Divination is typically fine regardless. It's the kind of card that you cut on the draw if you have nothing else to cut.
Liliana comes out against pretty much any matchup that's not the mirror, abzan, or mardu midrange I would say. Seems too slow against jeskai tokens/burn and the heroic decks. Be sure to side out interpret the signs with her as well.
I cut the Signs for a 27th land and it feels better.
So Ashiok ever come out? Maybe cut one of them on the draw?
I cut one Ashiok on the draw, only if I really need to. It's fine because after sideboard you can typically side in more win conditions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: UB Control
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
Vault and pass seems pretty safe. If they utter end your second vault, then it's pretty rough. On the other hand though, downfalling Elspeth still puts you on a 2 turn clock unless you expect to find bile blight with your divination. I'd rather force them to have the second utter end than try to dig two cards deep for a bile blight.
Either play also leaves you dead to burn, so that's out of the question.
Additionally, if you have enough fuel for downfall + dig through time, that's probably the ultimate play. It allows you to leave up dissolve mana on their turn and lets you dig 7 deep for bile blight, which is pretty good.
This was an interesting decision I had today, tell me what play you make and why so we all can learn from it.
Me
Hand: Divination, Hero's Downfall, Two Dissolve, Perilous Vault, Dig Through Time
In Play: 4 U/B Duals, 2 Swamp
Life: 6
Opponent
In Play: Elspeth at 5, 3 tokens, 6 mana untapped
Life: 20
Relevant Cards Played so Far: Utter Ended Vault 2 turns ago
It's my turn, opponent on Mardu with mana open, hasn't played any burn all game, has shown one Utter End.
What play do you make?
1. Divination and then Downfall Elspeth
2. Play Vault and pass
3. Other?
Really interesting post and productive in this sort of forum.
I think I would 2. play vault and pass. You lose to two things. Lightning Strike and Utter End. Both 1 and 2, leave you dead to Lightning Strike. Downfalling and leaving mana open doesn't leave you dead to Lightning Strike but I'm not sure if this is Mardu midrange or control, plus you need to find a way to clean up these tokens and "scry 1" off of Dissolve may or may not get it done. However, under 1 and 3, you have to find an answer to the tokens -- Bile Blight or the like. I like the odds on putting him on another Utter End rather than require us to find a Bile Blight with either Divination or Dig Through Time. I'd only put him on 1 Utter Ends if this is game one. If this is game two I probably would only put him on 2 Utter Ends at most. The card is super inefficient and only really good when they managae to pull ahead and expect you to have Perilous Vault.
1. is by far the worst option.
I think Downfall and Dissolve is a fair line, although one I wouldn't take.
Sorry I had only 3 cards in the graveyard so I couldn't Downfall and Dig. This was also game 1 so I assumed he only had 1, maybe 2 Utter End in his 60.
I ended up playing Downfall and Divination. He attacked me to 3 and played Hordeling Outburst. I ended up Digging main-phase and found one of my 2 MB Drown in Sorrow. I stabalized from their with the 2 Dissolve and Vault in my hand, drawing a Radiant Fountain for insurance.
After reviewing I believe playing the Vault was probably safer as I assumed he didn't have any burn in hand or he would of played it earlier. I think knowing I still had 2 Drown and 4 Blight in my deck that playing to that out was fine, but Vault was probably correct.
I ended up playing Downfall and Divination. He attacked me to 3 and played Hordeling Outburst. I ended up Digging main-phase and found one of my 2 MB Drown in Sorrow. I stabalized from their with the 2 Dissolve and Vault in my hand, drawing a Radiant Fountain for insurance.
Ah, well, would've been nice to know. Divination probably was fine then and not the worst play, since you knew your outs were Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow (6 total?). Whereas Divination for just Bile Blight seems loose.
I ended up playing Downfall and Divination. He attacked me to 3 and played Hordeling Outburst. I ended up Digging main-phase and found one of my 2 MB Drown in Sorrow. I stabalized from their with the 2 Dissolve and Vault in my hand, drawing a Radiant Fountain for insurance.
Ah, well, would've been nice to know. Divination probably was fine then and not the worst play, since you knew your outs were Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow (6 total?). Whereas Divination for just Bile Blight seems loose.
yeah 2 MB Drown is standard in Sullivan's list. I figured I had enough outs that taking the slightly riskier play gave me a better chance in the long run than just playing Vault.
Beat PLA U/B control and Mardu Control. Got a bye as well for being late (lucky me). I got absolutely CRUSHED by a pro brew Jeskai ascendancy / token / burn deck. I got slaughtered, I had no idea what I was doing. It was like I was having sex for the first time. I need more practice against that matchup but otherwise I feel like I am pretty confidant against most other decks.
After the last game I was finally inspired to put in vaults in my deck.
-2 nullify ( did nothing the whole time, ended up dead because no UU a few times)
SB 1 Silence (love this card but I can now afford to have 1 MB because of vaults)
+3 vault
I feel like im not really taking anything away by adding the vaults, but now I can dial 1800 VAULT INSURANCE
With how big Sidisi Whip and Jeskai Tokens are getting are narrow cards like Gainsay and Dark Betrayal worth running or do we need our SB to be more of a catch-all?
With how big Sidisi Whip and Jeskai Tokens are getting are narrow cards like Gainsay and Dark Betrayal worth running or do we need our SB to be more of a catch-all?
Dark Betrayal seems a bit narrow still. You hit Doomwake and Sidisi, but miss on everything else they play. It's not a good solution to the zombie token engine created by sidisi and doesn't touch hornet queen at all. I would rather play stuff like disdainful stroke.
I also don't see gainsay being much better than just running negate. What blue creatures are you trying to hit?
So I've been playing Sullivan's list for awhile and am pretty good at SB'ing now, the only cards I'm not sure when to SB out are the 2 Divination, 4 Ashiok, and 1 Liliana.
- Do Ashiok ever come out? Vs say like Jeskai Tokens to Sphinx and Pearl Lake come in instead as Ashiok steals nothing and can die easily to burn?
- Divination seems decent on the play but on the draw seems fairly slow. Seems good vs aggro to help find drown but vs midrange I'd rather SB in another Ingenuity.
- Liliana come out vs aggro?
Ashiok never leaves. If they have little to no creatures, you basically try to mill them out, if not get close. Against those decks, you board in Prognasty and/or PLA when appropriate.
You generally don't take Divination out ever. If you need to remove draw, you take out Interpet the Signs and Jace's Ingenuity.
And yes, Liliana comes out against Jeskai Aggro, Mardu (or any R/W/x tokens/aggro decks), and Mono Red.
Here's some examples of my SBing with some of those cards:
Against Mardu
+1 Pharika's Cure
+1 Drown In Sorrow
+1 Silence the Believers
-1 Interpret the Signs
-1 Liliana Vess
-1 Jace's Ingenuity
Against Red
+1 Pharika's Cure
+1 Drown In Sorrow
+1 Silence the Believers
+2 Prognostic Sphinx
-2 Perilous Vault
-1 Interpret the Signs
-1 Liliana Vess
-1 Jace's Ingenuity
How would you guys side against Jeskai tokens? Im running the deck a couple posts above. I was thinking siding in negates, thoughtseizes and pharika's cures?
How would you guys side against Jeskai tokens? Im running the deck a couple posts above. I was thinking siding in negates, thoughtseizes and pharika's cures?
I'd bring in everything but Pearl Lake and Jace's Ingenuity.
I'd take out 2 Silence, 1 Jace's, 2 Nullify, 3 Stroke, 1 Liliana, 2 Downfall, and 1 Font.
I'm not sure if Sphinx stays in as it's not really a good blocker against them. Downfall seems bad against the tokens so I'd probably cut 1 or 2 of them. You could cut 1 Dig and not SB out 1 Font.
Hmm I see thanks... I didn't like drown in sorrow because the -2 was too easy to play around for the token player at sorc speed. Adding the 3 vaults should help because at least now I have a sweeper / way to get rid of a resolved ascendancy.
Drown is good vs 1 Ascendency out because it forces them to play 2 spells in order to pump to 3 toughness. If you Drown and they play 2 spells that do nothing but loot and maybe scry/burn you, you're still up 2 cards--you've just Mind Rotted instead of swept the table. And then that opens up the door for the next sweeper you play. Drown is also good in tandem with Bile Blight: EoT Blight their guys, they do something in response and therefore go down some amount of mana and a card in hand; you untap and Drown--this forces them to have the ability to play 3 spells in one turn in order to protect their guys, and most of the time at least 2 of these spells won't replace themselves so it's CA even if they save all their guys (somehow).
Yes, vaults are very good in that matchup. And like it was previously meantioned, if you try to kill their creatures with drown and they play 2 spells just to keep their team alive, I think that's a win in my book. I don't play an Ashiok version, as I personally think it's subpar/not my playstyle for UB. I play a PLA list. I played against jeskai tokens 3 times in the PPTQ, and I brought in all the hate. They rarely had guys out for more than two turns in a row. I thought game one was kinda rough, but definitely winnable. Postboard games I felt I couldn't lose if I kept an opener with a drown or cure+blight. I didn't drop one game post board to any of the tokens decks. My list was a page back if you're curious.
Yes, vaults are very good in that matchup. And like it was previously meantioned, if you try to kill their creatures with drown and they play 2 spells just to keep their team alive, I think that's a win in my book. I don't play an Ashiok version, as I personally think it's subpar/not my playstyle for UB. I play a PLA list. I played against jeskai tokens 3 times in the PPTQ, and I brought in all the hate. They rarely had guys out for more than two turns in a row. I thought game one was kinda rough, but definitely winnable. Postboard games I felt I couldn't lose if I kept an opener with a drown or cure+blight. I didn't drop one game post board to any of the tokens decks. My list was a page back if you're curious.
Yes, vaults are very good in that matchup. And like it was previously meantioned, if you try to kill their creatures with drown and they play 2 spells just to keep their team alive, I think that's a win in my book. I don't play an Ashiok version, as I personally think it's subpar/not my playstyle for UB. I play a PLA list. I played against jeskai tokens 3 times in the PPTQ, and I brought in all the hate. They rarely had guys out for more than two turns in a row. I thought game one was kinda rough, but definitely winnable. Postboard games I felt I couldn't lose if I kept an opener with a drown or cure+blight. I didn't drop one game post board to any of the tokens decks. My list was a page back if you're curious.
An Ashiok version certainly isn't subpar.
If you read what I actually stated, you will see that in my opinion I personally think it is subpar. I love Ashiok. He/she is one of my Top 3 favorite walkers. But I never liked it in UB that much (did enjoy it in esper though). I played the Sullivan version, I hated it. Interpret the Signs is too cute for me. I do realize the two decks play a little differently. Also, Ashiok is mainly in there for the midrange matchups. Although, it is good against the mirror, it's god awful against the jeskai tokens which is gaining popularity. I too have seen the world cup results, and I'm not convinced that since 2 of the 3 UB lists had Ashiok in them mean it's better than a PLA build. I'd rather have more relevant spells against a matchup that is more difficult game one, than play Ashiok mainly against a strategy that we're already heavily favored in both pre and post board.
I've been on Sullivan's list since day 1 and am practicing for a PTQ and might try the 2 Pearl Lake version to try it out. I'm hesistant because removal cards are dead vs the Ashiok version, but with Pearl as your only wincon a deck like Mardu can go Chain into Crackling Doom and force you to pick up 6 lands. From that point it's hard to win.
Anyone else have that problem with the PLA version?
I've been on Sullivan's list since day 1 and am practicing for a PTQ and might try the 2 Pearl Lake version to try it out. I'm hesistant because removal cards are dead vs the Ashiok version, but with Pearl as your only wincon a deck like Mardu can go Chain into Crackling Doom and force you to pick up 6 lands. From that point it's hard to win.
Anyone else have that problem with the PLA version?
I haven't had any extensive testing with it, but that's the biggest issue I see with it. If you have to pick up even 3 lands, it sets you back at least 2 turns. I know (and seen) people have success with this deck, but it's way too fragile for my liking
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
I've been on Sullivan's list since day 1 and am practicing for a PTQ and might try the 2 Pearl Lake version to try it out. I'm hesistant because removal cards are dead vs the Ashiok version, but with Pearl as your only wincon a deck like Mardu can go Chain into Crackling Doom and force you to pick up 6 lands. From that point it's hard to win.
Anyone else have that problem with the PLA version?
Let it die and wait for your second.
You're a control deck. Your mana is the most important part of your deck. Leave it intact and assume the inevitability of your second PLA.
If you deck yourself? Well, those are just some of the risks of playing 2 wincons (not that I'd play more).
Exactly. I've been on the PLA version since the beginning. And like I said I tried Sullivan's list. I wasn't a huge fan. I hate to keep bringing it up. But in my first post on this thread I wrote a tournament report. I had to play against Mardu in the finals. The guy had a lot of dead cards and nothing going on game one. But when I did despise him he had 3 dooms in his hand. I still won through that. Luckily it was an untimed round. It did take a lot of draw-go, but it effectively meant that he could never do anything without having 6-9 mana up at all times. Heck, he even had to bolt himself with pain lands to cast one of them. If I was to play in another competitive REL tournament again, I wouldn't change a card in my 75. I understand that success sometimes comes because your match ups end up being in your favor. But I didn't exactly get to play against midrange all day. I think that it would have helped me for sure in those games, but I never felt at all that I needed Ashiok at any point. On turn 3 I'd preferably want to keep my mama open if at all possible, not saying that people that play Ashiok just jam it on 3. I just would always have the urge to.
If there's one thing that control decks have, it's inevitability. As control players, I'm sure you've all won a long game one and just had to not die game two. The same thing applies here. A big difference since the last rotation is that now we can dig. So finding 1-2 cards out of our 60 is very possible. Another huge reason I gravitated towards the PLA version was because I feel it does so much more work than Ashiok. If I have an Ashiok and no other cards in hand, this walker is dead to most things. Downfall off the top, or a little guy attacks plus stoke and you with no counter. Sure it seems like that's 5 damage that our friend just soaked up, and that's true. But when you're playing off the top And that's your only way to try to stabilize, that seems poor to me. With PLA he essentially is a hexproof blocker that gains you life and lets you scry occasionally. It's disheartening to an opponent that knows he can't even attack favorably.
how do you guys SB against Abzan Whip with Sullivan's List? I had so much stuff I wanted to bring in and not enough to take out.
I want to bring in Aetherspouts, Thoughtseize, Jace's Ingenuity, Cranial Archive, Silence the Believers, 2 Prognostic Sphinx, and 2 Disdainful Stroke.
- Sphinx I'm iffy on but seems good as it blocks Doomwake and Rhino
The only thing I want to take out is 4 Bile Blight as it kills nothing. I kept in 2 Drown for Hornet Queen but that was it.
What else should I take out? Or am I bring in too much?
If you have Dig in hand, then # of cards in graveyards is relevant.
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
I cut one Ashiok on the draw, only if I really need to. It's fine because after sideboard you can typically side in more win conditions.
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
Either play also leaves you dead to burn, so that's out of the question.
Additionally, if you have enough fuel for downfall + dig through time, that's probably the ultimate play. It allows you to leave up dissolve mana on their turn and lets you dig 7 deep for bile blight, which is pretty good.
Really interesting post and productive in this sort of forum.
I think I would 2. play vault and pass. You lose to two things. Lightning Strike and Utter End. Both 1 and 2, leave you dead to Lightning Strike. Downfalling and leaving mana open doesn't leave you dead to Lightning Strike but I'm not sure if this is Mardu midrange or control, plus you need to find a way to clean up these tokens and "scry 1" off of Dissolve may or may not get it done. However, under 1 and 3, you have to find an answer to the tokens -- Bile Blight or the like. I like the odds on putting him on another Utter End rather than require us to find a Bile Blight with either Divination or Dig Through Time. I'd only put him on 1 Utter Ends if this is game one. If this is game two I probably would only put him on 2 Utter Ends at most. The card is super inefficient and only really good when they managae to pull ahead and expect you to have Perilous Vault.
1. is by far the worst option.
I think Downfall and Dissolve is a fair line, although one I wouldn't take.
I ended up playing Downfall and Divination. He attacked me to 3 and played Hordeling Outburst. I ended up Digging main-phase and found one of my 2 MB Drown in Sorrow. I stabalized from their with the 2 Dissolve and Vault in my hand, drawing a Radiant Fountain for insurance.
After reviewing I believe playing the Vault was probably safer as I assumed he didn't have any burn in hand or he would of played it earlier. I think knowing I still had 2 Drown and 4 Blight in my deck that playing to that out was fine, but Vault was probably correct.
Ah, well, would've been nice to know. Divination probably was fine then and not the worst play, since you knew your outs were Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow (6 total?). Whereas Divination for just Bile Blight seems loose.
yeah 2 MB Drown is standard in Sullivan's list. I figured I had enough outs that taking the slightly riskier play gave me a better chance in the long run than just playing Vault.
4 Dismal Backwater
6 Island
4 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Radiant Fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
//Insants
4 Bile Blight
4 Dig Through Time
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Ætherspouts
2 nullify
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Font of Fortunes
1 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Silence the Believers
2 Prognostic Sphinx
//Planeswalkers
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana Vess
3 Negate
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Ætherspouts
3 Thoughtseize
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 pearl lake ancient
Beat PLA U/B control and Mardu Control. Got a bye as well for being late (lucky me). I got absolutely CRUSHED by a pro brew Jeskai ascendancy / token / burn deck. I got slaughtered, I had no idea what I was doing. It was like I was having sex for the first time. I need more practice against that matchup but otherwise I feel like I am pretty confidant against most other decks.
After the last game I was finally inspired to put in vaults in my deck.
-2 nullify ( did nothing the whole time, ended up dead because no UU a few times)
SB 1 Silence (love this card but I can now afford to have 1 MB because of vaults)
+3 vault
I feel like im not really taking anything away by adding the vaults, but now I can dial 1800 VAULT INSURANCE
Dark Betrayal seems a bit narrow still. You hit Doomwake and Sidisi, but miss on everything else they play. It's not a good solution to the zombie token engine created by sidisi and doesn't touch hornet queen at all. I would rather play stuff like disdainful stroke.
I also don't see gainsay being much better than just running negate. What blue creatures are you trying to hit?
Ashiok never leaves. If they have little to no creatures, you basically try to mill them out, if not get close. Against those decks, you board in Prognasty and/or PLA when appropriate.
You generally don't take Divination out ever. If you need to remove draw, you take out Interpet the Signs and Jace's Ingenuity.
And yes, Liliana comes out against Jeskai Aggro, Mardu (or any R/W/x tokens/aggro decks), and Mono Red.
Here's some examples of my SBing with some of those cards:
Against Mardu
+1 Pharika's Cure
+1 Drown In Sorrow
+1 Silence the Believers
-1 Interpret the Signs
-1 Liliana Vess
-1 Jace's Ingenuity
Against Red
+1 Pharika's Cure
+1 Drown In Sorrow
+1 Silence the Believers
+2 Prognostic Sphinx
-2 Perilous Vault
-1 Interpret the Signs
-1 Liliana Vess
-1 Jace's Ingenuity
I'd bring in everything but Pearl Lake and Jace's Ingenuity.
I'd take out 2 Silence, 1 Jace's, 2 Nullify, 3 Stroke, 1 Liliana, 2 Downfall, and 1 Font.
I'm not sure if Sphinx stays in as it's not really a good blocker against them. Downfall seems bad against the tokens so I'd probably cut 1 or 2 of them. You could cut 1 Dig and not SB out 1 Font.
An Ashiok version certainly isn't subpar.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8689&d=249653&f=ST
If you read what I actually stated, you will see that in my opinion I personally think it is subpar. I love Ashiok. He/she is one of my Top 3 favorite walkers. But I never liked it in UB that much (did enjoy it in esper though). I played the Sullivan version, I hated it. Interpret the Signs is too cute for me. I do realize the two decks play a little differently. Also, Ashiok is mainly in there for the midrange matchups. Although, it is good against the mirror, it's god awful against the jeskai tokens which is gaining popularity. I too have seen the world cup results, and I'm not convinced that since 2 of the 3 UB lists had Ashiok in them mean it's better than a PLA build. I'd rather have more relevant spells against a matchup that is more difficult game one, than play Ashiok mainly against a strategy that we're already heavily favored in both pre and post board.
Anyone else have that problem with the PLA version?
I haven't had any extensive testing with it, but that's the biggest issue I see with it. If you have to pick up even 3 lands, it sets you back at least 2 turns. I know (and seen) people have success with this deck, but it's way too fragile for my liking
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Let it die and wait for your second.
You're a control deck. Your mana is the most important part of your deck. Leave it intact and assume the inevitability of your second PLA.
If you deck yourself? Well, those are just some of the risks of playing 2 wincons (not that I'd play more).
If there's one thing that control decks have, it's inevitability. As control players, I'm sure you've all won a long game one and just had to not die game two. The same thing applies here. A big difference since the last rotation is that now we can dig. So finding 1-2 cards out of our 60 is very possible. Another huge reason I gravitated towards the PLA version was because I feel it does so much more work than Ashiok. If I have an Ashiok and no other cards in hand, this walker is dead to most things. Downfall off the top, or a little guy attacks plus stoke and you with no counter. Sure it seems like that's 5 damage that our friend just soaked up, and that's true. But when you're playing off the top And that's your only way to try to stabilize, that seems poor to me. With PLA he essentially is a hexproof blocker that gains you life and lets you scry occasionally. It's disheartening to an opponent that knows he can't even attack favorably.
I want to bring in Aetherspouts, Thoughtseize, Jace's Ingenuity, Cranial Archive, Silence the Believers, 2 Prognostic Sphinx, and 2 Disdainful Stroke.
- Sphinx I'm iffy on but seems good as it blocks Doomwake and Rhino
The only thing I want to take out is 4 Bile Blight as it kills nothing. I kept in 2 Drown for Hornet Queen but that was it.
What else should I take out? Or am I bring in too much?
That deck is death for us U/B players.
sideboard options anyone? besides drown and bile and lurkers?