I'd sooner up my drown in sorrow count than add another urborg. Its unnecessary even if we ignore the haven argument. Your wins against red has more to do with the life gain from foul tounge and actually drawing drown on sorrow rather than having double black on turn 2.
This. Also: double Urborg makes your deck much worse in the mirror.
I ran double urborg for a few weeks in online testing. FREQUENTLY I drew the second Urborg. I like always having one in play, but the dead card in hand sucks. I dropped back down to one.
I'm not seeing much talk in regards to Flores's "Mono Blue" Dragon list, which is surprising since the deck clearly has the control MU beat, and a large part of that is due to Crucible of the Spirit Dragon, which is just absurd in the mirror.
The deck is powerful, but more than that what I took away the most from his list was first and foremost that Crucible is criminally underrated given the current metagame and that Ojutai might not be the only dragon worth splashing for.
I think the real takeaway is the splash potential for Dromoka, and a picture of how terrible aggro is in Standard that you can win with a deck like this. I don't see why he needed Atarka, but I'm not sure how his mana would have worked with 4 color, anyway. If you can cast Downfall in a deck with Ojutai, Dromoka, and Silumgar than I think it's just better than what he's working with. I can't imagine 4x Crucible + 4x Haven being "free" and I'd want to trim those numbers, probably in half. I mean, he legit had 15 lands that weren't colorless, and all the UU spells in Standard. You actually would need UUU to cast 2 spells in a turn with that deck.
The deck seems like it can't lose to Abzan and the mirror (game 1); I think I'll buy the Dromoka's if they don't skyrocket before this weekend. Cards I think there has to be better options to are:
Disdainful Stroke
Encase in Ice
Voyage's End
Dragonlord's Perogative
The entire sideboard
These could just be more copies of Anticipate, Nullify, Vault, etc. I also wish there was a good way to give these things haste at the 4-spot. Why would you run Opportunity in a deck with bombs? If the top of your deck is mono-bombs, why not move the draw spells to the bottom half of your curve and smooth out your mana development? Dig Through Time is just better than an Opportunity anyway, since the damn Opportunity already costs 6 and Dig at least gives you a fighting chance to cast it + the spell you draw off it.
I also must be the only person who thinks Icefall Regent is terrible. Only Dragon that dies to absolutely anything in the mirror, almost making it worse than the Ultimate Price in their hand (maybe that's a bit too strong), and just taps Siege Rhino vs. Abzan midrange? It doesn't deal with Courser, doesn't deal with Tasigur (the biggest bomb), and in general seems like an Aggro creature more than anything. I think just cutting those and running 8 dragons will be stronger.
I ran double urborg for a few weeks in online testing. FREQUENTLY I drew the second Urborg. I like always having one in play, but the dead card in hand sucks. I dropped back down to one.
I did the same with double Karakas in Legacy Miracles. It's not the kind of thing that can last for long.
I'm not seeing much talk in regards to Flores's "Mono Blue" Dragon list, which is surprising since the deck clearly has the control MU beat, and a large part of that is due to Crucible of the Spirit Dragon, which is just absurd in the mirror.
The deck is powerful, but more than that what I took away the most from his list was first and foremost that Crucible is criminally underrated given the current metagame and that Ojutai might not be the only dragon worth splashing for.
I think the real takeaway is the splash potential for Dromoka, and a picture of how terrible aggro is in Standard that you can win with a deck like this. I don't see why he needed Atarka, but I'm not sure how his mana would have worked with 4 color, anyway. If you can cast Downfall in a deck with Ojutai, Dromoka, and Silumgar than I think it's just better than what he's working with. I can't imagine 4x Crucible + 4x Haven being "free" and I'd want to trim those numbers, probably in half. I mean, he legit had 15 lands that weren't colorless, and all the UU spells in Standard. You actually would need UUU to cast 2 spells in a turn with that deck.
The deck seems like it can't lose to Abzan and the mirror (game 1); I think I'll buy the Dromoka's if they don't skyrocket before this weekend. Cards I think there has to be better options to are:
Disdainful Stroke
Encase in Ice
Voyage's End
Dragonlord's Perogative
The entire sideboard
These could just be more copies of Anticipate, Nullify, Vault, etc. I also wish there was a good way to give these things haste at the 4-spot. Why would you run Opportunity in a deck with bombs? If the top of your deck is mono-bombs, why not move the draw spells to the bottom half of your curve and smooth out your mana development? Dig Through Time is just better than an Opportunity anyway, since the damn Opportunity already costs 6 and Dig at least gives you a fighting chance to cast it + the spell you draw off it.
I also must be the only person who thinks Icefall Regent is terrible. Only Dragon that dies to absolutely anything in the mirror, almost making it worse than the Ultimate Price in their hand (maybe that's a bit too strong), and just taps Siege Rhino vs. Abzan midrange? It doesn't deal with Courser, doesn't deal with Tasigur (the biggest bomb), and in general seems like an Aggro creature more than anything. I think just cutting those and running 8 dragons will be stronger.
I ran double urborg for a few weeks in online testing. FREQUENTLY I drew the second Urborg. I like always having one in play, but the dead card in hand sucks. I dropped back down to one.
I did the same with double Karakas in Legacy Miracles. It's not the kind of thing that can last for long.
Even a second Karakas does something and is not 100% a dead card. (you could theoretically return 2 creatures in one turn).
The issues with a second Urborg... the second copy never has ANY net-benefit (even a short term benefit).
I hear you Cipher. I really like the deck in an Esper-saturated field, of course. And the SB for a mono red field is also good (as flores described in his tournament report). But moving forward I don't know if this deck will survive without major changes. And I am not willing to buy 4 master of waves at $5-6 apiece when they are rotating in a couple months. However, as you well mention, Splashing Dromoka seems good. The "can't be countered, now you cant counter all these tap-out shenanigans i'll do in my turn" deal seems great (specially if you cast Dromoka off of 2-3 lands only). BUuuuuuuuut..... if you are a control deck, and you reached the point of the game where you have 11+ lands in play (this si what you need for Ugin + 3 land dromoka, for example) you really should be ahead anyway. This is why, rather than going ot this tap-out control deck, I'm still hovering around the more draw-go ish deck of the format. It is a cool deck, but I don't think its "broken".
Dromoka does seem to have a ton of potential. The handful of times it's been dropped on me, it's been a real nuisance. I don't think I'll ever be running Flores's list (Esper Dragons has too many wincons for me, already), but I did buy two Dromoka this morning just in case.
I'm thinking about moving back into UB Pure Control. Ashiok seems very well situated right now, and I really miss my Perilous Vaults against these damn Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor decks.
Dromoka does seem to have a ton of potential. The handful of times it's been dropped on me, it's been a real nuisance. I don't think I'll ever be running Flores's list (Esper Dragons has too many wincons for me, already), but I did buy two Dromoka this morning just in case.
I'm thinking about moving back into UB Pure Control. Ashiok seems very well situated right now, and I really miss my Perilous Vaults against these damn Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor.
I can understand that. I thought about moving back into straight UB as well.
But at the end of the day I've found Ojutai to be too good not to play.
Esper dragons is simply better (in my opinion) vs aggro. At least that has been my experience. Of course, I also tailor my deck to beat aggro post board (I still run Murk Lurkers)
Dromoka does seem to have a ton of potential. The handful of times it's been dropped on me, it's been a real nuisance. I don't think I'll ever be running Flores's list (Esper Dragons has too many wincons for me, already), but I did buy two Dromoka this morning just in case.
I'm thinking about moving back into UB Pure Control. Ashiok seems very well situated right now, and I really miss my Perilous Vaults against these damn Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor.
I can understand that. I thought about moving back into straight UB as well.
But at the end of the day I've found Ojutai to be too good not to play.
Esper dragons is simply better (in my opinion) vs aggro. At least that has been my experience. Of course, I also tailor my deck to beat aggro post board (I still run Murk Lurkers)
Ojutai, Silumgar's Scorn, and Foul-Tongue Invocation are the only reasons why I haven't gone back yet. You're richly rewarded for playing dragons, and it's much easier to close out games.
I'm conflicted. I feel like I pilot the pure control deck better overall, but the Esper list has more raw power.
I'm thinking about moving back into UB Pure Control. Ashiok seems very well situated right now, and I really miss my Perilous Vaults against these damn Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor decks.
Moving back now seems to be a very good choice, mainly because I do feel that Dragons will sort of drop a bit in populairity after it has been defeated aswell a couple of times.
Does not mean the deck will become worse but I do believe you can profit from the hype by playing straight up UB Control now. In the same way Flores was succesfull with his build. Ashiok for sure is very well situated and so are dragonless/heavy counter builds as a result.
I can understand that. I thought about moving back into straight UB as well.
But at the end of the day I've found Ojutai to be too good not to play.
Esper dragons is simply better (in my opinion) vs aggro. At least that has been my experience. Of course, I also tailor my deck to beat aggro post board (I still run Murk Lurkers)
Here we do agree. For sure Esper dragons is better versus aggro but more than anything I favour Esper Dragons over UB because it has the tools to win on the clock aswell. Something that is quite hard to do in the more FNM-type games with UB Control, granted if you do make the top cut UB Control seems to have the advantage again.
Ive found Murk Lurkers an interesting choice, have ran them but don't feel I need them so much, altough would love to hear your reasoning behind it.
Additionally, has anyone allready tested Risen Executioner? This black "Vengevine" has really caught my attention and I do expect that it is very able to create a huge problem for Esper Dragons, UB Dragons or UB Control.
- Ugin and Perilous Vault are around to anwser this but apart from those cards I do think this can be a key creature card for any Control match up including the mirror.
Murk Lurker is a card aggro (Especailly RDW) can not beat. The turn you play it they either have to A) Kill it. or B) kill you. When you pair it with our massive Dragons (aka Ojutai) you're gaining a minimum of 5 life per turn. I actually cut Tasigur's to keep lurkers in the main. I feel like the life gain is that important.
I love Tasigur too much to cut him from my deck. He's still an all-star in pretty much every matchup, especially as a brick wall against aggro decks. As far as Risen Executioner goes, I think it's a decent card and much more powerful than the text would imply. However, I'm not a fan of it in a control deck for one reason: It can't block. Having a creature that can't block is a huge liability for a control deck. I do think it's a valid way to attack control decks though, and I wouldn't be surprised to see other decks to pop up that include it.
I love Tasigur too much to cut him from my deck. He's still an all-star in pretty much every matchup, especially as a brick wall against aggro decks. As far as Risen Executioner goes, I think it's a decent card and much more powerful than the text would imply. However, I'm not a fan of it in a control deck for one reason: It can't block. Having a creature that can't block is a huge liability for a control deck. I do think it's a valid way to attack control decks though, and I wouldn't be surprised to see other decks to pop up that include it.
I have to admit, Tasigur is something that will be missed here aswell as the body covers so much and the Delve makes sure you can often cast him for 3 resources (which hugely swings the whole match up even in a 'race').
I do agree with you that the can't block rule is very relevant against all types of aggro and mirdange. The main reason Im still having it in there now is specifically against Control but perhaps between the 4 Duress, 2 Prerogative I allready have my mirror coverd? Will report on it for sure!
I don't think it would hurt to throw a negate in there over a duress. I would certainly bring in the banana man against control too.
My deck is by no means a super tuned version or the best, but I love it and I've had good success. I really like my mana, and I feel like my list is consistent enough. In addition, cards like Utter End add lots of power to it.
I've loved Divination, I know it doesn't seem very strong. But control decks are reluctant to counter it, the additional card advantage helps against a variety of decks, and having more sources of card draw really helps against decks with discard.
I've also had good results with Elspeth, Sun's Champion from the sideboard. She can be a little tough on the mana, but I don't just slam her on turn 6. I like to play her on turn 8-9 with a counter spell for backup. She really helps as an additional finisher, a card out of left field, and she's very strong at stabilizing. I've played the card since she came out in Theros, and she's be a powerful favorite of mine since. There's a reason for that.
The only thing I'd really like to change about the deck is fitting in a fourth Ojutai. After playing the variety of games I have, I think getting a 4th one would be pretty helpful. Even with 2 Haven's, Ojutai dies very often. Being able to just keep jamming them until one sticks feels like it'd be useful in the mirror and against UB and Abzan control.
Additionally, has anyone allready tested Risen Executioner? This black "Vengevine" has really caught my attention and I do expect that it is very able to create a huge problem for Esper Dragons, UB Dragons or UB Control.
- Ugin and Perilous Vault are around to anwser this but apart from those cards I do think this can be a key creature card for any Control match up including the mirror.
He's pretty good. In fact, hes really good against any deck running removal or X/4 creatures. I have two in my side and they come in more often than not. Even if he does eat removal, that's one less spell for Dragonlord Ojutai and I can likely bringing Executioner back for 4-5 mana anyway.
I have had the same idea, specially since the Flores build of 5c blue dragons seems to have lots of innevitability with the 4 Havens. My thoughts of a deck with LFTP:
1) if you don't want "decking" to be your win con, you have to start being cautious with what you delve away.
2) Related to (1), your graveyard will be empty more often that without LFTP. Maybe, instead of 4 dig 1 prerogative, the optimal LFTP build has 2 prerogative, 3 dig?
3) The problem for me though is this: you need 2 LFTP if you want to truly establish an innevitable loop, since LFTP does not work like elixir of immortality. The problem though is that LFTP does not protect you. Its not a blocker like eternal witness, it does not gain life like the elixir, and it merely replaces itself (i.e. does not generate card advantage). So, from the perspective of contributing to your defensive plan, it does nothing. It is purely a win-con, and that makes me skeptical. I did make a UW list with it, and as soon as modo is back up i'll try it, but I'm not too optimistic about it.
I feel like I never wanted utter end in my main. 4 mana is really slow for a card that 1 for 1s. It does help deal with enchantments which have essentially been the bane of my deck thus far.(running a mostly standard dragons list) I am probably going to move up to 3x bile blight in my main because 2 cost answers are needed heavily with all of the EBT lands.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I feel like I never wanted utter end in my main. 4 mana is really slow for a card that 1 for 1s. It does help deal with enchantments which have essentially been the bane of my deck thus far.(running a mostly standard dragons list) I am probably going to move up to 3x bile blight in my main because 2 cost answers are needed heavily with all of the EBT lands.
Utter End is definitely pretty slow, but the format right now is pretty slow in general. If my meta was full of RDW I would probably not want them in though. Although if my meta was full of RDW I would probably be playing a different deck, or change shops...
I just went 4-1 in 2 different 8mans with the list below. My loss came to an abzan aggro deck piloted by p_cox whom i believe is pat cox... he times his thoughtseizes masterfully, nothing i could do really. The other wins came to RB dragons, a bant megamorph deck (similar to the one chapin wrote about in SCG, when discussing PT DTK testing) a mono red aggro deck and another deck that i'm not remembering now, but it wasn't control.
Anyhow, while the list below is UW (based off of cuneo's UW) the reason I am posting it is because I think the general idea and what i have learned about learn from the past can be useful for adopting learn from the past into UB. Also, because this is a reply to a poster that posted in this forum, not the UW one
(1) I first tested the list with 4 dig and 1 prerogative, and then 3 dig and 2 prerogative. I was concerned that LFP would empty the GY too soon and it would hamper the effect of dig. This is not the case. With enough library manipulation (anticipate, scry and, to an extent, dig placing things on the bottom) you typically draw learn later in the game or if you actively look for it.
(2) About Dig, it is also true that if you are careful in what you delve away, your dig actually makes your deck stronger. I typically try delving away fetches and anticipates first, then removal spells (the longer the match goes the less relevant threats they got) and finally card draw and counters. the times i got the learn loop going, i was drawing mostly all counters, and the opponents where totally locked out from resolving anything.
(3) You absolutely need lifegain. I played Resolute archangel precicely for that reason. Learn wants the game ot go long and your deck to be filled with answers. This means looooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggg games. It is not uncommon to be at 4 or 5 life, and any random burn/dash/haste dude that slips through your permission might kill you. In black, the invocations might do the trick. And if you dont run dragons maybe pharika's cure of murk lurker, or whatever the cool kids are running now for life gain.
(4) The real finisher is learn from the past. I don't bother protecting my other "win cons" like elspeth or the angel because, even if they eat a kill spell, they'll eventually be shuffled back in. Save your counters for their threats, not to protect your threats (like dragons or whatever the B version wants to run)
Actually from my play test mono-red isn't all that bad. Game 1 is about 30%, but the other games are at worst 60%. I have played probably 30 matches against it and won 20 of them. Generally the only thing I lose to is ***** like ensoul artifact on a citadel turn 2 two games in a row. I am probably going to slide two utter ends into my board and call it good.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Currently I feel exiling isn't that much better as removing even against the Dragon build. If you include 5-6 Dragons you should be able to have/find more when they come online (turn 5/6+) and can potentially get exiled (turn 6+/7+).
Additionally the Flores' build runs a whopping 10 Dragons. I feel Haven is much more there for the colour fix than actually returning the Dragons.
have to disagree with this. Yes its mana fixing. But the ability of the land is super relative.
This. Also: double Urborg makes your deck much worse in the mirror.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I think the real takeaway is the splash potential for Dromoka, and a picture of how terrible aggro is in Standard that you can win with a deck like this. I don't see why he needed Atarka, but I'm not sure how his mana would have worked with 4 color, anyway. If you can cast Downfall in a deck with Ojutai, Dromoka, and Silumgar than I think it's just better than what he's working with. I can't imagine 4x Crucible + 4x Haven being "free" and I'd want to trim those numbers, probably in half. I mean, he legit had 15 lands that weren't colorless, and all the UU spells in Standard. You actually would need UUU to cast 2 spells in a turn with that deck.
The deck seems like it can't lose to Abzan and the mirror (game 1); I think I'll buy the Dromoka's if they don't skyrocket before this weekend. Cards I think there has to be better options to are:
Disdainful Stroke
Encase in Ice
Voyage's End
Dragonlord's Perogative
The entire sideboard
These could just be more copies of Anticipate, Nullify, Vault, etc. I also wish there was a good way to give these things haste at the 4-spot. Why would you run Opportunity in a deck with bombs? If the top of your deck is mono-bombs, why not move the draw spells to the bottom half of your curve and smooth out your mana development? Dig Through Time is just better than an Opportunity anyway, since the damn Opportunity already costs 6 and Dig at least gives you a fighting chance to cast it + the spell you draw off it.
I also must be the only person who thinks Icefall Regent is terrible. Only Dragon that dies to absolutely anything in the mirror, almost making it worse than the Ultimate Price in their hand (maybe that's a bit too strong), and just taps Siege Rhino vs. Abzan midrange? It doesn't deal with Courser, doesn't deal with Tasigur (the biggest bomb), and in general seems like an Aggro creature more than anything. I think just cutting those and running 8 dragons will be stronger.
I did the same with double Karakas in Legacy Miracles. It's not the kind of thing that can last for long.
Even a second Karakas does something and is not 100% a dead card. (you could theoretically return 2 creatures in one turn).
The issues with a second Urborg... the second copy never has ANY net-benefit (even a short term benefit).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'm thinking about moving back into UB Pure Control. Ashiok seems very well situated right now, and I really miss my Perilous Vaults against these damn Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor decks.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
I can understand that. I thought about moving back into straight UB as well.
But at the end of the day I've found Ojutai to be too good not to play.
Esper dragons is simply better (in my opinion) vs aggro. At least that has been my experience. Of course, I also tailor my deck to beat aggro post board (I still run Murk Lurkers)
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/281537#online
Ojutai, Silumgar's Scorn, and Foul-Tongue Invocation are the only reasons why I haven't gone back yet. You're richly rewarded for playing dragons, and it's much easier to close out games.
I'm conflicted. I feel like I pilot the pure control deck better overall, but the Esper list has more raw power.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Murk Lurker is a card aggro (Especailly RDW) can not beat. The turn you play it they either have to A) Kill it. or B) kill you. When you pair it with our massive Dragons (aka Ojutai) you're gaining a minimum of 5 life per turn. I actually cut Tasigur's to keep lurkers in the main. I feel like the life gain is that important.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
2x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3x Anticipate
2x Bile Blight
4x Dig Through Time
2x Dissolve
2x Foul-Tongue Invocation
3x Hero's Downfall
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Ultimate Price
2x Crux of Fate
2x thoughtseize
2x Caves of Koilos
4x Dismal Backwater
1x Flooded Strand
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Murk Lurker
1x Negate
2x Stratus Dancer
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Bile Blight
1x Foul-tongue Invocation
2x Dragonlord's Prerogative
2x Dragonlord Silumgar
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
2x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2x Narset Transcendent
2x Anticipate
4x Dig Through Time
4x Dissolve
3x Foul-Tongue Invocation
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Ultimate Price
2x Crux of Fate
2x Utter End
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Temple of Silence
1x Flooded Strand
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Foul-Tongue Invocation
1x Crux of Fate
2x Stratus Dancer
3x Drown in Sorrow
2x Bile Blight
1x Dragonlord's Prerogative
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
1x Virulent Plague
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
I don't think it would hurt to throw a negate in there over a duress. I would certainly bring in the banana man against control too.
2x Anticipate
1x Bile Blight
3x Dig Through Time
4x Dissolve
3x Foul-Tongue Invocation
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Ultimate Price
2x Utter End
Sorceries
2x Crux of Fate
2x Divination
3x Dragonlord Ojutai
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Lands
4x Dismal Backwater
2x Flooded Strand
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
3x Temple of Deceit
3x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Silence
3x Arashin Cleric
2x Bile Blight
2x Dragonlord's Prerogative
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Negate
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2x Stratus Dancer
1x Ultimate Price
My deck is by no means a super tuned version or the best, but I love it and I've had good success. I really like my mana, and I feel like my list is consistent enough. In addition, cards like Utter End add lots of power to it.
I've loved Divination, I know it doesn't seem very strong. But control decks are reluctant to counter it, the additional card advantage helps against a variety of decks, and having more sources of card draw really helps against decks with discard.
I've also had good results with Elspeth, Sun's Champion from the sideboard. She can be a little tough on the mana, but I don't just slam her on turn 6. I like to play her on turn 8-9 with a counter spell for backup. She really helps as an additional finisher, a card out of left field, and she's very strong at stabilizing. I've played the card since she came out in Theros, and she's be a powerful favorite of mine since. There's a reason for that.
The only thing I'd really like to change about the deck is fitting in a fourth Ojutai. After playing the variety of games I have, I think getting a 4th one would be pretty helpful. Even with 2 Haven's, Ojutai dies very often. Being able to just keep jamming them until one sticks feels like it'd be useful in the mirror and against UB and Abzan control.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
He's pretty good. In fact, hes really good against any deck running removal or X/4 creatures. I have two in my side and they come in more often than not. Even if he does eat removal, that's one less spell for Dragonlord Ojutai and I can likely bringing Executioner back for 4-5 mana anyway.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
[EDH Non-Primers] Newzuri | Breya
1) if you don't want "decking" to be your win con, you have to start being cautious with what you delve away.
2) Related to (1), your graveyard will be empty more often that without LFTP. Maybe, instead of 4 dig 1 prerogative, the optimal LFTP build has 2 prerogative, 3 dig?
3) The problem for me though is this: you need 2 LFTP if you want to truly establish an innevitable loop, since LFTP does not work like elixir of immortality. The problem though is that LFTP does not protect you. Its not a blocker like eternal witness, it does not gain life like the elixir, and it merely replaces itself (i.e. does not generate card advantage). So, from the perspective of contributing to your defensive plan, it does nothing. It is purely a win-con, and that makes me skeptical. I did make a UW list with it, and as soon as modo is back up i'll try it, but I'm not too optimistic about it.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Utter End is definitely pretty slow, but the format right now is pretty slow in general. If my meta was full of RDW I would probably not want them in though. Although if my meta was full of RDW I would probably be playing a different deck, or change shops...
I just went 4-1 in 2 different 8mans with the list below. My loss came to an abzan aggro deck piloted by p_cox whom i believe is pat cox... he times his thoughtseizes masterfully, nothing i could do really. The other wins came to RB dragons, a bant megamorph deck (similar to the one chapin wrote about in SCG, when discussing PT DTK testing) a mono red aggro deck and another deck that i'm not remembering now, but it wasn't control.
Anyhow, while the list below is UW (based off of cuneo's UW) the reason I am posting it is because I think the general idea and what i have learned about learn from the past can be useful for adopting learn from the past into UB. Also, because this is a reply to a poster that posted in this forum, not the UW one
(1) I first tested the list with 4 dig and 1 prerogative, and then 3 dig and 2 prerogative. I was concerned that LFP would empty the GY too soon and it would hamper the effect of dig. This is not the case. With enough library manipulation (anticipate, scry and, to an extent, dig placing things on the bottom) you typically draw learn later in the game or if you actively look for it.
(2) About Dig, it is also true that if you are careful in what you delve away, your dig actually makes your deck stronger. I typically try delving away fetches and anticipates first, then removal spells (the longer the match goes the less relevant threats they got) and finally card draw and counters. the times i got the learn loop going, i was drawing mostly all counters, and the opponents where totally locked out from resolving anything.
(3) You absolutely need lifegain. I played Resolute archangel precicely for that reason. Learn wants the game ot go long and your deck to be filled with answers. This means looooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggg games. It is not uncommon to be at 4 or 5 life, and any random burn/dash/haste dude that slips through your permission might kill you. In black, the invocations might do the trick. And if you dont run dragons maybe pharika's cure of murk lurker, or whatever the cool kids are running now for life gain.
(4) The real finisher is learn from the past. I don't bother protecting my other "win cons" like elspeth or the angel because, even if they eat a kill spell, they'll eventually be shuffled back in. Save your counters for their threats, not to protect your threats (like dragons or whatever the B version wants to run)
4 flooded strand
10 island
1 mystic monastery
3 plains
1 radiant fountain
4 temple of enlightenment
4 tranquil cove
Creatures
1 Resolute Archangel
Artifact
3 perilous vault
sorcery
1 End Hostilities
3 Elspeth, sun's champion
Instants
1 last breath
1 valorous stance
4 anticipate
4 nullify
2 negate
2 disdainful stroke
4 dissolve
2 learn from the past
2 dragonlord's prerogative
3 dig through time
1 glare of heresy
1 nyx-fleece ram
1 radiant purge
2 raise the alarm
2 surge of righteousness
2 valorous stance
1 end hostilities
1 disdainful stroke
2 negate
1 treasure cruise
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
have to disagree with this. Yes its mana fixing. But the ability of the land is super relative.
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA