I dont really like ashiok in that matchup: when it works, its awesome (stealing a whisperwood is fantastic, no denying that!) but then the question is: how often does it hit? Assume that you drop Ashiok turn 3 and assume that he has all his masteries and whisperwoods in the deck (which is best case for ashiok). Then, the probability of hitting at least 1 of those 8 cards in a deck containing 50 cards (assume the opponent drew 10 already, which is best case for ashiok) is 41.4%. That means that roughly 58% of the time you are actually accelerating him towards the problem cards, and only 42% of the time you are actually dealing with a problem card. Even if his deck has 40 cards remaining (that is,turn 13 roughly) and the opponent has still drawn 0 masteries and whisperwoods, the chnces of ashiok hitting a mastery or whisperwood are 50%. That, in my opinion, is not such a great thing. I think that the times he hits are so awesome that people subconsciously forget that the rest of the time he is actually helping the opponent dig towards their problem card.
I dont really like ashiok in that matchup: when it works, its awesome (stealing a whisperwood is fantastic, no denying that!) but then the question is: how often does it hit? Assume that you drop Ashiok turn 3 and assume that he has all his masteries and whisperwoods in the deck (which is best case for ashiok). Then, the probability of hitting at least 1 of those 8 cards in a deck containing 50 cards (assume the opponent drew 10 already, which is best case for ashiok) is 41.4%. That means that roughly 58% of the time you are actually accelerating him towards the problem cards, and only 42% of the time you are actually dealing with a problem card. Even if his deck has 40 cards remaining (that is,turn 13 roughly) and the opponent has still drawn 0 masteries and whisperwoods, the chnces of ashiok hitting a mastery or whisperwood are 50%. That, in my opinion, is not such a great thing. I think that the times he hits are so awesome that people subconsciously forget that the rest of the time he is actually helping the opponent dig towards their problem card.
You don't have to hit whisperwood. There are plenty of other relative good creatures (Courser, worldeater, etc.) to hit.
Courser is actually amazing to hit. Slows down their draw power and allows your to filter through your deck faster to find answers.
EDIT: if you are able to cast a whisperwood off of Ashiok, it is VERY difficult for the GW player to win.
A card that has a 30% chance to win you the game outright... is ok in my books
The value of aetherspouts, in my opinion, is when they don't expect it. So its never a 4 of (at most, a 2 of) and it's always better when no one else is playing it. Once the cat is out of the bag, it stops being good (until it falls off the radar and the cycle begins anew). I used to have 0 in my decks as soon as it came out, then i put 2, then i took it off and now i put it back in. Probably will take it off in a couple of weeks if it catches on.
Here's what Sam Black said about Aetherspouts in his article on GW Devotion earlier this week:
If you're going to try to play U/B Control, you should probably at least have the right sweepers. There have been a lot of times playing against U/B Control online where I've known this is the only thing that would beat me, but I've ignored it because they never have it. If you actually had it, things would go quite a bit better for you. This answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance. If U/B Control started playing a few of these in addition to Perilous Vault, then I'd actually start to get worried about the matchup.
This, and the fact that Adrian Sullivan returned to them, convinced me to replace one of my Cruxes for one in the main deck.
Here's what Sam Black said about Aetherspouts in his article on GW Devotion earlier this week:
If you're going to try to play U/B Control, you should probably at least have the right sweepers. There have been a lot of times playing against U/B Control online where I've known this is the only thing that would beat me, but I've ignored it because they never have it. If you actually had it, things would go quite a bit better for you. This answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance. If U/B Control started playing a few of these in addition to Perilous Vault, then I'd actually start to get worried about the matchup.
This, and the fact that Adrian Sullivan returned to them, convinced me to replace one of my Cruxes for one in the main deck.
Wouldn't it be better just to play more vaults?
It does all the same things that Sam Black said
answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance.
except it exiles which is pretty good.
With x3 Crux of Fate, x2 Vaults and x2 Ugins main I never seem to have trouble vs GW. I win the vast majority of the time (so far 2/3 match wins online VS manifest)
Aethersprouts is worse than crux IMO. Especially against GW Manifest.
Red Deck Wins is beginning to rear its head in competitive magic. It is up to 7% on MTG top 8. I am becoming concerned about it and may move to maindeck drown's and am patiently waiting for some hate in dragons.
Here's what Sam Black said about Aetherspouts in his article on GW Devotion earlier this week:
If you're going to try to play U/B Control, you should probably at least have the right sweepers. There have been a lot of times playing against U/B Control online where I've known this is the only thing that would beat me, but I've ignored it because they never have it. If you actually had it, things would go quite a bit better for you. This answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance. If U/B Control started playing a few of these in addition to Perilous Vault, then I'd actually start to get worried about the matchup.
This, and the fact that Adrian Sullivan returned to them, convinced me to replace one of my Cruxes for one in the main deck.
Wouldn't it be better just to play more vaults?
It does all the same things that Sam Black said
answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance.
except it exiles which is pretty good.
With x3 Crux of Fate, x2 Vaults and x2 Ugins main I never seem to have trouble vs GW. I win the vast majority of the time (so far 2/3 match wins online VS manifest)
Aethersprouts is worse than crux IMO. Especially against GW Manifest.
I haven't played the GW Devotion matchup yet with UB, so I'll take your word for it. Crux doesn't seem well suited for the matchup given the Whisperwood interaction, but maybe that just isn't as relevant as it looks?
In my mainboard, I'm on 3 Perilous Vault, 1 Crux, 1 Aetherspouts, 2 Drown in Sorrow right now.
Looks like you did well with your build. Glad it stood up to the vast majority of big hitters in the format. Well done man, and that's quite a gauntlet to run. Was this on line or local store? I always find the mirror match to be a very tight dance of counters, is very technical but a resolved Slumgar is really tough to deal with. I run a different list than yours but if it puts up results and works there's no need to adjust it until it needs fixing. Silence the Believers was a card I was running before but I wound up taking it out of 75, I added in an Ugin for it, but maybe it's more useful now? I'm not a fan of grindclock, but it might be important in the mirror, usually I bring in +3 Lurkers, + 3 Negate, + 2 Thoughtseize and + 1 Pearl Lake Ancient.
My results today:
Local FNM (Held Saturday the 14th) 1st Place, 2 wins , 1 tie.
Vs Mono Red Aggro Result 2-0 Win
Vs Abzan Control/ MidrangeResult 1-1 Tie (Went to rounds)
Vs G/W DevotionResult 2-0 WinI tweaked the deck for this match up. I kept cool, and waited to counter his biggest threats. Namely Whisperwood Elemental and Mastery of the Unseen. I let a lot of things resolve, all the while using my life as a resource. Even though my opponent out me at 5 and 1 both games, I stabilized via Perilous Vault and Ugin.
NOtes: G/w Devotion:
I didn't feel threatened, there was a lot of hype going into this match and even though we got a bunch of onlookers, I kept it cool and let him chip away. I let quite a bit resolve, holding back counters and Downfalls for his real threats. This made him nervous as he saw he'd overextended. The Vaults made a huge difference, and I was able to Crux, first, vault and Ugin all in the same match up.
SB:
I felt like we really measured up well, so I was conservative. - 1 Crux, -2 Ashiok, -1 Bile Blight, added in + 1 Disdainful Stroke, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Pearl Lake Ancient.
Vs Abzan, this build had so many threats game 1, I didn't draw all but 1 Dissolve and once my spot removal was used up, just as I was about to stablize for good, a darn Rhino slipped by and got me when I was at 3 life!! GRR!! lol Game 2, I sided in + 3 Negate, +1 Disdainful Stroke, +1 Thoughtseize. PLA and Ugin rode me to victory, he ran out of gas, and I had a hand full of counters and them some. Too bad we tied, it was a good match.
Here's what Sam Black said about Aetherspouts in his article on GW Devotion earlier this week:
If you're going to try to play U/B Control, you should probably at least have the right sweepers. There have been a lot of times playing against U/B Control online where I've known this is the only thing that would beat me, but I've ignored it because they never have it. If you actually had it, things would go quite a bit better for you. This answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance. If U/B Control started playing a few of these in addition to Perilous Vault, then I'd actually start to get worried about the matchup.
This, and the fact that Adrian Sullivan returned to them, convinced me to replace one of my Cruxes for one in the main deck.
Wouldn't it be better just to play more vaults?
It does all the same things that Sam Black said
answers the end of turn Mastery of the Unseen activations, Fleecemane Lion, and dodges Whisperwood Elemental and Valorous Stance.
except it exiles which is pretty good.
With x3 Crux of Fate, x2 Vaults and x2 Ugins main I never seem to have trouble vs GW. I win the vast majority of the time (so far 2/3 match wins online VS manifest)
Aethersprouts is worse than crux IMO. Especially against GW Manifest.
I haven't played the GW Devotion matchup yet with UB, so I'll take your word for it. Crux doesn't seem well suited for the matchup given the Whisperwood interaction, but maybe that just isn't as relevant as it looks?
In my mainboard, I'm on 3 Perilous Vault, 1 Crux, 1 Aetherspouts, 2 Drown in Sorrow right now.
Don't get me wrong, GW is a very grindy match-up. But you can win even if they have mastery of the unseen in play. This weekend I went to GP cleveland and participated in the standard plus event.
Typically I only ever use my downfalls on whisperwood elementals. For that reason I never have to worry about the Whisperwood interaction. Also: Whisperwood only works if they have a bunch of non-manifest guys.
I try to keep their mana dorks under control so on average the GW player only has one maybe two other non-manifest creatures.
I can say this with certainty though: The key to winning that matchup is Ashiok and Vault. The deck has trouble dealing with both.
I took this list to a win-case in the Central PA region. 2-3.
Round 1: 2-0 UR Control. Fairly easy. Resolve Ashiok, go to work, hold up Negate
.
Round 2: 1-2 Sultai Control. I win game one after a resolved Silumgar. I figured he didn't have Disdainful Strokes or Dissolves so I just jammed turn 8 or so.
I lose game two after he leads off with an early Ashiok and other threats as he backs them up with other threats. He has all 4 Negates and 4 Thoughtseizes this game and that's pretty hard to beat. He runs me out of cards as his Digs are more efficient and easier to back up with Negates.
Game 3 is a grindfest and look to be in my favor after I stabilize with a Silumgar after he strips my entire hand with discard the first 4 turns. I'm at 4 life due to Satyr beats. However, he resolves one Silumgar of his own (still beating me in CA due to efficient DTTs and holy moly more Negates) and a Tasigur the turn after. I don't see a DTT or Jace's Ingenuity all game (well, I did, but it was stripped by an early Thoughtseize intended to protect a Deathdealer), which is pretty bad. I deal with Tasigur. He DTT EOT and grabs and Ugin and a Negate. I lose.
It's really hard to win when your opponent fires off 3 more DTT than you did. If I played this differently, I could've mitigated the two for ones a little better and given myself more outs to grabbing DTT and resolving them. Whereas I was proactive about Negating his walkers (specifically Kiora and Garruk since they're two for ones or cycle generally), I think trying to set up a protected DTT or Ingenuity would've been better. While I didn't see the draw spells, Sultai Control sides into better threats so you need to be able to protect the spells that let you keep pace.
Round 3: GW Devotion 2-0. Easy peasy. Resolve early Ashiok. Win game. Resolve Interpret the Signs. Reveal DTT. Live the dream.
Round 4: RG Beatdown 1-2. I win game one after he keeps a bad hand. I then succumb to turn 2 Rabblemaster the next game. I lose to missing land drops 5-7 game 3. Which is sort of expected. RG Beatdown is very hard to beat due to it's ability to stretch your removal. I usually am the RG Aggro player, so this felt pretty bad.
Round 5: Mono-Red Aggro 1-2. He wins dice roll in game one. Kablooie.
I win game two after resolving an early Drifting D. He left in Hordeling Outburst for some reason.
I lose game three after he sides well. He has the two and three mana dashers that avoid all 3 Drown in Sorrows. In retrospect, Pharika's Cure would be much better post board, or at least a split between them and Drown. The aggro player expects the Drowns so I was only ever to get a one for one out of them. It's a difficult MU so I didn't feel too bad. Seeing Murk Lurkers would've been sick but that's asking a bit much.
This deck needs Anticipate so it stops having games where it gets to 4 mana and then just clunks out.
Things I liked: Having the 3rd Vault in the board.
Silumgar just in general.
Things that people will likely ask but I will proactively address:Why Vaults and Drifting D? What happens when you have to reset? Never had this issue. Might come up in the future but I don't see it as a problem. 27 lands? Neither 27 lands or 28 lands is correct for this deck. Actually, there is not a correct number. A lot of games you flood and a lot of games you screw. Anticipate shores this up.
In sum, I think I had a couple minor misplays that cost me against Sultai. RG aggro and mono-red aggro aren't decks you want to see. The mono-red aggro game alerted me to the dash and Drown in Sorrow issue, which is helpful.
GW is isn't super hard. Just strip the important stuff and try to resolve a Vault to clean up enchants.
I took this list to a win-case in the Central PA region. 2-3.
Round 1: 2-0 UR Control. Fairly easy. Resolve Ashiok, go to work, hold up Negate
.
Round 2: 1-2 Sultai Control. I win game one after a resolved Silumgar. I figured he didn't have Disdainful Strokes or Dissolves so I just jammed turn 8 or so.
I lose game two after he leads off with an early Ashiok and other threats as he backs them up with other threats. He has all 4 Negates and 4 Thoughtseizes this game and that's pretty hard to beat. He runs me out of cards as his Digs are more efficient and easier to back up with Negates.
Game 3 is a grindfest and look to be in my favor after I stabilize with a Silumgar after he strips my entire hand with discard the first 4 turns. I'm at 4 life due to Satyr beats. However, he resolves one Silumgar of his own (still beating me in CA due to efficient DTTs and holy moly more Negates) and a Tasigur the turn after. I don't see a DTT or Jace's Ingenuity all game (well, I did, but it was stripped by an early Thoughtseize intended to protect a Deathdealer), which is pretty bad. I deal with Tasigur. He DTT EOT and grabs and Ugin and a Negate. I lose.
It's really hard to win when your opponent fires off 3 more DTT than you did. If I played this differently, I could've mitigated the two for ones a little better and given myself more outs to grabbing DTT and resolving them. Whereas I was proactive about Negating his walkers (specifically Kiora and Garruk since they're two for ones or cycle generally), I think trying to set up a protected DTT or Ingenuity would've been better. While I didn't see the draw spells, Sultai Control sides into better threats so you need to be able to protect the spells that let you keep pace.
Round 3: GW Devotion 2-0. Easy peasy. Resolve early Ashiok. Win game. Resolve Interpret the Signs. Reveal DTT. Live the dream.
Round 4: RG Beatdown 1-2. I win game one after he keeps a bad hand. I then succumb to turn 2 Rabblemaster the next game. I lose to missing land drops 5-7 game 3. Which is sort of expected. RG Beatdown is very hard to beat due to it's ability to stretch your removal. I usually am the RG Aggro player, so this felt pretty bad.
Round 5: Mono-Red Aggro 1-2. He wins dice roll in game one. Kablooie.
I win game two after resolving an early Drifting D. He left in Hordeling Outburst for some reason.
I lose game three after he sides well. He has the two and three mana dashers that avoid all 3 Drown in Sorrows. In retrospect, Pharika's Cure would be much better post board, or at least a split between them and Drown. The aggro player expects the Drowns so I was only ever to get a one for one out of them. It's a difficult MU so I didn't feel too bad. Seeing Murk Lurkers would've been sick but that's asking a bit much.
This deck needs Anticipate so it stops having games where it gets to 4 mana and then just clunks out.
Things I liked: Having the 3rd Vault in the board.
Silumgar just in general.
Things that people will likely ask but I will proactively address:Why Vaults and Drifting D? What happens when you have to reset? Never had this issue. Might come up in the future but I don't see it as a problem. 27 lands? Neither 27 lands or 28 lands is correct for this deck. Actually, there is not a correct number. A lot of games you flood and a lot of games you screw. Anticipate shores this up.
In sum, I think I had a couple minor misplays that cost me against Sultai. RG aggro and mono-red aggro aren't decks you want to see. The mono-red aggro game alerted me to the dash and Drown in Sorrow issue, which is helpful.
GW is isn't super hard. Just strip the important stuff and try to resolve a Vault to clean up enchants.
I have to disagree with your analysis of Ugin. It wins games. In many cases ugin reads "win target game".
I can't even begin to count the number of times where finding an Ugin late game ended up winning the game on the spot, especially against RW and RUW aggro variants.
Hi everyone. New UB pilot here, having only made and played it for a couple of weeks. I played the list below at my local FNM this week with mixed results, and thought I'd ask for opinions of the people that know more about it than me!
Round 1 - RG ascendancy combo. Lost the first game, made a few sideboard changes, won game 2 with 5 minutes to spare, so ended a 1-1 tie.
Round 2 - Nylea and friends. Should have won game 1, but screwed up. Got him to 10 with a PLA on the board. Forgot it had prowess, so should have cast the Ugin, attacked, then +2. Instead he top-decked a Crater's Claws and killed me. Mana screwed in game 2 (only 4 land in 7-8 turns, no duals). Lost 0-2.
Round 3 - Red heroic hasty. Swarmed in game 1 and 3, but got down 3 Omenspeakers and a Disowned Ancestor that I sideboarded in for a large wall. Thousand Winds and Ugin wiped up. Lost 1-2.
Round 4 - Another RG ascendancy deck, but it imploded on itself. Game one he drew nothing but land and mana dorks, game two he mulliganed to 5 and still drew no land. 2-0 win.
That's a fairly typical mix for my local meta, with Abzan midrange and RW/heroic decks as well as a few other UB controls that I haven't played. My friend plays an Abzan midrange, and I can usually hold my own against that.
Any changes/suggestions are welcomed... Right now I have a couple of Ashioks on the way, along with a pair of Drown in Sorrow for the sideboard. I'm thinking of switching out the Thousand Winds for a second PLA (the creatures are what I have right now, hence the mis-match). Oh, and one other consideration - Taigam's Scheming or Dig? I know Dig gives more cards, but Taigam's is less mana (not counting delve), so leaves more open for counters. There's also a couple of Dragonlord Silumgars on pre-order too =) He seems to be the only mainboard change that I'd have from DTK, with Duress, Self-Inflicted Wound, Encase in Ice, and a Necromaster Dragon as possible sideboard cards... Anyone think anything different? Negate? Stubborn Denial? Disdainful Stroke (sideboard maybe...)? Nullify?
My one concern with my current build is the lack of board presence in the first few turns, so I usually get knocked to a point of no recovery (hence my attempt to survive with the pair of Palace Sieges). What's the best way to mitigate that? I put the Omenspeakers in to try for blockers, and was considering a pair of Sigiled Starfish in the sideboard if I need more.
I read somewhere about a tactic to play few to no Despise/Thoughtseize/Hero's Downfall in the first game and concentrate on countering. Then the relevant removal goes in for game 2. What are people's opinions of that method of play?
I have to disagree with your analysis of Ugin. It wins games. In many cases ugin reads "win target game".
I can't even begin to count the number of times where finding an Ugin late game ended up winning the game on the spot, especially against RW and RUW aggro variants.
I mean, my analysis was, "I never brought him in once." Admittedly, I never played UW Heroic, RW, or Jeskai aggro the day of.
Outside of UW (which isn't great), are RW or Jeskai even bad matchups? I was under the impression that there were only difficult if they got an aggressive start. 8 mana is a lot and I lost games waaaay before I got to 8 mana.
I understand he's super powerful, but 8 mana is a ton. In the past, as more cards enter the standard card pool, the format gets faster. Ugin's power level might keep him relevant moving forward, but I'm hesitant to have him anywhere other than the sideboard. Week 1 of DTK, if you sit down across from the common red mage, an 8 mana spell is a functional mulligan and isn't something I'd hope to see in an opening hand. If you get to 8 mana to cast him, well then just about any wincon would've gotten you there. Not to mention the redundancy of Vault and Ugin in a Vault UB build.
UB has a wealth of good finishers. Ugin is probably fine but I prefer efficiency to power level.
I was under the impression that there were only difficult if they got an aggressive start. 8 mana is a lot and I lost games waaaay before I got to 8 mana.
I understand he's super powerful, but 8 mana is a ton. In the past, as more cards enter the standard card pool, the format gets faster. Ugin's power level might keep him relevant moving forward, but I'm hesitant to have him anywhere other than the sideboard. Week 1 of DTK, if you sit down across from the common red mage, an 8 mana spell is a functional mulligan and isn't something I'd hope to see in an opening hand. If you get to 8 mana to cast him, well then just about any wincon would've gotten you there. Not to mention the redundancy of Vault and Ugin in a Vault UB build.
Well said. I ran 2 in my maindeck and it just always ended up in my opening hand. Even now I hesitantly sideboard it in against non Abzan Midrange decks and end up dying with the card in hand in what feels like the majority of games I do lose. It goes:
"OK, I need to draw something in 2 turns. This card into that card, or a draw spell for some rebuys. Come on baby!"
You only lose games where you could cast an Ugin against Big Dumb Green decks or Control mirrors. In other matchups, nearly anything else is better. It was the same with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, which I jammed in Grixis for the longest. The only answer was the color restricted Dreadbore, and his Mind Control ability was way better than what Ugin brings to the table against Midrange and Control. 8 is just an obscene amount of mana. One doesn't just hit 8 the turn after you hit 7. 8 mana is so far into the lategame that whoever was talking about Ugin being "win target game" must have been referring to being in a topdeck war, where anything costing more than 4 was going to do it.
Lexi, thanks for the comments. It looks a budget deck as that is how it started I'm working to improve it, and hoping by posting (and reading postings) in here I will. Your argument on Dig vs Taigam is great, and really helpful. I had toyed with including Dismal Backwater AND the Temples, but wasn't sure how that would slow down mana availability with 8 CIPT lands, but looking back, it seems like not too bad an idea. They will be the first things to switch out for the next round (and the Ashiok's too!).
EDIT: Just to clarify - it looks budget because it was made out of what I had pulled from sealed decks and pre-releases, with the odd card stolen from friends. With hep from you guys, I'm trying to take it out of the "budget" category" in to the "competitive" category. Although up here in Alaska, we don't have too much more competitive than FNM, but I'd love to Top 4 that every so often! I didn't want to go out and buy a load of cards only to find that they didn't work, or better ones were available.
You want ugins. See them as repeatble vaults with built in lightning bolts. Ugin wins games. I think you mades quite a few mistakes not bringing him or having him main.
I wouldn't call them mistakes.
r1. UR Control -- Ashiok and Drifting D are faster.
r2. Sultai Control -- Doesn't clean up opposing Ugins. Dies to Hero's Downfall and doesn't replace himself. Tasigurs (a threat that replaces himself), counters, discard, and PLA were probably enough. I didn't hit draw spells which probably got me. I left in one Vault since I knew of the Deathdealer plan.
r3. GW -- I probably could've sided him in this MU. Didn't want an awkward manifest + Ugin problem. So just brought in Vault and Whelming Wave (which I forgot to list in my SB). I was sort of preboarded for this MU.
r4. RG Aggro -- The games I lost, I died before 8 mana. Irrelevant.
r5. RDW -- Won when I got to 8 mana on Drifting D. The games I lost I never hit 8.
Now Ugin is a fine card, but I don't think not playing Ugin is what's wrong with my gameplan.
Acting like this guy is a lifeboat for the deck is outrageous and narrow in thinking.
I was under the impression that there were only difficult if they got an aggressive start. 8 mana is a lot and I lost games waaaay before I got to 8 mana.
I understand he's super powerful, but 8 mana is a ton. In the past, as more cards enter the standard card pool, the format gets faster. Ugin's power level might keep him relevant moving forward, but I'm hesitant to have him anywhere other than the sideboard. Week 1 of DTK, if you sit down across from the common red mage, an 8 mana spell is a functional mulligan and isn't something I'd hope to see in an opening hand. If you get to 8 mana to cast him, well then just about any wincon would've gotten you there. Not to mention the redundancy of Vault and Ugin in a Vault UB build.
Well said. I ran 2 in my maindeck and it just always ended up in my opening hand. Even now I hesitantly sideboard it in against non Abzan Midrange decks and end up dying with the card in hand in what feels like the majority of games I do lose. It goes:
"OK, I need to draw something in 2 turns. This card into that card, or a draw spell for some rebuys. Come on baby!"
You only lose games where you could cast an Ugin against Big Dumb Green decks or Control mirrors. In other matchups, nearly anything else is better. It was the same with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, which I jammed in Grixis for the longest. The only answer was the color restricted Dreadbore, and his Mind Control ability was way better than what Ugin brings to the table against Midrange and Control. 8 is just an obscene amount of mana. One doesn't just hit 8 the turn after you hit 7. 8 mana is so far into the lategame that whoever was talking about Ugin being "win target game" must have been referring to being in a topdeck war, where anything costing more than 4 was going to do it.
I think Ugin belongs in the sideboard.
Again, I can't agree with that. The only decks that I don't find ugin useful are boss sleigh and rug (the aggro variant that plays frost walkers). Against every other deck it is wonderful.
Also: I was not referring to a top deck war when I said ugin can often win you the game out right (even from a loosing position). That happens all the time especially against RW decks.
Ugin is far more powerful than Nicole bolas. There is a reason ugin is begining to see play in eternal formats like legacy. Also modern play. Having a percinous deed on a stick is simple awesome.
You only lose games where you could cast an Ugin against Big Dumb Green decks or Control mirrors. In other matchups, nearly anything else is better. It was the same with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, which I jammed in Grixis for the longest. The only answer was the color restricted Dreadbore, and his Mind Control ability was way better than what Ugin brings to the table against Midrange and Control. 8 is just an obscene amount of mana. One doesn't just hit 8 the turn after you hit 7. 8 mana is so far into the lategame that whoever was talking about Ugin being "win target game" must have been referring to being in a topdeck war, where anything costing more than 4 was going to do it.
I think Ugin belongs in the sideboard.
We're running 28 lands and a lot of card draw; it's not that difficult to hit your first 8 land drops. If I stumble on my mana, it's usually around turn 5 (preventing me from casting Ingenuity). [This is where we all rejoice at the thought of Anticipate entering the format.]
Ugin is certainly expensive (and terrible to have in your opening hand), but the raw power and versatility makes him difficult to cut. Nicol Bolas may be able to Mind Control, but Ugin can Perilous Vault... nearly anyway. I look at him as an expensive wrath that sticks around as a wincon.
With the rise of GW Devotion, I have moved down to 1 copy in my main deck, for another Vault as a concession to manifest, but I'm not even convinced that that is right. If true aggro decks start to become more prevalent, then we may need to reevaluate, but in the current standard, I'm very happy to have Ugin.
Ok, slight change of subject. Going back to Lexi's comment on the last page about card advantage, I've noticed that most UB decks are running a 4/3 mix of Dig and Ingenuity. Why no Treasure Cruise? Surely that's just as good as Ingenuity, giving 3 cards for one?
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You don't have to hit whisperwood. There are plenty of other relative good creatures (Courser, worldeater, etc.) to hit.
Courser is actually amazing to hit. Slows down their draw power and allows your to filter through your deck faster to find answers.
EDIT: if you are able to cast a whisperwood off of Ashiok, it is VERY difficult for the GW player to win.
A card that has a 30% chance to win you the game outright... is ok in my books
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Hopefully I don't go 2-2 again because of time ._.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
This, and the fact that Adrian Sullivan returned to them, convinced me to replace one of my Cruxes for one in the main deck.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Standard: UBR Grixis Control
Modern: U Merfolk
Commander: UB Wydwen, the biting gale
Wouldn't it be better just to play more vaults?
It does all the same things that Sam Black said except it exiles which is pretty good.
With x3 Crux of Fate, x2 Vaults and x2 Ugins main I never seem to have trouble vs GW. I win the vast majority of the time (so far 2/3 match wins online VS manifest)
Aethersprouts is worse than crux IMO. Especially against GW Manifest.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I haven't played the GW Devotion matchup yet with UB, so I'll take your word for it. Crux doesn't seem well suited for the matchup given the Whisperwood interaction, but maybe that just isn't as relevant as it looks?
In my mainboard, I'm on 3 Perilous Vault, 1 Crux, 1 Aetherspouts, 2 Drown in Sorrow right now.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
My results today:
Local FNM (Held Saturday the 14th) 1st Place, 2 wins , 1 tie.
Vs Mono Red Aggro Result 2-0 Win
Vs Abzan Control/ MidrangeResult 1-1 Tie (Went to rounds)
Vs G/W DevotionResult 2-0 WinI tweaked the deck for this match up. I kept cool, and waited to counter his biggest threats. Namely Whisperwood Elemental and Mastery of the Unseen. I let a lot of things resolve, all the while using my life as a resource. Even though my opponent out me at 5 and 1 both games, I stabilized via Perilous Vault and Ugin.
NOtes: G/w Devotion:
I didn't feel threatened, there was a lot of hype going into this match and even though we got a bunch of onlookers, I kept it cool and let him chip away. I let quite a bit resolve, holding back counters and Downfalls for his real threats. This made him nervous as he saw he'd overextended. The Vaults made a huge difference, and I was able to Crux, first, vault and Ugin all in the same match up.
SB:
I felt like we really measured up well, so I was conservative. - 1 Crux, -2 Ashiok, -1 Bile Blight, added in + 1 Disdainful Stroke, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Pearl Lake Ancient.
Vs Abzan, this build had so many threats game 1, I didn't draw all but 1 Dissolve and once my spot removal was used up, just as I was about to stablize for good, a darn Rhino slipped by and got me when I was at 3 life!! GRR!! lol Game 2, I sided in + 3 Negate, +1 Disdainful Stroke, +1 Thoughtseize. PLA and Ugin rode me to victory, he ran out of gas, and I had a hand full of counters and them some. Too bad we tied, it was a good match.
My List:
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Dismal Backwater
1x Flooded Strand
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Radiant Fountain
5x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Bile Blight
4x Dig Through Time
2x Disdainful Stroke
4x Dissolve
4x Hero's Downfall
3x Jace's Ingenuity
2x Crux of Fate
2x Thoughtseize
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Disdainful Stroke
3x Drown in Sorrow
3x Jorubai Murk Lurker
3x Negate
1x Pearl Lake Ancient
2x Thoughtseize
I have more results and stuff up on my tappedout account here:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-01-15-Ebh-ub-control/
-------------------------------------------------------
Is U/B Dragon Control going to be something we can try once DTK Comes out? Silumgar looks playablish...
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Don't get me wrong, GW is a very grindy match-up. But you can win even if they have mastery of the unseen in play. This weekend I went to GP cleveland and participated in the standard plus event.
Typically I only ever use my downfalls on whisperwood elementals. For that reason I never have to worry about the Whisperwood interaction. Also: Whisperwood only works if they have a bunch of non-manifest guys.
I try to keep their mana dorks under control so on average the GW player only has one maybe two other non-manifest creatures.
I can say this with certainty though: The key to winning that matchup is Ashiok and Vault. The deck has trouble dealing with both.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4x Polluted Delta
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Dismal Backwater
1x Radiant Fountain
2x Evolving Wilds
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6x Island
5x Swamp
Instants and Sorceries (29)
2x Negate
4x Dissolve
1x Disdainful Stroke
2x Thoughtseize
4x Hero's Downfall
3x Bile Blight
2x Jace's Ingenuity
1x Interpret the Signs
4x Dig Through Time
1x Murderous Cut
1x Silence the Believers
2x Crux of Fate
2x Perilous Vault
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2x Jorubai Murk Lurker
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Perilous Vault
2x Thoughtseize
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Drown in Sorrow
1x Pearl Lake Ancient
I took this list to a win-case in the Central PA region. 2-3.
.
This deck needs Anticipate so it stops having games where it gets to 4 mana and then just clunks out.
Things I liked: Having the 3rd Vault in the board.
Silumgar just in general.
Things I didn't like: Interpret the Signs should just be Jace's Ingenuity but that's just not as fun...
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon in the sideboard. I never brought him in once.
Disdainful Stroke was ok at best. Maybe another Negate in the sideboard.
Things that people will likely ask but I will proactively address: Why Vaults and Drifting D? What happens when you have to reset? Never had this issue. Might come up in the future but I don't see it as a problem.
27 lands? Neither 27 lands or 28 lands is correct for this deck. Actually, there is not a correct number. A lot of games you flood and a lot of games you screw. Anticipate shores this up.
In sum, I think I had a couple minor misplays that cost me against Sultai. RG aggro and mono-red aggro aren't decks you want to see. The mono-red aggro game alerted me to the dash and Drown in Sorrow issue, which is helpful.
GW is isn't super hard. Just strip the important stuff and try to resolve a Vault to clean up enchants.
I have to disagree with your analysis of Ugin. It wins games. In many cases ugin reads "win target game".
I can't even begin to count the number of times where finding an Ugin late game ended up winning the game on the spot, especially against RW and RUW aggro variants.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
14 Island
5 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
Blue
2 Void Snare
4 Omenspeaker
2 Taigam's Scheming
1 Voyage's End
2 Whisk Away
2 Crippling Chill
4 Dissolve
4 Dissipate
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Despise
2 Palace Siege
2 Crux of Fate
1 Murderous Cut
Creatures/win-cons
2 Torrent Elemental
2 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Thousand Winds
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Round 1 - RG ascendancy combo. Lost the first game, made a few sideboard changes, won game 2 with 5 minutes to spare, so ended a 1-1 tie.
Round 2 - Nylea and friends. Should have won game 1, but screwed up. Got him to 10 with a PLA on the board. Forgot it had prowess, so should have cast the Ugin, attacked, then +2. Instead he top-decked a Crater's Claws and killed me. Mana screwed in game 2 (only 4 land in 7-8 turns, no duals). Lost 0-2.
Round 3 - Red heroic hasty. Swarmed in game 1 and 3, but got down 3 Omenspeakers and a Disowned Ancestor that I sideboarded in for a large wall. Thousand Winds and Ugin wiped up. Lost 1-2.
Round 4 - Another RG ascendancy deck, but it imploded on itself. Game one he drew nothing but land and mana dorks, game two he mulliganed to 5 and still drew no land. 2-0 win.
That's a fairly typical mix for my local meta, with Abzan midrange and RW/heroic decks as well as a few other UB controls that I haven't played. My friend plays an Abzan midrange, and I can usually hold my own against that.
Any changes/suggestions are welcomed... Right now I have a couple of Ashioks on the way, along with a pair of Drown in Sorrow for the sideboard. I'm thinking of switching out the Thousand Winds for a second PLA (the creatures are what I have right now, hence the mis-match). Oh, and one other consideration - Taigam's Scheming or Dig? I know Dig gives more cards, but Taigam's is less mana (not counting delve), so leaves more open for counters. There's also a couple of Dragonlord Silumgars on pre-order too =) He seems to be the only mainboard change that I'd have from DTK, with Duress, Self-Inflicted Wound, Encase in Ice, and a Necromaster Dragon as possible sideboard cards... Anyone think anything different? Negate? Stubborn Denial? Disdainful Stroke (sideboard maybe...)? Nullify?
My one concern with my current build is the lack of board presence in the first few turns, so I usually get knocked to a point of no recovery (hence my attempt to survive with the pair of Palace Sieges). What's the best way to mitigate that? I put the Omenspeakers in to try for blockers, and was considering a pair of Sigiled Starfish in the sideboard if I need more.
I read somewhere about a tactic to play few to no Despise/Thoughtseize/Hero's Downfall in the first game and concentrate on countering. Then the relevant removal goes in for game 2. What are people's opinions of that method of play?
Thanks for comments!
I mean, my analysis was, "I never brought him in once." Admittedly, I never played UW Heroic, RW, or Jeskai aggro the day of.
Outside of UW (which isn't great), are RW or Jeskai even bad matchups? I was under the impression that there were only difficult if they got an aggressive start. 8 mana is a lot and I lost games waaaay before I got to 8 mana.
I understand he's super powerful, but 8 mana is a ton. In the past, as more cards enter the standard card pool, the format gets faster. Ugin's power level might keep him relevant moving forward, but I'm hesitant to have him anywhere other than the sideboard. Week 1 of DTK, if you sit down across from the common red mage, an 8 mana spell is a functional mulligan and isn't something I'd hope to see in an opening hand. If you get to 8 mana to cast him, well then just about any wincon would've gotten you there. Not to mention the redundancy of Vault and Ugin in a Vault UB build.
UB has a wealth of good finishers. Ugin is probably fine but I prefer efficiency to power level.
Well said. I ran 2 in my maindeck and it just always ended up in my opening hand. Even now I hesitantly sideboard it in against non Abzan Midrange decks and end up dying with the card in hand in what feels like the majority of games I do lose. It goes:
You only lose games where you could cast an Ugin against Big Dumb Green decks or Control mirrors. In other matchups, nearly anything else is better. It was the same with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, which I jammed in Grixis for the longest. The only answer was the color restricted Dreadbore, and his Mind Control ability was way better than what Ugin brings to the table against Midrange and Control. 8 is just an obscene amount of mana. One doesn't just hit 8 the turn after you hit 7. 8 mana is so far into the lategame that whoever was talking about Ugin being "win target game" must have been referring to being in a topdeck war, where anything costing more than 4 was going to do it.
I think Ugin belongs in the sideboard.
EDIT: Just to clarify - it looks budget because it was made out of what I had pulled from sealed decks and pre-releases, with the odd card stolen from friends. With hep from you guys, I'm trying to take it out of the "budget" category" in to the "competitive" category. Although up here in Alaska, we don't have too much more competitive than FNM, but I'd love to Top 4 that every so often! I didn't want to go out and buy a load of cards only to find that they didn't work, or better ones were available.
I wouldn't call them mistakes.
r1. UR Control -- Ashiok and Drifting D are faster.
r2. Sultai Control -- Doesn't clean up opposing Ugins. Dies to Hero's Downfall and doesn't replace himself. Tasigurs (a threat that replaces himself), counters, discard, and PLA were probably enough. I didn't hit draw spells which probably got me. I left in one Vault since I knew of the Deathdealer plan.
r3. GW -- I probably could've sided him in this MU. Didn't want an awkward manifest + Ugin problem. So just brought in Vault and Whelming Wave (which I forgot to list in my SB). I was sort of preboarded for this MU.
r4. RG Aggro -- The games I lost, I died before 8 mana. Irrelevant.
r5. RDW -- Won when I got to 8 mana on Drifting D. The games I lost I never hit 8.
Now Ugin is a fine card, but I don't think not playing Ugin is what's wrong with my gameplan.
Acting like this guy is a lifeboat for the deck is outrageous and narrow in thinking.
Again, I can't agree with that. The only decks that I don't find ugin useful are boss sleigh and rug (the aggro variant that plays frost walkers). Against every other deck it is wonderful.
Also: I was not referring to a top deck war when I said ugin can often win you the game out right (even from a loosing position). That happens all the time especially against RW decks.
Ugin is far more powerful than Nicole bolas. There is a reason ugin is begining to see play in eternal formats like legacy. Also modern play. Having a percinous deed on a stick is simple awesome.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
We're running 28 lands and a lot of card draw; it's not that difficult to hit your first 8 land drops. If I stumble on my mana, it's usually around turn 5 (preventing me from casting Ingenuity). [This is where we all rejoice at the thought of Anticipate entering the format.]
Ugin is certainly expensive (and terrible to have in your opening hand), but the raw power and versatility makes him difficult to cut. Nicol Bolas may be able to Mind Control, but Ugin can Perilous Vault... nearly anyway. I look at him as an expensive wrath that sticks around as a wincon.
With the rise of GW Devotion, I have moved down to 1 copy in my main deck, for another Vault as a concession to manifest, but I'm not even convinced that that is right. If true aggro decks start to become more prevalent, then we may need to reevaluate, but in the current standard, I'm very happy to have Ugin.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control