Hmmm...I think I like Altar of the Brood in place of Evanescent Intellect and Fate Foretold. The only problem I see is that Commune with the Gods can't grab Altar.
I've been testing this deck all day and its putting up phenomenal results. At first I thought it was gonna be just a novelty, but I've been shocked by a few facts:
1. The matchup against RG monster/courser decks is just easy. I repeat...EASY. a clock that starts with t3 xenagos, or t4 sarkhan or stormbreath dragon is just not fast enough to be meaningful in any way against this deck.
2. The matchup against thoughtseize decks is also pretty good. There's a surprising amount of resiliency to the combo, because all you need is any 1-2 creatures, and 1 copy of jeskai ascendency - which is findable with 10 very good search spells.
3. Commune with the Gods into Dig through Time is just totally f'in bonkers. It feels like cheating.
4. The aggro matchups are by far the hardest - maybe the only hard ones. I think this is where space in the sideboard should be devoted.
How has the Scry Lands been faring? Because I could cut the cost of the deck (fetchlands already hard on the check book)
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I just got done playing a few test games. Burning Anger NEEDS to be in the main, there is no other way to deal with the creature-hate like Eidolon of Rhetoric and Spirit of the Labyrinth. Anger of the Gods can kill spirit, but it can't kill Eidolon.
I havent seen either of those creatures a single time in testing...
Burning Anger costs 5 mana, which is way more than I'd like to spend while going off. Sure, there are times when the combo nets infinite mana. But there are plenty of times I go off on a mana-neutral play like astral cornucopia for 0 and bounce with helix over and over. Then I loot through the whole deck, find an altar, and mill them out. All for 1 mana. THis is a big percentage of the turn 4 wins, and its a valuable line when the only creature you can keep in play is caryatid (say, against black decks)
How has the Scry Lands been faring? Because I could cut the cost of the deck (fetchlands already hard on the check book)
they've been alright. I still don't think my mana base is optimal. The key is that you need early green, and you need your red not to hurt you cause you might be tapping it over and over to recast mantle with a follower or voyaging satyr.
I've added back the Astral/Helix combo and now consistently hit 4th turn combo. Before I would often fizzle or have to wait till turn 5-6. Pretty happy with this deck, but now worried about sideboarding in prep for real life play!
I've added back the Astral/Helix combo and now consistently hit 4th turn combo. Before I would often fizzle or have to wait till turn 5-6. Pretty happy with this deck, but now worried about sideboarding in prep for real life play!
Maybe I'm missing something, so I'm posting to see if you guys can help me out, but I jumped onto this deck because on paper it looks amazing. I love combo in all formats, especially engine-based combo decks, so this seemed right up my alley. And on top of that, seeing posts boasting "consistent turn 5 kills," "no fizzle rate," and "winning the turn you cast Ascendency" gave me hope this was more than just a gimmick. But my experience has been the EXACT opposite. Out of 20 goldfishes and 5ish real play test matches, I have won less than 5 times and I fizzle almost every single game, and also I am never able to win the turn I cast Ascendency. So I hope you can point out what I'm doing wrong, and maybe help me unlock some of the deck's potential.
The differences from GenericKen's list above are: I run an extra Twinflame over a second Cornucopia, a 22nd land over the Fate Foretold, and 2 Presence over Taigam's. The main issue is I always run out of cards super early. I cast a few cantrips, get some mana floating, start to loot, and then all of a sudden I'm out of cards and I can't keep going. The only games I EVER won were those that I started my combo turn with two dorks and Ascendancy in play and Helix and Mantle in hand, which is trivially easy. I never won a single game where I was missing Mantle or Helix and had to find it. Here's my average goldfish turn:
Scryland (6 cards)
Land, Mana Dork (5 cards)
Land, Commune for Ascendancy, Mana Dork (4 cards)
Combo Turn: Land, Ascendancy (3 cards) Mantle, gaining one mana and looting (3 cards), Twinflame, looting (2 cards), Commune finding creature but no enchantment (still 2 cards), Retraction Helix looting (1 card, not a non creature, fizzle). What am I doing wrong? In most games I simply can't dig more than three to five cards on my combo turn and I HAVE to find Helix and Mantle to keep card parity or else I'm screwed. Any advice would be appreciated.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
I feel like somewhere in that combo turn there should have been a Dig Through Time. (I think you should have been able to cast it, two dorks producing green, a couple of loot'd cards, scraps from Commune).
Maybe test a fourth DtT? Or run Treaure Cruise or even Stream Augury.
Edit: Oh!!! You're not using retraction Helix to bounce Mantle!!! After casting Mantle, you tap the creature helix was on to bounce and replay Mantle. Then you simply repeat until you net enough cards to bounce your opponents board and swing with your 10/10 mana dorks.
I was pretty busy running prereleases this weekend, so I'm sorry if I missed out on anything, but has anyone tried sideboarding yet? I really wanted to try Circle of Flame and potentially Forgeborn Oreads. Both can be found with Commune with the Gods and should work pretty well against the hyperaggressive aggro decks.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
While I haven't actually used, or even seen the deck in action, and Im sure this has already been asked and done, but has anyone tested Eidolon of Blossoms? Considering how we're already casting lots of enchantments, cantripping, and digging, it seems like a reasonable consideration...
I was pretty busy running prereleases this weekend, so I'm sorry if I missed out on anything, but has anyone tried sideboarding yet? I really wanted to try Circle of Flame and potentially Forgeborn Oreads. Both can be found with Commune with the Gods and should work pretty well against the hyperaggressive aggro decks.
Forgeborn Oreads strikes me as a bit slow for an anti-aggro card. There's obviously the option of sideboarding cheap red creature burn such as Magma Spray and Arc Lightning. Nyx-Fleece Ram is also an option. You could even try out Oreskos Sun Guide, which functions as an early blocker but can also go bonkers if you get Ascendancy. Another trick might be replacing Burning Anger (for those decks that run it) with Lightning Volley.
[quote from="pandafarmer »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-new-card-discussion/572039-jeskai-ascendancy-storm?comment=166"]I've added back the Astral/Helix combo and now consistently hit 4th turn combo. Before I would often fizzle or have to wait till turn 5-6. Pretty happy with this deck, but now worried about sideboarding in prep for real life play!
It's goldfishing VERY well, but not sure how it will fair in a "live" environment. Also considering having a transformational sideboard of sorts... abusing tokens/convoke spells or something. Seems like once people know the game plan, it'll be sort of easy for them to disrupt. We're going to be living in a land of good stuff decks again, and with that comes counterspells and disruption in every deck regardless of color.
The transformational SB is a must! It's one of the best things about this deck, you can go from combo to aggro, or the other way around, and will make most of the cards that your OP switches in to disrupt your combo almost useless, giving you a great advantage.
I am revising my decklist this coming weekend. Like others, I feel like adding more win cons. My wincons were 1 Burning Anger and 1 Crater's Claw. This took a while to build up (around Turn 5 or 6) and I had to wait for dorks to land as well.
However, the deck is tight enough as it is. What do I take out? I want to add Helix and Astral Cornucopia (or purse).
So then the question is what to do transform to? Goblin Rabblemaster style agro (they get rid of their removal post SB)? Sarkhan/Elspeth style control (They won't expect the long game)? Jeskai Burn (They may bring in fast threats)? Narset (free Dig Through Time)?
So then the question is what to do transform to? Goblin Rabblemaster style agro (they get rid of their removal post SB)? Sarkhan/Elspeth style control (They won't expect the long game)? Jeskai Burn (They may bring in fast threats)? Narset (free Dig Through Time)?
That doesn't sound really strong to me. Even though we will bring in any hate cards we have we won't change our own gameplan for post board games. Your lategame is still going to be worse than other decks' and your early aggression will be worse too. Your best bet is playing counterspells for enchantment removal and such.
It's goldfishing VERY well, but not sure how it will fair in a "live" environment. Also considering having a transformational sideboard of sorts... abusing tokens/convoke spells or something. Seems like once people know the game plan, it'll be sort of easy for them to disrupt. We're going to be living in a land of good stuff decks again, and with that comes counterspells and disruption in every deck regardless of color.
You have 4 fetchlands but only 2 fetchable sources?
Evanescent intellect might be the best wincon since you can find it with commune. Deck is really fun to goldfish thus far. Considering going big out of the side with the 6/6 hexproof trample guy and other value beef, or possibly something like stoke the flames/lightning strike/magma jet/hordeling outburst. I feel like leaving in parts of the combo is fine but going g2/3 with something less reliant is good. Was considering keranos but he dies to all the same things the ascendancy does as well as being much worse vs deicide (a hugely underrated value card)
IMO Treasure Cruise is one of the best and most synergistic cards in the deck, provides a massive amount of cards for (usually) one mana to discard with ascendency. Is Dig Through Time really better?
If playing Burning Anger, Commune with the gods is superior to Taigam's Scheming. It can give you a cantrip (Dragon Mantle), an Ascendancy or your win condition (Burning Anger) without giving you -1 card in your hand.
What I strongly agree about is changing your win condition as a SB measure, seems like an excellent strategy and can render cards like Deflecting Palm that your op will switch in absolutely useless.
Also, switching cards out for the SB (specifically when wanting to switch in x4 Swan Song) seems extremely difficult, it's like everything in the deck is crucial for getting the combo going. What do you guys usually switch out in your builds?
I like this build a lot. Tormenting Voice is something I'd test out in place of divination as it works well with the delve strategy.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Evanescent Intellect is 3 mana-dork to do is it not?
1 To have the Intellect on.
the other 2 to produce mana.
So if everything is tied up paying for its cost don't you need 1 to bounce something and replay it?
Or I sm not getting the "how" of this thing.
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I am loving this deck. I have no intention of playing it in standard, but I really want it to exist. I think this sort of deck is great for a format as it requires different answers and creates a great diversity to the meta game. I am curious about protection though. The deck, like most combo decks, is built around digging for the combo as early as possible. How do you protect the combo before you go off or protect the win con after comboing? Is it worth it to dedicate main deck for this, or is it relegated to the sideboard? And finally, what would you cut from the deck for side boarded protection (which I assume would be counters and such)?
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This. I feel your best bet is maybe Burning Anger Since Commune with the Gods can get it.
How has the Scry Lands been faring? Because I could cut the cost of the deck (fetchlands already hard on the check book)
Burning Anger costs 5 mana, which is way more than I'd like to spend while going off. Sure, there are times when the combo nets infinite mana. But there are plenty of times I go off on a mana-neutral play like astral cornucopia for 0 and bounce with helix over and over. Then I loot through the whole deck, find an altar, and mill them out. All for 1 mana. THis is a big percentage of the turn 4 wins, and its a valuable line when the only creature you can keep in play is caryatid (say, against black decks)
they've been alright. I still don't think my mana base is optimal. The key is that you need early green, and you need your red not to hurt you cause you might be tapping it over and over to recast mantle with a follower or voyaging satyr.
Could you post your decklist?
The list I'm running is this:
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Kiora's Follower
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Retraction Helix
3 Twinflame
1 Evanescent Intellect
1 Astral Cornucopia
2 Nylea's Presence
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Dig Through Time
4 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Epiphany
The differences from GenericKen's list above are: I run an extra Twinflame over a second Cornucopia, a 22nd land over the Fate Foretold, and 2 Presence over Taigam's. The main issue is I always run out of cards super early. I cast a few cantrips, get some mana floating, start to loot, and then all of a sudden I'm out of cards and I can't keep going. The only games I EVER won were those that I started my combo turn with two dorks and Ascendancy in play and Helix and Mantle in hand, which is trivially easy. I never won a single game where I was missing Mantle or Helix and had to find it. Here's my average goldfish turn:
Scryland (6 cards)
Land, Mana Dork (5 cards)
Land, Commune for Ascendancy, Mana Dork (4 cards)
Combo Turn: Land, Ascendancy (3 cards) Mantle, gaining one mana and looting (3 cards), Twinflame, looting (2 cards), Commune finding creature but no enchantment (still 2 cards), Retraction Helix looting (1 card, not a non creature, fizzle). What am I doing wrong? In most games I simply can't dig more than three to five cards on my combo turn and I HAVE to find Helix and Mantle to keep card parity or else I'm screwed. Any advice would be appreciated.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Maybe test a fourth DtT? Or run Treaure Cruise or even Stream Augury.
Edit: Oh!!! You're not using retraction Helix to bounce Mantle!!! After casting Mantle, you tap the creature helix was on to bounce and replay Mantle. Then you simply repeat until you net enough cards to bounce your opponents board and swing with your 10/10 mana dorks.
About Mindslaver rulings:
Forgeborn Oreads strikes me as a bit slow for an anti-aggro card. There's obviously the option of sideboarding cheap red creature burn such as Magma Spray and Arc Lightning. Nyx-Fleece Ram is also an option. You could even try out Oreskos Sun Guide, which functions as an early blocker but can also go bonkers if you get Ascendancy. Another trick might be replacing Burning Anger (for those decks that run it) with Lightning Volley.
Sure thing, sorry I didn't see this earlier...
4 Kiora's Follower
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Twinflame
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
2 Astral Cornucopia
2 Retraction Helix
1 Burning Anger
4 Defiant Strike
4 Dragon Mantle
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Dig Through Time
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
4 GW Fetch
1 Forest
1 Plains
It's goldfishing VERY well, but not sure how it will fair in a "live" environment. Also considering having a transformational sideboard of sorts... abusing tokens/convoke spells or something. Seems like once people know the game plan, it'll be sort of easy for them to disrupt. We're going to be living in a land of good stuff decks again, and with that comes counterspells and disruption in every deck regardless of color.
The transformational SB is a must! It's one of the best things about this deck, you can go from combo to aggro, or the other way around, and will make most of the cards that your OP switches in to disrupt your combo almost useless, giving you a great advantage.
However, the deck is tight enough as it is. What do I take out? I want to add Helix and Astral Cornucopia (or purse).
Lastly, how is everyone testing the Dig Through Time vs Treasure Cruise?
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That doesn't sound really strong to me. Even though we will bring in any hate cards we have we won't change our own gameplan for post board games. Your lategame is still going to be worse than other decks' and your early aggression will be worse too. Your best bet is playing counterspells for enchantment removal and such.
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You have 4 fetchlands but only 2 fetchable sources?
I like this build a lot. Tormenting Voice is something I'd test out in place of divination as it works well with the delve strategy.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Evanescent Intellect is 3 mana-dork to do is it not?
1 To have the Intellect on.
the other 2 to produce mana.
So if everything is tied up paying for its cost don't you need 1 to bounce something and replay it?
Or I sm not getting the "how" of this thing.
Twinflame can copy your dork and gives haste to it.
Standard: UBR Grixis Control
Modern: U Merfolk
Commander: UB Wydwen, the biting gale
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show