Once you have ascendency in play, intellect becomes a loot for free due to the untap, once you have a second ascendancy in play you start generating mana. Yes, to go off with the mill you need to generate infinite mana but it becomes elementary at a certain point. Twin flame can potentially help you go off as well as offering a way to attack for lethal, and I'm not trying to say take it out entirely, but having a wincon that you can find with commune that becomes a free dig with our combo card that can also go off with caryatids only (not vulnerable to something like the the XU tap x creatures spell) is something worth taking a hard look at.
[quote from="FubsyGamr »
You have 4 fetchlands but only 2 fetchable sources?[/quote]
Yup, There is no reason to have any more. They are basically there to make sure you have a green source turn 1-3, then turn 4 you're usually going off and any other fetches you draw will be dumped into the gy. The plains honestly should be another forest, because I've never once needed to fetch for a W source.
So then the question is what to do transform to? Goblin Rabblemaster style agro (they get rid of their removal post SB)? Sarkhan/Elspeth style control (They won't expect the long game)? Jeskai Burn (They may bring in fast threats)? Narset (free Dig Through Time)?
It seems unlikely that your opponent would side out spot removal against a deck that absolutely requires crappy mana dorks to win the game. Big threats powered out early like Elspeth or Narset could be pretty effective though.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
It is my belief that Dig Through Time is better in this deck than Treasure Cruise but I might be wrong. I'm changing one Dig to a Cruise in order to test, but here's my theorycraft reasoning:
The advantage to Cruise over Dig is that it costs U instead of UU, making it mana neutral with 1 dork in play during the combo. But 2 out of 7 is a much better effect than draw 3. It virtually guarantees another 1 or 0cc spell to keep going, making up for the extra U required.
So then the question is what to do transform to? Goblin Rabblemaster style agro (they get rid of their removal post SB)? Sarkhan/Elspeth style control (They won't expect the long game)? Jeskai Burn (They may bring in fast threats)? Narset (free Dig Through Time)?
It seems unlikely that your opponent would side out spot removal against a deck that absolutely requires crappy mana dorks to win the game. Big threats powered out early like Elspeth or Narset could be pretty effective though.
Great point. I agree though, it would be awesome to power out something disgusting.
Hi guys,
I'm a bit of a newer player and I've been having a lot of fun with this deck and its variants.
I was wondering if I could get a bit of clarification on the order that this combo triggers out. If you have multiple ascendancies in play, do they trigger separately?
Hi guys,
I'm a bit of a newer player and I've been having a lot of fun with this deck and its variants.
I was wondering if I could get a bit of clarification on the order that this combo triggers out. If you have multiple ascendancies in play, do they trigger separately?
Assume you play a cantrip spell with one ascension.
The two abilities of ascension will trigger, you choose the order they go on the stack. The one on top resolves first, so if you put the looting ability on top you will draw and discard, then the untap trigger resolves.
If you have 2 ascensions you get 4 triggers total, and you choose how they all go on the stack. Ideally you want to resolve the two looting triggers first. The first untap trigger resolves, you untap your mana dorks. In response to the second untap trigger still on stack you tap the dorks again for mana netting one mana for every dork you have out.
Assume you play a cantrip spell with one ascension.
The two abilities of ascension will trigger, you choose the order they go on the stack. The one on top resolves first, so if you put the looting ability on top you will draw and discard, then the untap trigger resolves.
If you have 2 ascensions you get 4 triggers total, and you choose how they all go on the stack. Ideally you want to resolve the two looting triggers first. The first untap trigger resolves, you untap your mana dorks. In response to the second untap trigger still on stack you tap the dorks again for mana netting one mana for every dork you have out.
Ah wow, holy ****. I didn't realize that the untap trigger went twice...That's downright insane. And I was combo'ing off pretty easy without that. damn..
I have kind of a dumb question, but is it possible to combo off with a single Sylvan Caryatid in play? Or are we required to have a 2nd mana dork?
I ask because in plenty of my games, I'm not able to get any dork besides Caryatid to survive the turn, with all of the Magma Spray/Lightning Strike/Stoke the Flames running around.
Say on turn 2 I play Caryatid, on turn 3 I play Kiora's Follower, who immediately gets Lightning Striked. In my hand I have the Ascendancy and 2-3 of our cantrips. Do I go for it? If so, how do I generate the infinite mana?
I have kind of a dumb question, but is it possible to combo off with a single Sylvan Caryatid in play? Or are we required to have a 2nd mana dork?
I ask because in plenty of my games, I'm not able to get any dork besides Caryatid to survive the turn, with all of the Magma Spray/Lightning Strike/Stoke the Flames running around.
Say on turn 2 I play Caryatid, on turn 3 I play Kiora's Follower, who immediately gets Lightning Striked. In my hand I have the Ascendancy and 2-3 of our cantrips. Do I go for it? If so, how do I generate the infinite mana?
Yes, you can go off with a single mana dork as long as you have two Jeskai Ascendancy out.
I have kind of a dumb question, but is it possible to combo off with a single Sylvan Caryatid in play? Or are we required to have a 2nd mana dork?
I ask because in plenty of my games, I'm not able to get any dork besides Caryatid to survive the turn, with all of the Magma Spray/Lightning Strike/Stoke the Flames running around.
Say on turn 2 I play Caryatid, on turn 3 I play Kiora's Follower, who immediately gets Lightning Striked. In my hand I have the Ascendancy and 2-3 of our cantrips. Do I go for it? If so, how do I generate the infinite mana?
Most decklists can't combo out with a single Sylvan Caryatid unless you have two Jeskai Ascendancy's in play or a Twinflame in hand.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
I have kind of a dumb question, but is it possible to combo off with a single Sylvan Caryatid in play? Or are we required to have a 2nd mana dork?
I ask because in plenty of my games, I'm not able to get any dork besides Caryatid to survive the turn, with all of the Magma Spray/Lightning Strike/Stoke the Flames running around.
Say on turn 2 I play Caryatid, on turn 3 I play Kiora's Follower, who immediately gets Lightning Striked. In my hand I have the Ascendancy and 2-3 of our cantrips. Do I go for it? If so, how do I generate the infinite mana?
Most decklists can't combo out with a single Sylvan Caryatid unless you have two Jeskai Ascendancy's in play or a Twinflame in hand.
and burning anger lol
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I've been viewing this thread for a wee bit and have become addicted to the deck! I love combo decks in general and this one feels like it has some real potential. Before giving my .02 on individual card choices or anything else I'll post the list I'm currently testing, all of it is stolen from the great minds in this thread so nothing revolutionary.
The manabase is one stolen from a few pages back. It is the 6 fetch variant and I have found it to be pretty strong. I like having only 4 lands that come in tapped and feel that it speeds up the deck by a turn (or at least half a turn).
3 Dig Through Time
I personally believe the strongest card available to enable the combo is Dig Through Time. Looking at seven cards and selecting two, at instant speed when necessary, is just the best thing you can do to find the pieces you need. I think the dig for 7 outweighs the raw card advantage lead that Treasure Cruise offers. You generally aren't trying to find more cards, just specific ones. The mana cost difference between U and UU occasionally is an issue, but mostly you are not using either card until turn 3-4 after you have resolved a Commune with the Gods or Kruphix's Insight. Taking in consideration how valuable I think DTT is for the deck the other card choices become much easier.
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Kruphix's Insight
With the limited room in the deck available to fit in more card sifting I want to fit as many of these cards into the 60 as possible. The reason being, not only do they find key pieces to the combo, they also fill the graveyard which is a premium ability considering how valuable DTT is. Using these cards to turn on DTT also limits the other cards you want in the deck. Largely you want as many enchantments as possible to gain value out of KI as well as guaranteeing that they always hit. This makes other card choices much easier.
1 Evanescent Intellect
Considering I am leaning quite heavily on the green sorcery dig cards to find the pieces I need, I like having an enchantment win condition. The decision then is between EI and Burning Anger. While both cards have various scenarios where they supersede the other, I generally like the spell which costs less. While the mana isn't an issue once you are in a full blown loop, there are times where you are casting non-creature spells and digging for either a Retraction Helix or Astral Cornucopia to reach an infinite loop. EI plays better in these situations than BA.
2 Twinflame
While I think it is quite amusing that TF can be used as a win-condition by copying arbitarily large Mystics and Followers to swing for lethal, I usually use TF as an additional mana-dork while going off. There is a large amount of removal in the meta, and I believe that will be true even after it settles into it's true form. Twinflame can act as Sylvan Caryatid 5 and 6 which helps significantly versus decks capable of just killing all of the non-hexproof creatures.
4 Dragon Mantle
2 Fate Foretold
I chose these cards as my cantrips simply because they are the best cantrips that are also enchantments. I prefer FF over Nylea's Presence as I generally haven't had many mana issues, but gaining a card out of an opposing removal spell is quite useful.
The rest of the deck isn't really negotiable.
I have up to four slots available for games 2-3 to slide cards in. My current order of first remove, to last is...
I am generally sliding in cards which ideally slow the opposition down by a turn or two, or remove enough interaction from them that I gain at least a turn or two. I feel like these cards, while great, contribute the least to the speed of the deck. The idea is to slow myself by a turn in order to slow them by a turn. I usually only remove 3 cards, but on occasional I will go for a full 4 card cut.
4 Swan Song
This card comes in against blue decks I believe to be running a large number of counters and low cmc removal. Also against B/x control decks running thoughtseize+despise+removal.
3 Arc Lightning
Only against weenie aggressive strategies where I can reliably kill two creatures.
2 Voyaging Satyr
1 Twinflame
I group these cards together because I have been siding them in together. They are for R/x ramp decks or R/B/x decks wehre I believe I will face a ton of removal but less likely to see thoguthseize and despise. I have more time to assemble the pieces I need, just want them to survive.
1 Burning Anger
If I believe a Cranial Extraction type ability is coming, or if they have some other way to prevent self-mill being a kill. I cannot think of any off the to of my head, but insurance isn't bad.
4 Crippling Chill
For G/x decks such as Green Devotion. They generally have a smaller number of attackers which are just very large. Locking down a Polukranos, World Eater or Arbor Colossus for two turns, while also cantripping is very valuable.
Now! Wonderful people, tell me where I'm simply wrong or horribly idiotic.
One alteration that has been working for me so far is a one-of Messenger's Speed in replacement for the stratus walk on the enchantment build. Sure it doesnt net you a card but it grants haste and trample to your dork--- to push through damage against a blocker or if you need to give a dude haste in case you cant find a twinflame mid combo. It also acts as Dragon Mantle no. 5 for the retraction helix combo, and still fetchable with Commune/Insight.
Hey Besjbo, I'm running your list from the OP at the moment, but did you test Tormenting Voice instead of Divination? The two mana kinda makes a huge difference, and when I'm trying to dig for the combo pieces there are quite a few cards I am thrilled to discard to fuel Dig through time.
when I have an ascendancy in play it is a bit worse since it makes the looting effect worse, but I think the setup turns are way more important than combo turns.
Sadly, due to workload I'm taking a hiatus from MTG for the time being, so you won't be seeing me around the thread much. I absolutely love all the thought and creativity that everyone has put into this deck, and seeing as it's taken on quite the life of its own someone active should take the helm, both for this discussion and for the eventual primer in the Competitive forum, since I'm reasonably certain this is good enough for Established at the very least. If you're interested in maintaining the primer, please PM me so I can credit you in the OP and link interested viewers to any new discussion or primer you create.
We've gone through countless lists, strategies and ideas and Jeskai Ascendancy isn't even Standard legal yet, so I can't wait to see what the community comes up with, and I'm very excited for this year's Standard, even if I won't be taking much of an active part in it. Shout outs to Ashk'rya for never running low on crazy new ideas to keep us on our toes, NinjatheNick, GenericKen and all you deckbuilders for some truly brilliant variants that may well prove themselves the strongest way to break Jeskai Ascendancy, and thanks to everyone here for helping make this pile of jank a real deck. Au revoir!
So, after a bit of testing, I've made some decisions of my own...
First of all, Cornucopia seems a bit weak, it doesn't really do a huge amount and we have to be fairly selective of what we include. Yes, it combos off with one mana dude and a helix, but we can fairly easily assemble two to go off with a dragon mantle anyway (or some variant of that) and overall, it seems better if we try and do it with something a bit more individually powerful.
Similarly to all that, I've also made my own decision to increase the number of helix's by 2, as i've been having some issues with fizzling, and this seems to be an excellent way to steal games, as well as act as a psuedo win condition, or even just a way to stall out a game (or bounce hate?)
Finally, I at least, have decided to run the full 4 digs, due to how easy it is to lower the cost drastically, and how efficient it is at finding ascendancy
Naturally, I'm still testing, and probably have done less than others, but I figured i'd share my own opinions anyway
Last night, I had a dream that I talked to Mark Rosewater about this deck. He told me that it should optimally be between 70 and 80 cards, and should focus on milling its whole library and then getting the combo pieces out of its graveyard. So...something to think about?
I agree with pretty much all of this. I cut both cornucopia and have gone up to 3 helix and 3 DTT. Cornucopia just doesn't do enough. I kept playing games where both of mine would up in the yard due to Commne and KI and just not caring. The list jsut feels smoother now. I'm also considering going to 21 lands.
Hi just thought i'd check this thread out, and I find this deck fascinating. Are there any videos of it in action? I'd like to get some idea on how hard it is to pilot.
Hi just thought i'd check this thread out, and I find this deck fascinating. Are there any videos of it in action? I'd like to get some idea on how hard it is to pilot.
Not particularily. You should goldfish a few dozen times in order to get the spell priorities right and to know what you can and can't do with X number of creatures and an ascendancy and etc but other than that it isn't too bad.
You have 4 fetchlands but only 2 fetchable sources?[/quote]
Yup, There is no reason to have any more. They are basically there to make sure you have a green source turn 1-3, then turn 4 you're usually going off and any other fetches you draw will be dumped into the gy. The plains honestly should be another forest, because I've never once needed to fetch for a W source.
Aetherspout
Also, the danger of revealing all three twinflames with communes.
Modern SplinterTwin
It seems unlikely that your opponent would side out spot removal against a deck that absolutely requires crappy mana dorks to win the game. Big threats powered out early like Elspeth or Narset could be pretty effective though.
because of that card, I do like having 1 Burning Anger in the SB of the Twinflame kill.
The advantage to Cruise over Dig is that it costs U instead of UU, making it mana neutral with 1 dork in play during the combo. But 2 out of 7 is a much better effect than draw 3. It virtually guarantees another 1 or 0cc spell to keep going, making up for the extra U required.
Great point. I agree though, it would be awesome to power out something disgusting.
I'm a bit of a newer player and I've been having a lot of fun with this deck and its variants.
I was wondering if I could get a bit of clarification on the order that this combo triggers out. If you have multiple ascendancies in play, do they trigger separately?
Assume you play a cantrip spell with one ascension.
The two abilities of ascension will trigger, you choose the order they go on the stack. The one on top resolves first, so if you put the looting ability on top you will draw and discard, then the untap trigger resolves.
If you have 2 ascensions you get 4 triggers total, and you choose how they all go on the stack. Ideally you want to resolve the two looting triggers first. The first untap trigger resolves, you untap your mana dorks. In response to the second untap trigger still on stack you tap the dorks again for mana netting one mana for every dork you have out.
Ah wow, holy ****. I didn't realize that the untap trigger went twice...That's downright insane. And I was combo'ing off pretty easy without that. damn..
Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.
I ask because in plenty of my games, I'm not able to get any dork besides Caryatid to survive the turn, with all of the Magma Spray/Lightning Strike/Stoke the Flames running around.
Say on turn 2 I play Caryatid, on turn 3 I play Kiora's Follower, who immediately gets Lightning Striked. In my hand I have the Ascendancy and 2-3 of our cantrips. Do I go for it? If so, how do I generate the infinite mana?
Yes, you can go off with a single mana dork as long as you have two Jeskai Ascendancy out.
Most decklists can't combo out with a single Sylvan Caryatid unless you have two Jeskai Ascendancy's in play or a Twinflame in hand.
and burning anger lol
1. Play Ascendancy.
2. Play Helix. Untap
3. Tap for mana. Cast a 0 cost artifact. Untap.
4. Bounce with helix. Replay. This is a mana neutral play that lets you dig through deck.
5. Continue looting through deck until you find altar. Play altar. Untap.
6. Bounbce and recur 0 cost artifact infinite times to mill their deck.
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
Creatures
4 Kiora's Follower
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Dragon Mantle
2 Fate Foretold
1 Evanescent Intellect
2 Twinflame
2 Retraction Helix
2 Astral Cornucopia
Card Selection
3 Dig Through Time
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Kruphix's Insight
4 Swan Song
3 Arc Lightning
2 Voyaging Satyr
1 Burning Anger
1 Twinflame
4 Crippling Chill
The manabase is one stolen from a few pages back. It is the 6 fetch variant and I have found it to be pretty strong. I like having only 4 lands that come in tapped and feel that it speeds up the deck by a turn (or at least half a turn).
3 Dig Through Time
I personally believe the strongest card available to enable the combo is Dig Through Time. Looking at seven cards and selecting two, at instant speed when necessary, is just the best thing you can do to find the pieces you need. I think the dig for 7 outweighs the raw card advantage lead that Treasure Cruise offers. You generally aren't trying to find more cards, just specific ones. The mana cost difference between U and UU occasionally is an issue, but mostly you are not using either card until turn 3-4 after you have resolved a Commune with the Gods or Kruphix's Insight. Taking in consideration how valuable I think DTT is for the deck the other card choices become much easier.
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Kruphix's Insight
With the limited room in the deck available to fit in more card sifting I want to fit as many of these cards into the 60 as possible. The reason being, not only do they find key pieces to the combo, they also fill the graveyard which is a premium ability considering how valuable DTT is. Using these cards to turn on DTT also limits the other cards you want in the deck. Largely you want as many enchantments as possible to gain value out of KI as well as guaranteeing that they always hit. This makes other card choices much easier.
1 Evanescent Intellect
Considering I am leaning quite heavily on the green sorcery dig cards to find the pieces I need, I like having an enchantment win condition. The decision then is between EI and Burning Anger. While both cards have various scenarios where they supersede the other, I generally like the spell which costs less. While the mana isn't an issue once you are in a full blown loop, there are times where you are casting non-creature spells and digging for either a Retraction Helix or Astral Cornucopia to reach an infinite loop. EI plays better in these situations than BA.
2 Twinflame
While I think it is quite amusing that TF can be used as a win-condition by copying arbitarily large Mystics and Followers to swing for lethal, I usually use TF as an additional mana-dork while going off. There is a large amount of removal in the meta, and I believe that will be true even after it settles into it's true form. Twinflame can act as Sylvan Caryatid 5 and 6 which helps significantly versus decks capable of just killing all of the non-hexproof creatures.
4 Dragon Mantle
2 Fate Foretold
I chose these cards as my cantrips simply because they are the best cantrips that are also enchantments. I prefer FF over Nylea's Presence as I generally haven't had many mana issues, but gaining a card out of an opposing removal spell is quite useful.
The rest of the deck isn't really negotiable.
I have up to four slots available for games 2-3 to slide cards in. My current order of first remove, to last is...
1 Astral Cornucopia
1 Retraction Helix
I am generally sliding in cards which ideally slow the opposition down by a turn or two, or remove enough interaction from them that I gain at least a turn or two. I feel like these cards, while great, contribute the least to the speed of the deck. The idea is to slow myself by a turn in order to slow them by a turn. I usually only remove 3 cards, but on occasional I will go for a full 4 card cut.
4 Swan Song
This card comes in against blue decks I believe to be running a large number of counters and low cmc removal. Also against B/x control decks running thoughtseize+despise+removal.
3 Arc Lightning
Only against weenie aggressive strategies where I can reliably kill two creatures.
2 Voyaging Satyr
1 Twinflame
I group these cards together because I have been siding them in together. They are for R/x ramp decks or R/B/x decks wehre I believe I will face a ton of removal but less likely to see thoguthseize and despise. I have more time to assemble the pieces I need, just want them to survive.
1 Burning Anger
If I believe a Cranial Extraction type ability is coming, or if they have some other way to prevent self-mill being a kill. I cannot think of any off the to of my head, but insurance isn't bad.
4 Crippling Chill
For G/x decks such as Green Devotion. They generally have a smaller number of attackers which are just very large. Locking down a Polukranos, World Eater or Arbor Colossus for two turns, while also cantripping is very valuable.
Now! Wonderful people, tell me where I'm simply wrong or horribly idiotic.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
when I have an ascendancy in play it is a bit worse since it makes the looting effect worse, but I think the setup turns are way more important than combo turns.
Sadly, due to workload I'm taking a hiatus from MTG for the time being, so you won't be seeing me around the thread much. I absolutely love all the thought and creativity that everyone has put into this deck, and seeing as it's taken on quite the life of its own someone active should take the helm, both for this discussion and for the eventual primer in the Competitive forum, since I'm reasonably certain this is good enough for Established at the very least. If you're interested in maintaining the primer, please PM me so I can credit you in the OP and link interested viewers to any new discussion or primer you create.
We've gone through countless lists, strategies and ideas and Jeskai Ascendancy isn't even Standard legal yet, so I can't wait to see what the community comes up with, and I'm very excited for this year's Standard, even if I won't be taking much of an active part in it. Shout outs to Ashk'rya for never running low on crazy new ideas to keep us on our toes, NinjatheNick, GenericKen and all you deckbuilders for some truly brilliant variants that may well prove themselves the strongest way to break Jeskai Ascendancy, and thanks to everyone here for helping make this pile of jank a real deck. Au revoir!
First of all, Cornucopia seems a bit weak, it doesn't really do a huge amount and we have to be fairly selective of what we include. Yes, it combos off with one mana dude and a helix, but we can fairly easily assemble two to go off with a dragon mantle anyway (or some variant of that) and overall, it seems better if we try and do it with something a bit more individually powerful.
Similarly to all that, I've also made my own decision to increase the number of helix's by 2, as i've been having some issues with fizzling, and this seems to be an excellent way to steal games, as well as act as a psuedo win condition, or even just a way to stall out a game (or bounce hate?)
Finally, I at least, have decided to run the full 4 digs, due to how easy it is to lower the cost drastically, and how efficient it is at finding ascendancy
Naturally, I'm still testing, and probably have done less than others, but I figured i'd share my own opinions anyway
Cheers for the original ideas!
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Not particularily. You should goldfish a few dozen times in order to get the spell priorities right and to know what you can and can't do with X number of creatures and an ascendancy and etc but other than that it isn't too bad.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Modern SplinterTwin