Those of you cutting cornucopia/helix - are you typically winning with two (non-twinflame) dudes out, or with one?
I've been finding myself usually with around two mana dorks out when I combo, more often more than less, however, even with just one, if you can find a second ascendancy or a twinflame you can combo, so it doesn't really seem to make a difference...
Are you guys seeing any friction between ki or commune and helix? Seems you would lose helix quite a bit.
I've posted a thread on reddit that attempts to fix the inconsistencies with the deckbuilding in regards to helix and spells in general vs enchantments. Basically I argue that Eidolon of blossoms is the card draw, extra mana dork (read the thread) and bridge for great storms that the deck needs.
Now the reason why I like this build is not a ALOT of mana dorks. Rattleclaw is cut down to 2 because it can only produce 3 colors. when the other 2 can do all 5.
Now, This was taken from the OP post. But in my opinion Twin flame will not always get there (unless you retraction helix twice to clear your opp's Blockers) So I but in a burning anger just in case. So then they can't be like "well I will take that! HAHA" Well I have a extra win con. I truly don't understand the evanescent intellect. It seems like WAAAAY to much work to pull it off. because now you have to have 3 dorks in play to net mana. and that seems questionable to me when with 2 dorks I can kill. I can twin flame for a slow-gro army and kill. But the Intellect seems like you are adding ANOTHER condition to win with way to much work.
I like this land base alot actually. I never seem to be lacking colors. I don't care about my life total unless I kill the opp. so untill it is like it is a race for them not to Die.
Alter of the Brood I have been wanting to put the card in. I am thinking of having 1 in the board to swap out if it is a control deck. since they can wrath me and keep going so the mill plan seems fine there.
Stubborn Denial. I like it if you have Jeskai out, You can grow the team in response and get the Ferocious trigger.
Crater's Claws Again another Wincon to throw in just incase.
Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
Is anyone running clever impersonator? Seems like it could be a decent singleton, as it can copy whatever redundancy you are lacking (second dork or second ascendancy). Might be too costly though
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Just dug deep, looked at every card in Standard...Sign in Blood. The difference between 2 and 3 mana (Sign vs Divination) is huge and cannot be understated for this deck. We don't really care about our life total when we are comboing off as long as it isn't zero. The BB presents a bit of a challenge, but Caryatids and Followers (if we switch a few of our Temples to UB or RB) can handle that.
Just dug deep, looked at every card in Standard...Sign in Blood. The difference between 2 and 3 mana (Sign vs Divination) is huge and cannot be understated for this deck. We don't really care about our life total when we are comboing off as long as it isn't zero. The BB presents a bit of a challenge, but Caryatids and Followers (if we switch a few of our Temples to UB or RB) can handle that.
I thought about Sign in Blood too, but against aggro decks the loss of life of that + all the painlands would be a huge problem. We don't always go off on turn 4 or 5, sometimes it's 6 or even 7.
what are you guys cutting from your maindeck when you bring in your board cards? the risk of diluting the combo is making me tear my hair out when it comes to sideboarding
How do you beat Dissipate on Ascendancy pre-board? Post-board, seems like blue decks still destroy you when they bring in Gainsay and Negate to beat Swan Song. But I guess them's the breaks with combo. Might as well optimize the mainboard to crush aggro.
Are you guys seeing any friction between ki or commune and helix? Seems you would lose helix quite a bit.
I've posted a thread on reddit that attempts to fix the inconsistencies with the deckbuilding in regards to helix and spells in general vs enchantments. Basically I argue that Eidolon of blossoms is the card draw, extra mana dork (read the thread) and bridge for great storms that the deck needs.
I am running 3 copies of helix in my list atm and have rarely milled all 3 of them while digging with Commune/KI. As long as there is one somewhere in the deck you can loop easily. Without a helix, simply churning through the deck and saving a twinflame to swing with a huge mana dork is still a win most of the time. There is a danger that you mill all of your win conditions, but it is unlikely enough I am not particularily worried.
The Eidollon list doesn't have the ability to support Dig Through Time which is the card that makes the deck as fast as it can be. Cutting it for a four drop significantly slows the deck down for what I view as an inferior card advantage engine than the Commune+Ki+DTT package.
How do you beat Dissipate on Ascendancy pre-board? Post-board, seems like blue decks still destroy you when they bring in Gainsay and Negate to beat Swan Song. But I guess them's the breaks with combo. Might as well optimize the mainboard to crush aggro.
The deck is weak to blue decks with a large coutnerspell package, but I don't think they will make up a signficant portion of the meta. If that changes the deck will need to be altered greatly in order to compete.
How do you beat Dissipate on Ascendancy pre-board? Post-board, seems like blue decks still destroy you when they bring in Gainsay and Negate to beat Swan Song. But I guess them's the breaks with combo. Might as well optimize the mainboard to crush aggro.
While I've yet to try the list against other actual decks, nor do I have much in the ways of experience in standard, it does seem like, at least in the early stages of the meta, we may be able to catch them off guard if we can manage to not reveal ascendancy until we combo off. Just playing mana dorks may push them to leave less counterspells up, in which case we can probably just push through.
Game 2 we just need to push and push i suppose, for obvious reasons, it is a pretty harsh matchup, but we can at least hope that the presence of tri colour support will push people into playing more spot removal than counters, main deck and sideboard. So we can potentially make a break that way.
How do you beat Dissipate on Ascendancy pre-board? Post-board, seems like blue decks still destroy you when they bring in Gainsay and Negate to beat Swan Song. But I guess them's the breaks with combo. Might as well optimize the mainboard to crush aggro.
While I've yet to try the list against other actual decks, nor do I have much in the ways of experience in standard, it does seem like, at least in the early stages of the meta, we may be able to catch them off guard if we can manage to not reveal ascendancy until we combo off. Just playing mana dorks may push them to leave less counterspells up, in which case we can probably just push through.
Game 2 we just need to push and push i suppose, for obvious reasons, it is a pretty harsh matchup, but we can at least hope that the presence of tri colour support will push people into playing more spot removal than counters, main deck and sideboard. So we can potentially make a break that way.
You can play around counters to some extent. Forcing them to counter an Ascendancy and playing another for instnace. Thankfully blue control decks are not the quickest decks to kill you. Tempo would be much worse. It's the old cat and mouse game of control v combo. Sometimes you win sometimes you don't.
How do you beat Dissipate on Ascendancy pre-board? Post-board, seems like blue decks still destroy you when they bring in Gainsay and Negate to beat Swan Song. But I guess them's the breaks with combo. Might as well optimize the mainboard to crush aggro.
While I've yet to try the list against other actual decks, nor do I have much in the ways of experience in standard, it does seem like, at least in the early stages of the meta, we may be able to catch them off guard if we can manage to not reveal ascendancy until we combo off. Just playing mana dorks may push them to leave less counterspells up, in which case we can probably just push through.
Game 2 we just need to push and push i suppose, for obvious reasons, it is a pretty harsh matchup, but we can at least hope that the presence of tri colour support will push people into playing more spot removal than counters, main deck and sideboard. So we can potentially make a break that way.
You can play around counters to some extent. Forcing them to counter an Ascendancy and playing another for instnace. Thankfully blue control decks are not the quickest decks to kill you. Tempo would be much worse. It's the old cat and mouse game of control v combo. Sometimes you win sometimes you don't.
Yeah, right now I'm working on optimizing a Spellheart Chimera/URx tempo deck and I just see that absolutely crushing linear combo like this, but I doubt many people are going to playing that sort of thing in the early meta. They're probably going to be durdling with cool midrange things like planeswalkers and Delve and enchantment-based control and fatties and all. Or playing straight aggro. And as long as you can stall aggro with Caryatid then you're probably in business.
Are you guys seeing any friction between ki or commune and helix? Seems you would lose helix quite a bit.
I've posted a thread on reddit that attempts to fix the inconsistencies with the deckbuilding in regards to helix and spells in general vs enchantments. Basically I argue that Eidolon of blossoms is the card draw, extra mana dork (read the thread) and bridge for great storms that the deck needs.
I am running 3 copies of helix in my list atm and have rarely milled all 3 of them while digging with Commune/KI. As long as there is one somewhere in the deck you can loop easily. Without a helix, simply churning through the deck and saving a twinflame to swing with a huge mana dork is still a win most of the time. There is a danger that you mill all of your win conditions, but it is unlikely enough I am not particularily worried.
The Eidollon list doesn't have the ability to support Dig Through Time which is the card that makes the deck as fast as it can be. Cutting it for a four drop significantly slows the deck down for what I view as an inferior card advantage engine than the Commune+Ki+DTT package.
The eidolon isn't there because it's the better card draw, although it often is. It's in there because it provides tons of value at every point during the game. I'm not sure how much testing you've done, but going off in the face of removal and countermagic is just impossible. Eidolon gives you the ability to just play magic and sculpt your hand until turn 6 or even later. It lets you tax their removal, 2 for one them, and even save a storm. I understand that 4 mana is a lot, but I would playtest a few games with it before knocking it.
As far as retraction helix goes, you said yourself that you can just churn through the deck without a retraction helix, so why wear the training wheels? Running all enchantments has meant that my KIs hit 3 cards VERY often, and that is the real key here. My deck is optimized to abuse the system that we are already running. We don't need dig through time or treasure cruise. They're great, but in a much different version than I advocate.
This deck has really caught my eye. I've been trying to build a deck that does something similar with other cards, but this seems so much more stable. I will brew a list up soon.
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EDH UThada Adel AcquisitorU GB Savara, Queen of the Golgori BG GR Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG
Anyone knows how likely it is (from past experience) that Helix or other part of the combo get banned in Standard ? There are some serious wins on T2 or T3 with it, and I just feel it is going to eventually break the format...
Honestly? No. We're more likely to see Jeskai Ascendency banned in older formats if decks like Sam Black's list suddenly become dominant. In Standard? No... as much as we all want this to be a great deck, it's really too easy to disrupt. The more popular it becomes, the more people will be able to hate it out. We'll see tonight's FNM reports and this weekend's SCG results to see if anyone can make it work though.
You mentioned cutting to 21 lands. Thats a big jump. Was that a typo? What else would tou put in?
I'm not entirely sold on that move as of yet. I'm still testing with both versions. You only really NEED two lands, so you can cast mana dorks. Ideally you'll have 3-4 lands and never draw another. I would add the fourth enchantment cantrip (Fate Fortold in my list, Nylea's Presence in others n etc) to make digging more effective as well as to increase the rate you are digging.
Are you guys seeing any friction between ki or commune and helix? Seems you would lose helix quite a bit.
I've posted a thread on reddit that attempts to fix the inconsistencies with the deckbuilding in regards to helix and spells in general vs enchantments. Basically I argue that Eidolon of blossoms is the card draw, extra mana dork (read the thread) and bridge for great storms that the deck needs.
I am running 3 copies of helix in my list atm and have rarely milled all 3 of them while digging with Commune/KI. As long as there is one somewhere in the deck you can loop easily. Without a helix, simply churning through the deck and saving a twinflame to swing with a huge mana dork is still a win most of the time. There is a danger that you mill all of your win conditions, but it is unlikely enough I am not particularily worried.
The Eidollon list doesn't have the ability to support Dig Through Time which is the card that makes the deck as fast as it can be. Cutting it for a four drop significantly slows the deck down for what I view as an inferior card advantage engine than the Commune+Ki+DTT package.
The eidolon isn't there because it's the better card draw, although it often is. It's in there because it provides tons of value at every point during the game. I'm not sure how much testing you've done, but going off in the face of removal and countermagic is just impossible. Eidolon gives you the ability to just play magic and sculpt your hand until turn 6 or even later. It lets you tax their removal, 2 for one them, and even save a storm. I understand that 4 mana is a lot, but I would playtest a few games with it before knocking it.
As far as retraction helix goes, you said yourself that you can just churn through the deck without a retraction helix, so why wear the training wheels? Running all enchantments has meant that my KIs hit 3 cards VERY often, and that is the real key here. My deck is optimized to abuse the system that we are already running. We don't need dig through time or treasure cruise. They're great, but in a much different version than I advocate.
We are simply building different decks. Your version is a midrange-esque shell where mine would be the "aggro" variant. DTT finds missing pieces and is of the mentality that selection>raw card advantage. I simply do not think what we are doing outside of the combo is good enough to compete in the meta. Therefore I am trying to speed up what we are actually doing as much as possible.
I have around two dozen playtest games down with the deck so far, against removal and coutnerspells and not. I don't find it difficult to play around.
Idea is to bounce the same aura over and over again with helix or cavalry (need one aura in hand and one on field for latter). Then Messenger's Speed and/or Aqueous Form makes sure your pumped guy(s) get through. Also even if you can't combo off, you can still cast multiple auras in the same turn to pump guys through Ascendancy (and/or prowess for the Swiftspear) for big hits.
This is mainly for casual play, but wonder if this general approach could be made somewhat competitive... thoughts/ideas???
I like that the auras are much more utilitarian here (rays can be used defensively at first then later as combo piece and other two get you through as mentioned). Thought about other defensive auras like Singing Bell Strike or Pin to the Earth but 2cmc makes them much harder to combo with. Similarly, Karametra's Favor can be used as combo piece or to make a non-dork into a mana dork, but seems too costly at 2cmc.
Could also maybe add other prowess guys or did like the idea mentioned before of Anthousa, Setessan Hero as a 1- or 2-of since she can be both a helix target and a source of multiple mana dorks...
Obviously just throwing somewhat random ideas out there, but thought it might get someone thinking...
This is the list I played tonight to a 4-1 match record. I originally had 21 lands and a 13th donk in Voyaging Satyr, but decided an additional scry land would help with card selection a bit more. It's entirely possible the triland should be another scry. The sideboard is poached from the OP, but I feel that Negate deserves serious consideration, and a friend brought up Aegis of the Gods as a possible card against thoughtseize decks as well as decks likely to bring in Stain the Mind (which will be a real card if this deck becomes popular). I did not run into any mono r or mono b aggro, so circle of flame didn't see any action, but I have no doubt it is very good in those matchups. Swan Song is an all star, and restock was clutch as well. I comboed off turn 4-5 every game I won, even after sideboard and through hate. Even the ones I lost (one to a severe misplay because I did not realize Kiora's Follower untapped a PERMANENT not just a land... to make me saltier it was for the match) I felt like there were still chances to win. I was very surprised at how resilient the deck was, and I won many games with one mana donk in play where my opponents tapped out (turn 3/4/5) thinking I would not be able to go off.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Evanescent Intellect, but it offers a cheap way to go off with only caryatids - this may be a cop out excuse however. The cornucopia is a weaker card but it allows for a potential turn 3 win as well as giving you an option later on to dig with one dude and retraction helix until you find more gas. Playing 4 helix is absolutely the right number, especially since you can use it with kiora's followers to bounce multiple opposing permanents if you need to stall for another turn or two. I am torn between the Nylea's Presence and playing a 2 of Taigam's Scheming, especially since the latter fuels the yard for dig through time and offers card selection.
Overall, deck is fun to play, surprisingly resilient, and very powerful. I look forward to refining this deck further and seeing where it can go.
The deck's color fixing is generally more than good enough. Fate foretold can generally help you block and dig with an extra dude.
I also want to cut one or two Taigam's scheming, but it's hard to find any other way to fuel Dig Through Time. Maybe I'm not blocking enough. To be sure, the Dig Through Times kind of want to see fetchlands instead of scrylands, but with no shufflers, I feel like the DTTs can get deeper into the deck w/ scrys.
*(DTT is an instant, so you can float mana, block, and delve the blocker. With no commune or cards in graveyard, turn 2 dude, turn 3 Morph mystic, turn 4 untapped land allows you to block w/ moprh mystic, unmorph(3), tap(4), and tap your remaining lands and catalyd (7), let it die, then DTT. While digging, you'll need to find combo pieces for the next turn off of 5 mana and 1 dude). I have no idea whether this line of play is any good.)
I've been experimenting with running a Courser of Kruphix or an Eidolon. I don't anticipate the deck breaking past Tier 1.5 until either more 1cmc cantrips are printed or some better redundancy for Asc is printed, but it's a very strong tier 1.5.
I've also experimented with cutting down to 1 cornucopia. Cornucopia is nice because it allows the deck to arbitrarily dig off of 1 guy + helix (and build into most other full kills), but it's also nice because it allows the deck to generate arbitrary mana without drawing past the end of the deck.
***Evanescent Intellect allows the deck to also generate arbitrary mana if it mills its only cornucopia. If you've built into 1 Asc - 2 dudes (/ 1 dude twinflame) - helix - mantle, you are arbitrary-draw - mana neutral. One additional mantle nets you 1 mana. So long as your two dudes are not both Mystics (or so long as you have a spare white source), you can draw into and play a second Asc. This setup - 2asc - 2 dudes - helix - EI, nets you 2 mana per cycle: arbitrary - mana, draw neutral.
Technically, you can do this with Burning Anger as well so long as you can play the third and fourth Asc (so long as you didn't mill a cornucopia, an Asc, and the second Twinflame with your Communes or Ascendency digs). You can generate mana-neutral, draw-netural cycles with 3 Asc and burning anger.
I appreciate all testing input. It's tough to test on mws, on account of all the ********s. What do you generally side out?
I like cornucopia since you can potentially turn 3 with helix digging to a second + a twinflame. Fate foretold is interesting but I really have losing a dude to anything but a removal spell. I understand it happens sometimes, and potentially drawing 2 is powerful, but I'd consider the 4th dig through time first. EI might become a sideboard card IMO, because its the weakest card in my experience. I'm gonna do a bit more testing this week and try to come up with some numbers and a stronger sideboard.
The scry lands do so much for the deck I'll probably play one over the triland or a shivan reef.
I'm at work right now so I don't have time to put up how I side boarded, but I'll post it later probably on my next break.
@gahouf
As far as comboing with twin flame, since you're comboing off and drawing your deck and making infinite mana, you play all your other donks and twin flame them with strive, then helix something that doesn't cycle, like an ascendancy, and generate infinite pumps for your fresh twinflamed dudes.
@franky - You can combo turn 3 with just 1 cornucopia. Turn 2 catalyd, turn 3 you have 4 mana available for asc with the third land. Your first Cornucopia should net you the 5th mana to play twinflame. The second cornucopia just makes turn 3 kills about twice as likely.
A 13th land that comes into play untapped feels marginally better for getting a consistent turn 2 dude.
I've been finding myself usually with around two mana dorks out when I combo, more often more than less, however, even with just one, if you can find a second ascendancy or a twinflame you can combo, so it doesn't really seem to make a difference...
I've posted a thread on reddit that attempts to fix the inconsistencies with the deckbuilding in regards to helix and spells in general vs enchantments. Basically I argue that Eidolon of blossoms is the card draw, extra mana dork (read the thread) and bridge for great storms that the deck needs.
http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/2hemnz/standard_updates_and_refinements_for_jeskai/ Here's a link to the thread.
4x Sylvan caryatid
4x Kiora's Follower
2x Rattleclaw mystic
Now the reason why I like this build is not a ALOT of mana dorks. Rattleclaw is cut down to 2 because it can only produce 3 colors. when the other 2 can do all 5.
3 Divination
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Dragon Mantel
4 Retraction Helix
4 Dig through Time
4 Taigam's Scheming
4 Defiant strike
1 Burning Anger
Now, This was taken from the OP post. But in my opinion Twin flame will not always get there (unless you retraction helix twice to clear your opp's Blockers) So I but in a burning anger just in case. So then they can't be like "well I will take that! HAHA" Well I have a extra win con. I truly don't understand the evanescent intellect. It seems like WAAAAY to much work to pull it off. because now you have to have 3 dorks in play to net mana. and that seems questionable to me when with 2 dorks I can kill. I can twin flame for a slow-gro army and kill. But the Intellect seems like you are adding ANOTHER condition to win with way to much work.
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
I like this land base alot actually. I never seem to be lacking colors. I don't care about my life total unless I kill the opp. so untill it is like it is a race for them not to Die.
4x Circle of Flame
1x Crater's Claws
1x Restock
4x Swan Song
4x Stubborn Denial
1x Alter of the Brood
Alter of the Brood I have been wanting to put the card in. I am thinking of having 1 in the board to swap out if it is a control deck. since they can wrath me and keep going so the mill plan seems fine there.
Stubborn Denial. I like it if you have Jeskai out, You can grow the team in response and get the Ferocious trigger.
Crater's Claws Again another Wincon to throw in just incase.
Circle of Flames I love this card alooot actually. I wish It was like Lightmine Field but we all can dream.
Restock It's Restock. what else you want?
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I thought about Sign in Blood too, but against aggro decks the loss of life of that + all the painlands would be a huge problem. We don't always go off on turn 4 or 5, sometimes it's 6 or even 7.
Taking these questions on seperately.
I am running 3 copies of helix in my list atm and have rarely milled all 3 of them while digging with Commune/KI. As long as there is one somewhere in the deck you can loop easily. Without a helix, simply churning through the deck and saving a twinflame to swing with a huge mana dork is still a win most of the time. There is a danger that you mill all of your win conditions, but it is unlikely enough I am not particularily worried.
The Eidollon list doesn't have the ability to support Dig Through Time which is the card that makes the deck as fast as it can be. Cutting it for a four drop significantly slows the deck down for what I view as an inferior card advantage engine than the Commune+Ki+DTT package.
The deck is weak to blue decks with a large coutnerspell package, but I don't think they will make up a signficant portion of the meta. If that changes the deck will need to be altered greatly in order to compete.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
While I've yet to try the list against other actual decks, nor do I have much in the ways of experience in standard, it does seem like, at least in the early stages of the meta, we may be able to catch them off guard if we can manage to not reveal ascendancy until we combo off. Just playing mana dorks may push them to leave less counterspells up, in which case we can probably just push through.
Game 2 we just need to push and push i suppose, for obvious reasons, it is a pretty harsh matchup, but we can at least hope that the presence of tri colour support will push people into playing more spot removal than counters, main deck and sideboard. So we can potentially make a break that way.
You can play around counters to some extent. Forcing them to counter an Ascendancy and playing another for instnace. Thankfully blue control decks are not the quickest decks to kill you. Tempo would be much worse. It's the old cat and mouse game of control v combo. Sometimes you win sometimes you don't.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Yeah, right now I'm working on optimizing a Spellheart Chimera/URx tempo deck and I just see that absolutely crushing linear combo like this, but I doubt many people are going to playing that sort of thing in the early meta. They're probably going to be durdling with cool midrange things like planeswalkers and Delve and enchantment-based control and fatties and all. Or playing straight aggro. And as long as you can stall aggro with Caryatid then you're probably in business.
You mentioned cutting to 21 lands. Thats a big jump. Was that a typo? What else would tou put in?
The eidolon isn't there because it's the better card draw, although it often is. It's in there because it provides tons of value at every point during the game. I'm not sure how much testing you've done, but going off in the face of removal and countermagic is just impossible. Eidolon gives you the ability to just play magic and sculpt your hand until turn 6 or even later. It lets you tax their removal, 2 for one them, and even save a storm. I understand that 4 mana is a lot, but I would playtest a few games with it before knocking it.
As far as retraction helix goes, you said yourself that you can just churn through the deck without a retraction helix, so why wear the training wheels? Running all enchantments has meant that my KIs hit 3 cards VERY often, and that is the real key here. My deck is optimized to abuse the system that we are already running. We don't need dig through time or treasure cruise. They're great, but in a much different version than I advocate.
UThada Adel AcquisitorU
GB Savara, Queen of the Golgori BG
GR Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG
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I'm not entirely sold on that move as of yet. I'm still testing with both versions. You only really NEED two lands, so you can cast mana dorks. Ideally you'll have 3-4 lands and never draw another. I would add the fourth enchantment cantrip (Fate Fortold in my list, Nylea's Presence in others n etc) to make digging more effective as well as to increase the rate you are digging.
We are simply building different decks. Your version is a midrange-esque shell where mine would be the "aggro" variant. DTT finds missing pieces and is of the mentality that selection>raw card advantage. I simply do not think what we are doing outside of the combo is good enough to compete in the meta. Therefore I am trying to speed up what we are actually doing as much as possible.
I have around two dozen playtest games down with the deck so far, against removal and coutnerspells and not. I don't find it difficult to play around.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
I was curious if anyone has looked at a cheap NON-cantripping auras build... I was thinking something like this:
1x Forest
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Island
4x Mana Confluence
4x Mystic Monastery
4x Shivan Reef
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Kiora's Follower
3x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Triton Cavalry
Enchantment (16)
4x Aqueous Form
4x Jeskai Ascendancy
4x Messenger's Speed
4x Oppressive Rays
4x Retraction Helix
Sorcery (4)
4x Commune with the Gods
Idea is to bounce the same aura over and over again with helix or cavalry (need one aura in hand and one on field for latter). Then Messenger's Speed and/or Aqueous Form makes sure your pumped guy(s) get through. Also even if you can't combo off, you can still cast multiple auras in the same turn to pump guys through Ascendancy (and/or prowess for the Swiftspear) for big hits.
This is mainly for casual play, but wonder if this general approach could be made somewhat competitive... thoughts/ideas???
I like that the auras are much more utilitarian here (rays can be used defensively at first then later as combo piece and other two get you through as mentioned). Thought about other defensive auras like Singing Bell Strike or Pin to the Earth but 2cmc makes them much harder to combo with. Similarly, Karametra's Favor can be used as combo piece or to make a non-dork into a mana dork, but seems too costly at 2cmc.
Could also maybe add other prowess guys or did like the idea mentioned before of Anthousa, Setessan Hero as a 1- or 2-of since she can be both a helix target and a source of multiple mana dorks...
Obviously just throwing somewhat random ideas out there, but thought it might get someone thinking...
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Battlefield Forge
4x Mana Confluence
1x Frontier Bivouac
3x Temple of Mystery
3x Temple of Plenty
2x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
Dudes (12)
4x Kiora's Follower
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Retraction Helix
4x Commune with the Gods
4x Dragon Mantle
2x Nylea's Presence
3x Dig Through Time
4x Jeskai Ascendancy
2x Twinflame
1x Evanescent Intellect
2x Astral Cornucopia
4x Swan Song
4x Crippling Chill
4x Circle of Flame
2x God's Willing
1x Restock
This is the list I played tonight to a 4-1 match record. I originally had 21 lands and a 13th donk in Voyaging Satyr, but decided an additional scry land would help with card selection a bit more. It's entirely possible the triland should be another scry. The sideboard is poached from the OP, but I feel that Negate deserves serious consideration, and a friend brought up Aegis of the Gods as a possible card against thoughtseize decks as well as decks likely to bring in Stain the Mind (which will be a real card if this deck becomes popular). I did not run into any mono r or mono b aggro, so circle of flame didn't see any action, but I have no doubt it is very good in those matchups. Swan Song is an all star, and restock was clutch as well. I comboed off turn 4-5 every game I won, even after sideboard and through hate. Even the ones I lost (one to a severe misplay because I did not realize Kiora's Follower untapped a PERMANENT not just a land... to make me saltier it was for the match) I felt like there were still chances to win. I was very surprised at how resilient the deck was, and I won many games with one mana donk in play where my opponents tapped out (turn 3/4/5) thinking I would not be able to go off.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Evanescent Intellect, but it offers a cheap way to go off with only caryatids - this may be a cop out excuse however. The cornucopia is a weaker card but it allows for a potential turn 3 win as well as giving you an option later on to dig with one dude and retraction helix until you find more gas. Playing 4 helix is absolutely the right number, especially since you can use it with kiora's followers to bounce multiple opposing permanents if you need to stall for another turn or two. I am torn between the Nylea's Presence and playing a 2 of Taigam's Scheming, especially since the latter fuels the yard for dig through time and offers card selection.
Overall, deck is fun to play, surprisingly resilient, and very powerful. I look forward to refining this deck further and seeing where it can go.
-1 Triland, +1 Shivan Reef.
-X Nylea's Presence, +X Fate Foretold
The deck's color fixing is generally more than good enough. Fate foretold can generally help you block and dig with an extra dude.
I also want to cut one or two Taigam's scheming, but it's hard to find any other way to fuel Dig Through Time. Maybe I'm not blocking enough. To be sure, the Dig Through Times kind of want to see fetchlands instead of scrylands, but with no shufflers, I feel like the DTTs can get deeper into the deck w/ scrys.
*(DTT is an instant, so you can float mana, block, and delve the blocker. With no commune or cards in graveyard, turn 2 dude, turn 3 Morph mystic, turn 4 untapped land allows you to block w/ moprh mystic, unmorph(3), tap(4), and tap your remaining lands and catalyd (7), let it die, then DTT. While digging, you'll need to find combo pieces for the next turn off of 5 mana and 1 dude). I have no idea whether this line of play is any good.)
I've been experimenting with running a Courser of Kruphix or an Eidolon. I don't anticipate the deck breaking past Tier 1.5 until either more 1cmc cantrips are printed or some better redundancy for Asc is printed, but it's a very strong tier 1.5.
I've also experimented with cutting down to 1 cornucopia. Cornucopia is nice because it allows the deck to arbitrarily dig off of 1 guy + helix (and build into most other full kills), but it's also nice because it allows the deck to generate arbitrary mana without drawing past the end of the deck.
***Evanescent Intellect allows the deck to also generate arbitrary mana if it mills its only cornucopia. If you've built into 1 Asc - 2 dudes (/ 1 dude twinflame) - helix - mantle, you are arbitrary-draw - mana neutral. One additional mantle nets you 1 mana. So long as your two dudes are not both Mystics (or so long as you have a spare white source), you can draw into and play a second Asc. This setup - 2asc - 2 dudes - helix - EI, nets you 2 mana per cycle: arbitrary - mana, draw neutral.
Technically, you can do this with Burning Anger as well so long as you can play the third and fourth Asc (so long as you didn't mill a cornucopia, an Asc, and the second Twinflame with your Communes or Ascendency digs). You can generate mana-neutral, draw-netural cycles with 3 Asc and burning anger.
I appreciate all testing input. It's tough to test on mws, on account of all the ********s. What do you generally side out?
Modern SplinterTwin
The scry lands do so much for the deck I'll probably play one over the triland or a shivan reef.
I'm at work right now so I don't have time to put up how I side boarded, but I'll post it later probably on my next break.
@gahouf
As far as comboing with twin flame, since you're comboing off and drawing your deck and making infinite mana, you play all your other donks and twin flame them with strive, then helix something that doesn't cycle, like an ascendancy, and generate infinite pumps for your fresh twinflamed dudes.
A 13th land that comes into play untapped feels marginally better for getting a consistent turn 2 dude.
Modern SplinterTwin