This looks really cool, but I'm not seeing how it actually wins. I understand that this deck gets to untap creatures a ton and recast Dragon Mantle over and over to draw cards and make more mana, but where is the kill card? Are you just trying to make lots of tokens with Twin-Flame and attack with enough of them that you can do lethal even if the opponent has some blockers?
This deck is interesting because it's sort of the complement of the idea with Midnight Guard / Purphoros or Altar of the Brood / Ornithopter / Retraction Helix... in that case, you get a combo from casting creature spells, while this one gives a combo from non-creature spells. I think the Jeskai Ascendency deck has the edge primarily because the cantrip spells available are non-creature spells.
Also OP, can you put the deck up on tappedout so I can playtest it? I don't want to put it up myself since I didn't come up with the idea and don't want to be accused of stealing it.
@Soma: What gets cut for Commune? I assume Divination? I'm afraid of cutting the few sources of actual card advantage, since at some point running out of cards is a problem.
Yep. I'm also playing 2-3 Retraction Helix so the card advantage isn't necessarily as important as finding the combo.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
About the article on SCG i really dislike the Clever Impersonator but the rest seems pretty much what was discussed here.
About Commune vs Scheming I personally like commune as it can add an ascendancy or any other card needed (like a mana dude) straight to my hand rather than setup for next turn or two. It might be worse than Scheming in face of Thoughtseize or Mardu Charm since the card would be safer on top of deck, only vulnerable to Ashiok or some really obscure mill card.
4 Swam Song looks to be a must SB, maybe even some negates for extra protection.
This looks really cool, but I'm not seeing how it actually wins. I understand that this deck gets to untap creatures a ton and recast Dragon Mantle over and over to draw cards and make more mana, but where is the kill card? Are you just trying to make lots of tokens with Twin-Flame and attack with enough of them that you can do lethal even if the opponent has some blockers?
This deck is interesting because it's sort of the complement of the idea with Midnight Guard / Purphoros or Altar of the Brood / Ornithopter / Retraction Helix... in that case, you get a combo from casting creature spells, while this one gives a combo from non-creature spells. I think the Jeskai Ascendency deck has the edge primarily because the cantrip spells available are non-creature spells.
Also OP, can you put the deck up on tappedout so I can playtest it? I don't want to put it up myself since I didn't come up with the idea and don't want to be accused of stealing it.
We've gone through several win conditions (Crater's Claws, Burning Anger, Surrak Dragonclaw, Anax and Cymede to name a few), but my current build just uses Twinflame. Remember that Jeskai Ascendancy boosts all your creatures, so by the time you attack, every creature should have more than 20 power. If your opponent has seven blockers or something you might not be able to do it, but I'm pretty sure that on turn 5, when this deck usually wins, the opponent is not going to have that many untapped creatures. Assuming you cast both Twinflames strived for all your creatures, which is always overkill but is usually doable if you really feel like going off in style, you'll have 24 creatures not counting the Caryatids. Winning isn't really a problem once you draw your whole deck and make very large amounts of mana.
This deck is miles ahead of Purp/Guard/Ornithopter/Helix, because it is a one-card combo. You can win every time you resolve Jeskai Ascendancy with any creature on the field, provided you play right and have a couple spells to start off. We goldfish on turn 5 a high percentage of the time.
I'll edit them into the OP, thanks for the suggestion!
Yep. I'm also playing 2-3 Retraction Helix so the card advantage isn't necessarily as important as finding the combo.
Lemme know how that works out. I'm nervous about being mathematically unable to combo out in games where you can't dig to Retraction Helix (which will happen if your deck is mathematically unable to combo out). It's definitely an interesting route to take, especially with only 8 enchantments.
About the article on SCG i really dislike the Clever Impersonator but the rest seems pretty much what was discussed here.
About Commune vs Scheming I personally like commune as it can add an ascendancy or any other card needed (like a mana dude) straight to my hand rather than setup for next turn or two. It might be worse than Scheming in face of Thoughtseize or Mardu Charm since the card would be safer on top of deck, only vulnerable to Ashiok or some really obscure mill card.
4 Swam Song looks to be a must SB, maybe even some negates for extra protection.
Yeah, Clever Impersonator would be fringe as an enchantment, and it's unplayable as a creature spell. The real advantage of Scheming is that it can keep more than one card if needed, and it can be any card. I'm probably doing some testing later tonight on how each choice affects our goldfish.
4 Swan Song is definitely a must have. I prefer Gods Willing to Negate for the extra protection, if only because it's cheaper. You can also use it as a win condition against a deck with only one color of blockers, and it Scrys for 1 mana, making it decent even if the protection does nothing.
I think this deck benefits greatly from people not knowing what they are playing against. Things can take a turn though, since once your opponents realize they just need to kill your manadudes I assume it'll be hard to protect the combo, especially in the face of enchantment removal.
I think this deck benefits greatly from people not knowing what they are playing against. Things can take a turn though, since once your opponents realize they just need to kill your manadudes I assume it'll be hard to protect the combo, especially in the face of enchantment removal.
If something like Black Devotion is still Tier 1, where they always have removal and always have a reasonable clock, we're in trouble. But most decks full of removal will be pretty slow, and we'll likely to dig into a Caryatid. Our worst matchup is probably mono-black aggro, which packs Thoughtseize and removal in addition to goldfishing only a little slower than us. Hopefully that deck doesn't have great matchups against the rest of the field, but this deck is a great idea if grindy Courser decks are on top, and Block Constructed seems to indicate they will be. Enchantment removal isn't too much of a worry. Sultai Charm and Utter End are good, but since you can win the turn you resolve Ascendancy, sorcery speed removal is not an issue, and if they tap out you can just win. This deck probably beats Sultai Control from Block, will beat Aggro from Block if it wins on Turn 5 as usual, and smashes the midrange decks that won Block. Obviously, KTK and M15 make Standard much more powerful than just Theros Block, but having good matchups against the best Theros decks means that I'm fairly comfortable with our matchups, at least until the metagame shakes out. We're pretty easy to hate out with sideboard cards, but if we're getting Tier 1 decks to dedicate slots specifically to us we've won a moral victory at the very least.
You can play around it with Burning Anger depending when you draw it, you can shoot for smaller increments at a time so they won't kill you if they have it.
Black Aggro naturally struggles against courser decks, so I have a feeling that MBA will be knocked out early and often. Also, circle of flame has been nuts in testing. It gives me at least another 2 turn to dig and set up.
Black Aggro naturally struggles against courser decks, so I have a feeling that MBA will be knocked out early and often. Also, circle of flame has been nuts in testing. It gives me at least another 2 turn to dig and set up.
I don't know about you, but my black agro runs 4 Crippling Blight MD. Bloodsoaked champion is a house, and black will be a factor.
That being said, MBA is completely dead to Sylvan Caryatid. This is why it's so important to be able to kill off of just the 0/3.
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Here's my latest list: the innovation is in the manabase - it's able to support 8 scry lands and just 1 tri-land by cutting down on white. It feels a lot better than a fetch manabase, especially after Dig Through Time sends trash to the bottom. These, in addition to a couple of Taigam's Schemings, make me feel a lot better about digging past the 30th card by turn 6.
Nylea's is the fifth Mantle, and Taigam's the fifth and sixth Commune to support Dig through Time.
This list is Twinflame only g1. I'd really love to find a slot for Burning Anger or Evanescent Intellect MD, but I can't quite figure out where. Maybe one of the twinflames? Revealing 3 twinflames with a Commune with the Gods would suck, esp with a caryatid only combo. Maybe cut a Taigam? I kind of like having 6 digging, but 8 card disadvantage cards with 4 helix is already a little tight.
I don't like the idea of cutting helixes without running something mid-rangey like Eidolon of Blossoms or Goblinslide or Courser of Kruphix. Or maybe Goblin Rabblemaster.
What should I cut? A Twinflame, a Taigam's, or maybe a Kiora's? Has anyone dared to cut down to 20 land?
EDIT: Oo. If an opponent tries to hose your Burning Anger with a Deflecting Palm, you can untap at instant speed with a Helix or a Dig through Time.
"Cast Divination
Trigger Ascendancy
Stack triggers you see fit (either Draw/Discard or +1/+1/Untap)
Resolve Triggers
Resolve Divination"
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
So here's my decklist I've been fishing. It usually pulls off T5 kill, with the rare T4. Once in a while it will go to T6 or fizzle though.
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Defiant Strike
2 Divination
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Dig Through Time
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Dragon Mantle
4 Kiora's Follower
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Burning Anger
1 Retraction Helix
2 Twinflame
4 Commune with the Gods
SB: 3 End Hostilities
SB: 4 Anger of the Gods
SB: 4 Crippling Chill
SB: 4 Swan Song
I've had the problem of revealing Jeskai and Anger both on a single Commune a few times. I'm stuck comboing without a real win condition in that case.
Even with out Anger seems really good to combo.
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
Twinflame or any strive card can't target the same creature more than once according to their rulings page. And since copy effects only copy the original state of a creature and no power/toughness alterations, how exactly would twinflame kill your opponent? And how would the Ascendancy P/T triggers win you the game if an opponent has an untapped creature on turn 5 which is perfectly likely.
If you cast a spell it must be on the stack to trigger ascendancy's looting trigger which means the looting will resolve before your spell resolves, the same with the untap triggers, you can't just stick a trigger in the stack where ever you want. But you do get to decide if the untap trigger or the looting trigger resolve first since they trigger simultaneously.
Just want people to understand the stack and rulings as they develop the deck. Because I'm seeing startling conclusions like you can make 24 creatures with a game winning twinflame, and that you can manipulate the stack anyway you want.
Twinflame or any strive card can't target the same creature more than once according to their rulings page. And since copy effects only copy the original state of a creature and no power/toughness alterations, how exactly would twinflame kill your opponent? And how would the Ascendancy P/T triggers win you the game if an opponent has an untapped creature on turn 5 which is perfectly likely.
If you cast a spell it must be on the stack to trigger ascendancy's looting trigger which means the looting will resolve before your spell resolves, the same with the untap triggers, you can't just stick a trigger in the stack where ever you want. But you do get to decide if the untap trigger or the looting trigger resolve first since they trigger simultaneously.
Just want people to understand the stack and rulings as they develop the deck. Because I'm seeing startling conclusions like you can make 24 creatures with a game winning twinflame, and that you can manipulate the stack anyway you want.
Well when I played the deck on MTGO it asked me which trigger I wanted stacked.
So..
As well with the Helix on something if you have enough cards to cast with draw spells you can bounce your opp. creatures so you don't have to deal with a lot of there blockers
Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I said you could order the triggers anyway you wanted them.
And apparently I misread your post, I didn't sleep last night and i swear i read divination/draw/discard/+1/+1 trigger. I thought i was reading you could loot after divination resolved.
Still think someone misunderstood how twinflame works though. Andddd apparently this is under some scenario where you have 6 mana dorks and cast both twinflames......guess it wasn't a rules misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding how the the game works in real life.
Still think someone misunderstood how twinflame works though. Andddd apparently this is under some scenario where you have 6 mana dorks and cast both twinflames......guess it wasn't a rules misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding how the the game works in real life.
In games where I wind up drawing Helix and Mantle before I draw any Twinflames or discard any dorks, I draw my deck, play 4 Ascendancy for infinite mana, play out all my dorks, and Twinflame the team twice. Again, totally useless, since you never need that many infinite power creatures, but it's very doable if you really want to.
I guess that's the thing.. why would I want to draw my deck and copy my 8-12 dorks twice when I could cast Burning Anger and shoot them as many times as I need?
Idea of the deck is there but I can't help but feel you people are being misled by calling it a 1 card combo. The combo needs at least 3 cards to go off. Sure you need 1 specific card and the other few can be any combinations of mana dork + spells but even so you still need a combination. Having all dorks no spells or no spells all dorks will be possible. Initially I really loved the deck but after diving deeper I just see too many cases of inconsistency, either by fizzling halfway by looting continuous lands or continuous dorks Or by people just plain stopping you
It happens occasionally, but that happens to every non-infinite combo deck from time to time. It's the risk you're willing to take by playing nonconventionally. This deck in particular probably isn't consistent enough to ever be tier 1, but I've been surprised at how resilient and consistent it is when built and piloted correctly.
I run Karametra's Favor and Nylea's Presence as cantripping enchantments and they actually eliminate a lot of the deck's color concerns as a side effect and make the deck a lot more consistent which is hilarious
This deck is interesting because it's sort of the complement of the idea with Midnight Guard / Purphoros or Altar of the Brood / Ornithopter / Retraction Helix... in that case, you get a combo from casting creature spells, while this one gives a combo from non-creature spells. I think the Jeskai Ascendency deck has the edge primarily because the cantrip spells available are non-creature spells.
Also OP, can you put the deck up on tappedout so I can playtest it? I don't want to put it up myself since I didn't come up with the idea and don't want to be accused of stealing it.
Yep. I'm also playing 2-3 Retraction Helix so the card advantage isn't necessarily as important as finding the combo.
About Commune vs Scheming I personally like commune as it can add an ascendancy or any other card needed (like a mana dude) straight to my hand rather than setup for next turn or two. It might be worse than Scheming in face of Thoughtseize or Mardu Charm since the card would be safer on top of deck, only vulnerable to Ashiok or some really obscure mill card.
4 Swam Song looks to be a must SB, maybe even some negates for extra protection.
We've gone through several win conditions (Crater's Claws, Burning Anger, Surrak Dragonclaw, Anax and Cymede to name a few), but my current build just uses Twinflame. Remember that Jeskai Ascendancy boosts all your creatures, so by the time you attack, every creature should have more than 20 power. If your opponent has seven blockers or something you might not be able to do it, but I'm pretty sure that on turn 5, when this deck usually wins, the opponent is not going to have that many untapped creatures. Assuming you cast both Twinflames strived for all your creatures, which is always overkill but is usually doable if you really feel like going off in style, you'll have 24 creatures not counting the Caryatids. Winning isn't really a problem once you draw your whole deck and make very large amounts of mana.
This deck is miles ahead of Purp/Guard/Ornithopter/Helix, because it is a one-card combo. You can win every time you resolve Jeskai Ascendancy with any creature on the field, provided you play right and have a couple spells to start off. We goldfish on turn 5 a high percentage of the time.
Here is the tappedout link: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/17-09-14-jeskai-ascendancy-storm/
And the link to the Aura build: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jeskai-ascendancy-storm-aura-variant/
I'll edit them into the OP, thanks for the suggestion!
Lemme know how that works out. I'm nervous about being mathematically unable to combo out in games where you can't dig to Retraction Helix (which will happen if your deck is mathematically unable to combo out). It's definitely an interesting route to take, especially with only 8 enchantments.
Yeah, Clever Impersonator would be fringe as an enchantment, and it's unplayable as a creature spell. The real advantage of Scheming is that it can keep more than one card if needed, and it can be any card. I'm probably doing some testing later tonight on how each choice affects our goldfish.
4 Swan Song is definitely a must have. I prefer Gods Willing to Negate for the extra protection, if only because it's cheaper. You can also use it as a win condition against a deck with only one color of blockers, and it Scrys for 1 mana, making it decent even if the protection does nothing.
I still want to mess with Genesis Hydra as a way to look for Jeskai Ascendancy. Helix to bounce it back and then replay it? Seems janky but fun
Also, Dictate of Karametra with kiora's follower wants to be in that version too I think. Pretty nice accelerator in my opinion
Green is the earth, and the Jeskai flower blooms from it.
But I apologize, I'll stop so you can focus on the main line of thought. The article above was a nice affirmation eh??
Youtube Channel
yeah, i know. forget it lol, please continue
If something like Black Devotion is still Tier 1, where they always have removal and always have a reasonable clock, we're in trouble. But most decks full of removal will be pretty slow, and we'll likely to dig into a Caryatid. Our worst matchup is probably mono-black aggro, which packs Thoughtseize and removal in addition to goldfishing only a little slower than us. Hopefully that deck doesn't have great matchups against the rest of the field, but this deck is a great idea if grindy Courser decks are on top, and Block Constructed seems to indicate they will be. Enchantment removal isn't too much of a worry. Sultai Charm and Utter End are good, but since you can win the turn you resolve Ascendancy, sorcery speed removal is not an issue, and if they tap out you can just win. This deck probably beats Sultai Control from Block, will beat Aggro from Block if it wins on Turn 5 as usual, and smashes the midrange decks that won Block. Obviously, KTK and M15 make Standard much more powerful than just Theros Block, but having good matchups against the best Theros decks means that I'm fairly comfortable with our matchups, at least until the metagame shakes out. We're pretty easy to hate out with sideboard cards, but if we're getting Tier 1 decks to dedicate slots specifically to us we've won a moral victory at the very least.
I cast divination with Jeskai Ascendency in play. I can choose whether I draw two or resolve the Jeskai trigger first right?
I don't know about you, but my black agro runs 4 Crippling Blight MD. Bloodsoaked champion is a house, and black will be a factor.
That being said, MBA is completely dead to Sylvan Caryatid. This is why it's so important to be able to kill off of just the 0/3.
*
Here's my latest list: the innovation is in the manabase - it's able to support 8 scry lands and just 1 tri-land by cutting down on white. It feels a lot better than a fetch manabase, especially after Dig Through Time sends trash to the bottom. These, in addition to a couple of Taigam's Schemings, make me feel a lot better about digging past the 30th card by turn 6.
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Plenty
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Kiora's Follower
2 Astral Cornucopia
4 Retraction Helix
4 Dragon Mantle
1 Nylea's Presence
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Taigam's Scheming
3 Twinflame
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
3 Dig Through Time
Nylea's is the fifth Mantle, and Taigam's the fifth and sixth Commune to support Dig through Time.
This list is Twinflame only g1. I'd really love to find a slot for Burning Anger or Evanescent Intellect MD, but I can't quite figure out where. Maybe one of the twinflames? Revealing 3 twinflames with a Commune with the Gods would suck, esp with a caryatid only combo. Maybe cut a Taigam? I kind of like having 6 digging, but 8 card disadvantage cards with 4 helix is already a little tight.
I don't like the idea of cutting helixes without running something mid-rangey like Eidolon of Blossoms or Goblinslide or Courser of Kruphix. Or maybe Goblin Rabblemaster.
What should I cut? A Twinflame, a Taigam's, or maybe a Kiora's? Has anyone dared to cut down to 20 land?
EDIT: Oo. If an opponent tries to hose your Burning Anger with a Deflecting Palm, you can untap at instant speed with a Helix or a Dig through Time.
Modern SplinterTwin
Jeskai has to happen first. Jeskai happens before the spell resolves.
"Cast Divination
Trigger Ascendancy
Stack triggers you see fit (either Draw/Discard or +1/+1/Untap)
Resolve Triggers
Resolve Divination"
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Defiant Strike
2 Divination
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Dig Through Time
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Dragon Mantle
4 Kiora's Follower
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Burning Anger
1 Retraction Helix
2 Twinflame
4 Commune with the Gods
SB: 3 End Hostilities
SB: 4 Anger of the Gods
SB: 4 Crippling Chill
SB: 4 Swan Song
I've had the problem of revealing Jeskai and Anger both on a single Commune a few times. I'm stuck comboing without a real win condition in that case.
Even with out Anger seems really good to combo.
Twinflame or any strive card can't target the same creature more than once according to their rulings page. And since copy effects only copy the original state of a creature and no power/toughness alterations, how exactly would twinflame kill your opponent? And how would the Ascendancy P/T triggers win you the game if an opponent has an untapped creature on turn 5 which is perfectly likely.
If you cast a spell it must be on the stack to trigger ascendancy's looting trigger which means the looting will resolve before your spell resolves, the same with the untap triggers, you can't just stick a trigger in the stack where ever you want. But you do get to decide if the untap trigger or the looting trigger resolve first since they trigger simultaneously.
Just want people to understand the stack and rulings as they develop the deck. Because I'm seeing startling conclusions like you can make 24 creatures with a game winning twinflame, and that you can manipulate the stack anyway you want.
Well when I played the deck on MTGO it asked me which trigger I wanted stacked.
So..
As well with the Helix on something if you have enough cards to cast with draw spells you can bounce your opp. creatures so you don't have to deal with a lot of there blockers
And apparently I misread your post, I didn't sleep last night and i swear i read divination/draw/discard/+1/+1 trigger. I thought i was reading you could loot after divination resolved.
Still think someone misunderstood how twinflame works though. Andddd apparently this is under some scenario where you have 6 mana dorks and cast both twinflames......guess it wasn't a rules misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding how the the game works in real life.
In games where I wind up drawing Helix and Mantle before I draw any Twinflames or discard any dorks, I draw my deck, play 4 Ascendancy for infinite mana, play out all my dorks, and Twinflame the team twice. Again, totally useless, since you never need that many infinite power creatures, but it's very doable if you really want to.
I run Karametra's Favor and Nylea's Presence as cantripping enchantments and they actually eliminate a lot of the deck's color concerns as a side effect and make the deck a lot more consistent which is hilarious