? Aggro has fallen away. It rarely works against W/U heroic. I rarely get it to take 2 of the same creature - elvish mystic usually. Sure, Mardu is still running a bunch of tokens, but Negate would help there, and drown in sorrow takes out the rabblemaster with the tokens. I just feel like BileBlight is under-performing in the current meta (that I am seeing) and that maybe main-deck Murderous Cuts or more Silence the Believers might be better choices.
That said, I feel that the deck needs a bit more 1 - for - 2 options to keep it's head above water. Of course, Bileblight is one of the few early 1 - for - 2 cards we have, but I find it is frequently not doing that job.
taigam's scheming. The thought process here was to replace the divinations. It doesn't draw a card, but it does set up quite a few good draws. The main idea was to either find land early or hide land late. I can't say it did much. I had a few games where I needed land and saw 5 non-lands. Forcing myself to throw a bunch of good stuff into the GY hurts. It helps with DTT of course, but, meh. I couldn't really tell you how it helped with the late game as I have done so poorly lately that the few times I got to the late game I didn't see it. I am not convinced it is a bad idea, but I have since cut it. In theory it also pulls off the interpret the signs combo by helping set up the available high casting cost cards. That rarely happened, and rarely mattered.
dead drop I had thought that with the reduction in aggro this card might have become more playable. Ignoring the trouble with DTT on delve resources it still wasn't very good. Frequently they had a bunch of junk creatures to sac instead of big stuff. It actually could help against W/U or combo, but again, I can't say it worked out.
I haven't myself tried Treasure Cruise yet. But I think it might be time to reevaluate it in place of DTT. Of course, taigam's scheming is part of what made me think of TC, but that was kinda weird - TS for card selection and TC for card draw to replace DTT doing both. So, what I mean is, TC just as a replacement for DTT and no taigam's scheming.
Bile Blight is pretty important, I think. Yes, Drown in Sorrow takes care of tokens and small creatures better, but Bile Blight can serve as a 2-mana removal spell against a few important creatures (Sidisi, Fleecemane Lion, Mantis Rider). It also gives us a little bit of leeway on those 2 toughness guys that grow larger (heroic, prowess), and of course, instant over sorcery speed. I like it as a 4-of main.
Taigam's Scheming is just a bad card. I don't think you want that anywhere near your 75. You don't need to go out of your way to fuel delve; just throw in some fetchlands and play magic. You may run out of fuel in your graveyard, but I find that scenario more appealing than playing a card that doesn't do anything. If it cantriped, it'd be viable.
[card]Dead Drop[card] seems poorly positioned with the amount of tokens running around. Heroic is the only matchup where I'd actively want the card.
Taigram's Scheming isn't very good as we already run scry lands, dissolve, and Fetchlands shuffle our library anyways. Dead drop is okay in the SB if you see a ton of Heroic but I wouldn't run it maindeck because as above, tokens are rampant. Treasure Cruise is hardly ever better than DTT, we are normally looking for specific answers rather than a whole ton of steam, the ability to take the 2 best out of 7 is much more reliable than hoping to get anything from the top 3. I've been getting the same results from bile blight, it never really 2 for 1's ever since Jeskai stopped running Mantis Riders and Heroic always has protection and they don't normally play the same creature. I've been playing Nullify in its place and have liked it much better. Sometimes mana is a little annoying but that's been the same with Bile Blight anyways. It still hits all those nasty creatures but also hits siege rhino and everything else with higher toughness. I think ITS is a fun 1-of though would be much better at instant speed. I don't like tapping out to play it so I just keep the 4 DTT.
Question, will Silumgar, the Drifting Death have a place in this deck? Possibly in the side board? Sure the clock is horrible, but he is very difficult to get rid of and deals with tokens.
In the Standard forum, new card discussion is only allowed in this forum. Warning issued. -- Lugger
Question, will Silumgar, the Drifting Death have a place in this deck? Possibly in the side board? Sure the clock is horrible, but he is very difficult to get rid of and deals with tokens.
In the Standard forum, new card discussion is only allowed in this forum. Warning issued. -- Lugger
Then don't post the cards on the website if you don't want them discussed.
And it depends if we move away from Vault, and I doubt that happens completely. I could see running 1 in the SB but it won't see much play IMO. It also dies with Ugin
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My guess is that for the remainder of the deck's life, it will cut to 1 vault that will be used as a 9 cmc panic button for lategame powerhouses/enchantments that prove problematic to deal with otherwise. Vault is just so terribly awkward, I can't imagine it won't be replaced.
Vault is awkward if you're looking for an immediate wrath effect. Vault is quite good if you're using it as a reset button that you want to sit on the board until you need it. I think it's at least a 2 of going forward, maybe even more copies than that if the dragon/non dragon clause of Crux of Fate proves too restrictive.
Ive moved away from Bile blight, I still have 1 in the main and 1 in the sb. Instead I run two nullifys which a lot of the time can serve the same purpose as bile blight. I think bile blight is better if you know your meta has a lot of aggro. But as it stands now, if your going into the unknown there are a whole lot more mid range running around then aggro imo.
Fair enough on the vault. I bring out a vault against jeskai (The maraud SB was based on Jeskai) just because it is so slow vs them but perhaps thats not the case with mardu. I thought negate because of hoardling outburst, walkers, chain to rock, and face burn (if necessary). perhaps not all four are needed but I think there's merit in bringing in some number (maybe 1-2?). And yeah perhaps the right number of drown is 3? When I see outburst/rabblemaster I instinctively just want to grab all the drowns! Those plus some lists run seeker make me think that drowns are always gonne be good, but maybe 3 is a better number in this MU. I feel like the MU is cake if I shut those cards down and control planes walkers. Maybe that's an oversimplification? Again this SB was based on Jeskai in which I bring a my 27th land out because I side out a lot of high CMC and bring in lower CMC stuff so I can justify it IMO. Here I think you're right and it stays because the same rule doesn't apply. Regardless, thanks for the feedback, I'll revisit and change it up a bit.
The reason I traded for Sphinx is that the CMC is lower, allowing me to cast and hold more land up to protect. A creature with such high CMC like PLA I have found to be hard to protect at times against decks like Azban. Perhaps this is less worrisome in the mirror? Its almost six and half dozen the other as far as I can see without having played this MU much. One you can get on the board without worry, the other is easier to keep on the board once its there. I just haven't honestly been able to test this MU unfortunately.
Thanks for all the feedback!
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
You now have worse matchups across the board due to people playing artifact/enchantment hate in increased numbers and it's not even directed at you personally. Whip of Erebos is one of if not the strongest card in standard atm and the spillover from people trying to combat it just so happens to hit one of your most important cards.
If the deck struggled to put up wins in a largely midrange field then I'd be doubtful of it's viability with the increasing popularity of Heroic and Jeskai strategies.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
4 Ashiok, the Nightmare Weaver
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dig Throught Time
2 Bile Blight
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Whelming Wave
1 Villainous Wealth
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Polluted Delta
2 Radiant Fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Island
3 Swamp
2 Jorubai Murk Lurker
2 Despise
2 Sultai Charm
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Aetherspouts
1 Whelming Wave
1 Perilous Vault
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1st at FNM tonight with this list. Whelming Wave is insane against u/w heroic and token decks and mondo combos with Pearl Lake Ancient and Kiora, the Crashing Wave. Also, Villainous Wealth has been an all-star. Considering cutting the Jorubai Murk Lurkers in the side, but not sure what to replace them with. Bile Blight?
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
4x Polluted Delta
2x Radiant Fountain
6x Island
5x Swamp
4x Dismal Backwater
4x Temple of Deceit
1x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (02)
2x Pearl Lake Ancient
Spells (26)
1x AEtherspouts
1x Drown in Sorrow
4x Bile Blight
2x Thoughtseize
4x Dissolve
2x Jace's Ingenuity
2x Disdainful Stroke
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Dig Through Time
2x Murderous Cut
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Jace, the Living Guildpact
1x Liliana Vess
3 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Void Snare
2 Perilous Vault
4 Negate
3 Silence the Believers
Many games I won by milling my opponents deck with Ashiok. Another incredible card in this deck is Jace, the Living Guildpact. Not only increase my Delve in a amazing speed, but the possibility to choose my next draw. I think everyone should try at least one Jace.
Liliana is good too, she can control my opponents hand and can tutor everything I need, without the use of Dig Through Time. And every time I ult her, my opponent concedes the game.
Would like to check with you all which of the two decks below would best be used in a GP event. And if there should be adjustments be made to the main board and sideboard
Appreciate any advice you can give me. Thanks!
DECK 1
4x Polluted Delta
4x Temple of Deceit
1x Temple of Malady
4x Dismal Backwater
1x Opulent Palace
2x Radiant Fountain
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5x Island
5x Swamp
Win Condition (4)
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Pearl Lake Ancient
1x Divination
3x Jace's Ingenuity
3x Dig Through Time
Counterspell/Disruption (7)
4x Dissolve
1x Disdainful Stroke
2x Thoughtseize
Removal (15)
4x Bile Blight
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Drown in Sorrow
4x Perilous Vault
1x Aetherspouts
1x Cranial Archive
2x Disdainful Stroke
3x Negate
2x Jorubai Murk Lurker
2x Pharika's Cure
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Silence the Believers
2x Prognostic Sphinx
DECK 2
5 Island
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
3 Radiant Fountain
Creatures (3)
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
Spells (31)
1 Divination
2 Jace’s Ingenuity
4 Dig Through Time
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Aetherspouts
3 Disdainful Stroke
4 Dissolve
3 Perilous Vault
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Bile Blight
2 Silence the Believers
3 Hero’s Downfall
4 Pharika’s Cure
1 Drown in Sorrow
4 Jorubai Murk Lurker
2 Despise
2 Negate
2 Thoughtseize
First of all, congratulations on the win!
I would hesitate to cut the murk lurkers from the side. You're running a pretty different list from mine however, I found the lurkers to be invaluable against Jeskai tokens which is pretty relevant (especially in my meta). This MU is pretty awful for me G1 if they have a halfway decent hand but G2 and G3 I have never lost because of the great SBing options. Murk Lurkers have really gone the distance for me against them. It draws their removal (away from your head) gains you life, and is an amazing blocker. I run 3 and its just been great in my testing. Perhaps your list handles the MU better but that's just my 2 cents. I've also been looking at bringing them in against the mirror in hopes that they side a lot of removal against me. I don't like to play the waiting game against control so I'd like to throw a few more threats in to keep them on their heals. IN the control mirror, a 2/4 is a decent win-con
Bile blights: I wouldn't run less than 4 MB. With so many violent outburst, rabble master, and raise the alarm going around, its just too good. Its even good against heroic if you can get it off early (have to be careful on this one, their critters get out of reach quick). I have just loved this card so far.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
The 2 creatures seem like a lot of wishful thinking. You're gonna need a good reason to take -1/-1 to all opponent's creatures, over Scry 3, but if you can then it works. The Elemental seems more suited in a deck that is expecting blockers, rather than the defensive deck like this.
And Temporal Trespass seems good. It just is making those 4 Digs much worse.
By all means start a thread in SNCD and speculate away!
I would stay off this deck, if you can help it, to be honest. Its threats, mana and spells are all awkward. I also find Ashiok to be a fairly questionable card, as much as I love her.
My current question is, is Bile Blight still the right main deck? Aggro has fallen away. It rarely works against W/U heroic. I rarely get it to take 2 of the same creature - elvish mystic usually. Sure, Mardu is still running a bunch of tokens, but Negate would help there, and drown in sorrow takes out the rabblemaster with the tokens. I just feel like BileBlight is under-performing in the current meta (that I am seeing) and that maybe main-deck Murderous Cuts or more Silence the Believers might be better choices.
That said, I feel that the deck needs a bit more 1 - for - 2 options to keep it's head above water. Of course, Bileblight is one of the few early 1 - for - 2 cards we have, but I find it is frequently not doing that job.
I have tried a few other things recently.
taigam's scheming. The thought process here was to replace the divinations. It doesn't draw a card, but it does set up quite a few good draws. The main idea was to either find land early or hide land late. I can't say it did much. I had a few games where I needed land and saw 5 non-lands. Forcing myself to throw a bunch of good stuff into the GY hurts. It helps with DTT of course, but, meh. I couldn't really tell you how it helped with the late game as I have done so poorly lately that the few times I got to the late game I didn't see it. I am not convinced it is a bad idea, but I have since cut it. In theory it also pulls off the interpret the signs combo by helping set up the available high casting cost cards. That rarely happened, and rarely mattered.
dead drop I had thought that with the reduction in aggro this card might have become more playable. Ignoring the trouble with DTT on delve resources it still wasn't very good. Frequently they had a bunch of junk creatures to sac instead of big stuff. It actually could help against W/U or combo, but again, I can't say it worked out.
I haven't myself tried Treasure Cruise yet. But I think it might be time to reevaluate it in place of DTT. Of course, taigam's scheming is part of what made me think of TC, but that was kinda weird - TS for card selection and TC for card draw to replace DTT doing both. So, what I mean is, TC just as a replacement for DTT and no taigam's scheming.
Taigam's Scheming is just a bad card. I don't think you want that anywhere near your 75. You don't need to go out of your way to fuel delve; just throw in some fetchlands and play magic. You may run out of fuel in your graveyard, but I find that scenario more appealing than playing a card that doesn't do anything. If it cantriped, it'd be viable.
[card]Dead Drop[card] seems poorly positioned with the amount of tokens running around. Heroic is the only matchup where I'd actively want the card.
I like Treasure Cruise as a supplement to Dig Through Time. I'm running a 3(DTT)/1(TC) split right now. I haven't actually tried playing Interpret the Signs.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Find me on TappedOut also!
Trade with me!! Always in search of cards!
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
In the Standard forum, new card discussion is only allowed in this forum. Warning issued. -- Lugger
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Then don't post the cards on the website if you don't want them discussed.
And it depends if we move away from Vault, and I doubt that happens completely. I could see running 1 in the SB but it won't see much play IMO. It also dies with Ugin
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control