i like this build, seems to address many problems mine was having. i think 27 is the sweet number of creatures, i've only ever missed with sidisi once playing this number while still drawing other spells generally on time. a few questions:
to answer some of my own questions, i don't really like sultai soothsayer. forbidden alchemy attached to a body that can block siege rhino is nice and all but being one full turn slower than what it is supposed to check is a bummer. i am however liking prognostic sphinx a lot in its place. not only it checks siege rhino on curve, it also blocks sarkhan and stormbreath while being resilient to removal. it is also an occasional discard outlet when we want to put a fatty on the graveyard for immediate reanimation with whip of erebos or just dumping stuff to fuel delve (empty the pits, treasure cut, murderous cut). i'm at two copies and maybe a third and even a fourth are justified.
hornet queen has been unconvincing and necropolis fiend has been very hit or miss.
Forgive me, but I don't see much power in Sultai so far. Maybe we will get better cards for it in the next set. But right now it feels underwhelming. Then again it's only week one. Maybe it can be fine tuned even more as we go along.
I'm really curious to see this deck going forward now that everyone is gungho about Jeskai Tempo. We are still in the early days of post rotation Standard and I have this feeling like we're nowhere near the archetypes that will stick around. That being said, my only concern in this deck is the lack of higher toughness creatures besides Howler and Mauler. A well timed removal spell will set our lines of play so far back that rebuilding will be problematic, and Sidisi has a huge target painted on her head that can be hit with pretty much all the 2-cmc removals in Standard. At the same time, if Sidisi goes unchecked you can take over the game within a few turns. Once people learn to play against Sidisi, a transformative sideboard could very well take hold of the archetype (I'm thinking more controllish with Ashiok and less dredging, maybe a bit more delve and some of the new counters).
I am *almost* positive that neither Caryatid nor Courser belong in this deck. They're good cards, but have very little interaction with our laser beam focus strategy. Besides, if you're really worried about aggro and lifegain, Whip of Erebos will gain you so much more life than Courser the turn it comes down. Chumping with Wayfinder and an unmorphed Rattleclaw Mystic actually gets you further ahead in your gameplan. Sticking a Nemesis T3 for 3 will hold back even the toughest 4-drops in the format. By the way, if you're playing this archetype without Nemesis you're doing yourself a huge disservice, it's big and dumb but it eats removal egregiously in order to keep your engine creatures alive. If not, it's that much easier to turn it into a 10/10.
I just realized, Prognostic Sphinx looks like a great fit. It can be cast by unmorphing Rattleclaw, is an excellent Bestow target, can protect itself, is a discard outlet and blocks Sarkhan and Stormbreath all day. The scrying can get awkward if you're looking to mill aggressively, but even with one Whip activation you'll get so much value that it's hard to pass up. Definitely worth a couple sideboard slots, along with Herald of Torment to break boardstalls or avoid deathtouch critters; Necropolis Fiend seems like it has potential. I have a feeling that we could be alternating what's in our "delve slots" depending on the matchup, so Cut, Fiend, Cruise, Dig Through Time and even Empty the Pits could come in depending on how the other deck plays. Typically by the time I'm delving I have 8-10 cards in the yard, about 50/50 creatures and non creatures, so exiling creatures has never been an issue for me.
I think G1 you wanna go the combo route and assemble a huge Mauler regardless of who's on the other side... G2 and 3 you might cut back on the gimmick and play the control role with pure value. I'll definitely be transitioning my GB Dredge deck into this new Sultai style, it's more or less what I was expecting come KTK and it looks very fun to play. A bit more resiliency would make it solid I'm sure.
I'm really curious to see this deck going forward now that everyone is gungho about Jeskai Tempo. We are still in the early days of post rotation Standard and I have this feeling like we're nowhere near the archetypes that will stick around. That being said, my only concern in this deck is the lack of higher toughness creatures besides Howler and Mauler. A well timed removal spell will set our lines of play so far back that rebuilding will be problematic, and Sidisi has a huge target painted on her head that can be hit with pretty much all the 2-cmc removals in Standard. At the same time, if Sidisi goes unchecked you can take over the game within a few turns. Once people learn to play against Sidisi, a transformative sideboard could very well take hold of the archetype (I'm thinking more controllish with Ashiok and less dredging, maybe a bit more delve and some of the new counters).
I am *almost* positive that neither Caryatid nor Courser belong in this deck. They're good cards, but have very little interaction with our laser beam focus strategy. Besides, if you're really worried about aggro and lifegain, Whip of Erebos will gain you so much more life than Courser the turn it comes down. Chumping with Wayfinder and an unmorphed Rattleclaw Mystic actually gets you further ahead in your gameplan. Sticking a Nemesis T3 for 3 will hold back even the toughest 4-drops in the format. By the way, if you're playing this archetype without Nemesis you're doing yourself a huge disservice, it's big and dumb but it eats removal egregiously in order to keep your engine creatures alive. If not, it's that much easier to turn it into a 10/10.
I just realized, Prognostic Sphinx looks like a great fit. It can be cast by unmorphing Rattleclaw, is an excellent Bestow target, can protect itself, is a discard outlet and blocks Sarkhan and Stormbreath all day. The scrying can get awkward if you're looking to mill aggressively, but even with one Whip activation you'll get so much value that it's hard to pass up. Definitely worth a couple sideboard slots, along with Herald of Torment to break boardstalls or avoid deathtouch critters; Necropolis Fiend seems like it has potential. I have a feeling that we could be alternating what's in our "delve slots" depending on the matchup, so Cut, Fiend, Cruise, Dig Through Time and even Empty the Pits could come in depending on how the other deck plays. Typically by the time I'm delving I have 8-10 cards in the yard, about 50/50 creatures and non creatures, so exiling creatures has never been an issue for me.
I think G1 you wanna go the combo route and assemble a huge Mauler regardless of who's on the other side... G2 and 3 you might cut back on the gimmick and play the control role with pure value. I'll definitely be transitioning my GB Dredge deck into this new Sultai style, it's more or less what I was expecting come KTK and it looks very fun to play. A bit more resiliency would make it solid I'm sure.
I disagree about courser not being a part of the strategy. Its more about deck thinning. It lets us get to our creatures quicker and get rid of those pesky lands from the top more often. Also, if youre worried about attacking with sidisi and not getting a creature for a token, it gives you a little bit more information about it. Its just overall a great card and synergized QUITE well from my testing.
Courser - Honestly, for all of you saying he has no place in this deck you are sorely mistaken. He is a powerhouse. Thins your deck and makes sure your creatures go where you want them to go. Only found room for 3 so far.
Mystic - Playset.
Herald of Torment - Combo with nighthowler for gg.
Hornet Queen - Honestly a one off for whip or rescue from underworld. Have only gotten her off once so far.
Nemesis of mortals - I was skeptical at first, but if you dont put him in youre an idiot.
Nighthowler - 26/26 nighthowler when i put two of them on sagu mauler. (Which im still undecided on if i want him in the deck or not)
Satyr Wayfinder - Had to drop a card... sadly ended up being him
Sidisi - 3 is enough. Dont need a playset
hero's downfall - as much as murderous cut is nice. Youre going to face planeswalkers. Deal with it.
Rescue from the underworld - End of opp. turn rescue. Target Satyr, target Sidisi. 5 mana for 2 zombies (possible), sidisi and creatures for nighthowler. Still testing it. Seems good.
Commune with the gods - Need a playset
Treasure cruise - Still testing. I wanted to put a delve card in. Its useful to have in this deck.
In case anyone cares, I'm doing a breakdown of how I'm tackling this deck.
With the colors of Blue, Black, and Green, we're very capable of milling ourselves and handling the board. In these colors, specifically in Green, we have a good engine for our deck to run on:
Sidisi is an odd one in the fact that the legendary clause sort of helps us here- we play one Sidisi, bring in another, and put the old Sidisi into our graveyard, fueling Delve even more. I can see shaving one or two of the nagas off, but it's something to consider.
Next, we have a few methods of controlling the board. Filling our graveyard enough is going to take time, so clearing key threats from the board helps us survive to the Big Delve.
The reason I chose Hero's Downfall over Murderous Cut is because it doesn't use our Delve up, allowing us to save our graveyard for a single big "boom". However, Murderous Cut will make it into the sideboard.
Here, we have our Win Conditions. Some use Delve while others don't- still have some testing to do here.
Both the sphinx and the fiend serve as good flying finishers, with Sagu Mauler being a solid Beater and providing a strong board presence. Empty the Pits is the premier win con of the deck, however. Keep in mind it (essentially) is an instant speed Army of the Damned minus the flashback. If we have been exiling conservatively, we can exile a good 20-25 cards from our graveyard and add some mana of our own for 10-16 2/2 Zombies. Nighthowler is interesting in this deck because it forces you to Delve carefully- exiling our own creatures can be detrimental unless it is putting us in a favorable position. I do believe the enchanted hounds can be replaced with something else, however.
We have 6 slots remaining, so I will point towards the following cards:
The Mystics will help us ramp a little faster into all of our powerhouse cards and allow for a potential turn 3 Whip. The Dig Through Times allow us to further search for our Empty the Pits. This card will be a balancing act between casting through Delve or Lands, and it will be worth experimenting with. Finally, the Whips bring back our Fiend and Howlers and just about anything else that we may need in a pinch. Plus, Lifelinked, Nighthowler-bestowed Sagu Mauler can be terrifying.
Now, the mana base. I feel like this is customizable based on budget and personal preference, but here's what I will be running:
Thankfully, we can kill Anafenza, but the two artifacts could create an issue. The latter at least gives us the cards back, but the former utterly ruins the deck.
Aggro decks, run by the Rabblemaster himself, also poses a huge threat. The RabbleRed deck can stomp our deck in the dust while we're still assembling the pieces.
For these two decks, the sideboard is mostly specialized against these decks:
Against the Graveyard haters, we have Naturalize and Reclamation Sage, replacing two copies of Sultai Charm and Dissolve, respectively. We would have to wait for the opponent to tap their artifact, then play Naturalize. Funnily enough, both cards are good cards to destroy Courser of Kruphix with. Reclamation Sage doesn't have the opportunity to deal with a good Tormod's, but it can still destroy Cranial Archive. Murderous Cut is used against the various Green decks for it's potentially cheaper cost- 2 copies of Downfall can be sided out. Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight are (admittedly black-hungry) cheap, potentially board-wiping spells that can shut down a Rabble Red or aggro. Replacing all copies of Sultai Charm is our best bet. Phyrexian Revoker can shut down certain, potential threats, and Dissolve helps us deal with Gods. Rakshasa Vizier is the oddest choice here, but it can be a side-in against Tormod's and Anafenza, creating a "kill now or bad stuff happens" kind of card.
When we finally put all of these pieces together, we get what I'm hoping to run at FNM, Gameday, and (maybe) the Pro Tour (unlikely, but it's worth a shot):
This has been my BUG Delve deck, play tested against: Jeskai Tempo, Azbahn Midrange variants, Mardu Midrange, GR Monsters. Tested well against all of the archetypes stated. I feel that most lists are trying to fit too many cards. I think I have narrowed it down to a consistent deck that performs well and sideboards well. Jeskai Tempo is always a super close match depending on if they side in to make the deck more control/midrange by adding Disdainful Stroke, Negate & Narset, Enlightened Master .
After a few late game Nyx Weaver upkeep triggers,who dat who dat I-G-G-Y doin' her thang and one or two Satyr Wayfinder that were late to a party **NOTE READ WAYFINDER FLAVOR TEXT**, Casting Zombie Disco Squad should result in a scoop on the other side of the table.
"The Sultai would rebuild the empire on the backs of the dead."
More like.
"The Sultai did rebuild the empire on the backs of the dead."
"come into play tapped."
that single line made it unplayable.
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema KappaGBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF GB
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER UB
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE GW
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? UR
Thanks i really appreciate it! I love BUG. I tinkered with so many different Lists for the color combination from BUG walkers, Midrange **the obvious type Courser, elvish mystic, sylvan, HAIL HYDRA, and Big Daddy but it was just lacking the gas Xenagos the Reveler can create. Then I saw Brad Nelson's List from Somerset printed it out play-tested it, brainstormed and came to the conclusion that less is more. A lot of BUG lists look like they spread themselves too far IMO e.g. The more cogs in the machine, the more room for error.
"come into play tapped."
that single line made it unplayable.
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema KappaGBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF GB
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER UB
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE GW
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? UR
I'm personally running 3 courser 1 Nemesis of Mortals 3 eidolon of blossoms and a cpl Gnarled Scarhide, Pharika, Nylea, Sidisi, Wayfinder, Weaver, caryatid, and mystics. Going heavy enchantment, I might try that Sagu Mauler that sounds like it might be worth it. P.s. Don't forget yourstrength from the fallen
I'm personally running 3 courser 1 Nemesis of Mortals 3 eidolon of blossoms and a cpl Gnarled Scarhide, Pharika, Nylea, Sidisi, Wayfinder, Weaver, caryatid, and mystics. Going heavy enchantment, I might try that Sagu Mauler that sounds like it might be worth it. P.s. Don't forget yourstrength from the fallen
Seems like a different deck you're building frankly. Strength from the Fallen in particular seems to run counter to a delve style deck.
Seems like a different deck you're building frankly. Strength from the Fallen in particular seems to run counter to a delve style deck.
You don't have issues with 4x murderous cuts 2xdig through time and 2xempty the pits? Seems like a lot of delve and you took out some mill through commune with the gods. I understand the cut of the whips with only one good target, but the life link is not irrelevant.
Your deck looks like a similar strategy as Brad Nelsons deck which did do pretty well. But it definitely seems like you have too much delve.
As I have been working on this, I've decided that we are sitting between three different dredge decks.
The first is Sultai midrange dredge with hornet queens and sidisi with whips.
The second is the Sultai delve control option with courser, dig through times and more kill spells.
The third is a Sultai aggro dredge deck with more nighthowlers, nemesis or mortals, and sagu maulers
And the fourth is Abzan midrange dredge running siege rhinos and maybe some Ashen riders.
I am stuck between all 4 of them as they all are pretty damn good. I just don't know what the best way to use the graveyard is.
I just updated the OP with the different decklists I've been playing with some updates from what I saw in the thread.
There are some obviously very different strategies that are viable and even mixtures of them could work as well. The goal right now is to find out which type of deck: aggro, midrange, midrange/control, is best suited for the future meta.
Right now I am leaning towards the sultai dredge midrange as the strongest overall.
Notice that, much like I was proposing, it runs no Coursers
Hornet queen is an absurd Whip target, similar if not better in some ways to the late Shadowborn Demon, slowing down the board and giving us some excellent Nighthowler targets. The sideboard creatures seem pretty sweet too.
I feel like Rakshasa Deathdealer would be a natural upgrade for both versions. It's an excellent early play that can attack into most of the small creatures in this format, especially T3+ when you can support it with mana. And if it eats removal, that's ok too, it's not paramount to our strategy. It seems like everyone is running 4-6 pieces of removal, which plays right into our Bestow + Whip strategies.
The thing about Empty the Pits is that you either use it as a finisher or it ends up not doing enough, especially when you run cards that you want to keep in the yard. Cut, Fiend and even Treasure Cruise can waltz around unnecessary yard fodder but Empty is way too expensive to not want to go all in if you get to cast it. In that sense it feels like a skill intensive card but there might be matchups where you can blindly exile everything and make 8-10 zombies easy and take over by sheer numbers against any deck that taps out to play a few, big threats.
I'm really excited about this archetype, it seems like we can afford to run singletons especially in the side which opens up to a toolbox strategy. The only card I wish was Sultai is Siege Rhino, it reminds me of Thragtusk Junk Reanimator.
Why treasure cruise over dig through time, and frankly death dealer is a great late game mana sink. On the part about pits doing nothing, last night someone swung at me with the team for game (including 2 maulers) and before blockers "I emptied my pits and blocked n blew them out lol" MIS-PLAY. Like I said in my earlier post this Delve is a great archetype, but less is more. IMO treasure is inferior than dig, dig through time we go 7 deep to pull 2 cards, that's insane early & late game. That's just what I think
"come into play tapped."
that single line made it unplayable.
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema KappaGBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF GB
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER UB
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE GW
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? UR
Brian DeMars talks about this in his SCG Article from yesterday (link), but long story short it's because of the UU in the cost. An interesting point he brings up is running Cruise over Murderous Cut and just have 4x Hero's Downfall for Elspeth and such... Which I am taking and running with!
Why treasure cruise over dig through time, and frankly death dealer is a great late game mana sink. On the part about pits doing nothing, last night someone swung at me with the team for game (including 2 maulers) and before blockers I emptied my pits and blocked n blew them out lol. Like I said in my earlier post this Delve is a great archetype, but less is more. IMO treasure is inferior than dig, dig through time we go 7 deep to pull 2 cards, that's insane early & late game. That's just what I think
Ironically, your signature quote "come into play tapped." is something you should look at when playing Empty the Pits
Good point. Mis-play on mine and opponents end.
The signature is not a serious statement, but rather something funny I saw on the forum. For the record, just because the card comes into play tapped does not make it unplayable. Its just funny sig.
Brian DeMars talks about this in his SCG Article from yesterday (link), but long story short it's because of the UU in the cost. An interesting point he brings up is running Cruise over Murderous Cut and just have 4x Hero's Downfall for Elspeth and such... Which I am taking and running with!
I can kind of see the UU being a problem, but Demars says, "However, the issue is that Downfall is so much better than Murderous Cut with the flexibility it offers" Well hero's downfall is great, but having Heros downfall AND murderous cut seems better to me, and in a TRI color deck UU shouldn't be a problem. Just to make a point wouldn't the BB in heros downfall be just as restricting as UU? I much would rather dig, for the 2 cards off the top 7 of my deck, rather than net 3 cards and lose most of my Delve resources. Demars also states, "...Whereas "Ancestral Recall" is an irreplaceable effect." Well IMO we do not need an pseudo Ancestral recall in this deck, we need a pseudo tutor to get to the 8 kill spells or a late game threat: Pits or Sphinx or NecroFiend.
"come into play tapped."
that single line made it unplayable.
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema KappaGBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF GB
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER UB
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE GW
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? UR
Yes, Demar's list is tri-colored, but he's also only running 12 blue sources. That's not nearly sufficient enough to run UU in my experience. Also notice that he's only running 4 lands that come into play tapped, which has been something of a revelation in my testing. It's the single most important change that I've made since starting work on this deck 3~ weeks ago.
I'll be sticking with Treasure Cruise + Hero's Downfall for the time being, but there's still plenty of room for improvement. I do miss Murderous Cut, but HD in the mainboard has shored up a lot of holes, as well as opened the door for Treasure Cruise. Cutting to 2 Nighthowlers has been fantastic as well. The first one I draw is almost never worth playing, as you need a few turns to fuel the graveyard. Replacing the other 2 with Herald of Torment is a smart move.
At this point, I'm more or less on Demar's list with minor changes, including +1 land, -1 Whip of Erebos, and significant changes to the sideboard. I would like to work some number of Rakshasa Deathdealer into the main (probably 2), and potentially a 3rd in the board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
The problem between treasure and dig is the two blue like has been said. The deck isn't really tri color. It is gb splashing blue so a lot of times double blue is more difficult. I'd rather pay one blue and have more nontaplands in the deck and draw three than the double blue card that requires me to play more tap lands.
Stain the mind! I choose you! Rabblemaster. *3 rabblemasters exiled*
Next turn
Exile nyx. Return Stain the mind to hand. Convoke, STAIN THE MIND! Sarkan! *2 sarkans exiled*
Stain the mind! I choose you! Rabblemaster. *3 rabblemasters exiled*
Next turn
Exile nyx. Return Stain the mind to hand. Convoke, STAIN THE MIND! Sarkan! *2 sarkans exiled*
Scoop.
Rabble Red: nice durdle, take 12 from the board state you were ignoring.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
to answer some of my own questions, i don't really like sultai soothsayer. forbidden alchemy attached to a body that can block siege rhino is nice and all but being one full turn slower than what it is supposed to check is a bummer. i am however liking prognostic sphinx a lot in its place. not only it checks siege rhino on curve, it also blocks sarkhan and stormbreath while being resilient to removal. it is also an occasional discard outlet when we want to put a fatty on the graveyard for immediate reanimation with whip of erebos or just dumping stuff to fuel delve (empty the pits, treasure cut, murderous cut). i'm at two copies and maybe a third and even a fourth are justified.
hornet queen has been unconvincing and necropolis fiend has been very hit or miss.
Rattleclaw mystic is very underwhelming. Courser or caryatid are way better options.
Definitely 3 sidisi and not 4. Also, she didnt do too well.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
jesus what a difference. completely different deck. wow.
http://imgur.com/yoiIxPd
26/26 trample (hexproof)
I am *almost* positive that neither Caryatid nor Courser belong in this deck. They're good cards, but have very little interaction with our laser beam focus strategy. Besides, if you're really worried about aggro and lifegain, Whip of Erebos will gain you so much more life than Courser the turn it comes down. Chumping with Wayfinder and an unmorphed Rattleclaw Mystic actually gets you further ahead in your gameplan. Sticking a Nemesis T3 for 3 will hold back even the toughest 4-drops in the format. By the way, if you're playing this archetype without Nemesis you're doing yourself a huge disservice, it's big and dumb but it eats removal egregiously in order to keep your engine creatures alive. If not, it's that much easier to turn it into a 10/10.
I just realized, Prognostic Sphinx looks like a great fit. It can be cast by unmorphing Rattleclaw, is an excellent Bestow target, can protect itself, is a discard outlet and blocks Sarkhan and Stormbreath all day. The scrying can get awkward if you're looking to mill aggressively, but even with one Whip activation you'll get so much value that it's hard to pass up. Definitely worth a couple sideboard slots, along with Herald of Torment to break boardstalls or avoid deathtouch critters; Necropolis Fiend seems like it has potential. I have a feeling that we could be alternating what's in our "delve slots" depending on the matchup, so Cut, Fiend, Cruise, Dig Through Time and even Empty the Pits could come in depending on how the other deck plays. Typically by the time I'm delving I have 8-10 cards in the yard, about 50/50 creatures and non creatures, so exiling creatures has never been an issue for me.
I think G1 you wanna go the combo route and assemble a huge Mauler regardless of who's on the other side... G2 and 3 you might cut back on the gimmick and play the control role with pure value. I'll definitely be transitioning my GB Dredge deck into this new Sultai style, it's more or less what I was expecting come KTK and it looks very fun to play. A bit more resiliency would make it solid I'm sure.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
I disagree about courser not being a part of the strategy. Its more about deck thinning. It lets us get to our creatures quicker and get rid of those pesky lands from the top more often. Also, if youre worried about attacking with sidisi and not getting a creature for a token, it gives you a little bit more information about it. Its just overall a great card and synergized QUITE well from my testing.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Elvish Mystic
2x Herald of Torment
1x Hornet Queen
4x Nemesis of Mortals
4x Nighthowler
3x Satyr Wayfinder
3x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3x Forest
2x Island
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Opulent Palace
2x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
3x Temple of Malady
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Rescue from the Underworld
Sorcery (6)
4x Commune with the Gods
2x Treasure Cruise
Artifact (2)
2x Whip of Erebos
Courser - Honestly, for all of you saying he has no place in this deck you are sorely mistaken. He is a powerhouse. Thins your deck and makes sure your creatures go where you want them to go. Only found room for 3 so far.
Mystic - Playset.
Herald of Torment - Combo with nighthowler for gg.
Hornet Queen - Honestly a one off for whip or rescue from underworld. Have only gotten her off once so far.
Nemesis of mortals - I was skeptical at first, but if you dont put him in youre an idiot.
Nighthowler - 26/26 nighthowler when i put two of them on sagu mauler. (Which im still undecided on if i want him in the deck or not)
Satyr Wayfinder - Had to drop a card... sadly ended up being him
Sidisi - 3 is enough. Dont need a playset
hero's downfall - as much as murderous cut is nice. Youre going to face planeswalkers. Deal with it.
Rescue from the underworld - End of opp. turn rescue. Target Satyr, target Sidisi. 5 mana for 2 zombies (possible), sidisi and creatures for nighthowler. Still testing it. Seems good.
Commune with the gods - Need a playset
Treasure cruise - Still testing. I wanted to put a delve card in. Its useful to have in this deck.
Whip of erebos - GG
With the colors of Blue, Black, and Green, we're very capable of milling ourselves and handling the board. In these colors, specifically in Green, we have a good engine for our deck to run on:
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Sidisi is an odd one in the fact that the legendary clause sort of helps us here- we play one Sidisi, bring in another, and put the old Sidisi into our graveyard, fueling Delve even more. I can see shaving one or two of the nagas off, but it's something to consider.
Next, we have a few methods of controlling the board. Filling our graveyard enough is going to take time, so clearing key threats from the board helps us survive to the Big Delve.
4 Sultai Charm
2 Dissolve
The reason I chose Hero's Downfall over Murderous Cut is because it doesn't use our Delve up, allowing us to save our graveyard for a single big "boom". However, Murderous Cut will make it into the sideboard.
Here, we have our Win Conditions. Some use Delve while others don't- still have some testing to do here.
2 Sagu Mauler
1 Necropolis Fiend
1 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Nighthowler
Both the sphinx and the fiend serve as good flying finishers, with Sagu Mauler being a solid Beater and providing a strong board presence. Empty the Pits is the premier win con of the deck, however. Keep in mind it (essentially) is an instant speed Army of the Damned minus the flashback. If we have been exiling conservatively, we can exile a good 20-25 cards from our graveyard and add some mana of our own for 10-16 2/2 Zombies. Nighthowler is interesting in this deck because it forces you to Delve carefully- exiling our own creatures can be detrimental unless it is putting us in a favorable position. I do believe the enchanted hounds can be replaced with something else, however.
We have 6 slots remaining, so I will point towards the following cards:
2 Dig Through Time
2 Whip of Erebos
The Mystics will help us ramp a little faster into all of our powerhouse cards and allow for a potential turn 3 Whip. The Dig Through Times allow us to further search for our Empty the Pits. This card will be a balancing act between casting through Delve or Lands, and it will be worth experimenting with. Finally, the Whips bring back our Fiend and Howlers and just about anything else that we may need in a pinch. Plus, Lifelinked, Nighthowler-bestowed Sagu Mauler can be terrifying.
Now, the mana base. I feel like this is customizable based on budget and personal preference, but here's what I will be running:
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
Again, this is easily changeable, depending on personal preference, budget, etc.
The Sideboard will be very important, mostly because we have three cards that ruin a majority of our deck's function:
Thankfully, we can kill Anafenza, but the two artifacts could create an issue. The latter at least gives us the cards back, but the former utterly ruins the deck.
Aggro decks, run by the Rabblemaster himself, also poses a huge threat. The RabbleRed deck can stomp our deck in the dust while we're still assembling the pieces.
For these two decks, the sideboard is mostly specialized against these decks:
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Murderous Cut
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rakshasha Vizier
2 Dissolve
Against the Graveyard haters, we have Naturalize and Reclamation Sage, replacing two copies of Sultai Charm and Dissolve, respectively. We would have to wait for the opponent to tap their artifact, then play Naturalize. Funnily enough, both cards are good cards to destroy Courser of Kruphix with. Reclamation Sage doesn't have the opportunity to deal with a good Tormod's, but it can still destroy Cranial Archive. Murderous Cut is used against the various Green decks for it's potentially cheaper cost- 2 copies of Downfall can be sided out. Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight are (admittedly black-hungry) cheap, potentially board-wiping spells that can shut down a Rabble Red or aggro. Replacing all copies of Sultai Charm is our best bet. Phyrexian Revoker can shut down certain, potential threats, and Dissolve helps us deal with Gods. Rakshasa Vizier is the oddest choice here, but it can be a side-in against Tormod's and Anafenza, creating a "kill now or bad stuff happens" kind of card.
When we finally put all of these pieces together, we get what I'm hoping to run at FNM, Gameday, and (maybe) the Pro Tour (unlikely, but it's worth a shot):
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Satyr Wayfinder
Side Engine
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Control
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
2 Dissolve
Win Cons
1 Empty the Pits
2 Sagu Mauler
1 Necropolis Fiend
1 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Nighthowler
Other Utilities
2 Elvish Mystic
2 Dig Through Time
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Polluted Delta
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Naturalize
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Murderous Cut
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rakshasha Vizier
2 Dissolve
Thank you for reading through this monster of a text wall. All advice is appreciated.
-Commander-
UBGMill, Sidisi, and Other ShenanigansGBU
WUBRGShingeki no TazriGRBUW
Nyx Weaver has been an allstar and I completely underrated the card; Reach, and Recursion are perfect. I used just one Hero's Downfall three times in one game. Prognostic Sphinx laughs at Elspeth, Sun's Champion's minus ability, blocks Stormbreath Dragon & Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and sets up a three card scry that creates a synergy with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant's triggered abilities. Bluff like i can't delve my Murderous Cut oh wait, I'll pitch one or two cards to Dumbledore Sphinx, THX.
After a few late game Nyx Weaver upkeep triggers,who dat who dat I-G-G-Y doin' her thang and one or two Satyr Wayfinder that were late to a party **NOTE READ WAYFINDER FLAVOR TEXT**, Casting Zombie Disco Squad should result in a scoop on the other side of the table.
"The Sultai would rebuild the empire on the backs of the dead."
More like.
"The Sultai did rebuild the empire on the backs of the dead."
... and a T4 Necropolis Fiend is always fun.
T1: Polluted Delta
T2: crack Polluted Delta & Green LFT, cast Party Boy
T3: LFT, Chump block Party Boy or Cast a Heros Downfall, or crack a Polluted Delta
T4: LFT, Delve 5 cards, the 4 milled from Party Boy or a kill spell or a fetch
Necropolis Fiend tapped the keg Turn 4?
ENOUGH OF MY RANTING HERES THE DECK
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Necropolis Fiend
Spells (instants):
2 Dig Through Time
2 Empty the Pits
4 Murderous Cut
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Island
4 Opulent Palace
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Malady
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bile Blight
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Stain the Mind
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Silence the Believers
2 Dead Drop
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG
LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema Kappa GBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF G B
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER U B
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE G W
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? U R
-Commander-
UBGMill, Sidisi, and Other ShenanigansGBU
WUBRGShingeki no TazriGRBUW
Thanks i really appreciate it! I love BUG. I tinkered with so many different Lists for the color combination from BUG walkers, Midrange **the obvious type Courser, elvish mystic, sylvan, HAIL HYDRA, and Big Daddy but it was just lacking the gas Xenagos the Reveler can create. Then I saw Brad Nelson's List from Somerset printed it out play-tested it, brainstormed and came to the conclusion that less is more. A lot of BUG lists look like they spread themselves too far IMO e.g. The more cogs in the machine, the more room for error.
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG
LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema Kappa GBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF G B
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER U B
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE G W
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? U R
Seems like a different deck you're building frankly. Strength from the Fallen in particular seems to run counter to a delve style deck.
BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]Slivers (Overlord as general)BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]
BMono Black (Xiahou Dun as general)B
You don't have issues with 4x murderous cuts 2xdig through time and 2xempty the pits? Seems like a lot of delve and you took out some mill through commune with the gods. I understand the cut of the whips with only one good target, but the life link is not irrelevant.
Your deck looks like a similar strategy as Brad Nelsons deck which did do pretty well. But it definitely seems like you have too much delve.
As I have been working on this, I've decided that we are sitting between three different dredge decks.
The first is Sultai midrange dredge with hornet queens and sidisi with whips.
The second is the Sultai delve control option with courser, dig through times and more kill spells.
The third is a Sultai aggro dredge deck with more nighthowlers, nemesis or mortals, and sagu maulers
And the fourth is Abzan midrange dredge running siege rhinos and maybe some Ashen riders.
I am stuck between all 4 of them as they all are pretty damn good. I just don't know what the best way to use the graveyard is.
There are some obviously very different strategies that are viable and even mixtures of them could work as well. The goal right now is to find out which type of deck: aggro, midrange, midrange/control, is best suited for the future meta.
Right now I am leaning towards the sultai dredge midrange as the strongest overall.
1 Ashen Rider
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Hornet Queen
2 Necropolis Fiend
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Nyx Weaver
//Lands (24)
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Empty the Pits
4 Murderous Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Necropolis Fiend
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Resolute Archangel
2 Banishing Light
1 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Thoughtseize
Notice that, much like I was proposing, it runs no Coursers
Hornet queen is an absurd Whip target, similar if not better in some ways to the late Shadowborn Demon, slowing down the board and giving us some excellent Nighthowler targets. The sideboard creatures seem pretty sweet too.
I feel like Rakshasa Deathdealer would be a natural upgrade for both versions. It's an excellent early play that can attack into most of the small creatures in this format, especially T3+ when you can support it with mana. And if it eats removal, that's ok too, it's not paramount to our strategy. It seems like everyone is running 4-6 pieces of removal, which plays right into our Bestow + Whip strategies.
The thing about Empty the Pits is that you either use it as a finisher or it ends up not doing enough, especially when you run cards that you want to keep in the yard. Cut, Fiend and even Treasure Cruise can waltz around unnecessary yard fodder but Empty is way too expensive to not want to go all in if you get to cast it. In that sense it feels like a skill intensive card but there might be matchups where you can blindly exile everything and make 8-10 zombies easy and take over by sheer numbers against any deck that taps out to play a few, big threats.
I'm really excited about this archetype, it seems like we can afford to run singletons especially in the side which opens up to a toolbox strategy. The only card I wish was Sultai is Siege Rhino, it reminds me of Thragtusk Junk Reanimator.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG
LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema Kappa GBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF G B
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER U B
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE G W
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? U R
Brian DeMars talks about this in his SCG Article from yesterday (link), but long story short it's because of the UU in the cost. An interesting point he brings up is running Cruise over Murderous Cut and just have 4x Hero's Downfall for Elspeth and such... Which I am taking and running with!
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Good point. Mis-play on mine and opponents end.
The signature is not a serious statement, but rather something funny I saw on the forum. For the record, just because the card comes into play tapped does not make it unplayable. Its just funny sig.
I can kind of see the UU being a problem, but Demars says, "However, the issue is that Downfall is so much better than Murderous Cut with the flexibility it offers" Well hero's downfall is great, but having Heros downfall AND murderous cut seems better to me, and in a TRI color deck UU shouldn't be a problem. Just to make a point wouldn't the BB in heros downfall be just as restricting as UU? I much would rather dig, for the 2 cards off the top 7 of my deck, rather than net 3 cards and lose most of my Delve resources. Demars also states, "...Whereas "Ancestral Recall" is an irreplaceable effect." Well IMO we do not need an pseudo Ancestral recall in this deck, we need a pseudo tutor to get to the 8 kill spells or a late game threat: Pits or Sphinx or NecroFiend.
** Note I have been play testing Liliana Vess **
Well the 4 heros downfall take care of elspeth; we need to kill more things than just her.
Thoughts?
Current Cockatrice Username: jayauriemma01
Standard:SULTAI DELVELICIOUS BUG
LINK TO DECK LIST
EDH: Oozema Kappa GBU
Krenko's Annoying Mob R
NATH, THE ROCK OF GOODSTUFF G B
WYDWEN, SWORDMASTER U B
KARAMETRA'S LANDVATAGE G W
IZZET NIV MIZZET COMBO? U R
I'll be sticking with Treasure Cruise + Hero's Downfall for the time being, but there's still plenty of room for improvement. I do miss Murderous Cut, but HD in the mainboard has shored up a lot of holes, as well as opened the door for Treasure Cruise. Cutting to 2 Nighthowlers has been fantastic as well. The first one I draw is almost never worth playing, as you need a few turns to fuel the graveyard. Replacing the other 2 with Herald of Torment is a smart move.
At this point, I'm more or less on Demar's list with minor changes, including +1 land, -1 Whip of Erebos, and significant changes to the sideboard. I would like to work some number of Rakshasa Deathdealer into the main (probably 2), and potentially a 3rd in the board.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Stain the mind! I choose you! Rabblemaster. *3 rabblemasters exiled*
Next turn
Exile nyx. Return Stain the mind to hand. Convoke, STAIN THE MIND! Sarkan! *2 sarkans exiled*
Scoop.
Rabble Red: nice durdle, take 12 from the board state you were ignoring.