Thats some great stuff for us, that can be discussed :).
Well in my opinion, i also would want to board out Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix and put in some more stuff, for punching them hard in the face ;).
But, we cant do that, that easily.
Why?
1. We play 3 colors, if we are lacking of a deeply needed color, our face will shine and smile when we draw a Caryatid. Fact!
2. Caryatid is a multi purpose tool: Blocker (although i early 3/x creatures are a headache for the Caryatid), mana fixer, ramper. 3 Modes in 1 creature and its hexproof!
4. Caryatid can help us to race ramping decks, or at least keep "somehow" up with them ...
3. The courser has a solid body with 2/4, doesnt die to the must burn spells.
4. He acclerates our play, because he is a CA engine. Imagine all the lands, that we would have to draw every turn by ourself and not getting them on the battlefield, as soon they get revealed...
I'm still not into caryatid, it's not really a good blocker either since it can't handle most 3+ drops or even a lot of 2 drops. It's essentially just a land that cost 2 mana to play. My version of the deck only has roc's, sorin, and rhino to ramp into anyway so caryatid isn't a huge loss. Also I'm cutting brimaz, so the deck now is essentially g/b splashing white for fleecemane, charm, rhino, sorin , and rocs. The only card that has double white costs in there are the rocs and they are a turn 5 play. I'd rather start throwing out threats turn 2 than ramping.
Courser on the other hand I will be keeping for the time being, I just mentioned him in that post because he's on my watch list I think boon satyr would make him better, since it can make his body relevant in the mid-late game. Three coursers and 3 satyrs might be correct but I'm trying 4 courser and 2 satyrs. We'll see what happens.
I think silence the believers is a great option, especially in grindy matchups. There will be times where you will be at 7 lands and they have two big creatures. Even if you don't get the 2-1 it's still a fine card without the strive.
On stain the mind, what would you name? I'm not sure why you want it.
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Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I'm still not into caryatid, it's not really a good blocker either since it can't handle most 3+ drops or even a lot of 2 drops. It's essentially just a land that cost 2 mana to play. My version of the deck only has roc's, sorin, and rhino to ramp into anyway so caryatid isn't a huge loss. Also I'm cutting brimaz, so the deck now is essentially g/b splashing white for fleecemane, charm, rhino, sorin , and rocs. The only card that has double white costs in there are the rocs and they are a turn 5 play. I'd rather start throwing out threats turn 2 than ramping.
Courser on the other hand I will be keeping for the time being, I just mentioned him in that post because he's on my watch list I think boon satyr would make him better, since it can make his body relevant in the mid-late game. Three coursers and 3 satyrs might be correct but I'm trying 4 courser and 2 satyrs.
Could you post an updated decklist? I'm curious to see how your tweaks impact gameplay.
I'm not sure if the manabase is correct, I could probably cut a cave for either a llanowar wastes, sandsteppe citadel, or jungle hollow. I also cut a plains for another windswept heath.
I'm also not sure if I want 2 murderous cut, I could cut one for a 3rd boon satyr, I could also cut a courser for a 3rd satyr.
Something else that gains a lot of value by playing boon satyrs is heir of the wilds, maybe it has a place in here. It could also be right to play 4 deathdealers with the 4 lions to ensure that I can get a powerful 2 drop in play on turn 2, just goldfishing this list, it sucks if I don't get one of them turn 2 (it always sucks if you don't get a 2 drop in this deck though).
How do we matchup to Jeskai Tempo that was wrecking everything in the NJ SCG Open.
Comparing my list to the abzan list that lost to the 1st place jeskai deck I notice that he just has the one sorin in the board, he has 11 tapped lands (I have 9) and none of his tapped lands are temples. He also has pridemate as his turn 2 aggressive threat, and I now have lions and deathdealers as turn 2 aggressive threats, both of which are better on their own than the pridemate is. he also has 4 (!) mana confluence, which is way, way, wayyyyy too many.
I think it's close game 1, it depends on the amount of pain lands both decks get, and if you can hit sorin or chain rhinos/rocs or not.
Post board I honestly like my deck more, not trying to sound conceded or anything. I have 3 brain maggot and a thoughtseize, which is all great for taking away 4 damage burn spells, I've got 2 bows, 3 sorin, 4 rhinos, and 3 rocs for lifegain, I think I could take apart his hand and push him on the backfoot with early aggressive threats which would allow me to take over the game with my lifegain spells. I haven't tested against this exact jeskai list though and I might be missing something.
Bottom line: I ain't shook
EDIT: lol I was on round 9 in the coverage (watching the vod) and it looks like round 10 is jeskai against abzan again, so I'll have to see how this plays out.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Haven't looked in here for a while. I had been doing well with Junk prerotation and updated it for FNM. I didn't get much sleep, worked 11 hours, and got out just in time for FNM so I was pretty exhausted and ended up making quite a few play errors, but still managed to top 8. In Swiss, I beat Rabble Red, Black/White Aggro, and Mono Green Devotion. The one swiss game that I took a loss in was against UG Midrange and that was questionable. I had forgotten to record Siege Rhino's trigger on my life pad and he had recorded it, but hadn't recorded when I hit him for 3 trample. It was the end of the round and he yelled "I got it 2-1" By the time I figured out what had happened, pairings were up and I was told it was too late, but I should have been at 3 and he should have been at -2. ***** happens. I drew into the top 8 and lost against B/W Aggro. I won game 1, lost game 1, and would have won game 3, but misplayed into a loss. His team was pumped up to 4 power and I was planning to play elspeth and blow up his team the following turn, but I was so tired I blocked his chief of the edge knocking them down to 3 power. I still would have been fine but for him drawing a 2nd Mogis' Marauder intimidate for lethal. My build's less aggressive than the other one's I've seen people running, but preformed well against the aggro decks I went up against and has more over the top power to beat other midrange decks. This is my current list.
Yes, the mana base is pretty klunky, but the Bile Blights and Drown in Sorrow give me game against aggro game 1 and the mana requirements of the deck are too extreme for the fetches to be very good in it. Last standard taught us the power of scrylands and I decided to adapt my deck to survive aggro through scrylands instead of ditching them. There are some matchups where Drown in Sorrow isn't great, but it's rarely completely dead and where it's good, it's game winning. I was expecting the meta to be good for it and it was great every match I played Friday. Most people play it for the aggro decks, but it's also great against ramp decks that overload on mana dorks and situationly good against opposing Elspeths, Hornet queen, and Empty the Pitts. Chord is awesome with Elspeth tokens and even though I don't play a toolbox, the creatures I do play are good enough that being able to choose between them for the situation. I've even Chorded for a caryatid off of a courser turn 4 so I could play a turn 5 elspeth. The Glut of 3 mana spells is a potenial problem, but they're all powerful enough to make up for it and the scrylands help there as well.
Thats some great stuff for us, that can be discussed :).
Well in my opinion, i also would want to board out Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix and put in some more stuff, for punching them hard in the face ;).
But, we cant do that, that easily.
Why?
1. We play 3 colors, if we are lacking of a deeply needed color, our face will shine and smile when we draw a Caryatid. Fact!
2. Caryatid is a multi purpose tool: Blocker (although i early 3/x creatures are a headache for the Caryatid), mana fixer, ramper. 3 Modes in 1 creature and its hexproof!
4. Caryatid can help us to race ramping decks, or at least keep "somehow" up with them ...
3. The courser has a solid body with 2/4, doesnt die to the must burn spells.
4. He acclerates our play, because he is a CA engine. Imagine all the lands, that we would have to draw every turn by ourself and not getting them on the battlefield, as soon they get revealed...
I'm still not into caryatid, it's not really a good blocker either since it can't handle most 3+ drops or even a lot of 2 drops. It's essentially just a land that cost 2 mana to play. My version of the deck only has roc's, sorin, and rhino to ramp into anyway so caryatid isn't a huge loss. Also I'm cutting brimaz, so the deck now is essentially g/b splashing white for fleecemane, charm, rhino, sorin , and rocs. The only card that has double white costs in there are the rocs and they are a turn 5 play. I'd rather start throwing out threats turn 2 than ramping.
Courser on the other hand I will be keeping for the time being, I just mentioned him in that post because he's on my watch list I think boon satyr would make him better, since it can make his body relevant in the mid-late game. Three coursers and 3 satyrs might be correct but I'm trying 4 courser and 2 satyrs. We'll see what happens.
I think silence the believers is a great option, especially in grindy matchups. There will be times where you will be at 7 lands and they have two big creatures. Even if you don't get the 2-1 it's still a fine card without the strive.
On stain the mind, what would you name? I'm not sure why you want it.
Hey...
Yeah, one of my test games on XMage was against an aggro deck that had the warrior "tribe" in it. It played Chief of the Scale and Chief of the Edge, there are some other Warrior Creatures that are played in an Aggro Deck. So, Caryatid is not doing well against those ...
When would you play Empty the Pits and against which kind of deck?
The idea behind empty the pits was that I would use it against decks with a lot of removal to have a "I win" card. I figured we'd be trading resources a ton and probably get into some sort of top deck war, and I'd be able to empty for like x=5-8 (i'm talking about the late game here). You could also tutor for it with Liliana. I took it out though because, at least how it appears now, there aren't any decks that are just a pile of removal spells and a few wincon's, even then we are probably too aggressive for them/our threats are too resilient for them to make it to the long game. So now I'm looking at cards to break board stalls instead, like bow of nylea and boon satyr.
Brain maggot seems better than despise to me, not just because it has a body, but because it can take anything. And because the opponent can get their card back, they'll be incentivized to kill it. For example you cast brain maggot and see...
caryatid, courser, xenagos, genesis hydra, lightning strike 2 lands and they just have a land in play (assuming you are on the play, this is just an example).
If you take the xenagos, now they have to decide between playing the caryatid or kill the maggot then you untap and play a deathdealer/lion that they now don't have a removal spell for, and they are now a turn behind where they wanted to be because they don't have ramp. You could also just take the caryatid, then use him for a chump attack turn 5 for a wingmate because who cares if they get their caryatid back at that point?
Maggot is also seemingly better because against a deck like the jeskai deck it can take a burn spell and trigger raid later on.
You're not trying to actually take away a card permanently, just gain enough tempo to help push them on the backfoot if that makes any sense, it's also never really dead because it's at least a body that can chump block/attack, whereas you can just have a dead card in your hand if you drew despise turn 5 or 6.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I like this. I'll try this but with Herald of Torments over the Wingmates, and a couple Whips and a single Chord instead of Sorin, mostly for budget reasons... as I don't have any Sorins.
Whipping Rhinos in for the ETB, Lifelink, and Trample has been pretty effective in my own testing, and I'm a Herald of Torment junkie from playing B/W Constellation. Grants Evasion and still leaves you with a 3/3 Flyer should the bestow target eat removal... that and I find flying Rhinos hilarious.
I agree with your arguments on Brain Maggot, BUT and its a huge but ;):
In my opinion, if Brain Maggot is killed and they get their card back ,that could also be an turning point. Especially if the card was an important one, so they get their things rolling because if the taken card...
It does good stuff, but if its removed, i will be in trouble (probably...)
That's fair I think it's close between the two but I like maggots more.
On banishing light,
It does good stuff, but if its removed, you will be in trouble (probably...)
Seriously though, this meta seems pretty well setup to deal with them, there's quite a few g/x midrange/devotion/whatever decks that have chord of calling and one reclamation sage in their maindeck. I think it's risky. Downfall pretty much deals with whatever we need to deal with, but if you want something else to kill anything then utter end is probably a better choice, but I'm not sure you even need it, if you are being aggressive.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Thats some great stuff for us, that can be discussed :).
Well in my opinion, i also would want to board out Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix and put in some more stuff, for punching them hard in the face ;).
But, we cant do that, that easily.
Why?
1. We play 3 colors, if we are lacking of a deeply needed color, our face will shine and smile when we draw a Caryatid. Fact!
2. Caryatid is a multi purpose tool: Blocker (although i early 3/x creatures are a headache for the Caryatid), mana fixer, ramper. 3 Modes in 1 creature and its hexproof!
4. Caryatid can help us to race ramping decks, or at least keep "somehow" up with them ...
3. The courser has a solid body with 2/4, doesnt die to the must burn spells.
4. He acclerates our play, because he is a CA engine. Imagine all the lands, that we would have to draw every turn by ourself and not getting them on the battlefield, as soon they get revealed...
I'm still not into caryatid, it's not really a good blocker either since it can't handle most 3+ drops or even a lot of 2 drops. It's essentially just a land that cost 2 mana to play. My version of the deck only has roc's, sorin, and rhino to ramp into anyway so caryatid isn't a huge loss. Also I'm cutting brimaz, so the deck now is essentially g/b splashing white for fleecemane, charm, rhino, sorin , and rocs. The only card that has double white costs in there are the rocs and they are a turn 5 play. I'd rather start throwing out threats turn 2 than ramping.
Courser on the other hand I will be keeping for the time being, I just mentioned him in that post because he's on my watch list I think boon satyr would make him better, since it can make his body relevant in the mid-late game. Three coursers and 3 satyrs might be correct but I'm trying 4 courser and 2 satyrs. We'll see what happens.
I think silence the believers is a great option, especially in grindy matchups. There will be times where you will be at 7 lands and they have two big creatures. Even if you don't get the 2-1 it's still a fine card without the strive.
On stain the mind, what would you name? I'm not sure why you want it.
I'm with you on Caryatid. I just feel like this deck should be playing threats and be able to protect them. Caryatid (and Courser) doesn't fit the bill. I'm going to lower my curve and see how it plays out. Probably something like this
I'm with you on Caryatid. I just feel like this deck should be playing threats and be able to protect them. Caryatid (and Courser) doesn't fit the bill. I'm going to lower my curve and see how it plays out. Probably something like this
I like this list, the only things I don't like are anafenza in the main since I think it will get outclassed a lot of the time (same problem with brimaz) I think it should be a bestow creature so you can make your creatures bigger, which helps break board stalls if one occurs, and both herald and satyr are fine turn 3 threats as well.
I also don't like the one swamp, it's not fetchable, and it doesn't help you much if you are trying to go fleecemane into courser. You could say the same about plains if you want to go deathdealer into courser, but the plains being fetchable gives it more value. It might be better served as a caves of koilos.
I'm also not a fan of bile blight, but it's fine.
I like herald in here a lot, it might be better than boon satyr since it gives flying. I need to test the differences between those two cards. It's very likely it's better though. I do think you want 25 lands though to hit your rocs on curve.
I really like 4 deathdealers in both of these lists, and that's what I'm going to do. It could be awkward to have 2 out, but it really increases the chances of having a strong turn 2 play. Temple of plenty is also an interesting addition in the manabase. It could be right to play 4 of them and 4 citadels with 3 of each pain to consistently hit deathdealer or fleecemane on turn 2. The only thing is that you will have more opportunity to get fleecemane on turn 2 than deathdealer because you have windswept heath and only 6 painlands. It's going to be hard to build the right manabase for this deck, but I think we are getting closer. I do think that the manabase is the biggest thing we have to sort out though.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I like herald in here a lot, it might be better than boon satyr since it gives flying. I need to test the differences between those two cards. It's very likely it's better though. I do think you want 25 lands though to hit your rocs on curve.
I really like 4 deathdealers in both of these lists, and that's what I'm going to do. It could be awkward to have 2 out, but it really increases the chances of having a strong turn 2 play. Temple of plenty is also an interesting addition in the manabase. It could be right to play 4 of them and 4 citadels with 3 of each pain to consistently hit deathdealer or fleecemane on turn 2. The only thing is that you will have more opportunity to get fleecemane on turn 2 than deathdealer because you have windswept heath and only 6 painlands. It's going to be hard to build the right manabase for this deck, but I think we are getting closer. I do think that the manabase is the biggest thing we have to sort out though.
Agreed about the mana base. I'm hoping Urborg can help. Im also considering dropping one Heath for just a plains because having 4 fetchlands to fetch 5 lands seems a little much. Mana Confluence is also a thing, but from watching some of the SCG coverage they seemed to be hurting more than helping, at least you can tap a painland for colorless if you need to. I think I'll put a 3rd LLanowar waste in there and drop an Abzan Charm.
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How the heck does a 4/4 for 3 get outclassed? 4/4 for 3 is the definition of outclassing your opponent....
Also, if you are running mostly 3 drops, run elvish mystics, a 4/4 on turn 2 is very hard to deal with. Same with a 3/4 that makes 1/1's.
If you are looking to drop 4 drops (which is the route I am going I think), keep caryatids and add polukranos as a couple of along with siege rhino. Make the most of your mana.
[Quote]I like herald in here a lot, it might be better than boon satyr since it gives flying. I need to test the differences between those two cards. It's very likely it's better though. I do think you want 25 lands though to hit your rocs on curve.
I really like 4 deathdealers in both of these lists, and that's what I'm going to do. It could be awkward to have 2 out, but it really increases the chances of having a strong turn 2 play. Temple of plenty is also an interesting addition in the manabase. It could be right to play 4 of them and 4 citadels with 3 of each pain to consistently hit deathdealer or fleecemane on turn 2. The only thing is that you will have more opportunity to get fleecemane on turn 2 than deathdealer because you have windswept heath and only 6 painlands. It's going to be hard to build the right manabase for this deck, but I think we are getting closer. I do think that the manabase is the biggest thing we have to sort out though.
Mana Confluence is an amazing card in a 3 color set... the problem was too many people were running them as 4 of's. Taking it out I think will really hurt your chances (especially all these people thinking caryatid should leave) of casting your siege rhino.
How the heck does a 4/4 for 3 get outclassed? 4/4 for 3 is the definition of outclassing your opponent....
Also, if you are running mostly 3 drops, run elvish mystics, a 4/4 on turn 2 is very hard to deal with. Same with a 3/4 that makes 1/1's.
If you are looking to drop 4 drops (which is the route I am going I think), keep caryatids and add polukranos as a couple of along with siege rhino. Make the most of your mana.
It gets outclassed because the meta is full of ramp decks right now. You cast anafenza turn 3, they cast polukranos turn 3 then follow it up with an active nylea, or just kill it with the polukranos, sure we can remove these threats, but you need to keep in mind what the best thing your opponent's could be playing against you and how you react to them in your worst case scenario. It's not fast enough to get under the fatties that these decks play and it can't attack into them, that's why siege rhino and wingmate are so good rhino does something other than just attack and wingmates can fly over. In almost every game anafenza will just be a vanilla 4/4 for 3, while that's a really good rate, it's not good right now. After these ramp decks leave the meta it will be a solid maindeck card (and it's a solid sideboard card now).
If we add in mystics and keep caryatids then we are playing the same game as the devotion decks, and honestly, they do it better. They can take advantage of nykthos, which lets them play things like hornet queen and makes their polukranos better than ours. I think the power of this color combo comes from our early threats, we don't really have many fatties to ramp out aside from rhino and wingmate (who doesn't work well with ramping anyway). Deathdealer and fleecemane are good manasinks if you get flooded.
[Quote]I like herald in here a lot, it might be better than boon satyr since it gives flying. I need to test the differences between those two cards. It's very likely it's better though. I do think you want 25 lands though to hit your rocs on curve.
I really like 4 deathdealers in both of these lists, and that's what I'm going to do. It could be awkward to have 2 out, but it really increases the chances of having a strong turn 2 play. Temple of plenty is also an interesting addition in the manabase. It could be right to play 4 of them and 4 citadels with 3 of each pain to consistently hit deathdealer or fleecemane on turn 2. The only thing is that you will have more opportunity to get fleecemane on turn 2 than deathdealer because you have windswept heath and only 6 painlands. It's going to be hard to build the right manabase for this deck, but I think we are getting closer. I do think that the manabase is the biggest thing we have to sort out though.
Mana Confluence is an amazing card in a 3 color set... the problem was too many people were running them as 4 of's. Taking it out I think will really hurt your chances (especially all these people thinking caryatid should leave) of casting your siege rhino.
Mana confluence is a really bad choice, the fixing is good enough without it, I don't know if you watched the scg tournament on Saturday, but a lot of people were dying to their manabase because of that card.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I like Herald because you can turn your Raskshasa or your Courser into a 6/6 or 5/7 flier respectively. Either of which can eat a stormbreath, Plus it gives evasion. Sorin also can provide quite a bit of lifegain. He might end up being a 3 of.
Avacyn seems too expensive, cannot block stormbreath, its a nice flyer with vigilance and can provide some defense but in a 3 color deck I don't see how often she would see the field.
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You are underestimating 4/4's on turn 2. Remember we can also play our own polukranos on turn 3 or downfall theres. Outside of suspension field I don't think there is a turn to answer for a turn 2 4/4.
I've seen Herald of Torment in a few lists now and I've never been quite sure on the justification of it. It's either a 3/3 flyer for 3 that drains you every turn in a deck already filled with life payments or it's a +3/+3 + flying for 5 enchantment. I dunno, I kind of feel like in a world of 2 mana 3/3s and 3 mana 4/4s, it's not quite high impact enough. It also only trades evenly with mantis riders.
Speaking of which - flyers.
Junk midrange seems pretty strong but the glaring weakness I feel is it kind of just rolls over and dies to flyers. Abzan charm and utter end are blanks against stormbreath, roc can't block it, mantis rider is basically impossible to race since it has vigilance. Another issue is that in clogged up board states, there isn't much the deck has to break board parity. Nothing can really push through damage since nothing has flying or unblockable, and when it comes to sweepers you only really have drown in sorrow on the low end and then duneblast on the high end.
Trades with mantis riders, has vigilance so you don't even need to expose yourself to swing with it, is an x/4 so escapes lightning strike. It can protect your creatures which are blocking or swinging, and the final ability is just a great mana sink. If they have an overwhelming board presence, well you basically can just fog them every turn since a lot of decks seem to run most creatures of one colour (e.g. hornet queen, polukranos, sagu mauler are all green, mantis riders, stormbreath, sarkhan are all red, fleecemane, siege rhino, anafenza, rakshasa, courser are all green and so on and so forth). It has flying which basically gives it free reign to swing with no blockers, puts your opponent on a four turn clock and basically just breaks board parity.
Disadvantages I see are being triple white, no immediate effect upon entering, exposed to destroy/exile removal (and it's 2WWW so mana-wise it's a pretty even trade if they use a 3 or 4 mana kill spell whereas losing like a fleecemane is just a two-drop eating a big spell) and that it can't protect itself with the first ability so it can be blown out itself if you were to block with it and they pumped their guy.
Whip of Erebos I'm also wondering is if it's worth considering - lifegain to counter the loss of life from the manabase and spells (charm, thoughtseize), whipping rhinos to get the drain effect again and so on and so forth.
I was also thinking sideboarded Duneblasts in grindy creature match ups with clogged board states.
I feel like I'm missing something and these are all terrible ideas, but I'd love some input on it.
About fliers,
That's why I like herald, picking up a siege rhino seems awesome, curving rhino into bestowed herald gives you a 7/8 flier, that sounds insane. It works well with a lot of our guys and kind of gives you what g/w agro had last season with Ajani, caller of the pride.
Stormbreath can be an issue but it is a 5 drop and it is just a 4/4 so it's easy to race, they might not even be able to attack with it by the time they cast it since we have a lot of early beaters. We also play 4 downfalls and stormbreath generally comes out of ramp decks, who only rely on a few real threats.
Mantis rider is very easy to race everything we have can attack into it and aside from courser everything will either trade with it or eat it, the problem is their burn spells.
If you are looking to break board stalls, then wingmate roc, herald, and cards like bow of nylea are your answers.
Whip is cool, but sorin is a lot better for this deck since he pumps up our guys, and makes guys himself. He puts the opponent in a very awkward position, because they want to race us, but sorin puts us way ahead in the race and if they want to continue trying to race us, they have to kill him first. So he not only gains us life from our attacks but he "gains us life" from their attacks since they need to kill him first. We also have rhinos and wingmates to gain life. I haven't died to my manabase yet (6 painlands, 3 fetches (now 4 fetches)).
We do have access to end hostilities and I actually got to use it to great effect in an scg iq yesterday. I'm playing 2 in my board.
On avacyn,
She's ok, but she will die to stoke and sarkhan, which isn't a nail in her coffin by any means. The big question is, is she better than wingmate roc? I don't think she is, wingmate gives us 2 bodies, six power, and gains us life. Wingmate also promotes our overall strategy of being an aggressive midrange deck that is hard to race, since it gives us a chump blocker so we can keep attacking.
As you said, she's also triple white, which is hard to get a lot of the time.
Private Mod Note
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I don't see any reason why we are running so many pain lands in so many lists. With the addition of fetchlands we should be embracing basics more. Just because a fetch is not in our colors doesn't mean we cannot run it. For example: Polluted Delta and Bloodstained Mire both fetch for a swamp or tap for black with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. On top of that the added utility of being able to "reset" the top of your deck with Courser of Kruphix for a mere 1 life is fantastic. It boggles my mind to see upwards of 5-10 pain lands (counting Mana Confluence) in some lists. In my opinion (supported by practice) is that you can have a stable mana base with 0-4 pain lands, 3-6 fetch lands, 2-5 scry/life gain lands, 1-4 Tri Lands and 7-10 Basic Lands.
I take little to no damage from my mana base, I generally will have all 3 colors by no later then turn 4. I'm heavier on the black side with white being a splash for some key cards like Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Utter End so my mana reflects that. I do have to mulligan due to wrong mana on occasion but no more then any other deck has to mulligan. To me just throwing a bunch of pain lands and calling it good is both sloppy and dangerous.
Currently building... XGRUrzaTron in Modern, WUBEsper Control in Modern, BGRJund in Modern, UWRThopter Miracles in Legacy, BUWGDelver-Tog in Legacy (My guilty pleasure)
I see where you are coming from. I really do like that mana base. It's making me reconsider mine, the painlands do make me uncomfortable but with fetches and Urborg we should be able to run more basics. Good post
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Decks
Modern BGR Jund RGB BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB BWGAbzan CompanyGWB
Easily. Courser is like scrying so we should use triple land over double if they come into play tapped. And pain lands are awesome. You stop taking damage from them after the initial rush early, unlike mana confluence.
Easily. Courser is like scrying so we should use triple land over double if they come into play tapped. And pain lands are awesome. You stop taking damage from them after the initial rush early, unlike mana confluence.
I agree with both of you guys. As much as I hate to use it over scry lands we probably need 4 trilands especially if we run fleecemane and deathdealer. I also really like painlands, we need duals that come in untapped, I would like to only play 4 if it can be helped, but I think we might need more.
How many tapped lands (scry and tri) do you guys think we should run? I ran 9 at the iq without too many problems.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Been thinking about that. I feel that more than 8 could end up being troublesome even though it didn't affect you too much this weekend. 3 Scry lands and 4 Trilands? then 4-6 Painlands 4-6 Fetches then basics and an Urborg? so something like
I'm still not into caryatid, it's not really a good blocker either since it can't handle most 3+ drops or even a lot of 2 drops. It's essentially just a land that cost 2 mana to play. My version of the deck only has roc's, sorin, and rhino to ramp into anyway so caryatid isn't a huge loss. Also I'm cutting brimaz, so the deck now is essentially g/b splashing white for fleecemane, charm, rhino, sorin , and rocs. The only card that has double white costs in there are the rocs and they are a turn 5 play. I'd rather start throwing out threats turn 2 than ramping.
Courser on the other hand I will be keeping for the time being, I just mentioned him in that post because he's on my watch list
I think silence the believers is a great option, especially in grindy matchups. There will be times where you will be at 7 lands and they have two big creatures. Even if you don't get the 2-1 it's still a fine card without the strive.
On stain the mind, what would you name? I'm not sure why you want it.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Could you post an updated decklist?
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
I'm probably going to play something like this in the next tournament (scg super iq on Saturday)
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Silence
3 caves of koilos
3 llanowar wastes
1 sandsteppe citadel
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 windswept heath
3 forest
2 plains
Creatures: 20
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 rakshasa deathdealer
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 boon satyr
4 Siege Rhino
3 Wingmate Roc
3 Thoughtseize
2 murderous cut
3 Abzan Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Drown in sorrow
2 bow of nylea
3 brain maggot
2 end hostilities
2 anafenza, the foremost
1 thoughtseize
2 reclamation sage
I'm not sure if the manabase is correct, I could probably cut a cave for either a llanowar wastes, sandsteppe citadel, or jungle hollow. I also cut a plains for another windswept heath.
I'm also not sure if I want 2 murderous cut, I could cut one for a 3rd boon satyr, I could also cut a courser for a 3rd satyr.
Something else that gains a lot of value by playing boon satyrs is heir of the wilds, maybe it has a place in here. It could also be right to play 4 deathdealers with the 4 lions to ensure that I can get a powerful 2 drop in play on turn 2, just goldfishing this list, it sucks if I don't get one of them turn 2 (it always sucks if you don't get a 2 drop in this deck though).
Comparing my list to the abzan list that lost to the 1st place jeskai deck I notice that he just has the one sorin in the board, he has 11 tapped lands (I have 9) and none of his tapped lands are temples. He also has pridemate as his turn 2 aggressive threat, and I now have lions and deathdealers as turn 2 aggressive threats, both of which are better on their own than the pridemate is. he also has 4 (!) mana confluence, which is way, way, wayyyyy too many.
I think it's close game 1, it depends on the amount of pain lands both decks get, and if you can hit sorin or chain rhinos/rocs or not.
Post board I honestly like my deck more, not trying to sound conceded or anything. I have 3 brain maggot and a thoughtseize, which is all great for taking away 4 damage burn spells, I've got 2 bows, 3 sorin, 4 rhinos, and 3 rocs for lifegain, I think I could take apart his hand and push him on the backfoot with early aggressive threats which would allow me to take over the game with my lifegain spells. I haven't tested against this exact jeskai list though and I might be missing something.
Bottom line: I ain't shook
EDIT: lol I was on round 9 in the coverage (watching the vod) and it looks like round 10 is jeskai against abzan again, so I'll have to see how this plays out.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Silence
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Mana Confluence
1 Forest
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
1 Hornet Queen
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Abzan Charm
2 Chord of Calling
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Disowned Ancestor
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Utter End
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Duneblast
Yes, the mana base is pretty klunky, but the Bile Blights and Drown in Sorrow give me game against aggro game 1 and the mana requirements of the deck are too extreme for the fetches to be very good in it. Last standard taught us the power of scrylands and I decided to adapt my deck to survive aggro through scrylands instead of ditching them. There are some matchups where Drown in Sorrow isn't great, but it's rarely completely dead and where it's good, it's game winning. I was expecting the meta to be good for it and it was great every match I played Friday. Most people play it for the aggro decks, but it's also great against ramp decks that overload on mana dorks and situationly good against opposing Elspeths, Hornet queen, and Empty the Pitts. Chord is awesome with Elspeth tokens and even though I don't play a toolbox, the creatures I do play are good enough that being able to choose between them for the situation. I've even Chorded for a caryatid off of a courser turn 4 so I could play a turn 5 elspeth. The Glut of 3 mana spells is a potenial problem, but they're all powerful enough to make up for it and the scrylands help there as well.
Modern: UW Spirits
The idea behind empty the pits was that I would use it against decks with a lot of removal to have a "I win" card. I figured we'd be trading resources a ton and probably get into some sort of top deck war, and I'd be able to empty for like x=5-8 (i'm talking about the late game here). You could also tutor for it with Liliana. I took it out though because, at least how it appears now, there aren't any decks that are just a pile of removal spells and a few wincon's, even then we are probably too aggressive for them/our threats are too resilient for them to make it to the long game. So now I'm looking at cards to break board stalls instead, like bow of nylea and boon satyr.
Brain maggot seems better than despise to me, not just because it has a body, but because it can take anything. And because the opponent can get their card back, they'll be incentivized to kill it. For example you cast brain maggot and see...
caryatid, courser, xenagos, genesis hydra, lightning strike 2 lands and they just have a land in play (assuming you are on the play, this is just an example).
If you take the xenagos, now they have to decide between playing the caryatid or kill the maggot then you untap and play a deathdealer/lion that they now don't have a removal spell for, and they are now a turn behind where they wanted to be because they don't have ramp. You could also just take the caryatid, then use him for a chump attack turn 5 for a wingmate because who cares if they get their caryatid back at that point?
Maggot is also seemingly better because against a deck like the jeskai deck it can take a burn spell and trigger raid later on.
You're not trying to actually take away a card permanently, just gain enough tempo to help push them on the backfoot if that makes any sense, it's also never really dead because it's at least a body that can chump block/attack, whereas you can just have a dead card in your hand if you drew despise turn 5 or 6.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I like this. I'll try this but with Herald of Torments over the Wingmates, and a couple Whips and a single Chord instead of Sorin, mostly for budget reasons... as I don't have any Sorins.
Whipping Rhinos in for the ETB, Lifelink, and Trample has been pretty effective in my own testing, and I'm a Herald of Torment junkie from playing B/W Constellation. Grants Evasion and still leaves you with a 3/3 Flyer should the bestow target eat removal... that and I find flying Rhinos hilarious.
That's fair I think it's close between the two but I like maggots more.
On banishing light,
It does good stuff, but if its removed, you will be in trouble (probably...)
Seriously though, this meta seems pretty well setup to deal with them, there's quite a few g/x midrange/devotion/whatever decks that have chord of calling and one reclamation sage in their maindeck. I think it's risky. Downfall pretty much deals with whatever we need to deal with, but if you want something else to kill anything then utter end is probably a better choice, but I'm not sure you even need it, if you are being aggressive.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I'm with you on Caryatid. I just feel like this deck should be playing threats and be able to protect them. Caryatid (and Courser) doesn't fit the bill. I'm going to lower my curve and see how it plays out. Probably something like this
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Windswept Heath
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of Silence
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Rakshaza Deathdealer
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Siege Rhino
Planeswalkers 4
4x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells 14
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
2x Bile Blight
3x Abzan Charm
1x Utter End
2x Caves of Koilos
3x Forest
2x Llanowar Wastes
2x Plains
3x Sandsteppe Citadel
2x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Plenty
2x Temple of Silence
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Fleecemane Lion
2x Herald of Torment
4x Rakshasa Deathdealer
4x Siege Rhino
2x Wingmate Roc
Instant (10)
4x Abzan Charm
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Utter End
Planeswalker (2)
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Thoughtseize
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Bile Blight
2x Brain Maggot
2x Deicide
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Liliana Vess
3x Nyx-Fleece Ram
1x Utter End
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
I like this list, the only things I don't like are anafenza in the main since I think it will get outclassed a lot of the time (same problem with brimaz) I think it should be a bestow creature so you can make your creatures bigger, which helps break board stalls if one occurs, and both herald and satyr are fine turn 3 threats as well.
I also don't like the one swamp, it's not fetchable, and it doesn't help you much if you are trying to go fleecemane into courser. You could say the same about plains if you want to go deathdealer into courser, but the plains being fetchable gives it more value. It might be better served as a caves of koilos.
I'm also not a fan of bile blight, but it's fine.
I like herald in here a lot, it might be better than boon satyr since it gives flying. I need to test the differences between those two cards. It's very likely it's better though. I do think you want 25 lands though to hit your rocs on curve.
I really like 4 deathdealers in both of these lists, and that's what I'm going to do. It could be awkward to have 2 out, but it really increases the chances of having a strong turn 2 play. Temple of plenty is also an interesting addition in the manabase. It could be right to play 4 of them and 4 citadels with 3 of each pain to consistently hit deathdealer or fleecemane on turn 2. The only thing is that you will have more opportunity to get fleecemane on turn 2 than deathdealer because you have windswept heath and only 6 painlands. It's going to be hard to build the right manabase for this deck, but I think we are getting closer. I do think that the manabase is the biggest thing we have to sort out though.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Agreed about the mana base. I'm hoping Urborg can help. Im also considering dropping one Heath for just a plains because having 4 fetchlands to fetch 5 lands seems a little much. Mana Confluence is also a thing, but from watching some of the SCG coverage they seemed to be hurting more than helping, at least you can tap a painland for colorless if you need to. I think I'll put a 3rd LLanowar waste in there and drop an Abzan Charm.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
Also, if you are running mostly 3 drops, run elvish mystics, a 4/4 on turn 2 is very hard to deal with. Same with a 3/4 that makes 1/1's.
If you are looking to drop 4 drops (which is the route I am going I think), keep caryatids and add polukranos as a couple of along with siege rhino. Make the most of your mana.
Mana Confluence is an amazing card in a 3 color set... the problem was too many people were running them as 4 of's. Taking it out I think will really hurt your chances (especially all these people thinking caryatid should leave) of casting your siege rhino.
It gets outclassed because the meta is full of ramp decks right now. You cast anafenza turn 3, they cast polukranos turn 3 then follow it up with an active nylea, or just kill it with the polukranos, sure we can remove these threats, but you need to keep in mind what the best thing your opponent's could be playing against you and how you react to them in your worst case scenario. It's not fast enough to get under the fatties that these decks play and it can't attack into them, that's why siege rhino and wingmate are so good rhino does something other than just attack and wingmates can fly over. In almost every game anafenza will just be a vanilla 4/4 for 3, while that's a really good rate, it's not good right now. After these ramp decks leave the meta it will be a solid maindeck card (and it's a solid sideboard card now).
If we add in mystics and keep caryatids then we are playing the same game as the devotion decks, and honestly, they do it better. They can take advantage of nykthos, which lets them play things like hornet queen and makes their polukranos better than ours. I think the power of this color combo comes from our early threats, we don't really have many fatties to ramp out aside from rhino and wingmate (who doesn't work well with ramping anyway). Deathdealer and fleecemane are good manasinks if you get flooded.
Mana confluence is a really bad choice, the fixing is good enough without it, I don't know if you watched the scg tournament on Saturday, but a lot of people were dying to their manabase because of that card.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Avacyn seems too expensive, cannot block stormbreath, its a nice flyer with vigilance and can provide some defense but in a 3 color deck I don't see how often she would see the field.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
About fliers,
That's why I like herald, picking up a siege rhino seems awesome, curving rhino into bestowed herald gives you a 7/8 flier, that sounds insane. It works well with a lot of our guys and kind of gives you what g/w agro had last season with Ajani, caller of the pride.
Stormbreath can be an issue but it is a 5 drop and it is just a 4/4 so it's easy to race, they might not even be able to attack with it by the time they cast it since we have a lot of early beaters. We also play 4 downfalls and stormbreath generally comes out of ramp decks, who only rely on a few real threats.
Mantis rider is very easy to race everything we have can attack into it and aside from courser everything will either trade with it or eat it, the problem is their burn spells.
If you are looking to break board stalls, then wingmate roc, herald, and cards like bow of nylea are your answers.
Whip is cool, but sorin is a lot better for this deck since he pumps up our guys, and makes guys himself. He puts the opponent in a very awkward position, because they want to race us, but sorin puts us way ahead in the race and if they want to continue trying to race us, they have to kill him first. So he not only gains us life from our attacks but he "gains us life" from their attacks since they need to kill him first. We also have rhinos and wingmates to gain life. I haven't died to my manabase yet (6 painlands, 3 fetches (now 4 fetches)).
We do have access to end hostilities and I actually got to use it to great effect in an scg iq yesterday. I'm playing 2 in my board.
On avacyn,
She's ok, but she will die to stoke and sarkhan, which isn't a nail in her coffin by any means. The big question is, is she better than wingmate roc? I don't think she is, wingmate gives us 2 bodies, six power, and gains us life. Wingmate also promotes our overall strategy of being an aggressive midrange deck that is hard to race, since it gives us a chump blocker so we can keep attacking.
As you said, she's also triple white, which is hard to get a lot of the time.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
For reference my mana base currently being used.
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Silence
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I take little to no damage from my mana base, I generally will have all 3 colors by no later then turn 4. I'm heavier on the black side with white being a splash for some key cards like Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Utter End so my mana reflects that. I do have to mulligan due to wrong mana on occasion but no more then any other deck has to mulligan. To me just throwing a bunch of pain lands and calling it good is both sloppy and dangerous.
GWBAbzan Midrange in standard.
XRU Affinity in Modern
Currently building...
XGRUrzaTron in Modern, WUBEsper Control in Modern, BGRJund in Modern, UWRThopter Miracles in Legacy, BUWGDelver-Tog in Legacy (My guilty pleasure)
Trade list is coming soon.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
Easily. Courser is like scrying so we should use triple land over double if they come into play tapped. And pain lands are awesome. You stop taking damage from them after the initial rush early, unlike mana confluence.
I agree with both of you guys. As much as I hate to use it over scry lands we probably need 4 trilands especially if we run fleecemane and deathdealer. I also really like painlands, we need duals that come in untapped, I would like to only play 4 if it can be helped, but I think we might need more.
How many tapped lands (scry and tri) do you guys think we should run? I ran 9 at the iq without too many problems.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G